2019 NBA Offseason Discussion

[Outside]

It is indeed a Hail Mary.

They didn't panic for no reason, they responded to a feud between their two stars. However good or bad that reason is, it's not at all the same thing as just giving up for no good reason.

Interestingly D'Antoni has first hand experience with franchise panic for no good reason. That's what the Phoenix Suns when they blew up their SSOL scheme and acquired Shaq.

If I remember correctly, it was Steve Kerr who was the suns GM at this time?

Indeed. I would love for him to write a book talking about his journey from that moment to the moment when he came up with his plan for the Golden State Warriors. Such a stark about face.

Kerr has talked about what a bad trade that was and a huge mistake on his part. IIRC, Kerr doesn't grade himself very well as a GM but considers it valuable experience.

If the Chris Paul situation was as toxic as has been reported, the Westbrook trade was an upgrade and as good as they could get, given Paul's contract. Good luck to Presti trying to unload it on someone else.

[Outside]

I'm frankly just amazed at how bad it apparently is. Clearly you knew better than me. I'll fully admit this wasn't something I took all that serious when he was in LA, and the way the first year went in Houston I thought it wasn't a problem.

I see the analogy to Melo, but this is far more interesting:

In Melo's case dude's actually like him. The real issue is that that everyone knows now that he never was that good as an alpha, never developed any other skills, and now he's old, so, yeah, he's useless.

In Paul's case he's still fantastic and has the basketball skills to play until his body literally stops working...but players don't want to play with him because of his know-it-all attitude which is apparently the equivalent of nails-on-a-chalkboard with a massive ego grafted onto said chalkboard.

And yeah, with Russ the issue is his on-court habits not the way he interacts with people. In general that's a much worse sin - it's why Paul has had a far more impactful career than Westbrook - but in terms of the great superstar Tinder-swipe fest of 2019, Paul is the big loser.

I think CP3's style of play factors into it too. He loves to dribble, he loves to control the whole offense. And it's produced some beautiful advanced stats in the regular season. Problem is, you can't play that way, have consistently disappointing playoff results and then place all the blame on the rest of the team whenever things go wrong.

It's not surprising that things went south so quickly in Houston because Harden is a ballhog who can't play off-ball. Control freak CP3 and heroball Harden weren't sustainable as a duo in the long run. CP3's overall decline as a player didn't help matters.

Nope. His playoff results are just as good.

Clippers never dominated the playoffs because of trash defensive depth and overall depth.


But on the dominating the ball point, time of possession stats already prove that to be wrong. Gus like Nash, Paul, and Magic are seen as these massive ball dominators but it really is a myth relative to how much they actually do make players better. All 3 enabled very high pass/assist per game teams.

The Harden/Wade/LeBrons of the world are more monopolizers that dont allow talent to maximize next to them. Paul has been on like 3 dfferent teams seeing different styles of play peak next to him. Its a joke narrative.


Which leads me to another point about Houstons offense, there is no movement or structure like in LAC with Gentry/Doc or even PHX back in the day. It really is 1-4 flat, occasional step up screen, and spain pnr team.

There is no deception, no movement, no secondary passing beyond kick-outs, nothing. Thats not his fault. And really, I saw him screening and moving to the level of the ball a ton when off the ball. There is no point to moving when Harden is gonna shoot 15 step backs and everyone knows it.

A lot of his being a supposed cancer in Houston comes from challenging D'Antoni and Harden on that. He was not the only one. Eric Gordon was literally complaining to the media about it just this past year and reportedly didnt know what to do about it. CP3 challenged. They balked, he got traded.

The thing is, Paul knew what he was getting into when he got himself traded to Houston. He said all the right things about going there and adapting to Harden and that style of play.

I can understand souring on it after living it for two years, but the proper response at that point is to figure out what you can do to work within those constraints to make the team better, not unleash the Prick God, blaming everyone but yourself when you signed up for this.

[limbo]

ShotCreator makes good points. I think people tend to overanalyze things when they go wrong based on a whole bunch of assumptions.

This Houston CP3 thing literally turned from best thing ever (a healthy limb away from slaying the GOAT team en route to a title) to a vitriolic mess that inevitably going to crash and burn.

What happened was Houston took a risk when they signed CP3 and they knew it, so pointing the finger at Paul doesn't make much sense. The risk was that he was injury prone and getting older thus being more likely to naturally decline. I also do not believe that the Rockets were completely oblivious to his personality/fit, so they had to also took that to mind when they were considering pulling the trigger. However, the benefit was that if he could be healthy come playoff time, you're getting a potentially Top 5 player. They chose to roll with it... and it worked. Because it worked they decided to double down and gave him a new contract. So what was already a risky proposition, they decided to make it even riskier. Paul got injured again, potentially declined due to said injuries/age, people got mad, egos got hurt and here we are.

I think both Harden and CP3 initially did a great job of adapting to each other, you can't really sit here and say CP3 didn't defer to Harden or MDA system, that he came in to Houston and started playing the way he wanted and controlled everything. The problem always starts when you don't win, then the wheels start flying off... People start having different ideas on how to move forward to make sure you have a better chance at winning and that inevitable means some people won't be happy, because it means taking away from how they want to play, and they feel strongly about that.

Again, i didn't really see anything on-court that would suggest CP3 just dismissing everything and saying ''i run this team, everyone just do what i say'', but the way Harden plays pretty clearly does echo that, because he can do whatever he wants and he gets a pass while doing so. Why? Because he averages 36 ppg? Ok, fair enough, if that's your priority then so be it. I thought i was coming here to maximize the franchise chances of winning a title as a key player, yet when i give my output on how we should approach that goal i'm getting feedback like ''you can't even get pass your man, watch me'' and the coach pandering to Harden because he's apparently the bread winner of the club.

