Who would be better at defending MJ 1-1? Tony Allen or A Clone of MJ

[OdomFan]

You saw that commercial. Jordan couldn't stop himself. Yeah, we all remember it.

Ah, just had a wave of nostalgia.....

Young MJ: "I could've dunked it."
Old MJ: "You should've dunked it."

"You reach I teach" is the more memorable line for me.

[LKN]

Always take the faster player.

this seems like a terribly flawed approach. On ball defense isn't really about speed but much more about quickness and ability to move one's feet something no one should ever question about TA here. Now if we are talking about guarding Steph Curry where you are chasing him around screens then maybe you do take Jordan over Tony Allen. But I'm not worried about how fast Allen can run here much at all.

You make a good point... I actually should have said take the "quicker player" or the player with the best "lateral quickness".

I definitely wasn't talking about straight line speed... I was referring to whoever has the best chance of being able to stay in front of MJ

[mdonnelly1989]

This is as close as I imagined it to be.

[Drylick]

No perimeter player is better on defense than a focused MJ. Man to man and/or help. This thread should end.

[mdonnelly1989]

No perimeter player is better on defense than a focused MJ. Man to man and/or help. This thread should end.

Imo Kobe is right up there when locked in.

[Mavericksfan]

No perimeter player is better on defense than a focused MJ. Man to man and/or help. This thread should end.

There was one on his own team.

Anyway

Tony Allen definitely.

[Colbinii]

Tony Allen easily.

It is like asking who a better defender is, LeBron or Bill Russell.

[JVL]

Obviously the clone and it's not even remotely close. The clone knows how offensive Jordan thinks, knows all his moves. It doesn't even matter that Allen is a better defender. Besides, I don't think the gap between the 2 is that big if we're talking about a peak defensive Jordan who doesn't have to spend energy on offense.

[cecilthesheep]

The clone knows how offensive Jordan thinks, knows all his moves.

OP specifically said this wasn't part of it.

[JVL]

The clone knows how offensive Jordan thinks, knows all his moves.

OP specifically said this wasn't part of it.

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

[Mavericksfan]

The clone knows how offensive Jordan thinks, knows all his moves.

OP specifically said this wasn't part of it.

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

[Colbinii]

OP specifically said this wasn't part of it.

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

You have to take into account games played per season as well.

[LKN]

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

You have to take into account games played per season as well.

It may not make sense for this thread (asking who could defend MJ).. but I think it's fair to say that there are quite a few players who could be more impactful on defense than Allen simply because he wasn't good enough on offense to stay on the court (and his defense wasn't impactful enough to make up for that).

Dennis Rodman never had good offensive stats - but his defense and rebounding was good enough to play significant minutes and keep him on the court.

[JVL]

OP specifically said this wasn't part of it.

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

I'm not even an MJ fan kid, but keep on telling me how the 2011 Mavericks would sweep the first 3-peat Bulls though. Love reading your hot takes.

You intentionally misrepresented what I wanted to say. I'll spit it out for you once more so you can read it a few times: If you're not good enough to stay on the court on average teams as a one-dimensional specialist compared to the GOAT, you're not going to match up to a version of said GOAT who only has to worry about excelling on defense.

Allen wasn't even a good enough defensive specialist to make an All-Star appearance or get anywhere near a DPOY award (4th in voting was his best spot with not even 100 points). Hell, MJ made the All-Defensive 1st team 9 times compared to Allen his 3. And Allen wasn't even good at anything but defense.

People here are making the mistake of simply looking at past MJ his defense and taking that as the benchmark.

[Jaivl]

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

I'm not even an MJ fan kid, but keep on telling me how the 2011 Mavericks would sweep the first 3-peat Bulls though. Love reading your hot takes.

You intentionally misrepresented what I wanted to say. I'll spit it out for you once more so you can read it a few times: If you're not good enough to stay on the court on average teams as a one-dimensional specialist compared to the GOAT, you're not going to match up to a version of said GOAT who only has to worry about excelling on defense.

Allen wasn't even a good enough defensive specialist to make an All-Star appearance or get anywhere near a DPOY award (4th in voting was his best spot with not even 100 points). Hell, MJ made the All-Defensive 1st team 9 times compared to Allen his 3. And Allen wasn't even good at anything but defense.

People here are making the mistake of simply looking at past MJ his defense and taking that as the benchmark.

You know it does not work that way, right?

"If Robinson did not defend and spent all his energy on offense he would drive relentlessly to the rim and score 40 per game and he would be the GOAT offensive center". Sounds dumb, because offense is not 100% effort. Well, neither is defense.

