Am I wrong in thinking 2019 Kawhi trumps any Kobe season?

[bledredwine]

I haven't seen any player in the last few years that was as much of a beast as Kobe at his peak.

I don't care what your efficiency stats say. Volume scoring is a valuable skill to winning close games, as evidenced by recent choking from a few of the top superstars, usually touted for their amazing efficiency, in this year's playoffs.

Where was that efficiency when they needed it? Oh right, because efficiency doesn't indicate that a player can score efficiently at any time. It more often indicates cherry-picked shots and possibly taking advantage of lower (non-playoff) levels of competition.

Kawhi, while amazing, is not Kobe. Kobe often slaughtered other teams single-handedly. Did he make dumb decisions at times? Absolutely, but I'm taking Kobe if I want to win.

I haven't seen any players get unecessarily crapped on nearly as much as Kobe and Iverson (not pointing at you OP, just the false stigmas here, also exception Durant). Realistically, these guys were elite and won games, efficient or not. Why? They held teammates accountable and got shots off, regardless of how elite their defender was.

[Jaivl]

Kawhi is scoring at a higher volume than any playoff run from Kobe :shrug:

[iggymcfrack]

2016 Kawhi, 2017 Kawhi, and 2019 Kawhi all trump any Kobe season, any Durant season, any Bird season, any Oscar season, and any Harden season. He’s massively undervalued.

[iggymcfrack]

I haven't seen any player in the last few years that was as much of a beast as Kobe at his peak.

I don't care what your efficiency stats say. Volume scoring is a valuable skill to winning close games, as evidenced by recent choking from a few of the top superstars, usually touted for their amazing efficiency, in this year's playoffs.

Where was that efficiency when they needed it? Oh right, because efficiency doesn't indicate that a player can score efficiently at any time. It more often indicates cherry-picked shots and possibly taking advantage of lower (non-playoff) levels of competition.

Kawhi, while amazing, is not Kobe. Kobe often slaughtered other teams single-handedly. Did he make dumb decisions at times? Absolutely, but I'm taking Kobe if I want to win.

I haven't seen any players get unecessarily crapped on nearly as much as Kobe and Iverson (not pointing at you OP, just the false stigmas here, also exception Durant). Realistically, these guys were elite and won games, efficient or not. Why? They held teammates accountable and got shots off, regardless of how elite their defender was.

Kawhi has the exact same number of points per 100 this playoffs as Kobe did in his highest scoring playoffs. Only Kobe needed 6.5 more FGA to get the same number of points. SIX AND A HALF. That’s absurd.

[bledredwine]

I haven't seen any player in the last few years that was as much of a beast as Kobe at his peak.

I don't care what your efficiency stats say. Volume scoring is a valuable skill to winning close games, as evidenced by recent choking from a few of the top superstars, usually touted for their amazing efficiency, in this year's playoffs.

Where was that efficiency when they needed it? Oh right, because efficiency doesn't indicate that a player can score efficiently at any time. It more often indicates cherry-picked shots and possibly taking advantage of lower (non-playoff) levels of competition.

Kawhi, while amazing, is not Kobe. Kobe often slaughtered other teams single-handedly. Did he make dumb decisions at times? Absolutely, but I'm taking Kobe if I want to win.

I haven't seen any players get unecessarily crapped on nearly as much as Kobe and Iverson (not pointing at you OP, just the false stigmas here, also exception Durant). Realistically, these guys were elite and won games, efficient or not. Why? They held teammates accountable and got shots off, regardless of how elite their defender was.

Kawhi has the exact same number of points per 100 this playoffs as Kobe did in his highest scoring playoffs. Only Kobe needed 6.5 more FGA to get the same number of points. SIX AND A HALF. That’s absurd.

I'm sorry, but it's a hell of a lot easier to score now more than any time in history. I've never seen the floor so spaced out as it is today, with fewer bigs waiting at the rim. I also haven't seen such inflated stats since I've been alive. I wasn't around in the early 70's and before.

I do think that Kawhi is more efficient.
But trying to compare Kobe and Kawhi statistically is fool's gold.

I would take Kobe 10/10 times. Even when he athletically declined like the below video.


and prime Kobe, just a better all-around player than Kawhi. Keep in mind - this is one of only eleven 50 point playoff games since 1984, not including Jordan (who had 8). Kawhi doesn't have one yet.

Watch on YouTube

He also did it against damned good teams

Watch on YouTube

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Lets put it this way: When the only advantage Kobe has over somebody is his playmaking, he's not going to be better.

Kawhi is better at pretty much everything else.

[bledredwine]

Lets put it this way: When the only advantage Kobe has over somebody is his playmaking, he's not going to be better.

Kawhi is better at pretty much everything else.

And Tim Duncan is the GOAT

Kobe has better ball handling, footwork, post game, and ability to hit crazy shots, no question. He is definitely a better playmaker.
Kobe all day.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Lets put it this way: When the only advantage Kobe has over somebody is his playmaking, he's not going to be better.

Kawhi is better at pretty much everything else.

And Tim Duncan is the GOAT

Kobe has better ball handling, footwork, post game, and ability to hit crazy shots, no question. He is definitely a better playmaker.
Kobe all day.

What is with your obsession about Tim Duncan? This thread is not even about him lol.

Kawhi is the better shooter, more efficient scorer in any era due to better shot selection, turns the ball over less, better defensive player, better rebounder, equal ball handler. Kawhi all day.

[reignfire]

he still needs to win a MVP first, you cant coast in RS and be the best player for the year

Finals MVP > MVP

[cpower]

he still needs to win a MVP first, you cant coast in RS and be the best player for the year

Finals MVP > MVP

Iggy > Kawhi

[reignfire]

he still needs to win a MVP first, you cant coast in RS and be the best player for the year

Finals MVP > MVP

Iggy > Kawhi

Kawhi has a Finals MVP smart guy.

