RealGM

This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'81 Sixers (have HCA) - 62-20, lost to Champion Boston in 7, SRS +7.76, Offense +1.6, Defense -6.0

C. Jones
B. Jones
J. Erving
L. Hollins
M. Cheeks

D. Dawkins
A. Toney
S. Mix
C. Richardson

'96 Spurs - 59-23, lost to Jazz in 2nd round, SRS +5.9, Offense +2.6, Defense -4.1

D. Robinson
C. Smith
S. Elliot
V. Del Negro
A. Johnson

W. Perdue
C. Person
D. Rivers

The fact that the Spurs had two teams of this era that qualified (I grabbed the one with the highest SRS to be objective) with this roster is a testament to how great Robinson was. I don't think people always appreciate how great his run was from '90-'96.

With that said, I'm comfortably taking the Sixers. Aside from the center position, Philadelphia has the Spurs outclassed at every position and they have a superior bench as well. This team came very close to beating the Celtics who imo are one of the underrated champions and this squad is bookended with a pair of teams that lost in the Finals to the Lakers - and even this loss to Boston had 3 of their 4 losses come by 2 points or less. A squad that came very close to toppling those Celtics & Lakers squads in the same year - 3 straight years no less - definitely is getting by a Spurs team that is anchored by an outstanding Admiral - but his crew is undermanned & outgunned.

Sixers in 5.

sixers v celtics rightly gets a lot of recognition as one of the best series ever but a super, super overlooked series was the previous round, sixers slaying the 60 win/7.14 SRS bucks in 7 games. can't think of any title winners that took out two 60 win teams on their way to the title

also think the sixers have more benefit of the doubt considering they made the finals in both 80 and 82. beat boston both years but lost to LA

Yeah, Robinson was great, the rest of the team was weak for a serious contender. The Sixers are deep and strong; not a huge Dawkins fan and Caldwell Jones was, by that point, a defense only player but still, I have to go with the Sixers as well. The three superteams of the early 80s were pretty loaded.

Yeah, Spurs team outside of Admiral is nothing special and they'd really struggle against athletic Philly defense. I can see Julius and Toney having huge series and Robinson would probably struggle offensively against Caldwell with Julius/Jones help.

Sixers in 5/6

Shouldn't this say 96' Sonics? Or if not...96' Jazz??

96 Western Conference finals was a grueling 7 game battle between the Jazz and Sonics..Sonics won.

How are the Spurs even in the discussion?

81 Sixers easily..hands down. The 81' Eastern Conference Finals between the Sixers and Celtics was probably the greatest, most competitive conference finals in NBA history. I would rank it:

1) 81 ECF
2) 87 ECF
3) 90 ECF

Sixers vs Celtics in 81 was an all out war..it was clearly the 2 best teams in the league that year, as the Sixers gave the Celtics a much tougher series than the Rockets game the Celtics in the NBA finals. So yeah, the 81 Sixers are up there among the greatest teams to not win a championship.

Senior wrote:sixers v celtics rightly gets a lot of recognition as one of the best series ever but a super, super overlooked series was the previous round, sixers slaying the 60 win/7.14 SRS bucks in 7 games. can't think of any title winners that took out two 60 win teams on their way to the title

also think the sixers have more benefit of the doubt considering they made the finals in both 80 and 82. beat boston both years but lost to LA

Just to nitpick, but the 1995 Rockets beat 2 60 game winners. Beating 59-win Utah, 60-win Phoenix, and 62-win SA just to make the finals before the 'easy' series against 57-win Orlando. I'd have actually figured the 62-win Spurs team to be in this competition ahead of the 1996 version due to more regular season wins and going a round deeper in the playoffs.

