RealGM

This is a few months old but to my knowledge hasn't been posted. I think it is a very well put together case, in only 9 minutes versus the 1 hour monster video on the Wilt Chamberlain Archive youtube channel. Wilt is a personal favorite of mine (alongside Bird) and while I do agree Wilt's case is on the weaker side, he's still one of a handful of a guys with a legitimate case for GOAT. The list for me is (in chronological order): Russ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq and LeBron. And Shaq's case is heavily based upon denouncing Wilt's era. I think a good amount of folks would probably leave off Bird and Magic but I feel like they do both have weaker cases, which do include some speculation regarding injuries/illnesses sustained off the court.

he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

He is #1 on my list. The trump card is really the minutes. The best ability is availability.

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

In terms of individual dominance he's MDE (Most dominant ever as Shaq used to claim). Unfortunately for Wilt, it's a team game and Russell consistently beat him head to head with more talented teams (Warriors), roughly equal or inferior teams (76ers), and even teams clearly inferior in top end talent (Lakers).

Wilt facing anyone but Russell has a playoff series winning percentage at just above 80%, actually a hair better than Michael Jordan and clearly above that of LeBron or Kareem who are my other legit GOAT contenders. His misfortune was to consistently face the GOAT team player and the GOAT individual player was unable to overcome the GOAT team player despite (appropriately) individual brilliance in those matchups.

I don't have his defense rated as highly as some, more very good than great. Top 10 or so rather than top 5 defensively all time among centers.

penbeast0 wrote:

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

In terms of individual dominance he's MDE (Most dominant ever as Shaq used to claim). Unfortunately for Wilt, it's a team game and Russell consistently beat him head to head with more talented teams (Warriors), roughly equal or inferior teams (76ers), and even teams clearly inferior in top end talent (Lakers).

Wilt facing anyone but Russell has a playoff series winning percentage at just above 80%, actually a hair better than Michael Jordan and clearly above that of LeBron or Kareem who are my other legit GOAT contenders. His misfortune was to consistently face the GOAT team player and the GOAT individual player was unable to overcome the GOAT team player despite (appropriately) individual brilliance in those matchups.

I don't have his defense rated as highly as some, more very good than great. Top 10 or so rather than top 5 defensively all time among centers.

I don't think you meant it like this but I hate unnecessary compliments for uber successful players. is Russell the ultimate team player or did he just play the way he does? what could he do that he wasn't? he played great defense possibly every year DPOY worthy. he was limited scoring. he was a great position passer but he wasn't Wilt or Joker or Webber etc. he just played his role. a better Ben Wallace. success wise my 5th best player and a worthy MVP even in context he's the defensive anchor for a defensive team that was the ultimate dynasty without any players that a truly MVP caliber besides him despite their all time depth. MVP's earned for sure. but very understandable placed sporadically in All time ranks
Wilt was just better than Russ and even if he had a defensive edge not enough with a massive gap everywhere else.
I do see your point he lacks the success some would feel necessary. actually turning his lack of success into a negative to him. "how can he be so great but not win the most?". an unfortunate belief that circulates.

I don't think he has one TBH. His statistical case falls apart in the post season, where those massive scoring numbers take huge dips, and only hold up at all due to massive minutes played. Scoring monster, defensive POY type, and high hub passing Wilt didn't ever really overlap into one GOAT level player.

On top of that, the Celtics kept piling up titles, and people can talk about the talent level of the teams, but they were nothing special on offense, it was all on the back of otherworldly defense, spearheaded and commanded almost solely by Russell. Even when the Celtics were hobbled underdogs, they still pulled it off.

TLDR: I think he's a tier down because his scoring unwinded in the post season, and guys like MJ took it up a notch.

I am not a humongous b-ball junkie, but I think he’s got a DAMN GOOD GOAT case. I have him in my top five along with MJ, Kareem, Bill Russell, and LeBron James. Those five are something else.

NO-KG-AI wrote:I don't think he has one TBH. His statistical case falls apart in the post season, where those massive scoring numbers take huge dips, and only hold up at all due to massive minutes played. Scoring monster, defensive POY type, and high hub passing Wilt didn't ever really overlap into one GOAT level player.

On top of that, the Celtics kept piling up titles, and people can talk about the talent level of the teams, but they were nothing special on offense, it was all on the back of otherworldly defense, spearheaded and commanded almost solely by Russell. Even when the Celtics were hobbled underdogs, they still pulled it off.

