Garnett instead of Shaq

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hyoyatika23
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#21 » by hyoyatika23 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 8:50 pm

Bklynborn682 wrote:

P.S. shaqs record with and without Kobe and Wade
(Shaq-Kobe)
Lakers record in total from 2000-04 (287-123 .700 win perceentage)
Lakers record with Shaq and Kobe both playing (2000-04 230-82)
(.731 win percentage)
Lakers record from 2000-04
With Kobe but no Shaq (23-26)
(.47% win percentage)
Lakers with Shaq but no Kobe (32-10) (.76% win percentage)
Lakers record without Shaq or Kobe
(2-5) (.285 win percentage)
(Shaq-Wade)
04-08 Heat record with and without Shaq
03-04 before shaq arrives in Miami 42-40 Dwyane Wade misses 21 games
05) 53-20 with 6-3 without
06) 42-17 10-13 without *champs*
07) 25-15 with 19-23 without
120-52 70% winning percentage with 35-39 47% winning percentage without
So shaq didn’t have a problem winning without another superstar


Very nice stats but here's one to sum it up:
Shaq without a bona fide superstar as teammate: 0 rings.

Period. He needed a co-star to win (again, this isn't a knock on his greatness). Yet time and again, he fails to co-exist with his co-star (Penny, Kobe, Wade).

Bklynborn682 wrote:

Shaq has never had success without a secondary star is Silly because throughout his prime he was never without a secondary star unless your talking about the 97-99 Lakers and honestly if you give them any kind of quality coach from Phil Jackson to Stan Van Gundry and theyd have been successful everyone from Magic Johnson to chick Hearn were complaining about the lack of adjustments made from game to game by Del Harris and from what we’ve seen of Kurt Rambis he seems like a worse coach. Also bringing up the 04 lakers pistons series you should check out what Chauncey had to say about Kobe.
If we single team shaq we know the lakers are going to give it to him every time in the first quarter Kobe will play nice second quarter still nice but you’ll start to see small changes and then by the third quarter if Kobe is not getting his shots we know he’ll throw the entire game plan out the window and we’ve got them right where we want them. ( that is off memory I’ll look for the exact quote and post it but essentially that’s exactly what he said.)


Yes, Kobe was selfish. So? Point was that Pistons knew Shaq's D sucks so they exploited it.

Point was what would happened if we replace Shaq with KG. Bottom-line was KG would had co-existed better with Kobe and likely to remain together till 2012 and competed.

Bklynborn682 wrote:

Also I’d love to know how you’ve come to the conclusion that having issues with your other star leads to more success than with the last man on the roster as a matter of fact I’d argue I’d rather my leading man have good relationships with teammates 3-12 than his 1b because they are the ones that need to be motivated and/or lifted by their superstar if your lucky enough to have a second superstar chances are they don’t need to be coddled and don’t need to be led like the roster players do.


Debatable.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#22 » by Bklynborn682 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 9:08 pm

hyoyatika23 wrote:
Bklynborn682 wrote:

P.S. shaqs record with and without Kobe and Wade
(Shaq-Kobe)
Lakers record in total from 2000-04 (287-123 .700 win perceentage)
Lakers record with Shaq and Kobe both playing (2000-04 230-82)
(.731 win percentage)
Lakers record from 2000-04
With Kobe but no Shaq (23-26)
(.47% win percentage)
Lakers with Shaq but no Kobe (32-10) (.76% win percentage)
Lakers record without Shaq or Kobe
(2-5) (.285 win percentage)
(Shaq-Wade)
04-08 Heat record with and without Shaq
03-04 before shaq arrives in Miami 42-40 Dwyane Wade misses 21 games
05) 53-20 with 6-3 without
06) 42-17 10-13 without *champs*
07) 25-15 with 19-23 without
120-52 70% winning percentage with 35-39 47% winning percentage without
So shaq didn’t have a problem winning without another superstar


Very nice stats but here's one to sum it up:
Shaq without a bona fide superstar as teammate: 0 rings.

Period. He needed a co-star to win (again, this isn't a knock on his greatness). Yet time and again, he fails to co-exist with his co-star (Penny, Kobe, Wade).

Bklynborn682 wrote:

Shaq has never had success without a secondary star is Silly because throughout his prime he was never without a secondary star unless your talking about the 97-99 Lakers and honestly if you give them any kind of quality coach from Phil Jackson to Stan Van Gundry and theyd have been successful everyone from Magic Johnson to chick Hearn were complaining about the lack of adjustments made from game to game by Del Harris and from what we’ve seen of Kurt Rambis he seems like a worse coach. Also bringing up the 04 lakers pistons series you should check out what Chauncey had to say about Kobe.
If we single team shaq we know the lakers are going to give it to him every time in the first quarter Kobe will play nice second quarter still nice but you’ll start to see small changes and then by the third quarter if Kobe is not getting his shots we know he’ll throw the entire game plan out the window and we’ve got them right where we want them. ( that is off memory I’ll look for the exact quote and post it but essentially that’s exactly what he said.)


