How strong of a case does Dirk have to be placed ahead of Bird, all-time?

[iggymcfrack]

Of course and overall I'd take Bird as a better player in his prime. Scoring isn't debatable though, Dirk was all-time great scorer and Bird was "just" very good.

Scoring isn't debatable? That is a ridiculous statement. In Dirk's 2 best playoff runs ('11 and '06), he scored 27 ppg at 46% FG and 27 ppg at 48% FG. For Bird ('84 and '86), it's 27ppg at 52% FG and 25 ppg at 51% FG. Bird's injuries late in his career mess with his career averages. He is every bit as good of a scorer as Dirk in his prime. I already admitted that you can argue that Dirk has a better career, but that's not what I was arguing. I'm arguing Bird is higher on the AT list on the basis of an overall peak that's a tier higher (IMO)

FG% is a terrible tool here. It treats threes the same as twos ignores free throws (drawn and accuracy) entirely. And then you are ignoring league norms as well. Nor too, is it clear why just two years have been chosen, and why Bird gets his two best years by the chosen metric, whilst Nowitzki gets his fourth and seventh. Then too the assertion that late career injuries "mess with his averages" isn't really borne out (through '88 his playoff fg% is .476 even through '87 it's .479 versus a full career .472).

A look at their rTS% over their playoff career (perhaps year-by-year, allowing for granular inspection if so desired, and then a weighted average) would give a much more accurate picture.

Then too, for ppg there's no attempt to account for differences in pace.

If one concludes after looking at these that there is a case for Bird over Nowitzki as a scorer then that's okay and of course up to them, but it's hard to leave arguing for Bird using the tools offered here.

Thank you. Nothing like seeing FG% as a red flag that someone’s making a disingenuous argument. Since the argument would be that maybe Bird was a better scorer at peak, let’s look at a 4 year peak so we get those ‘84 and ‘86 seasons involved but don’t use them as the only endpoints.

Bird (1984-1987 playoffs): 30.7 PP100 on .582 TS%
Dirk (2008-2011 playoffs): 37.6 PP100 on .617 TS%

Seems like a pretty clear win for Dirk to me. League average TS% was .543 in 1984 and .538 in 1987. So right around .540 for Bird’s 4 year prime. In 2008, it was .540 and in 2011 it was .541. So again, pretty much exactly the same. The only era effect that needed correction was the pace. Dirk’s peak playoff scoring was actually closer to Jordan than Bird was to him. It’s a significant gap.

[Eglend]

I mean, your rebounding point isn't true at all. Let's look at stats:

Regular Season

Bird (1980-90) - 12.6 PER100, 14.7 TRB%
Dirk (2001-11) - 12.4 PER100, 13.4 TRB%

Playoffs

Bird (1980-90) - 12.3 PER100, 14.2 TRB%
Dirk (2001-11) - 13.3 PER100, 14.4 TRB%

Bird also played a lot as a SF and he played with good rebounders around him. In fact I'd say that stats tell us that Bird is at least as good rebounder as Dirk.

About bolded part - do you really believe that Bird wouldn't be able to play at PF full-time and have similar spacing effect? It's strange because Bird is probably the first player you can think of that could replace Dirk's role.

Let's just look at defensive rebounds since Dirk plays a specific role which minimizes his chances for offensive rebounds.

Regular Season

Dirk: 10.1 PER100, 21.9 DRB%

Bird: 10.0 PER100, 22.4 DRB%

Playoffs

Dirk: 11.1 PER100, 24.4 DRB%

Bird: 9.5 PER100, 21.4 DRB%

I would certainly say that Dirk was the better defensive rebounder, and considering Dirk's role to spread the floor and pull a big away from the basket, and to be the first man back on defense minimized his chances for offensive rebounding, I would say that Dirk was the better rebounder period.

I mean, the stats you posted don't make Dirk better at all. He Rebounded a bit better in playoffs but the difference is small. Besides, Bird played mostly at SF, McHale and Parish were bigs for the Celtics. That alone hurt Bird's defensive rebounding at least as much as Dirk's role hurts his offensive rebounding.

Also, let's not act like Bird didn't run on perimeter and spread the floor on offense.

A 3% DRB% difference is small? We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Bird playing at SF back in the 80s hurt his defensive rebounding some yes, but not anywhere close to what Dirk's role did to his offensive rebounds. Dirk also played with some strong rebounders for their positions in Marion and Kidd, I don't think that the difference is what you are making it out to be.

[Jaqua92]

No.