TLDR: I think he's a tier down because his scoring unwinded in the post season, and guys like MJ took it up a notch.

NO-KG-AI wrote:but they were nothing special on offense, it was all on the back of otherworldly defense, spearheaded and commanded almost solely by Russell.

When did this become a thing? They were a great offense until Cousy's final 1 or 2 seasons

NO-KG-AI wrote:I don't think he has one TBH. His statistical case falls apart in the post season, where those massive scoring numbers take huge dips, and only hold up at all due to massive minutes played. Scoring monster, defensive POY type, and high hub passing Wilt didn't ever really overlap into one GOAT level player.

On top of that, the Celtics kept piling up titles, and people can talk about the talent level of the teams, but they were nothing special on offense, it was all on the back of otherworldly defense, spearheaded and commanded almost solely by Russell. Even when the Celtics were hobbled underdogs, they still pulled it off.

TLDR: I think he's a tier down because his scoring unwinded in the post season, and guys like MJ took it up a notch.

Wilt's scoring dropped in postseason because he played in his prime over half of his games against teams with -4.0 rDRtg. That's absurd number of games played against absolutely elite defenses. That's more than any superstar center ever. He still put up elite numbers:

47.5 mpg, 28.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 28.1 ppg on 50.8% FG, 50.6% FT, 52.2% TS (+3.84 rTS%)

Compare this to other greats:

Kareem: 44.1 mpg, 15.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 33.3 ppg on 54.5% FG, 72.2% FT, 56.9% TS (+5.28 rTS%)
Shaq: 41.1 mpg, 13.3 rpg, 2.9 apg, 3.3 tov, 26.9 ppg on 55.8% FG, 53.5% FT and 56.9% TS (+4.59% rTS)
Hakeem: 42.0 mpg, 10.2 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.4 tov, 24.1 ppg on 48.9% FG, 75.2% FT and 53.9% TS (+0.30% rTS)
Duncan: 41.7 mpg, 13.7 rpg, 3.2 apg, 3.0 tov, 23.6 ppg on 47.8% FG, 68.0% FT and 52.7% TS (+0.50% rTS)

Kareem played 26% of his playoffs games against elite defenses in his prime, Shaq played 31%, Hakeem 15%, Duncan 17%. Wilt? 52% and he looks better here than Hakeem and Duncan, only worse than two GOAT offensive centers in Kareem and Shaq (and not by much). He's better rebounder and defender than Kareem and Shaq though, so overall I'm not even sure he's worse playoffs performer than them.

penbeast0 wrote:

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

In terms of individual dominance he's MDE (Most dominant ever as Shaq used to claim). Unfortunately for Wilt, it's a team game and Russell consistently beat him head to head with more talented teams (Warriors), roughly equal or inferior teams (76ers), and even teams clearly inferior in top end talent (Lakers).

Wilt facing anyone but Russell has a playoff series winning percentage at just above 80%, actually a hair better than Michael Jordan and clearly above that of LeBron or Kareem who are my other legit GOAT contenders. His misfortune was to consistently face the GOAT team player and the GOAT individual player was unable to overcome the GOAT team player despite (appropriately) individual brilliance in those matchups.

I don't have his defense rated as highly as some, more very good than great. Top 10 or so rather than top 5 defensively all time among centers.

These arguments about team success always feel flat.

Russell played in a dynasty with a team that had 7 years to meld together before Wilt went to the 76ers, coached by the best coach ever who developed a system that works, with HoFers staked on his team during his prime. Wilt played 1 year with comparable players in 69, and that was under a bad coach that didn't use him well, and with no time for the players to adapt to the system.
What kills me the most is how people use this justification to argue against Wilt, but nobody would dream of saying Dirk is better than LBJ at their peaks. LBJ in the middle of his peak (09/13) got stomped by Dirk's team when Dirk was an old man... But, I've never met anyone who argued Dirk was a better individual-player or team-player than LBJ.

As a side-note, Wilt's 76ers were dominating the Celtics in 68 before MLK got assassinated - the younger and more inexperienced (regarding facing adversity) 76ers collapsed mentally and lost a 3-1 lead despite being the far better team. I don't think Wilt's loss in that series was related to his play having less impact than Russell.

NO-KG-AI wrote:His statistical case falls apart in the post season

Wilt failed to make the playoffs ONCE in his career and lost only to the champs in every playoffs but ONE. Wilt was never the main reason his team lost and many times there was legitimate reasons it was not his fault. Early in his career he had some pretty terrible coaches (and teams). If Wilt was able to stick with one of his good coaches for a stretch, I think he would have gotten more titles for sure. But he was also a hair away from multiple titles as it stands.

