Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis

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Better Player Right Now

Kawhi
21
40%
Curry
26
49%
Giannis
6
11%
 
Total votes: 53

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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#81 » by iggymcfrack » Thu May 23, 2019 7:45 am

Kawhi’s last 3 playoffs are all better than any playoffs of Curry’s career and much better than any playoffs except 2017 when the Warriors were never even tested. Curry meanwhile was having arguably the worst playoffs of his entire career until 5 games ago when KD went down. I don’t see how you can possibly weight 5 playoff games (4 of them near exhibitions against a bad defensive team in Portland) more than 38 playoff games from Kawhi playing at an all-time level.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#82 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 7:45 am

WarriorGM wrote:
70sFan wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
I haven't looked at the numbers but I will venture the guess that it may favor Kawhi individually but the team offense produced by Curry is superior. It is not a coincidence that players like Draymond, Iguodala, Looney and in previous years McGee looked great in the playoffs. When pressured Curry instead of forcing tough shots works through his teammates who can get easier ones. That's why even currently you're hearing the nitwits in media proclaiming Draymond as being even better than Curry.


People argue that Draymond is better than Curry because of defense and consistency. Curry played bad in first 2 rounds, Green has been great since start of the playoffs.

Please, stop with this narrative that Curry makes great (defensive) players like Draymond or Iggy look great. Andre was great before joining to the Warriors and Green would be DPOTY candidate in any other team.


We saw what they looked like with KD playing. Not bad by any means but they don't look as good as they do with Curry running the show.


Except the Warriors have peaked higher with KD then without. That includes Steph, whose enjoyed his most efficient post season runs after he recruited KD.

The willingness of some of you to present fantasy as fact, peddle half truths, or flat out lie when it comes to KD is pathetically juvenile.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#83 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 7:48 am

iggymcfrack wrote:Kawhi’s last 3 playoffs are all better than any playoffs of Curry’s career and much better than any playoffs except 2017 when the Warriors were never even tested. Curry meanwhile was having arguably the worst playoffs of his entire career until 5 games ago when KD went down. I don’t see how you can possibly weight 5 playoff games (4 of them near exhibitions against a bad defensive team in Portland) more than 38 playoff games from Kawhi playing at an all-time level.


A lot of people apparently have the memory of goldfish. Yes, it was awesome to watch him catch fire against Houston, but that doesn’t mean we have to pretend as if the playoffs were one series long, or it was KD’s fault he was missing layups, getting hung at the rim, and shorting sub 30% from three.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#84 » by WarriorGM » Thu May 23, 2019 7:51 am

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
70sFan wrote:
People argue that Draymond is better than Curry because of defense and consistency. Curry played bad in first 2 rounds, Green has been great since start of the playoffs.

Please, stop with this narrative that Curry makes great (defensive) players like Draymond or Iggy look great. Andre was great before joining to the Warriors and Green would be DPOTY candidate in any other team.


We saw what they looked like with KD playing. Not bad by any means but they don't look as good as they do with Curry running the show.


Except the Warriors have peaked higher with KD then without. That includes Steph, whose enjoyed his most efficient post season runs after he recruited KD.

The willingness of some of you to present fantasy as fact, peddle half truths, or flat out lie when it comes to KD is pathetically juvenile.


Who said the Warriors don't peak higher with KD? What is your complaint? What should be plain though is that Curry as the creator brings out more from his teammates. That does have its own downside but if translating effort to wins is the goal Curry is the guy you want starting the offense.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#85 » by iggymcfrack » Thu May 23, 2019 8:01 am

Top postseason PERs all-time by perimeter players other than Michael Jordan and LeBron James (who have 11 of the top 15 spots):

2017 Kawhi Leonard 31.5
2008 Chris Paul 30.7
2016 Kawhi Leonard 28.6
2019 Kawhi Leonard 28.2

1960 Elgin Baylor 28.0
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo 27.7
1984 Bernard King 27.6
2017 Kevin Durant 27.5
2012 Kevin Durant 27.5
1958 Cliff Hagan 27.5
1962 Elgin Baylor 27.4
1995 Kevin Johnson 27.4
1978 Marques Johnson 27.2
2005 Tracy McGrady 27.2
2017 Stephen Curry 27.1
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#86 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:04 am

iggymcfrack wrote:Top postseason PERs all-time by perimeter players other than Michael Jordan and LeBron James (who have 11 of the top 15 spots):

