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Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 12:47 am
by pandrade83
This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1821547

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open for a day, maybe 2 if it's close.

'09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers - Cleveland has HCA but 1968 rules - no 3 point line, no zones, hand-checking is legal, dribbling rules strictly enforced.

'09 Cavs: Lost to Orlando in ECF (4-2). +4.1 Offense/-5.9 Defense

Ilgauskas
Wallace
James
D. West
M. Williams

Varajeo
Gibson
Sczerbiak

'68 Lakers: Lost to Boston in Finals (4-2). +4.9 Offense/+0.2 Defense
Imhoff
T. Hawkins
Baylor
A. Clark
West

Goodrich
Counts
F. Crawford

Who ya got?

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 1:14 am
by pandrade83
This is one of the more interesting matchups for me. There's 3 big questions that I think will decide this:

1. What can the Lakers do about Lebron?

This is arguably Lebron's peak and he was rather decisively the best player in the league. Given that the Lakers weren't a great defensive squad to begin with, I'm not sure they're going to be able to slow him down even a little bit. Lebron is too big, strong & skilled and should be able to have his way doing whatever he wants.

2. What about the rule changes?

Cleveland is pretty dependent on the 3 ball. They were 4th in 3pr and 2nd in 3 pt % and this coupled with Lebron's brilliance is what made this team strong offensively. Mo Williams is OK without the 3 point line - nothing special in my estimation though. West, Gibson & Wally are just spot up shooters under these conditions - nothing more. Given the setting, I'd consider going big with 2 of Ilguaskas, Wallace & Varaejo on the court flanking Lebron to have fierce rim protection at all times. Cleveland was 2nd in EFG allowed & with a stout defensive front line at all times, they should be able to wreak havoc on the Lakers defensively. This shift, will impact the offense of course and force Lebron to carry a massive load.

3. What about the Laker attack?

The Lakers had the best offense in the league - 1st in efficiency, 1st in EFG, 1st in TS%, 3rd in FTR & (likely) at least good, if not great TOV economy. They had the most "modern" offense in the league with Jerry West providing excellent spacing, Clark being a nice combo guard & Elgin Baylor turning back the clock at age 33 - along with big men who could shoot (by the standards of the day at the least).

Because their attack isn't over-reliant on feeding the post, if Cleveland goes big, it shouldn't impair their ability to do what they want offensively, but 2nd chance points will be scarce and they'll be surrendering an awful lot of height & length to Cleveland.

The pick: In era, I would expect Cleveland's offense to dip to somewhere around that of St Louis (+2.3) just because they have so many guys who provide little value aside from 3's, although Lebron insures a fairly high floor by himself. Scoring on them would be a real chore and in this era, their perimeter players not being strong defenders wouldn't matter as much.

The Lakers would be able to battle valiantly but in the end, I think the Cavs' size & length would be too much of a problem for the Lakers.

Cavs in 7

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 6:56 am
by Dr Positivity
No 3pt line hurts the Cavs as they're built on the tried and tested formula of Lebron and spot up shooters. Not only do Williams, West and Gibson become less valuable offensively in this format, but they also get murdered on defense by West, Clark and Goodrich. The Cavs have excellent size and rebounding but overall I just don't think this team is as good as its point differential as it's largely just Lebron and a bunch of short non defending spot up shooters, some hustle guys an old skilled giant and that's about it, plus their coach sucked. That's why he had the most valuable regular season in history that year. Lakers in 6

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:43 am
by iggymcfrack
Even if you try to prop up the Lakers by making them as dominant as they were in their era AND taking away 3-point line, Cavs are too good defensively. LeBron would completely smother Elgin Baylor and if it comes down to a one-man scoring competition between LeBron and Jerry West, the Cavs should win every time. Cleveland has plenty of size inside so it shouldn’t be a difficult adjustment.

Cavs in 6

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:51 am
by iggymcfrack
Dr Positivity wrote:No 3pt line hurts the Cavs as they're built on the tried and tested formula of Lebron and spot up shooters. Not only do Williams, West and Gibson become less valuable offensively in this format, but they also get murdered on defense by West, Clark and Goodrich. The Cavs have excellent size and rebounding but overall I just don't think this team is as good as its point differential as it's largely just Lebron and a bunch of short non defending spot up shooters, some hustle guys an old skilled giant and that's about it, plus their coach sucked. That's why he had the most valuable regular season in history that year. Lakers in 6


Goodrich played 10 MPG in the playoffs in ‘68. He wasn’t a real factor yet. Also, which one of these 6’2” guards is gonna try to cover LeBron? His positional cross-match in Baylor is known for being a poor defender. You gonna put Tom Hawkins on him? He’d abuse anyone the Lakers send at him and as a team the Cavs were much better defensively.