Wilt's Postseason career:

1960 - Warriors Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Rookie coach Neil Johnston who was pretty useless
1961 - Warriors Lost in 1st round to Nationals. Last season with Neil.
1962 - Warriors Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Wilt tied game 7 with a 3 point play in the waning seconds but a last second shot won it. Wilt had a decent coach that year (Frank McGuire) but he didn't stay. This is Wilt's 50ppg season
1963 - Warriors Missed Playoffs. New player-coach Dolph Schayes, who did not work out (too soft to handle an alpha personality like Wilt).
1964 - Warriors Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Coached by Alex Hannum, who Wilt initially clashed with but ultimately respected. Unfortunately Wilt was traded at the beginning of next season
1965 - Sixers Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Wilt put them up at the end of game 7 but his teammate threw the ball away on an inbound pass ("Havlicek stoke the ball"). Coached by Irv Kosloff who was another meh coach.
1966 - Sixers Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Still coached by Irv.
1967 - Sixers Won Championship. Coached by Jack Ramsey who was a good coach.
1968 - Sixers Lost in ECF to Celtics (eventual champs). Coached by Jack. Teammates inexplicably did not pass the ball to Wilt in the deciding 4th quarter of game 7, where they lost by 4 points.
1969 - Lakers Lost Finals to Celtics. Wilt took a rest at the beginning of the 4th and his coach didn't put him back in, in the deciding minutes despite Wilt asking back in. His coach (Butch van Breda Kolff) was fired after for that blunder.
1970 - Lakers Lost in Finals to Knicks. Coached by Joe Mullaney (meh coach)
1971 - Lakers Lost Finals to Bucks (eventual champs). Coached by Joe Mullaney (meh coach)
1972 - Lakers Won Championship. Coached by Bill Sharman
1973 - Lakers Lost Finals to Knicks. Coached by Bill Sharman

Celtics not only had talent year after year due to drafting rules back then, but they also pioneered modern NBA defenses not just with Russ but legendary coach Red Auerbach, and John Havlicek I think played a big role as well.

Now I'm not saying you can't make the case that Wilt wasn't a great teammate or that he could have done more, but he didn't have much to work with earlier in his career, so several of his best years were more or less wasted. The Sixers/Lakers years you can argue he should have got more titles, but the Celtics did have 2 of the best 5 players at the time (Russ and Havlicek) and the later Knicks team was disgustingly talented as well.

So yeah Wilt is a bit light on titles for a GOAT candidate but he got real close many times and was on a contender pretty much every single team he played on regardless of talent. How many players can say that?

kendogg wrote:

Watch on YouTube

This is a few months old but to my knowledge hasn't been posted. I think it is a very well put together case, in only 9 minutes versus the 1 hour monster video on the Wilt Chamberlain Archive youtube channel. Wilt is a personal favorite of mine (alongside Bird) and while I do agree Wilt's case is on the weaker side, he's still one of a handful of a guys with a legitimate case for GOAT. The list for me is (in chronological order): Russ, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq and LeBron. And Shaq's case is heavily based upon denouncing Wilt's era. I think a good amount of folks would probably leave off Bird and Magic but I feel like they do both have weaker cases, which do include some speculation regarding injuries/illnesses sustained off the court.

Not just Wilt's era but the rules of the time. Wilt wasn't quite as dominant when the lane was widened.

The other thing regarding the era is that as time goes on and teams get smarter and the game is contested at a higher level. We see more and more examples where teams and players that go full bore racking up wins and numbers in the regular season are overtaken by those that conserved energy for the playoffs. So when you look at stats that show Wilt was playing 48 minutes per game, you are forced to conclude that either he had superhuman endurance that blows away that of any modern player or that the average game in the 1960s was not played at very high intensity. With a widened lane, Wilt's 3 highest-scoring seasons on a per-36 minute basis were 27.6, 25.5, and 23.4, which are great but not as otherworldly (especially considering the much higher pace of play back then).

NO-KG-AI wrote: Scoring monster, defensive POY type, and high hub passing Wilt didn't ever really overlap into one GOAT level player.

.

Yep this is a big key for me. Wilt absolutely had the potential to be GOAT, but he put it all together so rarely. Russell trumped Wilt again and again was his sole concern was to play in a way where his team came out on top. Wilt was motivated by all sorts of other things. That single-mindedness of Russell is a big part of why he was the better basketball player.