2017 Kawhi Leonard 31.5
2008 Chris Paul 30.7
2016 Kawhi Leonard 28.6
2019 Kawhi Leonard 28.2

1960 Elgin Baylor 28.0
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo 27.7
1984 Bernard King 27.6
2017 Kevin Durant 27.5
2012 Kevin Durant 27.5
1958 Cliff Hagan 27.5
1962 Elgin Baylor 27.4
1995 Kevin Johnson 27.4
1978 Marques Johnson 27.2
2005 Tracy McGrady 27.2
2017 Stephen Curry 27.1


I don’t really feel this is the ideal or most appropriate way to compare players. Arbitrarily listing PER doesn’t really tell us much about how these guys stack up against one another.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#87 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 8:09 am

WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
We saw what they looked like with KD playing. Not bad by any means but they don't look as good as they do with Curry running the show.


Except the Warriors have peaked higher with KD then without. That includes Steph, whose enjoyed his most efficient post season runs after he recruited KD.

The willingness of some of you to present fantasy as fact, peddle half truths, or flat out lie when it comes to KD is pathetically juvenile.


Who said the Warriors don't peak higher with KD? What is your complaint? What should be plain though is that Curry as the creator brings out more from his teammates. That does have its own downside but if translating effort to wins is the goal Curry is the guy you want starting the offense.


What looks good about being down 17-18 pts in three straight games? Losing nine games, and barely getting by and or losing important post season match ups(15-16), “looks better” than 16-1 or sweeping the finals?
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#88 » by iggymcfrack » Thu May 23, 2019 8:12 am

Ooduwa wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:Top postseason PERs all-time by perimeter players other than Michael Jordan and LeBron James (who have 11 of the top 15 spots):

2017 Kawhi Leonard 31.5
2008 Chris Paul 30.7
2016 Kawhi Leonard 28.6
2019 Kawhi Leonard 28.2

1960 Elgin Baylor 28.0
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo 27.7
1984 Bernard King 27.6
2017 Kevin Durant 27.5
2012 Kevin Durant 27.5
1958 Cliff Hagan 27.5
1962 Elgin Baylor 27.4
1995 Kevin Johnson 27.4
1978 Marques Johnson 27.2
2005 Tracy McGrady 27.2
2017 Stephen Curry 27.1


I don’t really feel this is the ideal or most appropriate way to compare players. Arbitrarily listing PER doesn’t really tell us much about how year guys stack up against one another.


Yeah, I’m not saying it’s everything, but Kawhi had a DPOY one of those years and he just held Giannis to 1/9 from the field as recently as 2 games ago so I don’t think his defense has fallen off too far. He’s definitely not the type of player who’s likely to be overrated by box score stats. His non box-score impact is monstrous. But even just on box score impact he’s at a level basically only reached by Jordan and LeBron over a 3-year sample. And Curry hasn’t had anything close to an all-time playoffs except for 2017.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#89 » by WarriorGM » Thu May 23, 2019 8:23 am

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
Except the Warriors have peaked higher with KD then without. That includes Steph, whose enjoyed his most efficient post season runs after he recruited KD.

The willingness of some of you to present fantasy as fact, peddle half truths, or flat out lie when it comes to KD is pathetically juvenile.


Who said the Warriors don't peak higher with KD? What is your complaint? What should be plain though is that Curry as the creator brings out more from his teammates. That does have its own downside but if translating effort to wins is the goal Curry is the guy you want starting the offense.


What looks good about being down 17-18 pts in three straight games? Losing nine games, and barely getting by and or losing important post season match ups(15-16), “looks better” than 16-1 or sweeping the finals?


Not an apples to apples comparison since one scenario has only one of Curry and KD playing and the other both. A better one: the most dominant version of the Warriors most agree is the 2017 version and that the 2018 version was slightly less overwhelming. What's the difference? I would argue one significant difference was that the the 2017 version of the team had the offense running through Curry more than the 2018 version due to the injury situations and KD being new was more willing to try and fit into the established Warriors offense. To be fair to KD there are probably benefits to a KD-centric style of play. Maybe it is less taxing and they drifted into it as the default because of that. But when it comes to unleashing the team's full potential to squash an opponent Curry should take the reins.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#90 » by oldschooled » Thu May 23, 2019 8:42 am

I'll take the guy that can give me a higher ceiling. Curry is the best player in the game right now (and probably the last 5 years).
Frank Dux wrote:
LeChosen One wrote:Doc is right. The Warriors shouldn't get any respect unless they repeat to be honest.