[cpower]

Finals MVP > MVP

Iggy > Kawhi

Kawhi has a Finals MVP smart guy.

Iggy is about to have 2.

[Odinn21]

Season as a whole? Kawhi needs to actually care about regular season.

As for playoff run? We should wait until the postseason is over.
Kawhi in 2019 playoffs; 17 games 31.4 ppg 8.4 rpg 3.6 apg 1.5 spg 0.5 bpg on .631 ts (+7.9 rts to the team) team average 105.2 ppg
Kobe in 2008, 2009, 2010 playoffs; 67 games 29.8 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.5 apg 1.6 spg 0.7 bpg on .569 ts (+1.6 rts to the team) team average 102.0 ppg

Kawhi has been hot after game 3 of Orlando series.
Kawhi in last 14 games of 2019 playoffs; 32.6 ppg 8.7 rpg 3.6 apg 1.6 spg 0.6 bpg on .636 ts (team average 105.6 ppg)
Kobe in first 15 games of 2008 playoffs; 31.9 ppg 6.1 rpg 5.8 apg 1.3 spg 0.5 bpg on .605 ts (team average 105.9 ppg) *
Kobe 4th-19th, 16 games of 2009 playoffs; 31.6 ppg 5.4 rpg 4.6 apg 1.7 spg 0.9 bpg on .586 ts (team average 102.1 ppg)
Kobe 7th-16th, 10 games of 2010 playoffs; 33.0 ppg 5.8 rpg 7.3 apg 0.8 spg 1.0 bpg on .627 ts (team average 111.8 ppg)

2008 is a great example. Kawhi has been dominating the EC. But his numbers and impact can go down like Giannis in 2019 ECF or Kobe in 2008 NBA Finals. And before dominating the WC in the playoffs, Kobe didn't coast around and won an MVP with great stats and impact.

Yes, Kawhi is a great defender. Kobe became lazy in that department later in his career. And he's more efficient than Kobe. But let's not act like Kobe hadn't gone hot in the playoffs like Kawhi did in 2019. Kobe dominated the WC in 3 straight seasons, both in regular season and postseason.

---

I'm not saying there's not a chance for Kawhi. We just need it to be done for some actual closure on opinions.

[reignfire]

Iggy > Kawhi

Kawhi has a Finals MVP smart guy.

Iggy is about to have 2.

Kawhi is about to have 2.

[cpower]

Kawhi has a Finals MVP smart guy.

Iggy is about to have 2.

Kawhi is about to have 2.

guess we will find out...

if raps can close out obviously

[Pelly24]

Man...it just feels like Kawhi's in the God Tier with MJ and LeBron to me, in a way that Kobe never really was.

It feels as though if Kawhi got up on the 2006 Phoenix Suns the way Kobe did, the Lakers aren't losing that series.

To me, Kobe is in that Steph tier for inverse reasons. Steph is historically great, incredible in the regular season. In the postseason his performance—which has been possibly hindered by KD being there—is more in line with the Kobe's than MJ-LeBron level. Kobe had superstar regular seasons and kept that up, if not upped it a bit, in the playoffs.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Man...it just feels like Kawhi's in the God Tier with MJ and LeBron to me, in a way that Kobe never really was.

It feels as though if Kawhi got up on the 2006 Phoenix Suns the way Kobe did, the Lakers aren't losing that series.

To me, Kobe is in that Steph tier for inverse reasons. Steph is historically great, incredible in the regular season. In the postseason his performance—which has been possibly hindered by KD being there—is more in line with the Kobe's than MJ-LeBron level. Kobe had superstar regular seasons and kept that up, if not upped it a bit, in the playoffs.

Accurate post, well said.

[Winsome Gerbil]

I don't see a single season from Kobe I'd feel confident and saying, "yeah this season he was clearly a better player than 2019 Kawhi."

Obviously the Kawhi Leonard hype is OTT from a lot of people now, but I think you can make an argument he's a better offensive AND defensive player than Kobe in any of Kobe's seasons(except maybe 06 Kobe for offense).

Am I wrong?

Do you mean the part time player who may have even be a slight negative defensively for 5 months Kawhi?

Or do you mean the Kawhi of the last 3 weeks. In which case I would imagine you could find more than a few 3 week stretches fo Kobe going insane as well.

[TheGOATRises007]

I don't see a single season from Kobe I'd feel confident and saying, "yeah this season he was clearly a better player than 2019 Kawhi."

Obviously the Kawhi Leonard hype is OTT from a lot of people now, but I think you can make an argument he's a better offensive AND defensive player than Kobe in any of Kobe's seasons(except maybe 06 Kobe for offense).

Am I wrong?

Do you mean the part player who may have even be a slight negative defensively for 5 months Kawhi?

Or do you mean the Kawhi of the last 3 weeks. In which case I would imagine you could find more than a few 3 week stretches fo Kobe going insane as well.

I weigh playoffs heavily.

I don't think Kobe's ever had a 3 week stretch in the playoffs like this.

[Strepbacter]

Nah. Kawhi's numbers are massively inflated from playing in the weakest defensive environment in the history of modern basketball, and from playing in a five out system. Bryant played with horrific spacing in comparison, and spent a huge portion of his prime in the GOAT defensive era. And his regular season doesn't even compare. It's hard to ignore a guy playing sixty games, sitting out every back to back, and having his team go 17-5 with a +11 MOV without him. Hell, they had a better winning % in games WITHOUT Kawhi (77%) than with him (68%). He was also #29 in RPM, #119 in RAPM, and had a on/off of +5.4. Like, are these dudes really going to ignore the incredible gap in RS durability/play, and impact?