I don't mean to come off putting all the blame on Harden, but it's pretty clear to me that CP3 thought he was gonna have a bigger voice on the team before he joined, especially as a highly reputable all-star caliber senior player. This is also the main reason i think a lot of people, especially players, in the league hate Paul (besides his antics, but Harden also has more than a fair share of his own antics that don't seem to bother people in the association). Players feel like Paul didn't earn his spot. They are like ''hold up, this guy is the head of NBPA, collecting fat contracts, acting like he's one of the best players ever, but he hasn't come even close to winning anything...'' that doesn't sit right with a lot of the prideful guys in the league.

Anyway, back to the topic. Rockets don't win, CP3 underperforms and starts losing power in the team because of it. Challenges Harden/MDA, and here we are. Chemistry is forever ruined and it's time to move on. It's no different in life.

That's why this Westbrook and Harden dynamic will be so interesting to see next season. To me, they either win by both of them taking turns playing 1v5 and doing whatever they want on offense, or nothing, because expecting either Westbrook or Harden to change their game to accommodate one and other, or better yet, the whole team, is a fantasy, it's a concept that doesn't exist.

[Doctor MJ]

Not really the topic here, but Nash never really created chaos on defenses with his penetration like Westbrook does, mostly because he's not really an above the rim player who can force his way through. Westbrook is basically a mini-Lebron driving to the rim and he has the vision and passing ability to find open teammates when the defense collapses to stop his drives. I didn't say he was the greatest at creating rim pressure, that's Lebron, he's the greatest point guard in that regard though, no PG has ever been the above the rim threat Westbrook is except maybe Derrick Rose for a year...

Not saying Westbrook doesn't have vision, but there are levels to vision. Nash created chaos in a pre-meditated, intellectual fashion which he then exploited better than anyone else in the history of the game. No he's not doing precisely everything that Westbrook's doing, but what he's doing is far more effective and impactful.

For the record, I do consider LeBron to be a superior offensive player to Nash, but I still wouldn't say he created chaos as well as Nash, nor that he harvested it as well as Nash.

Re: "above the rim threat". I think we're likely to diverge on how important something like this is when it comes to generating "pressure" and exploiting it. Being able to see at least to a certain level is a necessity, but you don't need to be able to see as much when you have intuition about where players are going to be and can make passing decisions quickly enough. That was the miracle of Nash...though of course even he is at around the 99th percentile of human males in terms of height, so he's not exactly proving you don't need to be tall.

What I will say is that the more a player attacks the rim looking to score, the more the defense is going to guard against the rim as opposed to guard against the pass. In that sense you're right of course that a score-first player like Westbrook is creating more rim pressure than a pass-first player. And this also tends to make for easier passing, since guys are left more open, since the defense knows it's unlikely to get burned by cheating and will accept the consequences of gambling accordingly.

A guy who passes less often is going to have easier passes to make, but that's a tradeoff not a virtue. The tradeoff may be a good thing, but until you also factor in the costs, it's a problem to put too much stock in one aspect of the whole.

And obviously I don't like the tradeoff in Westbrook's game. I think he could be a more effective player if he chose a more disciplined path.

The skills Harden doesn't possess are Westbrook's ability to attack the rim and either finish or create open shots for teammates and the ability to push up the pace in transition. As good as Harden is, he's pretty much a below the rim player who's at his best methodically ISOing in the half court.

Harden is also a guy we all know is literally too good at drawing fouls - as in the league needs to do something about it, but until it does it's as real in terms of impact as anything else.

So yeah, Harden drives, and yeah he gets assists off of drives, and yeah, some of those assists are kick outs. He's not doing as much of the Westbrook-things as Westbrook, but he's better than Westbrook at leading a unipolar attack because on the whole he's doing enough things and doing them good enough that he's better overall.

No one would sign Westbrook to have him camp at the 3-point line while Harden plays ISOs. Harden will defer to Westbrook for sure, his usage numbers will go down a lot;

I'm getting whiplash here.

I'm with you up front that I certainly hope Houston has a better plan than that, and I'm with with the last statement if "a lot" means moving back in the realm of what Harden was like before this last season - mid-30s, maybe even low-30s, but "defer to Westbrook" is just a crazy statement to me, to the point where I had to respond right here.

The hope is that Harden will share the load primarily so that he can conserve his energy for where things count. There is zero doubt that Harden is the better player here, and since it's already his team, Westbrook needs to come in looking to defer to Harden whenever the hell Harden wants. If Westbrook refuses to do that, it's not going to go well.

for starters Harden is better on-ball in the half court but not in transition. With Westbrook leading the charge, Houston's transition offense will become much stronger, expect 5-7 plays a game of Westbrook grabbing the rebound, charging forward at pace and either dunking or dishing it out to an open shooter.

Harden is renowned for his transition passing. What I think you're noting is that in the past two years Houston's played slower, but understand that in the first year D'Antoni came Houston played at high pace and had comparable transition scoring to OKC.

But you're absolutely right that Westbrook is going to make them more dangerous in the transition, and I expect to see breaks led by his rebounds.

On the half court, Westbrook will handle the ball some of the time with Harden playing off him, but it will mostly be Harden leading the offense: Westbrook is one of the worst volume 3 pt shooters in the league and the most athletic point guard ever though, so having up spot up for 3s would just be a waste, the Rockets will try to use him as a cutting threat. Westbrook cutting to the basket is a bigger threat and will impact the defense more than a decent 3 point shooter, especially since the Rockets will have 2 of those on the floor most times anyway.

I think many people will be surprised by just how good Westbrook can be; OKC had terrible shooting around him, he was going against packed paints most of the time and still put historic numbers and won an MVP. I expect this season to lead to a serious reassessment by many of how good Westbrook and Harden are compared to each other, but we'll see...

I am certainly hoping that Westbrook becomes renowned for his cutting again. So long as his body is still capable, he has the talent to be amazing at it...but it's been a long time since Westbrook has approached his off-ball play in this manner. My hope is that he's eager to the challenge of doing it again, and were I Houston I would make that known up front that he'd have to be.

