Am I wrong in thinking 2019 Kawhi trumps any Kobe season?

[Strepbacter]

You're mixing two different stats there.

Nonetheless, that's not a great argument for Bryant when Kawhi's big, big advantage is on defense.

No, I'm not. It's individual ORTG. I'm adjusting their overall efficiency for the era they played in/comp they played. It's no different
than looking at relative TS.

I wasn't making an argument. I was merely pointing out that his overall post-season efficiency hasn't been better than Bryant's best.

Individual ORtg is a boxscore stat and you're comparing it to team ORtg. You should probably use team ORtg... which paints Kobe on an even more favourable light.

09 Kobe PO on court ORtg - 113.4
01 Kobe - 113.0 *not really the same role*
19 Harden - 114.0
19 Kawhi - 113.4

Anyway, I do agree that Kobe is most assuredly a better offensive player.

Yeah, I know individual ORTG is a box-score stat. I also know that TS% is a box-score stat. I'm adjusting their overall efficiency--as measured by the box-score--against their environment/comp in the same way that everybody does with scoring efficiency.

If I wanted to argue that Bryant was the higher impact player offensively, I would have pointed out non-box score numbers like on-court ORTG, or I could have even pointed out that those Laker teams had much better post-season offenses, but that has nothing to do with my initial point. It was strictly about their overall efficiency.

I wouldn't use raw on-court ORtg either. Again, you have to look at the defenses they played, so it would make a lot more sense to look at their on-court ORTG relative to their defensive comp

[Strepbacter]

No, I'm not. It's individual ORTG. I'm adjusting their overall efficiency for the era they played in/comp they played. It's no different
than looking at relative TS.

I wasn't making an argument. I was merely pointing out that his overall post-season efficiency hasn't been better than Bryant's best.

Individual ORtg is a boxscore stat and you're comparing it to team ORtg. You should probably use team ORtg... which paints Kobe on an even more favourable light.

09 Kobe PO on court ORtg - 113.4
01 Kobe - 113.0 *not really the same role*
19 Harden - 114.0
19 Kawhi - 113.4

Anyway, I do agree that Kobe is most assuredly a better offensive player.

wait, isn't he talking about individual ORTG vs opposing team DRTG?

yes.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Nah. Kawhi's numbers are massively inflated from playing in the weakest defensive environment in the history of modern basketball, and from playing in a five out system. Bryant played with horrific spacing in comparison, and spent a huge portion of his prime in the GOAT defensive era. And his regular season doesn't even compare. It's hard to ignore a guy playing sixty games, sitting out every back to back, and having his team go 17-5 with a +11 MOV without him. Hell, they had a better winning % in games WITHOUT Kawhi (77%) than with him (68%). He was also #29 in RPM, #119 in RAPM, and had a on/off of +5.4. Like, are these dudes really going to ignore the incredible gap in RS durability/play, and impact?

Kawhi has no second star, no championship proven system. The triangle offense with two of the greatest low post scorers ever in shaq and pau gasol didn't have great spacing? Kobe was always privileged with the triangle, with shaq and even Gasol

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Yeah you definitely are. This is a supremely disrespectful thread.

2008 Kobe led a team with 27 games of Pau to a 7.3 SRS. The only consistent starters were Fisher, Radmanovic and Odom.

2019 Kawhi led the Raptors with Lowry, Green, Siakam plus 26 games of Marc to only a 5.5 SRS and missed 22 games along the way.

The 2019 Raptors were better than the 2008 Lakers at every position more or less. Lowry >> Fisher, Green >> Radmanovic, Siakam > Odom, full season of Ibaka >> 35 games of Bynum. Only Pau > Marc if at all for the 25 games they played.

Yet Kobe took that Laker team to a far higher height. 2008 Kobe is a top 12 peak of all time, comes close to Bill Walton level lift. Kawhi, and no active player really, deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as him for their 2019 level.

The level of insults towards Kobe on this board seriously make me rage.

Who did kobe beat in 2009 though? The 2009 magic are not any better than 2019 76ers or 2019 bucks. Dwight Howard is a piece of **** as a 1st option.

2010 Lakers are as stacked as it gets

Dominating low post scorer in gasol, goat level defensive player in Ron artest, all around solid offensive player in odom.

Pau gasol > Kyle Lowry

Odom = siakam, better offense from Odom better defense from Siakam.

Artest > green (laughable actually)

[Jaqua92]

Do you mean the part player who may have even be a slight negative defensively for 5 months Kawhi?