Yes, Kobe was selfish. So? Point was that Pistons knew Shaq's D sucks so they exploited it.

Point was what would happened if we replace Shaq with KG. Bottom-line was KG would had co-existed better with Kobe and likely to remain together till 2012 and competed.

Bklynborn682 wrote:

Also I’d love to know how you’ve come to the conclusion that having issues with your other star leads to more success than with the last man on the roster as a matter of fact I’d argue I’d rather my leading man have good relationships with teammates 3-12 than his 1b because they are the ones that need to be motivated and/or lifted by their superstar if your lucky enough to have a second superstar chances are they don’t need to be coddled and don’t need to be led like the roster players do.


Debatable.

Interestingly enough shaqs 04 defensive metrics for the playoffs are all career highs whether they be dbpm or defensive rating he also led the playoffs in blocks and was top 3 in rebounding. Also the pistons never ran a 1-5 pick and roll it was almost always a 1-4 with sheed and Chauncey so shaq was hardly ever in the primary action and the reason they lost that series is Kobe continuing to shoot a ridiculous amount of shots on a horrid %.while shaq had no such problem scoring on the pistons.
Also again saying shaq couldn’t win without a superstar sidekick is irrelevant because throughout shaqs prime he always had one so no one knows whether he could have won or not without one. But given how limited those laker and heat teams were outside of shaq and Kobe/Wade the fact that he won 70% of the games without them and they couldn’t even win 50% of the games without him leaves me to believe he’d have more than a decent shot as long as he has a decent coach.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#23 » by hyoyatika23 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 9:32 pm

Bklynborn682 wrote:Also again saying shaq couldn’t win without a superstar sidekick is irrelevant because throughout shaqs prime he always had one so no one knows whether he could have won or not without one. But given how limited those laker and heat teams were outside of shaq and Kobe/Wade the fact that he won 70% of the games without them and they couldn’t even win 50% of the games without him leaves me to believe he’d have more than a decent shot as long as he has a decent coach.


The point was that he never was be able co-existed.

Bklynborn682 wrote:[
Interestingly enough shaqs 04 defensive metrics for the playoffs are all career highs whether they be dbpm or defensive rating he also led the playoffs in blocks and was top 3 in rebounding. Also the pistons never ran a 1-5 pick and roll it was almost always a 1-4 with sheed and Chauncey so shaq was hardly ever in the primary action and the reason they lost that series is Kobe continuing to shoot a ridiculous amount of shots on a horrid %.while shaq had no such problem scoring on the pistons.


I don't why you seem to be ignoring stuff. From the very same book you quoted the part about Billups saying stuff about Kobe being frustrated and would shoot the Lakers out of the series, you should also read that:
1. The Pistons didn't double Shaq (ie your point of Shaq scoring easy on Pistons is not that huge a deal)
2. The Pistons went at Shaq on PnR.

In another biography (Phil or Tex), it was also clearly stated that they were growing tired of Shaq's conditioning (or rather, lack thereof) and laziness on defense. Shaq was a good rim protector and he did block plenty of shots but that is not the entire part of defense. He was a very bad PnR defender and he wasn't good outside of shot-blocking (but he also gambled and went out of position at times).

If we replace KG in Shaq's situations, KG would had won a ton of titles, period. KG would had been able to co-exist better and was better defensively. Yes, KG would had likely be weaker on the offensive end, but there was the other co-star to make up for it.

I'm not saying Shaq isn't an elite player. I'm not even saying KG is better than Shaq. What I am saying is that KG would had fit those teams better.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#24 » by Bklynborn682 » Thu Aug 8, 2019 10:27 pm

hyoyatika23 wrote:
Bklynborn682 wrote:Also again saying shaq couldn’t win without a superstar sidekick is irrelevant because throughout shaqs prime he always had one so no one knows whether he could have won or not without one. But given how limited those laker and heat teams were outside of shaq and Kobe/Wade the fact that he won 70% of the games without them and they couldn’t even win 50% of the games without him leaves me to believe he’d have more than a decent shot as long as he has a decent coach.


The point was that he never was be able co-existed.