Re: reassessment of how good compared. In terms of who the better alpha is, that comparison is for the forseeable future. Harden is one of the best in the game, Westbrook's campaign ended ingloriously well before he thought it would based on weaknesses he hasn't been addressing.

But what I could see is Westbrook taking on a more UCLA-like role in Houston and having a case for being more impactful in that capacity. Wouldn't bet on it, and think the best time for it was years ago, but I'll be cheering for Westbrook to take on a new identity and blow away the league again.

[Doctor MJ]

ShotCreator makes good points. I think people tend to overanalyze things when they go wrong based on a whole bunch of assumptions.

This Houston CP3 thing literally turned from best thing ever (a healthy limb away from slaying the GOAT team en route to a title) to a vitriolic mess that inevitably going to crash and burn.

What happened was Houston took a risk when they signed CP3 and they knew it, so pointing the finger at Paul doesn't make much sense. The risk was that he was injury prone and getting older thus being more likely to naturally decline. I also do not believe that the Rockets were completely oblivious to his personality/fit, so they had to also took that to mind when they were considering pulling the trigger. However, the benefit was that if he could be healthy come playoff time, you're getting a potentially Top 5 player. They chose to roll with it... and it worked. Because it worked they decided to double down and gave him a new contract. So what was already a risky proposition, they decided to make it even riskier. Paul got injured again, potentially declined due to said injuries/age, people got mad, egos got hurt and here we are.

I think both Harden and CP3 initially did a great job of adapting to each other, you can't really sit here and say CP3 didn't defer to Harden or MDA system, that he came in to Houston and started playing the way he wanted and controlled everything. The problem always starts when you don't win, then the wheels start flying off... People start having different ideas on how to move forward to make sure you have a better chance at winning and that inevitable means some people won't be happy, because it means taking away from how they want to play, and they feel strongly about that.

Again, i didn't really see anything on-court that would suggest CP3 just dismissing everything and saying ''i run this team, everyone just do what i say'', but the way Harden plays pretty clearly does echo that, because he can do whatever he wants and he gets a pass while doing so. Why? Because he averages 36 ppg? Ok, fair enough, if that's your priority then so be it. I thought i was coming here to maximize the franchise chances of winning a title as a key player, yet when i give my output on how we should approach that goal i'm getting feedback like ''you can't even get pass your man, watch me'' and the coach pandering to Harden because he's apparently the bread winner of the club.

I don't mean to come off putting all the blame on Harden, but it's pretty clear to me that CP3 thought he was gonna have a bigger voice on the team before he joined, especially as a highly reputable all-star caliber senior player. This is also the main reason i think a lot of people, especially players, in the league hate Paul (besides his antics, but Harden also has more than a fair share of his own antics that don't seem to bother people in the association). Players feel like Paul didn't earn his spot. They are like ''hold up, this guy is the head of NBPA, collecting fat contracts, acting like he's one of the best players ever, but he hasn't come even close to winning anything...'' that doesn't sit right with a lot of the prideful guys in the league.

Hey, welcome RealGM. A thoughtful post here, which is good to see.

Reading your post what I'm largely seeing is a difference in perspective.

You feel like people are saying Paul should have known better, but you feel like Houston & Harden should have known better.

Both statements are true. All deserve blame. So who should we be talking about?

Well, the reality here is we're not really looking to blame so much as we are evaluate, and the people we end up talking about are the ones we find most interesting to evaluate, oftentimes because they did something particularly smart or particularly not smart.

Paul is the one here who was particularly not smart, because all of this was predictable, including the fact that he would get banished to the hinterlands while Harden & the Rockets continued on their merry way. Maybe he eventually ends up somewhere he likes again, but he wanted to play a major role on a title winner and he's a hell of a lot further from that right now than he was when he came to Houston.

What adds to the "not smart" aspect to this is that Paul's issues are exactly the kinds of issues you worry about when a guy goes from alpha to beta if they are known for being a vocal, domineering leader. We've seen this one before, and it's amusing to see it play again.

Last thing: It sounds like you think Harden gets away with things, but I disagree, lots of people dislike Harden's approach to how he plays both on the floor and in the locker room. What's more, this debacle with Paul is likely going to contribute to Harden getting judged harder later in his career. But Paul is older, has a longer track record, and just shot himself in the foot a lot worse, so for this incident, Paul's getting judged more loudly.

Anyway, back to the topic. Rockets don't win, CP3 underperforms and starts losing power in the team because of it. Challenges Harden/MDA, and here we are. Chemistry is forever ruined and it's time to move on. It's no different in life.

That's why this Westbrook and Harden dynamic will be so interesting to see next season. To me, they either win by both of them taking turns playing 1v5 and doing whatever they want on offense, or nothing, because expecting either Westbrook or Harden to change their game to accommodate one and other, or better yet, the whole team, is a fantasy, it's a concept that doesn't exist.

You may be right. The song thing for me is that Westbrook & Harden have both played differently in the past. The optimal way for them to play given their talents is something much more synergistic than what you describe, but each might be too stuck in their habits to change stripes again.

[Doctor MJ]

So, looking at teams in terms of EOY/COY-type leaps forward:

The good and the defensible:

Clippers - to me they are the winners of the off-season at this point, which is interesting because I don't think Kawhi/George is the best duo. If, say, the Lakers end up winning the title next year, I wonder how impressed we'll be with the Clippers off-season. Still, in terms of how the Clipper franchise is seen, no team has come further when you think about Sterling still owning the team only a few years ago.

Nets - the other obvious "big winners" of the off-season. I'm a major Kyrie skeptic and who knows Durant's bodies future. My guess is that that the lack of this-year impact will end up hurting EOY/COY contention, but the franchise itself is likely a big winner in terms of credibility going forward.