Texas Chuck wrote:

NO-KG-AI wrote: Scoring monster, defensive POY type, and high hub passing Wilt didn't ever really overlap into one GOAT level player.

.

Yep this is a big key for me. Wilt absolutely had the potential to be GOAT, but he put it all together so rarely. Russell trumped Wilt again and again was his sole concern was to play in a way where his team came out on top. Wilt was motivated by all sorts of other things. That single-mindedness of Russell is a big part of why he was the better basketball player.

Yeah, I feel similarly about Kobe where the (actual and not just based on reputation) all-NBA defender version and the #1 option on offense version of him had little overlap.

People talk about recency bias a lot but there's just as much, if not more, of this sort of bias where players get pumped up by amalgamating their best attributes from various years. This happens on a team level too where people will just list the names of players without considering where those players were relative to their prime in a given year.

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

You say Wilt has an amazing case for GOAT..and list out many reasons why.

But end your post by saying you have both Kareem and LeBron ranked higher...what's your rationale for that?

I've got Wilt barely ahead of Kareem because
a) Wilt was a better passer
b) Wilt was a better defender
c) Wilt was a better rebounder
d) Wilt was a better scorer
e) Wilt was a better shot blocker
f) When they played head to head, Wilt had a 14-13, got outscored slightly by Kareem but out-rebounded Kareem..Wilt's team beat Kareem's Bucks in the 72 western conference finals...all despite the fact that Wilt was at the tail end of his career, past his prime whereas Kareem was a spring chicken and literally in his prime

Wilt over LeBron isn't really much of a debate IMO. Wilt scored 100 points in a single game, he played center yet never once fouled out and averaged 48.5 minutes for an entire season...they only play 48 minutes per game!

You've got LeBron ahead of Wilt. Wilt broke a player's toe by dunking on him! LeBron does this:



I just don't see how anyone could rank LeBron ahead of Wilt..unless they had severe recency bias..

Only guys I think can truly make a case for being the GOAT are: Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic.

KobesScarf wrote:

NO-KG-AI wrote:but they were nothing special on offense, it was all on the back of otherworldly defense, spearheaded and commanded almost solely by Russell.

When did this become a thing? They were a great offense until Cousy's final 1 or 2 seasons

Let's fact check this.

As a preliminary, Cousy played 13 seasons (just like Russell). Before Russell, Cousy's teams never won anything, finishing 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, and 2nd in their conference out of 4 teams. That was 6 seasons of being basically a 1 and out treadmill teams for Cousy (and for coach Red Auerbach) with good offenses and mediocre defenses. Add Russell and Heinsohn (and later others), subtract Ed Macauley and you get mediocre offenses and the GOAT defensive team of all time despite 3 of 5 starters staying the same for the next few years.

Now let's look at the last 7 seasons of Cousy's career (more than half by years though he played less minutes as he aged). This should include 5 seasons of "great offense."

1957 5th/8
1958 7th /8
1959 5th/8
1960 5th/8
1961 8th/8
1962 7th/9
1963 9th/9

I'm not seeing any "great offense" there. I'm seeing a fast paced offense that led to a lot of their offensive weapons getting overrated based on jacking a lot of shots but one that was mediocre at best at actually producing efficient points.

*and Russell's rebounding possibly getting a little overrated too though it's clear that no one but Wilt was in his class as a rebounder. Still Wilt may have had higher reb rates though Russell had a higher career reb/minute rate, hard to tell without accurate team rebound numbers which weren't kept.

penbeast0 wrote: 1957 5th/8
1958 7th /8
1959 5th/8
1960 5th/8
1961 8th/8
1962 7th/9
1963 9th/9

57 1st
58 2nd
59 1st
60 1st
61 3rd
62 3rd
63 3rd

Those are the numbers I see. Unless you're using possession estimates which are shaky at best

Using BB-R.com's Off Rtg. I think you are using points scored which is more pace based than efficiency.

Hal14 wrote:

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

You say Wilt has an amazing case for GOAT..and list out many reasons why.

But end your post by saying you have both Kareem and LeBron ranked higher...what's your rationale for that?