Bird is a top 5 player all time. Get a grip guys lol

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LOL! 23 players have a better peak PER which has to be one of the better metrics for him as he’s a so-so defender with so-so longevity who fell off in the postseason. In what world does he have any case over LeBron, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, or Hakeem?

I hear you, but using one specific context based statistics to validate a stance is not how you use statistics in the real world of research and statistics...speaking as someone who has worked around them.

I can say LOL to this as well. I do not waiver from my stance, but I will disregard your ignorant use of statistics from a methodological point of view, and rhetorically echo my "Bird is a top 5 player all time..get a grip" comment

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[1993Playoffs]

LMAO @ Bird being a top 5 player of all time.

he's not even close lol

[Ballerhogger]

He’s still good mile and half away from bird .

[Brooklyn_Ball33]

:noway:

Bird comfortably. No way Dirk is a better rebounder than Bird.....in fact what is Dirk better at you have to ask?

Sent from my SM-G960F using RealGM mobile app

Scoring and turnover economy. Some may argue about shooting and defense, but they are not clear and you can argue otherwise.

Dirk is not a better scorer than Bird. Bird could have averaged ~30 ppg annually on a team that needed it on good percentages.

[70sFan]

:noway:

Bird comfortably. No way Dirk is a better rebounder than Bird.....in fact what is Dirk better at you have to ask?

Sent from my SM-G960F using RealGM mobile app

Scoring and turnover economy. Some may argue about shooting and defense, but they are not clear and you can argue otherwise.

Dirk is not a better scorer than Bird. Bird could have averaged ~30 ppg annually on a team that needed it on good percentages.

Look at posts above, Bird couldn't sustain his RS scoring numbers in playoffs for all but 3 PS runs. Dirk had only one terrible performance in his prime.

[Pg81]

I mean, your rebounding point isn't true at all. Let's look at stats:

Regular Season

Bird (1980-90) - 12.6 PER100, 14.7 TRB%
Dirk (2001-11) - 12.4 PER100, 13.4 TRB%

Playoffs

Bird (1980-90) - 12.3 PER100, 14.2 TRB%
Dirk (2001-11) - 13.3 PER100, 14.4 TRB%

Bird also played a lot as a SF and he played with good rebounders around him. In fact I'd say that stats tell us that Bird is at least as good rebounder as Dirk.

About bolded part - do you really believe that Bird wouldn't be able to play at PF full-time and have similar spacing effect? It's strange because Bird is probably the first player you can think of that could replace Dirk's role.

Let's just look at defensive rebounds since Dirk plays a specific role which minimizes his chances for offensive rebounds.

Regular Season

Dirk: 10.1 PER100, 21.9 DRB%

Bird: 10.0 PER100, 22.4 DRB%

Playoffs

Dirk: 11.1 PER100, 24.4 DRB%

Bird: 9.5 PER100, 21.4 DRB%

I would certainly say that Dirk was the better defensive rebounder, and considering Dirk's role to spread the floor and pull a big away from the basket, and to be the first man back on defense minimized his chances for offensive rebounding, I would say that Dirk was the better rebounder period.

I mean, the stats you posted don't make Dirk better at all. He Rebounded a bit better in playoffs but the difference is small. Besides, Bird played mostly at SF, McHale and Parish were bigs for the Celtics. That alone hurt Bird's defensive rebounding at least as much as Dirk's role hurts his offensive rebounding.

Also, let's not act like Bird didn't run on perimeter and spread the floor on offense.

How exactly is it hurting Bird when he was not battling great rebounders defensively, or only very rarely? The best rebounders are at C and PF mostly and that is what Dirk was battling usually. He was taller than Bird with comparable athleticism and usually in the top 10 in the league for rebounding during post season, not far behind against ATG rebounders like KG and TD. There really is to me no question that he was the better rebounder. I mean I remember that just recently someone wrote on GD that TD "destroyed" Dirk in 2003, even though Dirk did not even play 3 games due to getting injured in game 3. Until then he had grabbed 33 defensive rebounds, Timmy had 72 by the end of the series. Extrapolating this and one can very easily see that Dirk was on pace to grab almost as many rebounds as TD did in one of his most remarkable post season runs. And this was not an outlier either, because when he met TD agian in 2006 he outrebounded him 13 per game to 12 per game and now we are talking total rebounds per game even. DRB% is even more one sided, with Dirk having 34.8% and Duncan at 25.6%. This is somewhat alleviated by the fact that TD played about 3 minutes less per game but that hardly matters in the end.
So to summarize in games where he went up against all time great rebounders for at least his era he was almost as good as them, in other words Dirk was an elite rebounder. It does not show up as much during the regular season because Dirk was very careful not to foul out or suffer major injuries because his team time and again crumbled whenever he was out, even in 2011 when it was arguably his best team which still went 2-7 during the 9 games he had to watch from the bench. There is no doubt that Dirk could have amassed even better regular season stats if not for that problem that he was basically too unique for his own good and no one could adequately replace him when he was on the bench and the Mavs had tried many times with players like van Horn and Antoine Walker, who was a disaster, but it never worked out in the slightest.

