If you’re Milwaukee, do you take peak Garnett, with Kidd/Prunty staff, or Coach Bud?

[ShotCreator]

Garnett is probably the most scaleable GOAT-level player ever, probably the only guy I think could truly make a +8 difference on almost any average team, or at least make the highest possible impact.


Even if you don’t agree, that’s not the point of the thread. If you were GM of Milwaukee, do you take 04 Garnett, or Budenholzer?

I’m confident KG is still making a massive defensive difference and lifting their offensive ceiling.

But Bud made them a +8ish team from -.5

Disregard Lopez.

[Jiminy Glick]

So add Garnett to the current Bucks? You have to go with Garnett.

[ShotCreator]

So add Garnett to the current Bucks? You have to go with Garnett.

You don’t give Bud any credit for the improvement?

[Dr Positivity]

This is clearly Garnett. For one thing coach Bud improvement might not translate to the playoff as well as regular season much like how Thibs had crazy value for Rose era Bulls but not sure it really was as big in playoffs. Secondly the combination of adding Lopez and other players with internal improvement of Giannis, Brogdon, Bledsoe having a great year, etc has a lot to do with their breakout. The Nuggets also had a big jump this year largely just by adding healthier Millsap (not really a bigger impact than getting Lopez) and the rest is just improvement

[iggymcfrack]

Obviously KG, LOL. Good luck finding a defensive scheme that can **** up KG and Giannis both hanging out near the rim.

[ShotCreator]

Obviously KG, LOL. Good luck finding a defensive scheme that can **** up KG and Giannis both hanging out near the rim.

There are better offensive combinations that have been contained, in the past two years alone with more floor space and better fit.

Kidd’s Bucks were +2 defensively.

Buds Bucks have made a massive shift down to -5.

A ridiculous -7 difference with practically the same core minus a couple quarters of Lopez per game.

Lopez was extremely low on DRPM in LA, even with the height prior.

Buds paint stacking strategy is one of the biggest impact shifts we’ve seen IMO. Makes me really buy in to the importance of coaching.

Giannis is never seeing help defenders without a clear, easy skip pass to make anymore so Buds pretty much unleashed him on the league offensively, though he’s still not close to elite IMO.

I think this is a real choice to be made.

I don’t think any Jason Kidd offense will be as resilient as Buds offense due to structure alone.

MIL ran Giannis out of the pick and roll as ball handler a ton more than they do now. And they didn’t have really any clear direction on what they wanted out of possessions. No consistency.

[iggymcfrack]

Obviously KG, LOL. Good luck finding a defensive scheme that can **** up KG and Giannis both hanging out near the rim.

There are better offensive combinations that have been contained, in the past two years alone with more floor space and better fit.

Kidd’s Bucks were +2 defensively.

Buds Bucks have made a massive shift down to -5.

A ridiculous -7 difference with practically the same core minus a couple quarters of Lopez per game.

Lopez was extremely low on DRPM in LA, even with the height prior.

Buds paint stacking strategy is one of the biggest impact shifts we’ve seen IMO. Makes me really buy in to the importance of coaching.

Giannis is never seeing help defenders without a clear, easy skip pass to make anymore so Buds pretty much unleashed him on the league offensively, though he’s still not close to elite IMO.

I think this is a real choice to be made.

I don’t think any Jason Kidd offense will be as resilient as Buds offense due to structure alone.

MIL ran Giannis out of the pick and roll as ball handler a ton more than they do now. And they didn’t have really any clear direction on what they wanted out of possessions. No consistency.

Hey, I certainly agree that Bud’s made a massive positive impact. No argument on that. I thought he’d have a major impact and he’s even exceeded what I could have guessed. I think he should win COTY unanimously. I don’t think he’s more valuable than one of the greatest peak seasons of all-time though. KG led trash to 58 wins and might have knocked off the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers if his second best player Sam Cassell could have stayed healthy.

[sp6r=underrated]

I;m a believer in Bud but this is easily KG. Take KG fire Kidd and find a real coach

[GSP]

I;m a believer in Bud but this is easily KG. Take KG fire Kidd and find a real coach

Im assuming the point of this thread was u have to stick with Kidd/Prunty for the season just to ask how ppl value the vast difference in coaching Vs having an alltimer

[trex_8063]

I don't think there is any coach who is as valuable as a high-tier superstar (particularly one of Kevin Garnett's ilk). I hate to say this [I almost never do], but this Garnett and not close.

More reasonable question might be something like "which would hurt Milwaukee more, losing Bud or Bledsoe?"

[JordansBulls]

I'd take Garnett easily. With him then you can see the Bucks beating the Western team in the finals easily.

[Prokorov]

how is this even remotely a discussion.... of course you take PEAK garnett!

i dont care who is coaching. a top 20 all-time player at his peak trumps any coach. especially a 2 way hallf of famer and GOAT level defensive anchor...

also, FWIW, jason kidd took a washed up about to retire KG to the secnd round of the playoffs in the east

[uberhikari]

Obviously KG, LOL. Good luck finding a defensive scheme that can **** up KG and Giannis both hanging out near the rim.

There are better offensive combinations that have been contained, in the past two years alone with more floor space and better fit.

Kidd’s Bucks were +2 defensively.

Buds Bucks have made a massive shift down to -5.

A ridiculous -7 difference with practically the same core minus a couple quarters of Lopez per game.

