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This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here

Each player will be considered to be as dominant against his opponents as he was the year that he played (ie. if you are just going to say the more modern team wins, don't bother to participate). And EACH MATCHUP WILL FEATURE THE RULES, REFEREES, AND EQUIPMENT OF THE OLDER TEAM. This doesn't mean that Steph Curry will be called for carrying each time he tries to dribble, just assume that his handle is proportionately as good relative to the era as it is relative to his own. So, in 65, if you think he has the best handle in today's league, you can assume he has the best handle of that era; if he's roughly average for starting PGs of today's league in terms of that one aspect, you can assume he is roughly average for starting PGs of that era. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. Voting without any reason listed at all will not be counted. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'96 Sonics 64-18, Lost in Finals to Bulls in 6, +2.7 Offense, -5.5 Defense, +7.4 SRS

E. Johnson
S. Kemp
D. Schrempf
H. Hawkins
G. Payton

S. Perkins
N. McMillan
V. Askew

'93 Suns 62-20, Lost in Finals to Bulls in 6, +6.27 SRS, +5.3 Offense, -1.3 Defense

M. West
C. Barkley
C. Ceballos
D. Majerle
K. Johnson

D. Ainge
T. Chambers
N. Knight
F. Johnson
O. Miller
R. Dumas

This is a tough one. These are two of the better teams in this tournament and I'm bummed out that one of them must get eliminated in round 1.

I think both teams have a compelling argument here, so let's look at each:

Case for Phoenix
-They have the best player in the series in Barkley.
-They beat the Sonics in real life in '93 with that squad having 4 of the same Top 8, including GP & Payton.
-The shortened 3 point line could hurt the Sonics.
-They are good at getting to the line (5/27) and the Sonics are fairly foul prone (20th/29)
-They should be able to have the rebounding edge as they are better at both offensive & defensive rebounding than Seattle
-The Sonics SRS numbers may be inflated on the basis of this being an expansion year


Case for Seattle
-They have HCA
-Took Phx to 7 in '93 - their two best players are better versions of themselves.
-Should be able to win the TO battle as Phx was somewhat careless with the ball themselves (17/27) and Seattle was best in the league at forcing TOs.



Ultimately I think Phoenix has the slightly better team. I'd expect a very competitive series and would take the winner to advance over the '02 Kings.

Well the 1993 Suns barely got by the 1993 Sonics. I would say the 1996 Sonics were better than the 1993 Sonics. But then again the 1996 Sonics barely got by the 1996 Jazz and the 1997 and 1998 Jazz were better than the 1996 Jazz.

JordansBulls wrote:Well the 1993 Suns barely got by the 1993 Sonics. I would say the 1996 Sonics were better than the 1993 Sonics. But then again the 1996 Sonics barely got by the 1996 Jazz and the 1997 and 1998 Jazz were better than the 1996 Jazz.

I can't tell who you're taking, haha

Tough one. At first glance, they are pretty evenly matched just about everywhere except maybe that Perkins is a step up from Chambers/Miller. Need to actually do some numbers.

pandrade83 wrote:

JordansBulls wrote:Well the 1993 Suns barely got by the 1993 Sonics. I would say the 1996 Sonics were better than the 1993 Sonics. But then again the 1996 Sonics barely got by the 1996 Jazz and the 1997 and 1998 Jazz were better than the 1996 Jazz.

I can't tell who you're taking, haha

JordanBulls is taking the team that lost to MJ in the finals

96 Sonics dude.

I gotta go with the Sonics on this 1 but it would be a damn good series.

Suns are better.

They won 60+ games with KJ missing a huge chunk of the season, and might have even beaten the Bulls if Ceballos didn't get injured earlier in the playoffs

bledredwine and OdomFan, I'm not running this one but the OP says votes without analysis won't be counted.

LakerLegend wrote:Suns are better.

They won 60+ games with KJ missing a huge chunk of the season, and might have even beaten the Bulls if Ceballos didn't get injured earlier in the playoffs

If KJ were 100% for the series I’d take the Suns. As both teams were in real time I would probably go with Seattle.

bledredwine wrote:96 Sonics dude.

Need a touch more detail to count this.

OdomFan wrote:I gotta go with the Sonics on this 1 but it would be a damn good series.

Can you add just 1 reason why?

pandrade83 wrote:

bledredwine wrote:96 Sonics dude.

Need a touch more detail to count this.

Sure. They had a GOAT level defense, a defensive player of the year, had a fantastic big in schrempf who could hit jumpers.

That’s a recipe for success, despite Phoenix’s impressive firepower.

That said, KJ Payton and Barkley Kemp would be two amazing matchups and would likely determine the entire series.

Still, the Sonics may not have lost to the Bulls if Jordan didn’t lock Payton down for 1 point in the second half after blasting the first half (game 5? Forgot). Who the could lock Payton up on Phoenix?

I’m convinced that that year’s sonics team is one of the better teams assembled, but will be overlooked because the names don’t jump out. But that’s how loaded that decade was with legit franchise players. But Payton’s one of the best all around point guards ever and Kemp was a beast at the time. Both were beasts defensively.

bledredwine wrote:

pandrade83 wrote:

bledredwine wrote:96 Sonics dude.

Need a touch more detail to count this.

Sure. They had a GOAT level defense, a defensive player of the year, had a fantastic big in schrempf who could hit jumpers.

That’s a recipe for success, despite Phoenix’s impressive firepower.

That said, KJ Payton and Barkley Kemp would be two amazing matchups and would likely determine the entire series.

Still, the Sonics may not have lost to the Bulls if Jordan didn’t lock Payton down for 1 point in the second half after blasting the first half (game 5? Forgot). Who the could lock Payton up on Phoenix?

I’m convinced that that year’s sonics team is one of the better teams assembled, but will be overlooked because the names don’t jump out. But that’s how loaded that decade was with legit franchise players. But Payton’s one of the best all around point guards ever and Kemp was a beast at the time. Both were beasts defensively.

I believe it was game 1, though Payton struggled scoring against Sacramento and Utah as well in that same run.

Would Ceballos play? He was quite good the 2nd part of that year and reinjured himself during the WCF. He was unable to play in the finals

LKN wrote:Would Ceballos play? He was quite good the 2nd part of that year and reinjured himself during the WCF. He was unable to play in the finals

Yes - the rule stipulations are that teams' health is as it was at the beginning of the playoffs - although you are free to assume that as the tournament progresses certain players would break down - or that in an earlier era, certain injury prone players may be more prone to sustaining injuries.

I'd take the Suns. The sonics although very good, did not have a guy who could just go off. No one even averaged 20 ppg on that team, although you had Kemp, Payton, Shrempf who were just under. They were better defensively than the Suns, but I'd rather have Barkley as a star.

The Explorer wrote:I'd take the Suns. The sonics although very good, did not have a guy who could just go off. No one even averaged 20 ppg on that team, although you had Kemp, Payton, Shrempf who were just under. They were better defensively than the Suns, but I'd rather have Barkley as a star.

You swung the matchup at the 11th hour!