[Ballerhogger]

With dirk going pass wilt all time scoring list I can see receny bias in this thread a tad I think the poll shows good reflection of reality lol

[Pg81]

With dirk going pass wilt all time scoring list I can see receny bias in this thread a tad I think the poll shows good reflection of reality lol

I do not see any recency bias considering that even hardcore Dirk fans like me voted for Bird, and usually have him ahead of Dirk as well, though more due to the thread title than due to the actual discussion.

[kendogg]

Scoring isn't debatable? That is a ridiculous statement. In Dirk's 2 best playoff runs ('11 and '06), he scored 27 ppg at 46% FG and 27 ppg at 48% FG. For Bird ('84 and '86), it's 27ppg at 52% FG and 25 ppg at 51% FG. Bird's injuries late in his career mess with his career averages. He is every bit as good of a scorer as Dirk in his prime. I already admitted that you can argue that Dirk has a better career, but that's not what I was arguing. I'm arguing Bird is higher on the AT list on the basis of an overall peak that's a tier higher (IMO)

FG% is a terrible tool here. It treats threes the same as twos ignores free throws (drawn and accuracy) entirely. And then you are ignoring league norms as well. Nor too, is it clear why just two years have been chosen, and why Bird gets his two best years by the chosen metric, whilst Nowitzki gets his fourth and seventh. Then too the assertion that late career injuries "mess with his averages" isn't really borne out (through '88 his playoff fg% is .476 even through '87 it's .479 versus a full career .472).

A look at their rTS% over their playoff career (perhaps year-by-year, allowing for granular inspection if so desired, and then a weighted average) would give a much more accurate picture.

Then too, for ppg there's no attempt to account for differences in pace.

If one concludes after looking at these that there is a case for Bird over Nowitzki as a scorer then that's okay and of course up to them, but it's hard to leave arguing for Bird using the tools offered here.

Thank you. Nothing like seeing FG% as a red flag that someone’s making a disingenuous argument. Since the argument would be that maybe Bird was a better scorer at peak, let’s look at a 4 year peak so we get those ‘84 and ‘86 seasons involved but don’t use them as the only endpoints.

Bird (1984-1987 playoffs): 30.7 PP100 on .582 TS%
Dirk (2008-2011 playoffs): 37.6 PP100 on .617 TS%

Seems like a pretty clear win for Dirk to me. League average TS% was .543 in 1984 and .538 in 1987. So right around .540 for Bird’s 4 year prime. In 2008, it was .540 and in 2011 it was .541. So again, pretty much exactly the same. The only era effect that needed correction was the pace. Dirk’s peak playoff scoring was actually closer to Jordan than Bird was to him. It’s a significant gap.

Your stats are just as cherry-picked as mine. Any stats can be argued to be cherry picked because there is no perfect stat.

My point that Bird's peak is as good as Dirk's scoring wise is still true. You are talking about extended peak, which is a valid argument, but does not refute my argument. I don't value longevity as much in all-time lists as long as they've had at least a few MVP level seasons. Bird was in my book the best player in the league in the 80's until his back injuries gave Magic/Jordan the edge in the late 80's. I think you can also argue peak Bird is as good as Jordan, which is what I am arguing. All-time lists are subjective, and we use stats and breakdowns of player skillsets to make our cases.

[iggymcfrack]

FG% is a terrible tool here. It treats threes the same as twos ignores free throws (drawn and accuracy) entirely. And then you are ignoring league norms as well. Nor too, is it clear why just two years have been chosen, and why Bird gets his two best years by the chosen metric, whilst Nowitzki gets his fourth and seventh. Then too the assertion that late career injuries "mess with his averages" isn't really borne out (through '88 his playoff fg% is .476 even through '87 it's .479 versus a full career .472).

A look at their rTS% over their playoff career (perhaps year-by-year, allowing for granular inspection if so desired, and then a weighted average) would give a much more accurate picture.

Then too, for ppg there's no attempt to account for differences in pace.

If one concludes after looking at these that there is a case for Bird over Nowitzki as a scorer then that's okay and of course up to them, but it's hard to leave arguing for Bird using the tools offered here.