Also, using accolades in a **peak** *defense** comparison is nearly as ridiculous as using offensive stats. Well, actually more, because you do have a point (but not as big as you think) on the role shift stuff.

[Colbinii]

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

You have to take into account games played per season as well.

It may not make sense for this thread (asking who could defend MJ).. but I think it's fair to say that there are quite a few players who could be more impactful on defense than Allen simply because he wasn't good enough on offense to stay on the court (and his defense wasn't impactful enough to make up for that).

Dennis Rodman never had good offensive stats - but his defense and rebounding was good enough to play significant minutes and keep him on the court.

Of course it makes sense in this thread.

I would love to hear a list of players who are better man to man defenders on the perimeter than Tony Allen.

[LKN]

You have to take into account games played per season as well.

It may not make sense for this thread (asking who could defend MJ).. but I think it's fair to say that there are quite a few players who could be more impactful on defense than Allen simply because he wasn't good enough on offense to stay on the court (and his defense wasn't impactful enough to make up for that).

Dennis Rodman never had good offensive stats - but his defense and rebounding was good enough to play significant minutes and keep him on the court.

Of course it makes sense in this thread.

I would love to hear a list of players who are better man to man defenders on the perimeter than Tony Allen.

I think you misread or mis-interpreted what I posted.

It's possible for Tony Allen to be the best perimeter defender ever when he's on the court but have less defensive impact than other good defenders simply because he's not good enough to stay on the court more.

I mean I thought I was agreeing with your statement "You have to take into account games played per season as well."??

[Mavericksfan]

It may not make sense for this thread (asking who could defend MJ).. but I think it's fair to say that there are quite a few players who could be more impactful on defense than Allen simply because he wasn't good enough on offense to stay on the court (and his defense wasn't impactful enough to make up for that).

Dennis Rodman never had good offensive stats - but his defense and rebounding was good enough to play significant minutes and keep him on the court.

Of course it makes sense in this thread.

I would love to hear a list of players who are better man to man defenders on the perimeter than Tony Allen.

I think you misread or mis-interpreted what I posted.

It's possible for Tony Allen to be the best perimeter defender ever when he's on the court but have less defensive impact than other good defenders simply because he's not good enough to stay on the court more.

I mean I thought I was agreeing with your statement "You have to take into account games played per season as well."??

eh usually when we’re talking about impact it’s in reference to what you do when you’re on the court. I do like the idea of considering volume since having guys capable of playing heavy minutes is super valuable.

But dont sleep on Rodman’s offensive impact. Being the GOAT offensive rebounder contributes a lot to a team since the defense is usually out of position after securing an O-rebound.

[KobesScarf]

MJ clone because refs let MJ get away with murder defensively

[bledredwine]

Still taking Jordan. Tony Allen is a career 8ppg, 1.3 assists and 3.5 total rebounds player. He took a career 6.6 shots per game on 47% shooting. Offensively he was simply a below average nobody. He was on the court to play D and could dedicate all his energy to that end. He played 22 minutes per game on average and only started 50% of all games he played. He played an average of 57 games per season throughout his career.

I'm convinced a prime defensive Jordan would be better than Allen.

Did you seriously just use Tony Allen’s offensive stats as means to prove Jordan is better defensively???

MJ fans are on another level man

Way to let his point fly completely over your head.

He’s saying that Allen didn’t have elite defense while having the nightly responsibility of putting up 30+ points per game, twice as many rebounds and assists.

Think about that for a moment.

And it’s a great point. When Jordan had a mission or agenda, be it guarding Kukoc/Stackhouse, shuttling down Payton, turning the game upside down to spur a comeback against the Pacers in an elimination game or stealing the ball to win a finals/playoffs game, he did it most of the time time. Do you not understand that point? You haven’t seen those stops consistently from anyone consistently in the last 8 years, Kawhi being the closest.

Now I’ve noticed that almost every one of your posts is a jab rather than a contribution to the basketball talk. Someone will make a point and you reply with a one line quip. Quality posts man, quality posts. There’s no reason to create friction out of thin air, group people as ____ fans, throw jabs at them, and to make posts without a single point towards the talk at hand.

Something to keep in mind as you post- Ultimately, we’re being judged by everyone on the quality/substance to quantity ratio of our posts. It’s ok to have a substantially different view, but it’s ignorant to simply name-throw, avoiding any basketball substance. Your rep as poster will only keep getting lower that way. That’s just something to keep in mind. It’s ok to have an opposite opinion, but try to provide some basketball talk as well (stats, opinions whatever).

Lately we’ve all gotten a lot better, realgm post quality has been high and it’s encouraging. Let’s try to continue that trend?