Though the 81 Philly team is a little before my time to really vote, the Spurs of that era seemed just below real title contender quality (though this may be after the fact justification).

giberish wrote:

Senior wrote:sixers v celtics rightly gets a lot of recognition as one of the best series ever but a super, super overlooked series was the previous round, sixers slaying the 60 win/7.14 SRS bucks in 7 games. can't think of any title winners that took out two 60 win teams on their way to the title

also think the sixers have more benefit of the doubt considering they made the finals in both 80 and 82. beat boston both years but lost to LA

Just to nitpick, but the 1995 Rockets beat 2 60 game winners. Beating 59-win Utah, 60-win Phoenix, and 62-win SA just to make the finals before the 'easy' series against 57-win Orlando. I'd have actually figured the 62-win Spurs team to be in this competition ahead of the 1996 version due to more regular season wins and going a round deeper in the playoffs.

Though the 81 Philly team is a little before my time to really vote, the Spurs of that era seemed just below real title contender quality (though this may be after the fact justification).

Chicago also achieved the feat of beating two 60 win teams in 3 of their title runs (93, 96, 97).

When multiple entrants of a team were eligible, to be objective, I stuck with the version that had the highest srs.

pandrade83 wrote:This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'81 Sixers (have HCA) - 62-20, lost to Champion Boston in 7, SRS +7.76, Offense +1.6, Defense -6.0

C. Jones
B. Jones
J. Erving
L. Hollins
M. Cheeks

D. Dawkins
A. Toney
S. Mix
C. Richardson

'96 Spurs - 59-23, lost to Jazz in 2nd round, SRS +5.9, Offense +2.6, Defense -4.1

D. Robinson
C. Smith
S. Elliot
V. Del Negro
A. Johnson

W. Perdue
C. Person
D. Rivers

The fact that the Spurs had two teams of this era that qualified (I grabbed the one with the highest SRS to be objective) with this roster is a testament to how great Robinson was. I don't think people always appreciate how great his run was from '90-'96.

With that said, I'm comfortably taking the Sixers. Aside from the center position, Philadelphia has the Spurs outclassed at every position and they have a superior bench as well. This team came very close to beating the Celtics who imo are one of the underrated champions and this squad is bookended with a pair of teams that lost in the Finals to the Lakers - and even this loss to Boston had 3 of their 4 losses come by 2 points or less. A squad that came very close to toppling those Celtics & Lakers squads in the same year - 3 straight years no less - definitely is getting by a Spurs team that is anchored by an outstanding Admiral - but his crew is undermanned & outgunned.

Sixers in 5.

Yes DRob is highly underrated. Imo, the most underrated player in the top 20. This is why the DRob vs KG comparisons are laughable because there are no Minnesota teams that would be nominated in this tournament and DRob did not have any elite help.

How far DRob was able to take these Spurs teams is a testament to his impact......

Also, to add I would take the Sixers in this matchup. Those Sixers from 80-83 were underrated as well. They would have to fight through Milwaukee, Boston only to have to face KAJ/Magic/Worthy in the finals.

That would be like having to face the Rockets, the Warriors, and then another Warriors team in the finals.....

G35 wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'81 Sixers (have HCA) - 62-20, lost to Champion Boston in 7, SRS +7.76, Offense +1.6, Defense -6.0

C. Jones
B. Jones
J. Erving
L. Hollins
M. Cheeks

D. Dawkins
A. Toney
S. Mix
C. Richardson

'96 Spurs - 59-23, lost to Jazz in 2nd round, SRS +5.9, Offense +2.6, Defense -4.1

D. Robinson
C. Smith
S. Elliot
V. Del Negro
A. Johnson

W. Perdue
C. Person
D. Rivers

The fact that the Spurs had two teams of this era that qualified (I grabbed the one with the highest SRS to be objective) with this roster is a testament to how great Robinson was. I don't think people always appreciate how great his run was from '90-'96.