Bklynborn682 wrote:[
Interestingly enough shaqs 04 defensive metrics for the playoffs are all career highs whether they be dbpm or defensive rating he also led the playoffs in blocks and was top 3 in rebounding. Also the pistons never ran a 1-5 pick and roll it was almost always a 1-4 with sheed and Chauncey so shaq was hardly ever in the primary action and the reason they lost that series is Kobe continuing to shoot a ridiculous amount of shots on a horrid %.while shaq had no such problem scoring on the pistons.


I don't why you seem to be ignoring stuff. From the very same book you quoted the part about Billups saying stuff about Kobe being frustrated and would shoot the Lakers out of the series, you should also read that:
1. The Pistons didn't double Shaq (ie your point of Shaq scoring easy on Pistons is not that huge a deal)
2. The Pistons went at Shaq on PnR.

In another biography (Phil or Tex), it was also clearly stated that they were growing tired of Shaq's conditioning (or rather, lack thereof) and laziness on defense. Shaq was a good rim protector and he did block plenty of shots but that is not the entire part of defense. He was a very bad PnR defender and he wasn't good outside of shot-blocking (but he also gambled and went out of position at times).

If we replace KG in Shaq's situations, KG would had won a ton of titles, period. KG would had been able to co-exist better and was better defensively. Yes, KG would had likely be weaker on the offensive end, but there was the other co-star to make up for it.

I'm not saying Shaq isn't an elite player. I'm not even saying KG is better than Shaq. What I am saying is that KG would had fit those teams better.

It’s funny hearing you say that I am ignoring things when you are taking things out of context or answering one question than going back and questioning it again. But truth be told we both have differing opinions not only in this but I’ve seen you post on several other threads recently and I just think we see things differently so it may be better just to say cheers and have a good day.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#25 » by rrravenred » Fri Aug 9, 2019 12:28 am

Think Jackson would have loved having KG on the Lakers given his versatility and passing (all ideal for running the Triangle). Now I think you lose a fair bit of offensive punch without Shaw's superlative low post scoring (which, in this comparison, really seems to be undersold).

KG would probably have been a better fit on the Heat than Shaq was, though his passing would have been less valuable given Wade's (deserved) ball dominance.

The Phoenix and Cleveland stints would have been interesting. Can see the more mobile KG as providing a lot of both direct and "ambient" (for want of a better word) value to the Suns D and almost negligible impact on the offensive end.

Cleveland he would have been effectively a role player and don't see him significantly shifting the needle.

Interesting question.

Edits: Dumb phone autcorrect stuff
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#26 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:12 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:Imagine Garnett ending up having exactly the same teams Shaq had throughout his career...
How many rings? Where could he be possibly ranked?


0-7

assuming no major implosions
2-5

As for ranking, Garnett's been ranked as high by top 5 by some, I've already got him at top 10. Better teams make those opinions spread at a faster pace, but triggering political campaigns to keep him down is a solid start. :lol:
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#27 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:13 am

rrravenred wrote:Think Jackson would have loved having KG on the Lakers given his versatility and passing (all ideal for running the Triangle). Now I think you lose a fair bit of offensive punch without Shaw's superlative low post scoring (which, in this comparison, really seems to be undersold).

KG would probably have been a better fit on the Heat than Shaq was, though his passing would have been less valuable given Wade's (deserved) ball dominance.

The Phoenix and Cleveland stints would have been interesting. Can see the more mobile KG as providing a lot of both direct and "ambient" (for want of a better word) value to the Suns D and almost negligible impact on the offensive end.

Cleveland he would have been effectively a role player and don't see him significantly shifting the needle.

Interesting question.

Edits: Dumb phone autcorrect stuff

Well the cavs weren't that far off away from a title. Simply replacing a negative role player with a positive one could have made a difference.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#28 » by _Game7_ » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:53 pm

Shaq being underrated here. The offense would suffer, big time. Shaq and Kobe are known as the best duo all time for a reason. I say 2 chips.
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Re: Garnett instead of Shaq 

Post#29 » by Jiminy Glick » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:50 pm

Jaivl wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Probably gives offensive primacy to Kobe and they win '04 too.

This part really makes no sense. With how bad Kobe was on offense in that finals how would giving him more make them win?

I meant it as "there are no chemistry problems, hence Kobe plays better". If he played the same no way he wins, of course.


In the 2004 nba finals Kobe took way more shots than Shaq though.
1996 Gary Payton / 2001 Jason Kidd
1990 Michael Jordan / 1992 Scottie Pippen / 2009 Andre Iguodala
2005 Shawn Marion / 2002 Kevin Garnett / 2008 Andrei Kirilenko
2003 Tim Duncan / 1993 David Robinson
1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar / 1985 Mark Eaton

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