Jazz - The lack of star power in their off-season means they'll be forgotten unless they get off to a good start. But I'll say that I'm excited to see Conley in Utah. I'd love to see this team become a serious contender.

Thunder - No team got more net benefit than the Thunder, but of course when you tear down, that's when you can pull that off. The real test is how you build up, and so I'm reluctant to be too infatuated with draft picks, even in the hands of someone with a good draft track record.

Pelicans - Similar story to the Thunder.

Lakers - we can all agree that in terms of EOY competence, the Lakers should not get any consideration. Still, they got AD and LeBron/AD should be the best duo in the league. That's not nothing.

76ers - here's one where they may end up looking smart or dumb. I honestly think that a Butler/Embiid duo is probably the best duo you could make out of the Philly parts, so the loss of Butler is a big deal. And yet, it won't shock me if Philly wins the title next year. I

Heat - while we're on the subject of Butler, I think Miami's smart to hand their team over to Butler. I think you could do a lot worse than that. Still not really sold that they have any path to being a legit contender.

Celtics - whatever they do is a disappointment compared to where their hopes were, but I think moving on from Kyrie and getting Kemba was smart.

Bucks - This is one of those off-seasons where we might look back on it and say "this is when they blew it", but given their circumstances, I think they did what they could. Not a Bucks fan per se, but I think it would be good for the NBA if Giannis can win a title in Milwaukee next year, and I think they have a great chance if Giannis gets better...like he really should be able to.

Warriors - The Russell acquisition is another one that might end up looking terrible, but I get the logic of it. Interesting to see how much they actually know what they are doing. If this move works out for them, they'll deserve a lot of credit.

The bad:

Hornets - there's just no defense for letting Kemba go like this when they had years to figure out a different out. If Ainge/Presti/Griffin were running the show, the Hornets would be an exciting young team by now, instead they sign Rozier for an overpriced contract.

Knicks - the most embarrassing off-season because of how Dolan made a big deal that this off-season would be different, and instead their new city rival got the players they thought were theirs.

Magic - they just always seem like they are throwing bad money after good. Stuck in mediocrity.

Suns - really feels like a team that makes decisions by whim and they aren't able to actually build because of it.

Kings - I don't see Barnes as someone who should be getting contracts like this. To me it's an indicator that they have taken too much encouragement from their nice '18-19 improvement. They are likely to stagnate and I imagine them wishing they weren't tied to Barnes in the not too distant future.

Spurs - seem like a team that's just resigned to being below contender status for the forseeable future

[ShotCreator]

I think CP3's style of play factors into it too. He loves to dribble, he loves to control the whole offense. And it's produced some beautiful advanced stats in the regular season. Problem is, you can't play that way, have consistently disappointing playoff results and then place all the blame on the rest of the team whenever things go wrong.

It's not surprising that things went south so quickly in Houston because Harden is a ballhog who can't play off-ball. Control freak CP3 and heroball Harden weren't sustainable as a duo in the long run. CP3's overall decline as a player didn't help matters.

Nope. His playoff results are just as good.

Clippers never dominated the playoffs because of trash defensive depth and overall depth.


But on the dominating the ball point, time of possession stats already prove that to be wrong. Gus like Nash, Paul, and Magic are seen as these massive ball dominators but it really is a myth relative to how much they actually do make players better. All 3 enabled very high pass/assist per game teams.

The Harden/Wade/LeBrons of the world are more monopolizers that dont allow talent to maximize next to them. Paul has been on like 3 dfferent teams seeing different styles of play peak next to him. Its a joke narrative.


Which leads me to another point about Houstons offense, there is no movement or structure like in LAC with Gentry/Doc or even PHX back in the day. It really is 1-4 flat, occasional step up screen, and spain pnr team.

There is no deception, no movement, no secondary passing beyond kick-outs, nothing. Thats not his fault. And really, I saw him screening and moving to the level of the ball a ton when off the ball. There is no point to moving when Harden is gonna shoot 15 step backs and everyone knows it.

A lot of his being a supposed cancer in Houston comes from challenging D'Antoni and Harden on that. He was not the only one. Eric Gordon was literally complaining to the media about it just this past year and reportedly didnt know what to do about it. CP3 challenged. They balked, he got traded.

The thing is, Paul knew what he was getting into when he got himself traded to Houston. He said all the right things about going there and adapting to Harden and that style of play.

I can understand souring on it after living it for two years, but the proper response at that point is to figure out what you can do to work within those constraints to make the team better, not unleash the Prick God, blaming everyone but yourself when you signed up for this.

Exact opposite. The Rockets only got into the extreme isolation game in the second half of he 2018 season. Did not get out of of it until the beginning of this year, and then when he went down in December Harden and DAntoni took it up an even higher notch.

The Rockets had a lot more movement and team play in 2017. Thats why Hardens on/off was weak even then.

[limbo]

Thanks Doc. I've actually been around before, years ago, i just kinda been doing other things in life, but recently, with a new crop of talent emerging in the NBA and the progression of how the game is being played and thought of, i got the itch back to talk basketball and i think this is actually the best place to facilitate quality basketball discussion on the internet. Sometimes removing yourself from a place to observe other things in life gives you a better perspective where true value really lies. Welp, that was unintentionally poetic, but alas. Let's talk some ball.

Well, the reality here is we're not really looking to blame so much as we are evaluate, and the people we end up talking about are the ones we find most interesting to evaluate, oftentimes because they did something particularly smart or particularly not smart.

Right, but looking at it from Paul's perspective, i don't understand why we should think that what he did was not in the best interest for himself and his career? Before he arrived Houston, he was on the wrong side of his career curve and he was desperate to compete for a title. He agreed to join Houston because it gave him the best percentage chance of winning a title, and this was true at the time. There weren't many places that could facilitate that for him because of Golden State's dominance. CP3 took care of himself. He got himself on the best possible team to contend for a title, and because he was still a max-level player, he got his money too. Nothing dumb about this so far.

