Better prime between LeBron and KAJ

[Johnlac1]

Not saying KAJ is greater, but taking longevity into account, KAJ was still fabulous at age 40. In the '87 finals he outplayed 33 yr. old Robert Parish including outscoring him 32-12 in the sixth and deciding game. AJ averaged about 22 ppg and 7 rpg for the series.
It's doubtful Magic Johnson wins his first four titles with AJ. When he left Milwaukee, it took the Bucks five years to recover.

[JordansBulls]

I'd say Lebron as I think 1975 and 1976 hurt Kareem in this case.

[Colbinii]

Kareem was defensive anchor though. His 1971-74 run in Milwaukee is one of the best 4 years ever as a defensive anchor and he was great defender until he got old. No, he wasn't like Duncan or Hakeem but he was far better defender than James or Jordan. It's actually not even close and the gap is clearer than offensive one.

I don't mind anyone taking James here (I may even take him too) but saying "sorry to Kareem fans but they are in class of their own" isn't really fair for Kareem (and others). Jabbar was all-time great offensive player and far better defensive player than either of them. We can argue which combination is more impressive, but we don't have clear choice here.

Is Kareem really “much better defender” than James? Outside of perhaps Pippen,Rodman and maybe one or 2 others, Lebron had more defensive impact than any other wing for a good number of years. He wasn’t good these past couple years, but Kareem fell off massively on d and rebounding in his later years too.

Offense is not close, sorry. Guards/wings have more impact and versatility offensively than big men.
It’s just my opinion, I think they are clearly better in their primes and their numbers and bodies of work certainly backs that up.

Of course he was. Kareem was all-time great defender at his best and he was DPOTY candidate for full decade. Kareem started to decline after 1983 defensively. Meanwhile James was elite defender for 5-6 years (2009-13 and maybe 2016). He has been quite inconsistent throughout whole prime.

I think LeBrons defense from 06-08 gets underrated due to how much we was responsible for offensively [which was literally the entire offense].

I understand that Oscar was past his prime in 73 and 74 [probably 72 as well, though Oscar is still the one guy I need to spend time on] but Kareem had the luxury of elite help on one side of the ball. You can say Lebrons teams were built "around him" [I dont buy it, those Cleveland teams put 0 talent around James] but LeBron had more responsibilities due to the clear, inferior talent as Kareem.

However!!! I think this thread deserves merit, though I lean to LeBron comfortably [albeit close].

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[Colbinii]

Not saying KAJ is greater, but taking longevity into account, KAJ was still fabulous at age 40. In the '87 finals he outplayed 33 yr. old Robert Parish including outscoring him 32-12 in the sixth and deciding game. AJ averaged about 22 ppg and 7 rpg for the series.
It's doubtful Magic Johnson wins his first four titles with AJ. When he left Milwaukee, it took the Bucks five years to recover.

I'm not sure what value Kareem outplaying an older Parish says in a comparison when LeBron was better than Prime Durant/Curry.

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[Blackmill]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

I think that's from the 10/17/70 game. The full game is on youtube and it's pretty fun to watch. It's also one of the best games I've seen Kareem play. There's a lot that didn't make it into the highlight reel, like a few super impressive switches by Kareem in the last half, plus some incredible contests on the perimeter. I don't know if there was ever a season where Kareem was this effective defensively and also as polished offensively as he was in the late 70s, but if so, I imagine it would be among the best ever. His 1977 footage shows flashes of what he did in the early 70s, but he was generally less active, and I can't decide how much was due to a loss of speed and motor versus the Lakers having several abysmal defenders and Kareem having to expend more energy on offense because the Lakers were also bad at getting him the ball in good position.

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

I think that's from the 10/17/70 game. The full game is on youtube and it's pretty fun to watch. It's also one of the best games I've seen Kareem play. There's a lot that didn't make it into the highlight reel, like a few super impressive switches by Kareem in the last half, plus some incredible contests on the perimeter. I don't know if there was ever a season where Kareem was this effective defensively and also as polished offensively as he was in the late 70s, but if so, I imagine it would be among the best ever. His 1977 footage shows flashes of what he did in the early 70s, but he was generally less active, and I can't decide how much was due to a loss of speed and motor versus the Lakers having several abysmal defenders and Kareem having to expend more energy on offense because the Lakers were also bad at getting him the ball in good position.

It's hard to rank 1977 Kareem defense because he had to do everything on the other side of the floor, but he was still very good defender and his mobility regressed only slightly. His teammates were also terrible defensively and he had to help so much in the paint.

The best Kareem defensive games I've seen are all from early 70s (1970-72). He wasn't as polished offensively but he was already one of the best offensive players ever. In 1977 he reached absolute peak though on offense, that may be the best any player played I've ever seen (we don't have enough Russell and Wilt footage though).

[nzahir]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

[70sFan]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

What is so poor about them? Give us examples.

[Johnlac1]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

"Athletes look so slow when going to the basket"

Yeah, because Jokic, Vucevich, Gasol, and a few others are such super athletes. Remember that dunk Jokic made from the foul line last week? Neither do I.

[Johnny Firpo]

KAJ had a 27.7/16.9/5/4/1.5 season. Let that sink in for a moment, and consider that he had a handful of similar statistical years. I'd go with him for sure.

[Johnny Firpo]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

"Athletes look so slow when going to the basket"

Yeah, because Jokic, Vucevich, Gasol, and a few others are such super athletes. Remember that dunk Jokic made from the foul line last week? Neither do I.

You are just mentioning white players, and big men at that, who rarely drive to the basket. Just a silly reply, if you don't mind me saying that.

[70sFan]

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

"Athletes look so slow when going to the basket"

Yeah, because Jokic, Vucevich, Gasol, and a few others are such super athletes. Remember that dunk Jokic made from the foul line last week? Neither do I.