With that said, I'm comfortably taking the Sixers. Aside from the center position, Philadelphia has the Spurs outclassed at every position and they have a superior bench as well. This team came very close to beating the Celtics who imo are one of the underrated champions and this squad is bookended with a pair of teams that lost in the Finals to the Lakers - and even this loss to Boston had 3 of their 4 losses come by 2 points or less. A squad that came very close to toppling those Celtics & Lakers squads in the same year - 3 straight years no less - definitely is getting by a Spurs team that is anchored by an outstanding Admiral - but his crew is undermanned & outgunned.

Sixers in 5.

Yes DRob is highly underrated. Imo, the most underrated player in the top 20. This is why the DRob vs KG comparisons are laughable because there are no Minnesota teams that would be nominated in this tournament and DRob did not have any elite help.

How far DRob was able to take these Spurs teams is a testament to his impact......

Also, to add I would take the Sixers in this matchup. Those Sixers from 80-83 were underrated as well. They would have to fight through Milwaukee, Boston only to have to face KAJ/Magic/Worthy in the finals.

That would be like having to face the Rockets, the Warriors, and then another Warriors team in the finals.....

Actually...Robinson's team's usually got beat by lower seeded teams in the playoffs....until Duncan arrived. I don't think Robinson is that overrated..when looking at where most on this board have him ranked. I have him #23 on my all-time list.

Before Duncan arrived..
90 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Blazers (3 seed) in 2nd round in 7 games
91 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Warriors (7 seed) in 1st round 3 games to 1
92 Spurs (5 seed) get swept in 1st round by Suns (4 seed)...ouch!
93 Spurs (5 seed) lost in 6 games to Suns (1 seed)
94 Spurs (4 seed) get upset by Jazz (5 seed) , losing 3 games to 1...ouch!
95 Spurs (1 seed) get upset by Rockets (6 seed) in 6 games...ouch!
96 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Jazz (3 seed) in 6 games..ouch!

Hal14 wrote:

G35 wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'81 Sixers (have HCA) - 62-20, lost to Champion Boston in 7, SRS +7.76, Offense +1.6, Defense -6.0

C. Jones
B. Jones
J. Erving
L. Hollins
M. Cheeks

D. Dawkins
A. Toney
S. Mix
C. Richardson

'96 Spurs - 59-23, lost to Jazz in 2nd round, SRS +5.9, Offense +2.6, Defense -4.1

D. Robinson
C. Smith
S. Elliot
V. Del Negro
A. Johnson

W. Perdue
C. Person
D. Rivers

The fact that the Spurs had two teams of this era that qualified (I grabbed the one with the highest SRS to be objective) with this roster is a testament to how great Robinson was. I don't think people always appreciate how great his run was from '90-'96.

With that said, I'm comfortably taking the Sixers. Aside from the center position, Philadelphia has the Spurs outclassed at every position and they have a superior bench as well. This team came very close to beating the Celtics who imo are one of the underrated champions and this squad is bookended with a pair of teams that lost in the Finals to the Lakers - and even this loss to Boston had 3 of their 4 losses come by 2 points or less. A squad that came very close to toppling those Celtics & Lakers squads in the same year - 3 straight years no less - definitely is getting by a Spurs team that is anchored by an outstanding Admiral - but his crew is undermanned & outgunned.

Sixers in 5.

Yes DRob is highly underrated. Imo, the most underrated player in the top 20. This is why the DRob vs KG comparisons are laughable because there are no Minnesota teams that would be nominated in this tournament and DRob did not have any elite help.

How far DRob was able to take these Spurs teams is a testament to his impact......

Also, to add I would take the Sixers in this matchup. Those Sixers from 80-83 were underrated as well. They would have to fight through Milwaukee, Boston only to have to face KAJ/Magic/Worthy in the finals.

That would be like having to face the Rockets, the Warriors, and then another Warriors team in the finals.....

Actually...Robinson's team's usually got beat by lower seeded teams in the playoffs....until Duncan arrived. I don't think Robinson is that overrated..when looking at where most on this board have him ranked. I have him #23 on my all-time list.