Thank you. Nothing like seeing FG% as a red flag that someone’s making a disingenuous argument. Since the argument would be that maybe Bird was a better scorer at peak, let’s look at a 4 year peak so we get those ‘84 and ‘86 seasons involved but don’t use them as the only endpoints.

Bird (1984-1987 playoffs): 30.7 PP100 on .582 TS%
Dirk (2008-2011 playoffs): 37.6 PP100 on .617 TS%

Seems like a pretty clear win for Dirk to me. League average TS% was .543 in 1984 and .538 in 1987. So right around .540 for Bird’s 4 year prime. In 2008, it was .540 and in 2011 it was .541. So again, pretty much exactly the same. The only era effect that needed correction was the pace. Dirk’s peak playoff scoring was actually closer to Jordan than Bird was to him. It’s a significant gap.

Your stats are just as cherry-picked as mine. Any stats can be argued to be cherry picked because there is no perfect stat.

My point that Bird's peak is as good as Dirk's scoring wise is still true. You are talking about extended peak, which is a valid argument, but does not refute my argument. I don't value longevity as much in all-time lists as long as they've had at least a few MVP level seasons. Bird was in my book the best player in the league in the 80's until his back injuries gave Magic/Jordan the edge in the late 80's. I think you can also argue peak Bird is as good as Jordan, which is what I am arguing. All-time lists are subjective, and we use stats and breakdowns of player skillsets to make our cases.

It’s not cherry picked though. You can use 1-year peak, 2-year peak, 3-year peak, 4-year peak, 5-year peak, 6-year peak, 7-year peak, all the way up to as many years as Bird was in the league. Dirk’s still gonna score more points per possession on better efficiency. That makes him an objectively better scorer. There are some things that are more subjective, say defense or passing ability. If you’re just looking at scoring though, the guy who puts up more points and needs less shots for each point despite playing in a tougher era is going to he the better scorer. It’s that simple. You can do the thing the Kobe fans do, and put your hands over your ears and go LALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU, I DON’T CARE WHAT THE NUMBERS SAY! MY GUY’S THE BEST!” but you really don’t have a leg to stand on in an objective discussion with someone else.

[kendogg]

Bird is an ATG level scorer if we are comparing only peaks. He never led the league in scoring and extended peak he is going to fall a few ppg short of some other players, but that is more because he played on one of the best teams in history and had to share the ball. In my opinion the 80's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 90's Bulls and 2010's Warriors are the best teams of all time in terms of talent in the primary rotation. So the fact that he's a couple ppg less on his extended peak is not a significant knock for me. He's a 50-40-90 guy who is as clutch as they come and pretty much A rating in every measurable basketball skill at his peak as well as all the intangibles. Bird can score from anywhere on the floor and get his own shot or play off ball.

[iggymcfrack]

Bird is an ATG level scorer if we are comparing only peaks. He never led the league in scoring and extended peak he is going to fall a few ppg short of some other players, but that is more because he played on one of the best teams in history and had to share the ball. In my opinion the 80's Celtics, 80's Lakers, 90's Bulls and 2010's Warriors are the best teams of all time in terms of talent in the primary rotation. So the fact that he's a couple ppg less on his extended peak is not a significant knock for me. He's a 50-40-90 guy who is as clutch as they come and pretty much A rating in every measurable basketball skill at his peak as well as all the intangibles. Bird can score from anywhere on the floor and get his own shot or play off ball.

If that’s true that Bird only didn’t score more because he had an all-time great cast of teammates around him, then that means his efficiency should get an extra boost due to how high the quality of shots is that he’s getting. The fact that Dirk is still more efficient over any sample of time you want to use despite having to carry an offense is yet more proof that he’s the better scorer.

[LakerLegend]

We gonna compare Jordan to JImmy Butler next?

[Pg81]

We gonna compare Jordan to JImmy Butler next?

Jimmy Butler is an ATG with a legendary playoff run as the man of his team?

[LakerLegend]

We gonna compare Jordan to JImmy Butler next?

Jimmy Butler is an ATG with a legendary playoff run as the man of his team?

Great playoff run, but I wouldn't call it legendary.

Look, I like Dirk but some of the takes on him on rgm now would have gotten people laughed off the board when he was actually in his prime.

Great scorer, but relative to other greats he was always pretty stoppable and he didn't do much outside of scoring.

Not to mention Cuban's pocketbook always ensured he had stacked teams around him.

06 and 07 don't help his case either.

Bird on the other hand is one of the all-time icons of the sport. At his peak he easily has a top 5 case as many during his prime claimed and his all-around game blows Dirk out of the water.

There's a big enough gap between them where a few extra seasons of averaging less than 20 points a game doesn't make this an argument.