Lopez was extremely low on DRPM in LA, even with the height prior.

Buds paint stacking strategy is one of the biggest impact shifts we’ve seen IMO. Makes me really buy in to the importance of coaching.

Giannis is never seeing help defenders without a clear, easy skip pass to make anymore so Buds pretty much unleashed him on the league offensively, though he’s still not close to elite IMO.

I think this is a real choice to be made.

I don’t think any Jason Kidd offense will be as resilient as Buds offense due to structure alone.

MIL ran Giannis out of the pick and roll as ball handler a ton more than they do now. And they didn’t have really any clear direction on what they wanted out of possessions. No consistency.

Hey, I certainly agree that Bud’s made a massive positive impact. No argument on that. I thought he’d have a major impact and he’s even exceeded what I could have guessed. I think he should win COTY unanimously. I don’t think he’s more valuable than one of the greatest peak seasons of all-time though. KG led trash to 58 wins and might have knocked off the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers if his second best player Sam Cassell could have stayed healthy.

No coach in history is more valuable than a top 15 player of all time at their peak. Not Phil Jackson, not Gregg Popovich, not Pat Riley, not Rick Carlisle, etc. Maybe in the NFL where you have 55 players, so no player can really have a disproportionate impact, but not in the NBA when there are only 5 guys on the court at once.

With KG and Giannis on the same team Peter Griffin could coach them to a championship.

[batmana]

I am one of those fans who consider Garnett the most overrated player in an all-time sense and I don't consider him capable of leading a team to a title as the go-to guy.
(Not wanting to start a different discussion but just to clarify, I have him outside of the top 20 all-time.)
That being said, when you make a comparison between a player and a coach, the player usually makes a bigger impact on the team (talking about such a high-usage star-type player and not some pseudo-star or replacement level player of course).

Consider the fact that even a mediocre coach can win a title if he has an all-time great on his team, and putting Garnett on a team with Giannis (MVP caliber himself) becomes too much of an advantage, even if the coach is downgraded from Bud to Kidd. In order to avoid taking any of Bud's contributions as granted, I'll just imagine adding Garnett to last year's Bucks. Giannis was already on his way to perennial super-stardom, the backcourt (Bledsoe + Brogdon) was in position, and Garnett fills a need at a vulnerable position (plus, adding him makes them better suited for Kidd's style of play). So unless Giannis proves to be so good that he can lead a team to a title with (almost) any coach, I have to give an advantage to the team that also has Garnett on the roster.

[E-Balla]

I'm taking Bud. Sure no coach is worth as much as an ATG player (or even really close) but this isn't in a vacuum. Kidd is terrible. What we're comparing isn't the value of Bud vs the value of KG but the value Bud has over Kidd to the value of KG. I highly doubt adding KG to the Bucks would result in a +8 team like the coaching change did.

[moss_is_1]

I am one of those fans who consider Garnett the most overrated player in an all-time sense and I don't consider him capable of leading a team to a title as the go-to guy.
(Not wanting to start a different discussion but just to clarify, I have him outside of the top 20 all-time.)

How do you rate Bill Russell then? Kg wasnt a go to scorer if you wanted a title. Secondary scorer, great passer, all time defender and rebounder.

[Jaqua92]

So why do people consider Garnett a GOAT level player?

He's not. He never was.

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[Jaqua92]

I am one of those fans who consider Garnett the most overrated player in an all-time sense and I don't consider him capable of leading a team to a title as the go-to guy.
(Not wanting to start a different discussion but just to clarify, I have him outside of the top 20 all-time.)
That being said, when you make a comparison between a player and a coach, the player usually makes a bigger impact on the team (talking about such a high-usage star-type player and not some pseudo-star or replacement level player of course).

Consider the fact that even a mediocre coach can win a title if he has an all-time great on his team, and putting Garnett on a team with Giannis (MVP caliber himself) becomes too much of an advantage, even if the coach is downgraded from Bud to Kidd. In order to avoid taking any of Bud's contributions as granted, I'll just imagine adding Garnett to last year's Bucks. Giannis was already on his way to perennial super-stardom, the backcourt (Bledsoe + Brogdon) was in position, and Garnett fills a need at a vulnerable position (plus, adding him makes them better suited for Kidd's style of play). So unless Giannis proves to be so good that he can lead a team to a title with (almost) any coach, I have to give an advantage to the team that also has Garnett on the roster.

Yup. Giannis right now is better than KG ever was. Durant at his best is better too

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[Clyde Frazier]

Is this a serious question? Adding peak garnett to the current bucks easily outwieghs the difference in scheme. They'd figure it out on their own.

[batmana]

I am one of those fans who consider Garnett the most overrated player in an all-time sense and I don't consider him capable of leading a team to a title as the go-to guy.
(Not wanting to start a different discussion but just to clarify, I have him outside of the top 20 all-time.)

How do you rate Bill Russell then? Kg wasnt a go to scorer if you wanted a title. Secondary scorer, great passer, all time defender and rebounder.

Well, Bill Russell is really difficult to rank because his greatness supersedes his rank as a basketball player IMO. In the GOAT rankings I would be comfortable with ranking him top 3 or top 5, considering his entire body of work and his impact on the game. If we were to strictly rank "Best players", without regard to what they achieved, I would probably put him outside of the top 20 (e.g. Shaq is a better player than Russell but Russell is greater and higher up in the GOAT rankings).