Paul is the one here who was particularly not smart, because all of this was predictable, including the fact that he would get banished to the hinterlands while Harden & the Rockets continued on their merry way. Maybe he eventually ends up somewhere he likes again, but he wanted to play a major role on a title winner and he's a hell of a lot further from that right now than he was when he came to Houston.

The reason why Paul is now a lot further from competing for a title currently is imo primarily because of his decline in performance. The Rockets wouldn't offer him that contract if they thought he was toxic or it wasn't working out or that he
was interfering with the hierarchy of the franchise too much. That would make zero sense. Fact of the matter was that the experiment worked, because all you heard all last Summer was how if CP3 could hold up just a couple games more, Houston would the team throwing the bus parades.

I think CP3 tried his hardest to make this work, he just could not. Not because he's dumb or toxic, or wouldn't defer to Harden, or didn't listen to D'Antoni. He simply didn't have enough in the tank when it mattered the most. Houston was so gassed on beating GS, that's all they could think of all year, when they finally got their chance, and they realized from the first game that they are no closer to beating them (in fact, they were further away than in 2018) they started imploding. The nail in the coffin was when Durant went down, and they still were incapable of doing anything to capitalize on it. It took a toll emotionally on all of them.

So in essence, if i were to put blame on CP3, it would be for his performance (which at this stage of his career, is more an indictment of his age & injury record than his ability) and that's it. I think different people/players tend to show their displeasure in different ways. Paul seems to be a very emotionally expressive dude who gets very upset/angry when he's losing and goes directly in people's faces spilling what's on his mind. Harden otoh seems to be on the total opposite end of the spectrum. He's kinda passive-aggressive, he'll give you the odd look but won't say anything more than he needs too, but you can pick up on his energy that he's not really vibing with you on the same frequency. It's like a personality conflict between the two that comes out when things aren't going well. It's just that Paul ends up looking worse here due to multiple factors, mainly that Harden objectively performed better than Paul in the playoffs and overall during the season and is regarded as the alpha/better player. But even if this was not the case, Harden would still have the support of the Rockets because he's their 'guy'.

You may be right. The song thing for me is that Westbrook & Harden have both played differently in the past. The optimal way for them to play given their talents is something much more synergistic than what you describe, but each might be too stuck in their habits to change stripes again.

It's really more a matter of both guys losing too much of their value when they don't control everything on offense. Westbrook just doesn't have the skillset to be an off-ball player, so it doesn't make sense to use him as such. It's like using a Lamborghini for a family road trip or to drive off-road on swampy terrain. If you want to have someone cutting, spacing the floor, playing off Harden's pressure, that's what role players are specialized for...why try and make Westbrook an bad imitation of that. Harden has a better skillset to play off-ball, but again, he loses a lot. Doesn't make sense to make Harden space the floor for Westbrook when so much value of Harden is in his ability to play the pick 'n roll, penetrate, find shooters, draw fouls...

Like, does anyone actually envision Harden or Westbrook doing anything else other than palming the ball for seconds straight and looking if they can do something off the dribble. I don't think people seriously believe they will screen for each other, or running around screens or cutting or any of that stuff.

There's only one way i see this going and it's 'my turn, your turn'. Can you do something off the dribble, no, well let me try, oh, i got nothing, here you try type basketball.

[Doctor MJ]

Thanks Doc. I've actually been around before, years ago, i just kinda been doing other things in life, but recently, with a new crop of talent emerging in the NBA and the progression of how the game is being played and thought of, i got the itch back to talk basketball and i think this is actually the best place to facilitate quality basketball discussion on the internet. Sometimes removing yourself from a place to observe other things in life gives you a better perspective where true value really lies. Welp, that was unintentionally poetic, but alas. Let's talk some ball.

Well, the reality here is we're not really looking to blame so much as we are evaluate, and the people we end up talking about are the ones we find most interesting to evaluate, oftentimes because they did something particularly smart or particularly not smart.

Right, but looking at it from Paul's perspective, i don't understand why we should think that what he did was not in the best interest for himself and his career? Before he arrived Houston, he was on the wrong side of his career curve and he was desperate to compete for a title. He agreed to join Houston because it gave him the best percentage chance of winning a title, and this was true at the time. There weren't many places that could facilitate that for him because of Golden State's dominance. CP3 took care of himself. He got himself on the best possible team to contend for a title, and because he was still a max-level player, he got his money too. Nothing dumb about this so far.

Paul is the one here who was particularly not smart, because all of this was predictable, including the fact that he would get banished to the hinterlands while Harden & the Rockets continued on their merry way. Maybe he eventually ends up somewhere he likes again, but he wanted to play a major role on a title winner and he's a hell of a lot further from that right now than he was when he came to Houston.

The reason why Paul is now a lot further from competing for a title currently is imo primarily because of his decline in performance. The Rockets wouldn't offer him that contract if they thought he was toxic or it wasn't working out or that he
was interfering with the hierarchy of the franchise too much. That would make zero sense. Fact of the matter was that the experiment worked, because all you heard all last Summer was how if CP3 could hold up just a couple games more, Houston would the team throwing the bus parades.

I think CP3 tried his hardest to make this work, he just could not. Not because he's dumb or toxic, or wouldn't defer to Harden, or didn't listen to D'Antoni. He simply didn't have enough in the tank when it mattered the most. Houston was so gassed on beating GS, that's all they could think of all year, when they finally got their chance, and they realized from the first game that they are no closer to beating them (in fact, they were further away than in 2018) they started imploding. The nail in the coffin was when Durant went down, and they still were incapable of doing anything to capitalize on it. It took a toll emotionally on all of them.