You are just mentioning white players, and big men at that, who rarely drive to the basket. Just a silly reply, if you don't mind me saying that.

Well, but the post before was just as silly to be honest. I mean, this video is from Bucks vs Hawks game. Kareem played against Walt Bellamy (athletic and powerfull center known for his driving and faceup game) along with Lou Hudson, Pete Maravich and Jerry Chambers. Hiw can you say that his opponents were unathletic? I consider something like that close to simple trolling.

[penbeast0]

60s/70s players look a lot less athletic driving to the basket mainly because they had to actually dribble the ball, modern athletics carry and walk pretty much every drive. Doesn't mean modern athletes aren't greater, just that this isn't a reasonable way to compare as there were different rules.

Modern athletes have the benefit of weight work and PEDs, modern footware, and decently padded floors as well. All add to this aura of athleticism as well but the rules changes are the biggest difference maker.

[nzahir]

60s/70s players look a lot less athletic driving to the basket mainly because they had to actually dribble the ball, modern athletics carry and walk pretty much every drive. Doesn't mean modern athletes aren't greater, just that this isn't a reasonable way to compare as there were different rules.

Modern athletes have the benefit of weight work and PEDs, modern footware, and decently padded floors as well. All add to this aura of athleticism as well but the rules changes are the biggest difference maker.

LMFAO

Coming from a mod too. So you're saying players carry or travel EVERY time?

Modern athletes are more athletic on average, its not a question.

Data shows this. Kareem is on another level than these guys by a mile.

[nzahir]

Watch on YouTube

Look at this short clip - Kareem contested everything in that game. James just couldn't have that kind of impact on defensive end.

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

What is so poor about them? Give us examples.

Look at play at 48 seconds. Slow floating pass that should have been picked up (would have in todays league). And then a slow drive to the basket

[70sFan]

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

What is so poor about them? Give us examples.

Look at play at 48 seconds. Slow floating pass that should have been picked up (would have in todays league). And then a slow drive to the basket

I don't see anything wrong with this pass, defense wasn't just as spread around perimeter as it is today, so passes like that are easier to make. But with established defensive position, I don't see why someone from today's league would pick it up.
I don't see anything particulary slow with this drive either. It's not the explosive one we've ever seen but I've seen slower drives in today's league.

[70sFan]

60s/70s players look a lot less athletic driving to the basket mainly because they had to actually dribble the ball, modern athletics carry and walk pretty much every drive. Doesn't mean modern athletes aren't greater, just that this isn't a reasonable way to compare as there were different rules.

Modern athletes have the benefit of weight work and PEDs, modern footware, and decently padded floors as well. All add to this aura of athleticism as well but the rules changes are the biggest difference maker.

LMFAO

Coming from a mod too. So you're saying players carry or travel EVERY time?

Modern athletes are more athletic on average, its not a question.

Data shows this. Kareem is on another level than these guys by a mile.

By 1960s-70s standards? Yeah, most of the times.

[Colbinii]

60s/70s players look a lot less athletic driving to the basket mainly because they had to actually dribble the ball, modern athletics carry and walk pretty much every drive. Doesn't mean modern athletes aren't greater, just that this isn't a reasonable way to compare as there were different rules.

Modern athletes have the benefit of weight work and PEDs, modern footware, and decently padded floors as well. All add to this aura of athleticism as well but the rules changes are the biggest difference maker.

LMFAO

Coming from a mod too. So you're saying players carry or travel EVERY time?

Modern athletes are more athletic on average, its not a question.

Data shows this. Kareem is on another level than these guys by a mile.

Compared to the 70s they do. The point isnt that players travel now [rules allow it] but it is that players now simply couldn't do it in the 1970s. That's simply a fact of the game.

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[Johnlac1]

Competition looks very poor if we are being honest

Athletes look so slow when going to the basket. Kareem was on another level than those guys

This may hurt KAJ's case imo

Look at Lebron from 09 or 2013 or even last years playoff run

"Athletes look so slow when going to the basket"

Yeah, because Jokic, Vucevich, Gasol, and a few others are such super athletes. Remember that dunk Jokic made from the foul line last week? Neither do I.

You are just mentioning white players, and big men at that, who rarely drive to the basket. Just a silly reply, if you don't mind me saying that.

"You are just mentioning white players, and big men at that,"
The players I mentioned are stars/high scorers in the modern, super-athletic NBA. BTW, Jokic scores a lot of points around the basket.
Should I mention Brook Lopez and Zach Randolph? How about Al Jefferson?
The objector to KAJ's dominance was that somehow he starred only because he played in an era with subpar athletes allowing him to dominate.
My point by mentioning Jokic and the others is that a player doesn't have to be a super athlete to be a star. Jokic still looks like he's running in cement and can't jump over a piece of paper.
KAJ was clearly far more athletic than those players. He would kill all centers in the league today like he did back in his prime.

[Johnlac1]

60s/70s players look a lot less athletic driving to the basket mainly because they had to actually dribble the ball, modern athletics carry and walk pretty much every drive. Doesn't mean modern athletes aren't greater, just that this isn't a reasonable way to compare as there were different rules.

Modern athletes have the benefit of weight work and PEDs, modern footware, and decently padded floors as well. All add to this aura of athleticism as well but the rules changes are the biggest difference maker.

LMFAO

Coming from a mod too. So you're saying players carry or travel EVERY time?

Modern athletes are more athletic on average, its not a question.

Data shows this. Kareem is on another level than these guys by a mile.

"Data shows this. Kareem is on another level than these guys by a mile."

He was the best player in the league, but obviously not by a mile. If he was that far ahead, he would have had more than one title before he teamed up with Magic Johnson.