According to your logic, Tim Duncan doesn't deserve any respect.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#91 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 9:11 am

WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Who said the Warriors don't peak higher with KD? What is your complaint? What should be plain though is that Curry as the creator brings out more from his teammates. That does have its own downside but if translating effort to wins is the goal Curry is the guy you want starting the offense.


What looks good about being down 17-18 pts in three straight games? Losing nine games, and barely getting by and or losing important post season match ups(15-16), “looks better” than 16-1 or sweeping the finals?


Not an apples to apples comparison since one scenario has only one of Curry and KD playing and the other both. A better one: the most dominant version of the Warriors most agree is the 2017 version and that the 2018 version was slightly less overwhelming. What's the difference? I would argue one significant difference was that the the 2017 version of the team had the offense running through Curry more than the 2018 version due to the injury situations and KD being new was more willing to try and fit into the established Warriors offense. To be fair to KD there are probably benefits to a KD-centric style of play. Maybe it is less taxing and they drifted into it as the default because of that. But when it comes to unleashing the team's full potential to squash an opponent Curry should take the reins.


Mind proving the Warriors ran their offense through Steph in 16-17? Whatever that means. Because from what I’ve gathered, the burden of handling the ball and initiating GS’s offense hasn’t been Steph’s to shoulder alone since Mark Jackson was fired. Instead, GS strays from conventional positional identities, and relies on a myriad of players to occupy that role in any given situation.

Mind explaining what “KD centric play is”? I can’t seem to figure out why the Warriors have peaked highest with KD than without if his play style is detracting from the teams “full potential”?
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#92 » by WarriorGM » Thu May 23, 2019 9:46 am

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
What looks good about being down 17-18 pts in three straight games? Losing nine games, and barely getting by and or losing important post season match ups(15-16), “looks better” than 16-1 or sweeping the finals?


Not an apples to apples comparison since one scenario has only one of Curry and KD playing and the other both. A better one: the most dominant version of the Warriors most agree is the 2017 version and that the 2018 version was slightly less overwhelming. What's the difference? I would argue one significant difference was that the the 2017 version of the team had the offense running through Curry more than the 2018 version due to the injury situations and KD being new was more willing to try and fit into the established Warriors offense. To be fair to KD there are probably benefits to a KD-centric style of play. Maybe it is less taxing and they drifted into it as the default because of that. But when it comes to unleashing the team's full potential to squash an opponent Curry should take the reins.


Mind proving the Warriors ran their offense through Steph in 16-17? Whatever that means. Because from what I’ve gathered, the burden of handling the ball and initiating GS’s offense hasn’t been Steph’s to shoulder alone since Mark Jackson was fired. Instead, GS strays from conventional positional identities, and relies on a myriad of players to occupy that role in any given situation.

Mind explaining what “KD centric play is”? I can’t seem to figure out why the Warriors have peaked highest with KD than without if his play style is detracting from the teams “full potential”?


In the 2016-2017 season KD experienced an injury similar to the one he has now. They lost a few games transitioning from playing with to without KD but then started a memorable 13-0 streak to end the season which is part of the 34-4 record without KD that is commonly being brought up now. Of course without KD, Steph took up the role of conducting the offense which continued into the 2017 playoffs.


A comparison from Tim Legler of KD centered offense and Curry offense from the current season.

https://streamable.com/ivv28


An example of Curry run offense in a game 7 from a series where Kerr was earlier heard encouraging KD to pass more. In a mirror scenario to the previous year Steph had an injury coming into the playoffs so KD took over the burden of primarily carrying the offense during the playoffs. In this elimination game, however, at the end of the half even though KD had scored well the Warriors were down double digits at the half. In the following decisive period of the game, 26 of the 29 points in the critical run involved Steph in some capacity.

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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#93 » by Ooduwa » Thu May 23, 2019 1:55 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Not an apples to apples comparison since one scenario has only one of Curry and KD playing and the other both. A better one: the most dominant version of the Warriors most agree is the 2017 version and that the 2018 version was slightly less overwhelming. What's the difference? I would argue one significant difference was that the the 2017 version of the team had the offense running through Curry more than the 2018 version due to the injury situations and KD being new was more willing to try and fit into the established Warriors offense. To be fair to KD there are probably benefits to a KD-centric style of play. Maybe it is less taxing and they drifted into it as the default because of that. But when it comes to unleashing the team's full potential to squash an opponent Curry should take the reins.