Before Duncan arrived..
90 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Blazers (3 seed) in 2nd round in 7 games
91 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Warriors (7 seed) in 1st round 3 games to 1
92 Spurs (5 seed) get swept in 1st round by Suns (4 seed)...ouch!
93 Spurs (5 seed) lost in 6 games to Suns (1 seed)
94 Spurs (4 seed) get upset by Jazz (5 seed) , losing 3 games to 1...ouch!
95 Spurs (1 seed) get upset by Rockets (6 seed) in 6 games...ouch!
96 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Jazz (3 seed) in 6 games..ouch!

Leaving aside that you have, at best, dubiously interpreted the poster quoted (how far Robinson was able to take the Spurs does not specify playoffs, and it is odd to penalize a player for good regular season performance, even if team postseason performance was a good barometer of the thing in question) ...

I don't know that Robinson wasn't playing in that series ... ouch!

giberish wrote:

Senior wrote:sixers v celtics rightly gets a lot of recognition as one of the best series ever but a super, super overlooked series was the previous round, sixers slaying the 60 win/7.14 SRS bucks in 7 games. can't think of any title winners that took out two 60 win teams on their way to the title

also think the sixers have more benefit of the doubt considering they made the finals in both 80 and 82. beat boston both years but lost to LA

Just to nitpick, but the 1995 Rockets beat 2 60 game winners. Beating 59-win Utah, 60-win Phoenix, and 62-win SA just to make the finals before the 'easy' series against 57-win Orlando. I'd have actually figured the 62-win Spurs team to be in this competition ahead of the 1996 version due to more regular season wins and going a round deeper in the playoffs.

Though the 81 Philly team is a little before my time to really vote, the Spurs of that era seemed just below real title contender quality (though this may be after the fact justification).

Oh yeah, I can't believe I forgot about the 95 Rockets. 97, 93, 96 Bulls did it too.

Owly wrote:

Hal14 wrote:

G35 wrote:

Yes DRob is highly underrated. Imo, the most underrated player in the top 20. This is why the DRob vs KG comparisons are laughable because there are no Minnesota teams that would be nominated in this tournament and DRob did not have any elite help.

How far DRob was able to take these Spurs teams is a testament to his impact......

Also, to add I would take the Sixers in this matchup. Those Sixers from 80-83 were underrated as well. They would have to fight through Milwaukee, Boston only to have to face KAJ/Magic/Worthy in the finals.

That would be like having to face the Rockets, the Warriors, and then another Warriors team in the finals.....

Actually...Robinson's team's usually got beat by lower seeded teams in the playoffs....until Duncan arrived. I don't think Robinson is that overrated..when looking at where most on this board have him ranked. I have him #23 on my all-time list.

Before Duncan arrived..
90 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Blazers (3 seed) in 2nd round in 7 games
91 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Warriors (7 seed) in 1st round 3 games to 1
92 Spurs (5 seed) get swept in 1st round by Suns (4 seed)...ouch!
93 Spurs (5 seed) lost in 6 games to Suns (1 seed)
94 Spurs (4 seed) get upset by Jazz (5 seed) , losing 3 games to 1...ouch!
95 Spurs (1 seed) get upset by Rockets (6 seed) in 6 games...ouch!
96 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Jazz (3 seed) in 6 games..ouch!

Leaving aside that you have, at best, dubiously interpreted the poster quoted (how far Robinson was able to take the Spurs does not specify playoffs, and it is odd to penalize a player for good regular season performance, even if team postseason performance was a good barometer of the thing in question) ...

I don't know that Robinson wasn't playing in that series ... ouch!

The Spurs were a perennial 50 win+ team that did much better than that most years, had outstanding regular seasons in a challenging conference, but still made it out of the 1st round most years (while Robinson was healthy anyway) with a pretty abysmal cast. Robinson would be higher on my GOAT list, save for his relatively short longevity.