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 9:36 am
by 70sFan
iggymcfrack wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:No 3pt line hurts the Cavs as they're built on the tried and tested formula of Lebron and spot up shooters. Not only do Williams, West and Gibson become less valuable offensively in this format, but they also get murdered on defense by West, Clark and Goodrich. The Cavs have excellent size and rebounding but overall I just don't think this team is as good as its point differential as it's largely just Lebron and a bunch of short non defending spot up shooters, some hustle guys an old skilled giant and that's about it, plus their coach sucked. That's why he had the most valuable regular season in history that year. Lakers in 6


Goodrich played 10 MPG in the playoffs in ‘68. He wasn’t a real factor yet. Also, which one of these 6’2” guards is gonna try to cover LeBron? His positional cross-match in Baylor is known for being a poor defender. You gonna put Tom Hawkins on him? He’d abuse anyone the Lakers send at him and as a team the Cavs were much better defensively.


I mean, James abused Magic in 2009 and they still won and it's not like they had better options on James than the Lakers. Baylor is actually far from poor defender, Hawkins is decent one. It doesn't matter though, nobody could and would stop 2009 James individually.

On the other hand, Jerry West and Archie Clark (with Goodrich off the bench) would destroy Cavs weak guards. Orlando won every single matchup besides SFs and Lakers have even bigger edge in terms of perimeter talent. Clark was legit offensive threat and West was far better than anything Cavs faced in the playoffs. Of course, Lakers didn't have Howard but their bigs are still better than old Zydrunas and Wallace.

Another important thing is that you have to have James on Baylor, otherwise he'll kill his matchup. Baylor would definitely struggle against James, but defending him will demand tons of energy from LeBron which is not a good thing for the Cavs. That would make him less effective on offense, so it's a good situation for Lakers anyway.

Lakers defense wasn't as good as Orlando, but Magic defense didn't stop James either. How much better would James play than in 2009 ECF? He wouldn't average 50-15-15 against Baylor and Hawkins. Lakers team is far more talented and they will beat them despite James doing his things.

Lakers in 6, only because James is that good.

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 11:50 am
by pandrade83
Nice - we have dissent!

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:02 pm
by penbeast0
70sFan wrote: Of course, Lakers didn't have Howard but their bigs are still better than old Zydrunas and Wallace.


I strongly disagree. Darrell Imhoff was the Michael Olowokandi of his day. He had good size and looked coordinated but he really didn't understand or seem to have a passion for basketball; he was just not a good center. Even 80% of a healthy Ilgauskas was a decent (if not good) NBA center and a better help defender (his main role) than Imhoff ever mastered being. Similarly, Mel Counts was another big guy who never put it together but who kicked around the league for a decade as a reserve without ever making much of a mark. When your main role is help defense, I'd take even the Cavs version of Ben Wallace over him quite easily despite the Fro being arguably the worst offensive player in the history of the league.

Add to that LeBron is the best player on the floor and I'd take Varajao over Tom Hawkins who was a decent jump shooter but didn't get many shots. West and Clark give the Lakers their best shot as the Cavs guards are weak and despite all the hate for Butch Van Breda Koff after the 69 Wilt holdout incident, with the 68 personnel, he was a candidate for coach of the year for his Princeton/movement offense.

I think I still go with the Cavs here unless Jerry West just takes over the series (which is possible).

Re: Greatest Team To Never win a Ring: '09 Cavs vs. '68 Lakers

Posted: Thu Apr 4, 2019 7:06 pm
by penbeast0
I also want to say that LeBron won't "smother Baylor." Elgin was one of those guys who it didn't really matter who you put on him. He had so many fakes and twitches and separation moves that he was going to get his shots off against anyone; and his shots had a high enough degree of difficulty that even a weak defender wasn't going to make him a 60% shooter. The key to the Cavs defense is going to be getting back in transition and that's one of those areas LeBron truly excels at.