Or do you mean the Kawhi of the last 3 weeks. In which case I would imagine you could find more than a few 3 week stretches fo Kobe going insane as well.

I weigh playoffs heavily.

I don't think Kobe's ever had a 3 week stretch in the playoffs like this.

19 game stretch in 2010 post-season: 31/7/6/1/1/59% TS/119 ORTG/34% USG/28 PER
20 game stretch in 2009 post-season: 31/5/5/2/1/57% TS/119 ORTG/34% USG/28 PER
15 game stretch in 2008 post-season: 32/6/5//2/ 61% TS/119 ORTG/33% USG/27 PER

Or the entire 2001 postseason where he put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 on elite efficiency (rTS of +5.7 and a 116 ORTG against average opp defensive rating of 100), played great defense, and led a team with peak Shaq in WS, WS48, BPM, On-court rating, On/OFF and was #1 in playoff RAPM.

This place is unbelievable.

You have people saying Kawhi is at Peak Jordan and Lebron level right now.

You are basically arguing against yourself at this point. You cannot reason with takes that laughably delusional

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Jaivl]

I weigh playoffs heavily.

I don't think Kobe's ever had a 3 week stretch in the playoffs like this.

19 game stretch in 2010 post-season: 31/7/6/1/1/59% TS/119 ORTG/34% USG/28 PER
20 game stretch in 2009 post-season: 31/5/5/2/1/57% TS/119 ORTG/34% USG/28 PER
15 game stretch in 2008 post-season: 32/6/5//2/ 61% TS/119 ORTG/33% USG/27 PER

Or the entire 2001 postseason where he put up 29+/7+/6+/2/1 on elite efficiency (rTS of +5.7 and a 116 ORTG against average opp defensive rating of 100), played great defense, and led a team with peak Shaq in WS, WS48, BPM, On-court rating, On/OFF and was #1 in playoff RAPM.

This place is unbelievable.

You have people saying Kawhi is at Peak Jordan and Lebron level right now.

You are basically arguing against yourself at this point. You cannot reason with takes that laughably delusional

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

You have a person saying that. A person ≠ people.

[O_6]

I think it depends on the question. Kobe's 2009 season was him at his most complete imo.

NBA Champion / Finals MVP
#2 in the MVP vote
65-17 Record (7.11 SRS)
Elite Advanced Metrics + RAPM data
Legendary WCF: 34.0 PPG -- 5.8 RPG -- 5.8 APG -- 2.2 TOV (.627 TS% -- +8.3 relTS%)
Played 105 out of 105 total games

I think 2009 Kobe was certainly a better season than any full season that Kawhi has had imo, we can revisit it after the Finals. I think 2009 Kobe vs. 2019 Kawhi is arguable in terms of who the better player is. I think Kawhi has a clear strength advantage which shows up most on D and he has a more reliable jumper, making him the more consistent 2-way player. I think 2009 Kobe was a far superior playmaker and post player, making him a more diverse offensive threat.

Kawhi's performance vs. the Sixers/Bucks these last 12 games have been special. He's playing at a historic level, it's been a pleasure to watch. This is what his numbers are during this 12 game stretch...

Kawhi: 32.9 PPG -- 9.1 RPG -- 3.9 APG -- 3.0 TOV (.616 TS% -- +5.6 relTS%)

These numbers are just insane against quality competition. He's scoring almost 33 PPG on a relative efficiency of 5.6% better than the regular season league average TS. But Kobe has had a couple of stretches in the playoffs similar to this one, most memorably in 2001 and 2010. The 2001 stretch is Kobe's 11 game run where the Lakers swept through the West gauntlet of POR/SAC/SAS. The 2010 stretch is a 12 game run from the final game of his 1st round series vs. the young Thunder through his 1st game of the Finals vs. the Celtics (destroying talented Utah and Phoenix squads in between).

Kobe
2001: 31.6 PPG -- 7.0 RPG -- 6.2 APG -- 3.0 TOV (.577 TS% -- +5.9 relTS%)
2010: 32.7 PPG -- 6.0 RPG -- 6.8 APG -- 3.3 TOV (.617 TS% -- +7.4 relTS%)

In both of his hot stretches, Kobe was scoring even more efficiently than Kawhi has during his last 12 games while being a significantly better passer/creator. As fantastic as Kawhi is, Kobe is still the more complete and dangerous offensive player. The fact that he has 2 "God-mode" stretches that are 9 years apart shows what a special player he was for a long time.