Mind proving the Warriors ran their offense through Steph in 16-17? Whatever that means. Because from what I’ve gathered, the burden of handling the ball and initiating GS’s offense hasn’t been Steph’s to shoulder alone since Mark Jackson was fired. Instead, GS strays from conventional positional identities, and relies on a myriad of players to occupy that role in any given situation.

Mind explaining what “KD centric play is”? I can’t seem to figure out why the Warriors have peaked highest with KD than without if his play style is detracting from the teams “full potential”?


In the 2016-2017 season KD experienced an injury similar to the one he has now. They lost a few games transitioning from playing with to without KD but then started a memorable 13-0 streak to end the season which is part of the 34-4 record without KD that is commonly being brought up now. Of course without KD, Steph took up the role of conducting the offense which continued into the 2017 playoffs.


A comparison from Tim Legler of KD centered offense and Curry offense from the current season.

https://streamable.com/ivv28


An example of Curry run offense in a game 7 from a series where Kerr was earlier heard encouraging KD to pass more. In a mirror scenario to the previous year Steph had an injury coming into the playoffs so KD took over the burden of primarily carrying the offense during the playoffs. In this elimination game, however, at the end of the half even though KD had scored well the Warriors were down double digits at the half. In the following decisive period of the game, 26 of the 29 points in the critical run involved Steph in some capacity.




This isn’t proof. You aren’t even saying anything. Where’s the more productive “Steph lead offense” and how do we know when we’re seeing it if the team has so many different ball handlers? Shouldn’t the Warriors offense be more productive with KD out if what you’re proposing is true? Why isn’t it? Why did the Warriors lose as many games in the 15-16 post season, under a “Steph run offense”, then they’ve lost since? Why isn’t the “Steph run offense” reflect an uptick on his or his teams assist rate? How come the team has peaked in the post season with KD, if he’s hurting them?


I contend the “Steph run offense” doesn’t actually exist. It’s just something you tell yourself to feel better about your favorite player.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#94 » by cpower » Thu May 23, 2019 8:55 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Kawhi’s last 3 playoffs are all better than any playoffs of Curry’s career and much better than any playoffs except 2017 when the Warriors were never even tested. Curry meanwhile was having arguably the worst playoffs of his entire career until 5 games ago when KD went down. I don’t see how you can possibly weight 5 playoff games (4 of them near exhibitions against a bad defensive team in Portland) more than 38 playoff games from Kawhi playing at an all-time level.

what? :lol: seriously You talking about Kawhi, not Lebron?
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#95 » by dygaction » Fri May 24, 2019 4:42 am

When Kawhi and Giannis were putting up stats, Curry's team was counting rings..

iggymcfrack wrote:Top postseason PERs all-time by perimeter players other than Michael Jordan and LeBron James (who have 11 of the top 15 spots):

2017 Kawhi Leonard 31.5
2008 Chris Paul 30.7
2016 Kawhi Leonard 28.6
2019 Kawhi Leonard 28.2

1960 Elgin Baylor 28.0
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo 27.7
1984 Bernard King 27.6
2017 Kevin Durant 27.5
2012 Kevin Durant 27.5
1958 Cliff Hagan 27.5
1962 Elgin Baylor 27.4
1995 Kevin Johnson 27.4
1978 Marques Johnson 27.2
2005 Tracy McGrady 27.2
2017 Stephen Curry 27.1
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#96 » by iggymcfrack » Fri May 24, 2019 5:09 pm

dygaction wrote:When Kawhi and Giannis were putting up stats, Curry's team was counting rings..

iggymcfrack wrote:Top postseason PERs all-time by perimeter players other than Michael Jordan and LeBron James (who have 11 of the top 15 spots):

2017 Kawhi Leonard 31.5
2008 Chris Paul 30.7
2016 Kawhi Leonard 28.6
2019 Kawhi Leonard 28.2

1960 Elgin Baylor 28.0
2017 Giannis Antetokounmpo 27.7
1984 Bernard King 27.6
2017 Kevin Durant 27.5
2012 Kevin Durant 27.5
1958 Cliff Hagan 27.5
1962 Elgin Baylor 27.4
1995 Kevin Johnson 27.4
1978 Marques Johnson 27.2
2005 Tracy McGrady 27.2
2017 Stephen Curry 27.1