I've got Wilt barely ahead of Kareem because
a) Wilt was a better passer
b) Wilt was a better defender
c) Wilt was a better rebounder
d) Wilt was a better scorer
e) Wilt was a better shot blocker
f) When they played head to head, Wilt had a 14-13, got outscored slightly by Kareem but out-rebounded Kareem..Wilt's team beat Kareem's Bucks in the 72 western conference finals...all despite the fact that Wilt was at the tail end of his career, past his prime whereas Kareem was a spring chicken and literally in his prime

Wilt over LeBron isn't really much of a debate IMO. Wilt scored 100 points in a single game, he played center yet never once fouled out and averaged 48.5 minutes for an entire season...they only play 48 minutes per game!

You've got LeBron ahead of Wilt. Wilt broke a player's toe by dunking on him! LeBron does this:

Watch on YouTube

I just don't see how anyone could rank LeBron ahead of Wilt..unless they had severe recency bias..

Only guys I think can truly make a case for being the GOAT are: Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic.

Wilt’s all-time playoff record for series was 18-11 and he missed the playoffs right in the heart of his prime.

LeBron’s playoff series record is 35-10 and he led one of the worst supporting casts ever to 66 wins.

In terms of just their impact on winning, LeBron is vastly superior and that doesn’t even factor in how much tougher his competition has been.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Hal14 wrote:

GYK wrote:he has an amazing GOAT argument in my opinion.
6 Finals in 15 seasons.
4x MVP
7x All-NBA 1st Team(often over the MVP)
13x All-Star
his stats are mythical but some have paced adjusted is career to 26.8/12/3.8 on .58% shooting at 40mpg.
but even still
7x scoring champ
11x rebound champ
9x FG% leader
his team averaged as the 3rd best defense in his career. we know his individual defense is DPOY worthy.
just logically a player who is a scoring/rebounding champ leading the league in FG% while playing great defense is likely the GOAT.
he's officially my 4th Greatest of All Time behind Jordan/Kareem/Lebron.

You say Wilt has an amazing case for GOAT..and list out many reasons why.

But end your post by saying you have both Kareem and LeBron ranked higher...what's your rationale for that?

I've got Wilt barely ahead of Kareem because
a) Wilt was a better passer
b) Wilt was a better defender
c) Wilt was a better rebounder
d) Wilt was a better scorer
e) Wilt was a better shot blocker
f) When they played head to head, Wilt had a 14-13, got outscored slightly by Kareem but out-rebounded Kareem..Wilt's team beat Kareem's Bucks in the 72 western conference finals...all despite the fact that Wilt was at the tail end of his career, past his prime whereas Kareem was a spring chicken and literally in his prime

Wilt over LeBron isn't really much of a debate IMO. Wilt scored 100 points in a single game, he played center yet never once fouled out and averaged 48.5 minutes for an entire season...they only play 48 minutes per game!

You've got LeBron ahead of Wilt. Wilt broke a player's toe by dunking on him! LeBron does this:

Watch on YouTube

I just don't see how anyone could rank LeBron ahead of Wilt..unless they had severe recency bias..

Only guys I think can truly make a case for being the GOAT are: Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic.

Wilt’s all-time playoff record for series was 18-11 and he missed the playoffs right in the heart of his prime.

LeBron’s playoff series record is 35-10 and he led one of the worst supporting casts ever to 66 wins.

In terms of just their impact on winning, LeBron is vastly superior and that doesn’t even factor in how much tougher his competition has been.

hmm, so Wilt only missed the playoffs once his entire career? Sounds like you're making an argument FOR Wilt, rather than against him..lol

Spouting off Wilt and LeBron's playoff records is a weak argument because

1) If we're just basing everything off record in playoffs..well jeez, I suppose Robert freakin Horry is a top 15 player all time, lol..

2) Of course Wilt is going to have a worse playoff record..the dude was going up against Bill Russell's great Celtics teams of the 60's his whole career (arguably the greatest team of all time) and going up against a spring chicken Kareem when Kareem was in his prime and Wilt was in his twilight...compared to LeBron who's had the benefit of being able to coast through the easy eastern conference on his path to the finals every year..

Speaking of playoff performance, how about the fact that LeBron couldn't get his team past a weak Orlando Magic team in the Eastern conference finals in 2009?

Or, how about this game where LeBron (in his prime) got outplayed by Kobe (tail end of his career) despite the fact that Kobe was throwing up and was better off in a hospital as opposed to a basketball court..Kobe nails a huge clutch jumper over LeBron and shut down LeBron defensively, LeBron missed a bunch of weak shots in crunch time..again, Kobe was old and sick as a dog, LeBron's in his prime..both with relatively equal supporting casts, Lakers playing without Bynum:



So yeah, I've got Wilt and Kobe ahead of LeBron..