2019 Kawhi vs. Prime Kobe is a worthy discussion imo. But let's not forget how good Kobe was and how he was more than capable of going on similarly dominant runs to the one we're seeing right now from Kawhi. In fact, he had a couple of stretches that were clearly superior offensively. I do think Kawhi has the clear defensive edge but Kobe was a good defender in the playoffs.

--

Since Kawhi and Kobe's 12 game playoff stretches looked so impressive, I decided to compare them to Jordan in the playoffs.

Jordan
'88-'91: 34.5 PPG -- 6.9 RPG -- 7.1 APG -- 3.4 TOV (.598 TS% -- +6.1 relTS%) -- 60 gms
'86-'93: 34.9 PPG -- 6.7 RPG -- 6.6 APG -- 3.3 TOV (.581 TS% -- +4.4 relTS%) -- 107 gms
Career: 33.4 PPG -- 6.4 RPG -- 5.7 APG -- 3.1 TOV (.568 TS% -- +3.1 relTS%) -- 179 gms

Just unreal.

[euroleague]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

[iggymcfrack]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

[No-more-rings]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Regarding the 1st thing, where are you getting these figures and what’s the number of games cutoff?

[iggymcfrack]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Regarding the 1st thing, where are you getting these figures and what’s the number of games cutoff?

Basketball-reference and I used 1000 career playoff minutes played and 12 PPG playoff scoring average as the cutoffs.

[euroleague]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Most efficient doesn't mean highest TS. many flaws exist within TS, such as rewarding FTA if you're a good FT shooter and punishing it if you aren't (despite having drawn the foul and converted at a good rate). Also, McHale's TS% got lower when he was older and when he was a rookie - if you don't include that, he was clearly a step above Kawhi in scoring efficiency averaging 64% TS in his prime.

McHale was a far worse offensive player than Larry Bird - there wasn't even a discussion. Playmaking and where they shot from is what set them apart - if you are scoring 60% TS from long distance you create ridiculous amounts of oppurtunities from your team IF you can playmake. You boost your entire team's offense. Adrian Dantley was one of the best pure scorers ever, but not a great offensive player.

Kawhi is a great shooter, but he's not that great offensively. Lowry/Gasol and the ball-movement offense create an elite offensive system that Kawhi thrives in. Kobe was the system on teams with not nearly this much talent...

[Strepbacter]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Using raw TS is a compare waste of time. Kobe played a huge chunk of his post-season career/prime in the GOAT defensive era. Kobe was at 54.8% over his ten year prime against opp defensive average of 51.4, so his rTS was at a strong +3.4. He was a more efficient post-season scorer over his prime than guys like prime Bird/prime Malone/prime Moses etc.

[iggymcfrack]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Most efficient doesn't mean highest TS. many flaws exist within TS, such as rewarding FTA if you're a good FT shooter and punishing it if you aren't (despite having drawn the foul and converted at a good rate). Also, McHale's TS% got lower when he was older and when he was a rookie - if you don't include that, he was clearly a step above Kawhi in scoring efficiency averaging 64% TS in his prime.

McHale was a far worse offensive player than Larry Bird - there wasn't even a discussion. Playmaking and where they shot from is what set them apart - if you are scoring 60% TS from long distance you create ridiculous amounts of oppurtunities from your team IF you can playmake. You boost your entire team's offense. Adrian Dantley was one of the best pure scorers ever, but not a great offensive player.

Kawhi is a great shooter, but he's not that great offensively. Lowry/Gasol and the ball-movement offense create an elite offensive system that Kawhi thrives in. Kobe was the system on teams with not nearly this much talent...

The only flaw with TS% is that it doesn’t account for how many FTA come from And-1s. If you have a league average amount of your free throws from And-1s, it will account perfectly for how many points per shooting possession you’re getting. So maybe LeBron and Harden get slightly underrated by a percentage point or so, but in most cases, it makes almost no difference.