[Pg81]

We gonna compare Jordan to JImmy Butler next?

Jimmy Butler is an ATG with a legendary playoff run as the man of his team?

Great playoff run, but I wouldn't call it legendary.

Look, I like Dirk but some of the takes on him on rgm now would have gotten people laughed off the board when he was actually in his prime.

Great scorer, but relative to other greats he was always pretty stoppable and he didn't do much outside of scoring.

Not to mention Cuban's pocketbook always ensured he had stacked teams around him.

06 and 07 don't help his case either.

Bird on the other hand is one of the all-time icons of the sport. At his peak he easily has a top 5 case as many during his prime claimed and his all-around game blows Dirk out of the water.

There's a big enough gap between them where a few extra seasons of averaging less than 20 points a game doesn't make this an argument.

Dirk was pretty close to unstoppable. He had two bad series, most ATGs had at least as many if not more. Bird had series which were worse than 2006 finals and 2007 first round and both are overblown considering that in 2007 he only really had 2 bad games which drag down his averages. Also nice to see that people like you overlook the fact that Dirk led the Mavs to a huge upset of the Spurs in 2006 and that the Mavs had a terrible roster for a 67 win team in 2007.
Dirk was not just a scorer. He was one of the most impactful off-ball players due to the way he distorted defenses, which is only matched/exceeded by Curry, who played a real mean P&P and P&R with his point/shooting guards. His team was never stacked, Cuban way overpaying over the hill and overrated players like Parsons does not make a stacked team.
No his "all around" game does not blow Dirk out of the water. Bird was a better passer and help defender. Dirk was better as a scorer, had more impact off ball, the better man to man defender in the post and the better rebounder.
Seems to me that Bird gets mightily mystified here instead of Dirk getting overrated. Oh and yes, the Mavs 2011 run was legendary, the only other two runs which might have been more legendary was Hakeem's run in '94 and Duncan in 2003.

[kendogg]

Bird's numbers to me are as good as Dirk's scoring wise. Your arguments have not convinced me or pretty much any pro analyst. Despite that, Bird is by far the better passer, hell he's in the running for best passer of all time. Certainly the best at the touch pass. Bird is a better handler, as good of a finisher despite being an inch or two shorter and as good off the ball. Bird is a much better defender. Bird didn't have godlike quickness but he was pretty quick pre-injury and he did have godlike court awareness even on the defensive end. Dirk was a bit heavier at certain times playing Center, but Bird could easily have packed on some pounds to play Center as well. Bird is closer to 6'10 or even 6'11" with modern measurements. Like I said before, Dirk is just Bird Lite. Almost as good but the passing and defense are pretty big differences. You can argue Dirk for the career but peak is clearly Bird.

[Pg81]

Bird's numbers to me are as good as Dirk's scoring wise. Your arguments have not convinced me or pretty much any pro analyst. Despite that, Bird is by far the better passer, hell he's in the running for best passer of all time. Certainly the best at the touch pass. Bird is a better handler, as good of a finisher despite being an inch or two shorter and as good off the ball. Bird is a much better defender. Bird didn't have godlike quickness but he was pretty quick pre-injury and he did have godlike court awareness even on the defensive end. Dirk was a bit heavier at certain times playing Center, but Bird could easily have packed on some pounds to play Center as well. Bird is closer to 6'10 or even 6'11" with modern measurements. Like I said before, Dirk is just Bird Lite. Almost as good but the passing and defense are pretty big differences. You can argue Dirk for the career but peak is clearly Bird.

1.) Speak for yourself.
2.) I could not care less if I convinced you. I am not here to convince anyone, merely voicing my personal biased opinion like everybody else here does.
3.) I voted for Bird and have him a clear notch above Dirk though due to passing and peak only. I also stated that Bird had a better peak and it was never in question nor an argument since we are talking careers here which encompasses far more than that.
4.) I can argue Dirk for scoring, rebounding, post defense, defense warping abilities, consistency in the playoffs and longevity. These two players are not so far apart that you cannot have a discussion or that it is a ridiculous notion. Even 10 spots on the ATG list is in reality a pretty small difference. Often the people one rates close to the spot are usually just as good as the person and people chose one over the other for personal preference. That and media brain washing.
5.) What exactly was different in the 80s that Bird would magically be considered entire 2-3 inchs taller now? Also no, you do not "just" add 25 pounds unless it is pure fat. 25 pounds more is not just "a little heavier" and mostly muscle mass takes a lot of effort and quite some time to put on so no Bird could not have just put on a "little weight" and defend the post as well as Dirk.