So in essence, if i were to put blame on CP3, it would be for his performance (which at this stage of his career, is more an indictment of his age & injury record than his ability) and that's it. I think different people/players tend to show their displeasure in different ways. Paul seems to be a very emotionally expressive dude who gets very upset/angry when he's losing and goes directly in people's faces spilling what's on his mind. Harden otoh seems to be on the total opposite end of the spectrum. He's kinda passive-aggressive, he'll give you the odd look but won't say anything more than he needs too, but you can pick up on his energy that he's not really vibing with you on the same frequency. It's like a personality conflict between the two that comes out when things aren't going well. It's just that Paul ends up looking worse here due to multiple factors, mainly that Harden objectively performed better than Paul in the playoffs and overall during the season and is regarded as the alpha/better player. But even if this was not the case, Harden would still have the support of the Rockets because he's their 'guy'.

You may be right. The song thing for me is that Westbrook & Harden have both played differently in the past. The optimal way for them to play given their talents is something much more synergistic than what you describe, but each might be too stuck in their habits to change stripes again.

It's really more a matter of both guys losing too much of their value when they don't control everything on offense. Westbrook just doesn't have the skillset to be an off-ball player, so it doesn't make sense to use him as such. It's like using a Lamborghini for a family road trip or to drive off-road on swampy terrain. If you want to have someone cutting, spacing the floor, playing off Harden's pressure, that's what role players are specialized for...why try and make Westbrook an bad imitation of that. Harden has a better skillset to play off-ball, but again, he loses a lot. Doesn't make sense to make Harden space the floor for Westbrook when so much value of Harden is in his ability to play the pick 'n roll, penetrate, find shooters, draw fouls...

Like, does anyone actually envision Harden or Westbrook doing anything else other than palming the ball for seconds straight and looking if they can do something off the dribble. I don't think people seriously believe they will screen for each other, or running around screens or cutting or any of that stuff.

There's only one way i see this going and it's 'my turn, your turn'. Can you do something off the dribble, no, well let me try, oh, i got nothing, here you try type basketball.

Glad to have you back.

I think though that you're giving Paul way too much benefit of the doubt here. The reality is that we know now to a certainty that the Harden-Paul feud was as bad as feared, and that that was the motivating factor that led to the conversation between these two teams. If Harden-Paul had a good relationship going into this off-season, you continue with your plan, you don't break up a superstar duo that likes playing with each other in order to force a different pairing.

And to be clear I don't blame Paul for forcing his way to Houston, I blame him for not managing the relationships he needed to manage in Houston once he got there. This is part of a more general trend:

I blame "smart people" who fail to manage those who have power over them. It's one thing if you make no claims of being smarter than those around you. But if you ended up using the sharpness of your intellect in a way that leads someone with power over you to want you gone, you're probably being pretty dumb.

It's different of course if you're leading some righteous rebellion...but we know that's not what's going on here.

It's also different when you can acknowledge your mistake if not to the people who are pissed at you, at least to others. Some recognition of "Wow, I didn't handle that well" is meaningful, and maybe I'll eventually see Paul in this light.

Thing is though, the issues in Houston don't represent a new thing but instead appear as the latest instance of a recurring trend wherein Paul's annoying poke-poke-poke at the flaws of those around ends up creating a toxic environment that people want to get out of even if it means bringing someone in whose fit seems as bad as possible.

[limbo]

I don't understand what more Paul could've done. He sacrificed more in this scenario, which is fine, because he was the one joining Harden's team, but when you are a star player, and you are asked to sacrifice your game for greater good, and you feel like the same isn't done for you, i won't blame a guy like Paul for feeling a certain way about it and expressing that sentiment. And if blame is not what we are looking for, then i won't evaluate him less as a person/basketball player for it.

Paul relinquished on-ball duties, played 2nd fiddle and various other roles, gave more effort defensively, let Harden get pretty much all of the shine, the stats, the MVP etc. It would be wrong to assume Paul for a dummy. He's been around the league for a long time, he's been working closely with and for players for a long time and he's seen and played way more basketball than Harden. He knew Harden needed to do Harden things to satisfy his ego and his brand and he made sure he did as best as he could not to step on his toes. But eventually, there came a point where he probably felt mistreated and he is a prideful guy, make no mistake, which is a good thing. If you are looking for a star player, you don't want a spineless dude who is in fear of upsetting the apple cart sort to speak.

It's almost as if Harden's stubbornness to win at his own cost has now turned into a negative for CP3, supposedly because CP3 should've known better. He should've known Harden will do Harden things, and thus, he shouldn't have agreed to join Houston if he couldn't handle it. When the reality isn't as black and white. Paul took the best opportunity he had to compete for a title, he couldn't honor his part because of health/decline issues, not because he was a control freak who couldn't sacrifice and was toxic.

I think Paul did a better job at managing the relationship than he is given credit for. What it ended up being imo is he felt like he sacrificed a lot more than Harden to win a title and when it didn't work out he wouldn't tolerate being disrespected for how he performed when he's been making sure the everyone's needs are being met, but others didn't seem to give a damn about his.

I mean, you're making sure a guy like Harden gets credited superstar alpha MVP on this team, and then he turns around and basically says ''shut up, you can't beat anyone, watch me, because i can average 36 ppg''. Who is Harden anyway? People love to clown CP3 for being a championship virgin, what has Harden done in this league to undermine CP3 as a person and basketball player? Nothing. If this was LeBron talking crap to CP3, to ''stop whining and watch him'' it would at least make some more sense, but CP3 has no reason to take that from Harden. He stood up for himself and it hurt Harden's feelings, Harden went crying to his momma (which are the Houston Rockets organization in this case) and the rest is history.

At the end of the day, Paul needed to take blame for not performing up to his standards in the postseason and Harden needed to take blame for not sacrificing his own personal quota to try and make others (especially a key piece like CP3) more comfortable for the greater good. And it looked like neither was did, but at the end Paul came up looking worse because of narrative and having less support within the franchise and being the more disposable player. That's really it. The headlines here are reading like Paul single-handedly destroyed the Houston Rockets with his attitude (when he sacrificed the most) and his awful contract (which he was given to, and had every right to accept).