Hal14 wrote:

G35 wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. VOTES WITHOUT ANALYSIS (or with what in my personal subject opinion is stupid analysis) WONT BE COUNTED. (Lots of capital letters!) I will list results here. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'81 Sixers (have HCA) - 62-20, lost to Champion Boston in 7, SRS +7.76, Offense +1.6, Defense -6.0

C. Jones
B. Jones
J. Erving
L. Hollins
M. Cheeks

D. Dawkins
A. Toney
S. Mix
C. Richardson

'96 Spurs - 59-23, lost to Jazz in 2nd round, SRS +5.9, Offense +2.6, Defense -4.1

D. Robinson
C. Smith
S. Elliot
V. Del Negro
A. Johnson

W. Perdue
C. Person
D. Rivers

The fact that the Spurs had two teams of this era that qualified (I grabbed the one with the highest SRS to be objective) with this roster is a testament to how great Robinson was. I don't think people always appreciate how great his run was from '90-'96.

With that said, I'm comfortably taking the Sixers. Aside from the center position, Philadelphia has the Spurs outclassed at every position and they have a superior bench as well. This team came very close to beating the Celtics who imo are one of the underrated champions and this squad is bookended with a pair of teams that lost in the Finals to the Lakers - and even this loss to Boston had 3 of their 4 losses come by 2 points or less. A squad that came very close to toppling those Celtics & Lakers squads in the same year - 3 straight years no less - definitely is getting by a Spurs team that is anchored by an outstanding Admiral - but his crew is undermanned & outgunned.

Sixers in 5.

Yes DRob is highly underrated. Imo, the most underrated player in the top 20. This is why the DRob vs KG comparisons are laughable because there are no Minnesota teams that would be nominated in this tournament and DRob did not have any elite help.

How far DRob was able to take these Spurs teams is a testament to his impact......

Also, to add I would take the Sixers in this matchup. Those Sixers from 80-83 were underrated as well. They would have to fight through Milwaukee, Boston only to have to face KAJ/Magic/Worthy in the finals.

That would be like having to face the Rockets, the Warriors, and then another Warriors team in the finals.....

Actually...Robinson's team's usually got beat by lower seeded teams in the playoffs....until Duncan arrived. I don't think Robinson is that overrated..when looking at where most on this board have him ranked. I have him #23 on my all-time list.

Before Duncan arrived..
90 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Blazers (3 seed) in 2nd round in 7 games
91 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Warriors (7 seed) in 1st round 3 games to 1
92 Spurs (5 seed) get swept in 1st round by Suns (4 seed)...ouch!
93 Spurs (5 seed) lost in 6 games to Suns (1 seed)
94 Spurs (4 seed) get upset by Jazz (5 seed) , losing 3 games to 1...ouch!
95 Spurs (1 seed) get upset by Rockets (6 seed) in 6 games...ouch!
96 Spurs (2 seed) get upset by Jazz (3 seed) in 6 games..ouch!

What that shows is that Robinson was a one man team...I don't know if that is being understood. Robinson was able to carry the Spurs during the RS but he was not getting any help in the PS.

Look at the support he had in the PS:

1991 - no Spur starter had a PER over 14.6
1993 - no starter had a PER over 15.0
1994 - only Rodman had a decent PER at 16.4 but he missed a game, and the other starters had PER's of 11.7,12.4, and 9.3
1995 - Avery Johnson had the highest PER at 16.8,
1996 - Avery Johnson had the highest PER at 15.5

For a sense of reference look at these other seasons where stars had little support:

CLE 2007 - Zydrunas Illgauskas had a PER of 18.0
MIN 2004 - Cassell had a PER of 19.6 and Sprewell 17.7

Robinson was carrying a heavier load than other players; Stockton and Malone didn't have a lot of help either but a least they had each other. Hakeem was going out in the first round for years until 1994 and 95. Dirk got upset by the Warriors being the last #1 seed getting upset by an 8th seed. KG lost in the first round 7 years straight, missed the playoffs three years in a row in his prime. Kobe went out in the first round two years in a row and missed the playoffs.

The West is no joke...very competitive....