And do you think that has more to do with Curry doing more to help his team win or does it have more to do with him playing on teams with Draymond Green, Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson and Andre Iguodala? It’s not like Kawhi doesn’t win. He was one of the youngest Finals MVPs in NBA history. He’s the most clutch player in the entire league. And he puts up stats by dominating the playoffs. Not in long distant regular seasons like Steph.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#97 » by Admiral-Kizaru » Fri May 24, 2019 8:06 pm

Ooduwa wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Ooduwa wrote:
Mind proving the Warriors ran their offense through Steph in 16-17? Whatever that means. Because from what I’ve gathered, the burden of handling the ball and initiating GS’s offense hasn’t been Steph’s to shoulder alone since Mark Jackson was fired. Instead, GS strays from conventional positional identities, and relies on a myriad of players to occupy that role in any given situation.

Mind explaining what “KD centric play is”? I can’t seem to figure out why the Warriors have peaked highest with KD than without if his play style is detracting from the teams “full potential”?


In the 2016-2017 season KD experienced an injury similar to the one he has now. They lost a few games transitioning from playing with to without KD but then started a memorable 13-0 streak to end the season which is part of the 34-4 record without KD that is commonly being brought up now. Of course without KD, Steph took up the role of conducting the offense which continued into the 2017 playoffs.


A comparison from Tim Legler of KD centered offense and Curry offense from the current season.

https://streamable.com/ivv28


An example of Curry run offense in a game 7 from a series where Kerr was earlier heard encouraging KD to pass more. In a mirror scenario to the previous year Steph had an injury coming into the playoffs so KD took over the burden of primarily carrying the offense during the playoffs. In this elimination game, however, at the end of the half even though KD had scored well the Warriors were down double digits at the half. In the following decisive period of the game, 26 of the 29 points in the critical run involved Steph in some capacity.




This isn’t proof. You aren’t even saying anything. Where’s the more productive “Steph lead offense” and how do we know when we’re seeing it if the team has so many different ball handlers? Shouldn’t the Warriors offense be more productive with KD out if what you’re proposing is true? Why isn’t it? Why did the Warriors lose as many games in the 15-16 post season, under a “Steph run offense”, then they’ve lost since? Why isn’t the “Steph run offense” reflect an uptick on his or his teams assist rate? How come the team has peaked in the post season with KD, if he’s hurting them?


I contend the “Steph run offense” doesn’t actually exist. It’s just something you tell yourself to feel better about your favorite player.


You're that dense huh? :-?
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#98 » by Admiral-Kizaru » Fri May 24, 2019 8:08 pm

Lets see if Kawhi makes it into the Finals. A bit too early to be crowning him and the Raps. Lets see what Kawhi can do in the finals. Winner takes all. As great as Kawhi is, the Bucks are playing terrible defense on him. Why even wall him off? If you're gonna double, commit to it and blitz him and force him to make subpar decisions because he simply isn't a good playmaker. Lets see how Bucks adjust. I think they win game 6.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#99 » by WarriorGM » Fri May 24, 2019 8:34 pm

Ooduwa wrote:I contend the “Steph run offense” doesn’t actually exist. It’s just something you tell yourself to feel better about your favorite player.


I guess that's why commentators like Legler in the above and Lowe are analyzing the difference and writing articles about it and why players like Seth and PJ Tucker have remarked on the difference.
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Re: Better Player Right Now: Kawhi, Curry or Giannis 

Post#100 » by WarriorGM » Fri May 24, 2019 8:40 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Yeah, I’m not saying it’s everything, but Kawhi had a DPOY one of those years and he just held Giannis to 1/9 from the field as recently as 2 games ago so I don’t think his defense has fallen off too far. He’s definitely not the type of player who’s likely to be overrated by box score stats. His non box-score impact is monstrous. But even just on box score impact he’s at a level basically only reached by Jordan and LeBron over a 3-year sample. And Curry hasn’t had anything close to an all-time playoffs except for 2017.


In 2017, Kawhi played 2 teams in the playoffs that Curry played against two years earlier. The Spurs beat the Grizzlies and Rockets 4-2. The Warriors went 4-2 and 4-1. Cannot read too much into this but it doesn't support the contention that Kawhi has been much better than Curry in the playoffs. Oh I almost forgot, the Spurs were knocked out in 2016 by the Thunder and the Warriors beat the Thunder.

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