I'm just being wary that my opinions aren't getting driven by media narratives, hearsay, speculations and other riff raff. The opinions of the NBA hivemind can swing in a heartbeat. I remember how Durant was seen as the ultimate beta, softest superstar ever for joining the Warriors but now he's seen as some sort of hero and the savior because of how he went out. And he was really the key all along, because how the Warriors were powerless without him. In the end, even KD started believing all of this, with the way he handled his exit, and as he often vocalized how he felt his contributions went underappreciated by the Warriors when someone like Curry sacrificed far more to accommodate him, and the Warriors let KD do his thing far more than they let any other player do theirs.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't understand what more Paul could've done. He sacrificed more in this scenario, which is fine, because he was the one joining Harden's team, but when you are a star player, and you are asked to sacrifice your game for greater good, and you feel like the same isn't done for you, i won't blame a guy like Paul for feeling a certain way about it and expressing that sentiment. And if blame is not what we are looking for, then i won't evaluate him less as a person/basketball player for it.

Paul relinquished on-ball duties, played 2nd fiddle and various other roles, gave more effort defensively, let Harden get pretty much all of the shine, the stats, the MVP etc. It would be wrong to assume Paul for a dummy. He's been around the league for a long time, he's been working closely with and for players for a long time and he's seen and played way more basketball than Harden. He knew Harden needed to do Harden things to satisfy his ego and his brand and he made sure he did as best as he could not to step on his toes. But eventually, there came a point where he probably felt mistreated and he is a prideful guy, make no mistake, which is a good thing. If you are looking for a star player, you don't want a spineless dude who is in fear of upsetting the apple cart sort to speak.

It's almost as if Harden's stubbornness to win at his own cost has now turned into a negative for CP3, supposedly because CP3 should've known better. He should've known Harden will do Harden things, and thus, he shouldn't have agreed to join Houston if he couldn't handle it. When the reality isn't as black and white. Paul took the best opportunity he had to compete for a title, he couldn't honor his part because of health/decline issues, not because he was a control freak who couldn't sacrifice and was toxic.

I think Paul did a better job at managing the relationship than he is given credit for. What it ended up being imo is he felt like he sacrificed a lot more than Harden to win a title and when it didn't work out he wouldn't tolerate being disrespected for how he performed when he's been making sure the everyone's needs are being met, but others didn't seem to give a damn about his.

I mean, you're making sure a guy like Harden gets credited superstar alpha MVP on this team, and then he turns around and basically says ''shut up, you can't beat anyone, watch me, because i can average 36 ppg''. Who is Harden anyway? People love to clown CP3 for being a championship virgin, what has Harden done in this league to undermine CP3 as a person and basketball player? Nothing. If this was LeBron talking crap to CP3, to ''stop whining and watch him'' it would at least make some more sense, but CP3 has no reason to take that from Harden. He stood up for himself and it hurt Harden's feelings, Harden went crying to his momma (which are the Houston Rockets organization in this case) and the rest is history.

At the end of the day, Paul needed to take blame for not performing up to his standards in the postseason and Harden needed to take blame for not sacrificing his own personal quota to try and make others (especially a key piece like CP3) more comfortable for the greater good. And it looked like neither was did, but at the end Paul came up looking worse because of narrative and having less support within the franchise and being the more disposable player. That's really it. The headlines here are reading like Paul single-handedly destroyed the Houston Rockets with his attitude (when he sacrificed the most) and his awful contract (which he was given to, and had every right to accept).

I'm just being wary that my opinions aren't getting driven by media narratives, hearsay, speculations and other riff raff. The opinions of the NBA hivemind can swing in a heartbeat. I remember how Durant was seen as the ultimate beta, softest superstar ever for joining the Warriors but now he's seen as some sort of hero and the savior because of how he went out. And he was really the key all along, because how the Warriors were powerless without him. In the end, even KD started believing all of this, with the way he handled his exit, and as he often vocalized how he felt his contributions went underappreciated by the Warriors when someone like Curry sacrificed far more to accommodate him, and the Warriors let KD do his thing far more than they let any other player do theirs.

What more Paul could have done? Stop being annoying. Read the people around you, particularly when you bring any sort of negativity their way, adjust your approach until you've found a way that works well with them.

If that seems too much to ask, understand that I would advise literally everyone to aim to do this. It's not something you need a great talent at to be able to do, all you have to do is try to see things from others perspectives.

And you might say Harden should have done more but:

1) You keep talking as if Harden had an obligation to meet Paul halfway. He did not. When the older player is also the worse player and he says he wants to join the team, the better, younger, existing franchise player is the one who is judge.

2) We have a sense for how the conflicts started here. Paul is a constant chatterer and Harden is a guy who tends to go silent when he's bothered - until he explodes. It would be one thing if Harden were the one we saw as initiating the conversations that turned negative, but it's just generally known that it was Paul who did this, and has been doing this for a long time. It's one thing not to know how to respond when an alpha starts a negative conversation with you, but it's quite another thing when you're starting conversations with the alpha that he doesn't like. Frankly had it been the other way around, I bet Harden doesn't demand Paul gone.

[Dr Spaceman]

Nope. His playoff results are just as good.

Clippers never dominated the playoffs because of trash defensive depth and overall depth.


But on the dominating the ball point, time of possession stats already prove that to be wrong. Gus like Nash, Paul, and Magic are seen as these massive ball dominators but it really is a myth relative to how much they actually do make players better. All 3 enabled very high pass/assist per game teams.

The Harden/Wade/LeBrons of the world are more monopolizers that dont allow talent to maximize next to them. Paul has been on like 3 dfferent teams seeing different styles of play peak next to him. Its a joke narrative.