Also, if it’s just the Toronto system making Kawhi score 31 PPG on .631 TS%, then how come he scored 28 PPG on .672 TS% his last playoffs in San Antonio? Who was the elite, unparalleled talent that Kobe never played with the likes of? Here are the top 7 minutes guys on that Spurs team other than Kawhi with playoff stats:

Lamarcus Aldridge: 15.2 PER on .500 TS%
Danny Green: 9.6 PER on .529 TS%
Patty Mills: 11.6 PER on .551 TS%
Pau Gasol: 15.1 PER on .491 TS%
Johnathan Simmons: 15.0 PER on .528 TS%
Manu Ginobili: 14.1 PER on .495 TS%
David Lee: 12.1 PER on .550 TS%

[HBK_Kliq_33]

people look at advanced stats and compare them too directly. TS% was lower when Kobe played, that doesn't mean Kobe was a worse scorer - it means that the style of play the league had wasn't as conducive to scoring at a high percentage.

Kobe was way better than Kawhi for a long time. Kawhi isn't a good playmaker. Kawhi isn't a dynamic scorer - he's effective, but mainly in certain things, whereas Kobe could do virtually anything. Kawhi took like 39 shots to get 41 points (or something, I forget) in some important games... which is RIDICULOUS by today's standard of scoring.

Kawhi’s the most efficient scorer in the history of the playoffs that scores at least 12 PPG. He has a TS% of .621, second place is Kevin McHale at .618. Kobe wasn’t even particularly efficient even relative to his era (which overlapped with Kawhi for 5 years). His .541 career mark in the playoffs is 102nd out of 197 players in the 3-point era.

Most efficient doesn't mean highest TS. many flaws exist within TS, such as rewarding FTA if you're a good FT shooter and punishing it if you aren't (despite having drawn the foul and converted at a good rate). Also, McHale's TS% got lower when he was older and when he was a rookie - if you don't include that, he was clearly a step above Kawhi in scoring efficiency averaging 64% TS in his prime.

McHale was a far worse offensive player than Larry Bird - there wasn't even a discussion. Playmaking and where they shot from is what set them apart - if you are scoring 60% TS from long distance you create ridiculous amounts of oppurtunities from your team IF you can playmake. You boost your entire team's offense. Adrian Dantley was one of the best pure scorers ever, but not a great offensive player.

[b]Kawhi is a great shooter, but he's not that great offensively. Lowry/Gasol and the ball-movement offense create an elite offensive system that Kawhi thrives in. Kobe was the system on teams with not nearly this much talent..[/b].

Horrible take, leave your bias for kobe out of this thread and you might make some sense. Peak shaq from 1999-2002 was better than even Kobe was and far better than Lowry or Siakam. Your argument is peak Siakam or 33 year old lowry has more talent than peak Shaq? Come on dude. Kobe was the system? Yeah the triangle offense that system that won 6 rings in the 1990s and also won 3 rings with him as the second scoring option. Yet, somehow Kawhi's system with Nurse is the deal breaker in the comparison for you? Even Pau Gasol was better than anybody Kawhi currently has on his team.

[GM Wotsup]

Stats aside for a moment. 2017 playoff Kawhi went eerily MJ like a number of times tbh.

[bigboi]

If he windburns the finals then it would probably be better than any Kobe season, but I’d honestly argue the same for Lebron as well. If he won the Finals, it would be much more impressive than Lebron winning

[KobesScarf]

Kawhi is scoring at a higher volume than any playoff run from Kobe :shrug:

01 Kobe averaged 29 ppg and the league average was 94 ppg

Kawhi is averaging 31 ppg and the league average is 108 ppg

And 01 Kobe played better defenses than Kawhi will.

[Jaivl]

Kawhi is scoring at a higher volume than any playoff run from Kobe :shrug:

01 Kobe averaged 29 ppg and the league average was 94 ppg

Kawhi is averaging 31 ppg and the league average is 108 ppg

And 01 Kobe played better defenses than Kawhi will.

01 Kobe averaged 35.4 points per 100 possessions.
09 Kobe averaged 39.0 points per 100 possessions.
19 Kawhi averages 40.4 points per 100 possessions.

Not saying Kawhi is better on offense (I don't think that), just stating the facts.

[KobesScarf]

Kawhi is scoring at a higher volume than any playoff run from Kobe :shrug:

01 Kobe averaged 29 ppg and the league average was 94 ppg

Kawhi is averaging 31 ppg and the league average is 108 ppg

And 01 Kobe played better defenses than Kawhi will.

01 Kobe averaged 35.4 points per 100 possessions.
09 Kobe averaged 39.0 points per 100 possessions.
19 Kawhi averages 40.4 points per 100 possessions.

Not saying Kawhi is better on offense (I don't think that), just stating the facts.

Annnnnnd what does this have to with what I posted?