Which leads me to another point about Houstons offense, there is no movement or structure like in LAC with Gentry/Doc or even PHX back in the day. It really is 1-4 flat, occasional step up screen, and spain pnr team.

There is no deception, no movement, no secondary passing beyond kick-outs, nothing. Thats not his fault. And really, I saw him screening and moving to the level of the ball a ton when off the ball. There is no point to moving when Harden is gonna shoot 15 step backs and everyone knows it.

A lot of his being a supposed cancer in Houston comes from challenging D'Antoni and Harden on that. He was not the only one. Eric Gordon was literally complaining to the media about it just this past year and reportedly didnt know what to do about it. CP3 challenged. They balked, he got traded.

The thing is, Paul knew what he was getting into when he got himself traded to Houston. He said all the right things about going there and adapting to Harden and that style of play.

I can understand souring on it after living it for two years, but the proper response at that point is to figure out what you can do to work within those constraints to make the team better, not unleash the Prick God, blaming everyone but yourself when you signed up for this.

Exact opposite. The Rockets only got into the extreme isolation game in the second half of he 2018 season. Did not get out of of it until the beginning of this year, and then when he went down in December Harden and DAntoni took it up an even higher notch.

The Rockets had a lot more movement and team play in 2017. Thats why Hardens on/off was weak even then.

Harden himself has indicated he’s not happy with how the team plays. He’s a prideful guy that wants MVPs and accolades and recognition of course but I think it’s unlikely that he actually wants to play basketball this way given he had never ever approached the game tha gen ay in his whole career and growing up was seen as way more of a Nash type talent than a Jordan.

The iso game was borne out of necessity. The 2018 Rockets were the best pick and roll team ever, like by far, which makes sense with their personnel, o when the league saw what a train wreck their defensive schemes were they collectively said “alright we’ll just switch this action, what now?” The logical next step for a good offensive coach is to take advantage of the size mistmatch, which in the past meant posting up a guard but in MDA-land means letting your guard go to work against a big. This all happened rapidly around January 2018.

It just so happened the Rockets stumbled into something magical, because 1. With the step back 3 Harden could be about as successful in ISO as most teams are in transition in terms of PPP and 2. It just so happens that their only true rival couldn’t actually match their half court efficiency when they play this style. So by the grace of their amazing defense and ability to slow the game down they were able to grind out a couple key wins against the Dubs and should have won the series playing this style.

But it was only ever a marriage of convenience. Everyone involved (including Harden and MDA) talk openly about how they don’t want to play this way. I imagine with the Warriors out of the picture things will change to some degree.

[limbo]

What more Paul could have done? Stop being annoying. Read the people around you, particularly when you bring any sort of negativity their way, adjust your approach until you've found a way that works well with them.

And again, Paul did what you asked. HE adjusted his approach to work with Harden and the rest of the team. He was careful not to step on Harden's toes, he accepted his role, he accepted the system, he put Harden on the pedestal in the media, saying he's the guy, he's the MVP, i'm just helping him win the title.

But everything has a limit. Doesn't matter if Harden is the top dog, if you are 2nd in command, and you feel like you are pulling your end of the bargain but your needs aren't being met by your superiors, you will let them know. Sooner or later.

The media has painted CP3 as if he explodes emotionally and starts whining as soon as things don't go his way. Maybe he did try to communicate with Harden/MDA like a normal human being behind the scenes but felt like he wasn't being acknowledged. What then? This leads up to pent up anger and emotional outbursts when push comes to shove. Harden is the same, it's just that he doesn't get in your face about it, he just ignores you and does his own thing. Which may even be worse in a team setting then straight out venting the issue.

If that seems too much to ask, understand that I would advise literally everyone to aim to do this. It's not something you need a great talent at to be able to do, all you have to do is try to see things from others perspectives.

It's not as simple as just looking things from a different perspective. Working with different people who have different personalities and personal goals is one of the most difficult things in life, bar none. They have whole colleges and educational courses dedicated to this exact thing, teaching people how to work with one and other. Most NBA players have to develop these skills on their own, and the more you are put on a pedestal as a player, the less you will want to hear about it. It will be just 'my way or the highway'.

At the end of the day, it becomes about boundaries. The alpha has more leverage to do what he wants, because he holds the most power, but this doesn't mean he can't cross the line.

1) You keep talking as if Harden had an obligation to meet Paul halfway. He did not. When the older player is also the worse player and he says he wants to join the team, the better, younger, existing franchise player is the one who is judge.

Yes, he did. Not halfway necessarily, but if Harden's true intent and best interest in mind was really winning a championship at all costs, he would've sacrificed more. Simple as that. He would've accepted the difference in approach and personality in an attempt to find a work around. He did not, but expected Paul to, which again, is fine because Harden is alpha in this case, but it's a strike on Harden for me, because it shows a lack of awareness/understanding and leadership skills.

We just saw Curry, the undisputed alpha and face of a 73-win team in one of the greatest individual seasons ever, who could do basically whatever he wanted on his team, take a step back to accommodate Durant and make sure his needs are met, because he realized he needed him to secure titles. And you can say an aging CP3 isn't Durant, and that's fine, but it doesn't matter as much. Curry had no reason to limit himself individually to appease Durant, but he did so, he realized it would be the best way to reach the end goal.

Even LeBron made sure Kyrie is comfortable in playing his own way, even though Kyrie's way of playing isn't necessarily the most optimal approach at maximizing winning, LeBron realized the most important thing is that Kyrie is happy and doesn't feel disrespected. And it worked out about as well as it could considering Kyrie's rogue-like bipolar personality.

So yeah, just because you are the alpha on a team, and people are expected to sacrifice and cater to your needs most by default, that does not absolve you from the responsibility of doing the same to a lesser albeit still important degree. And to me, Harden doesn't seem to realize this. Neither does someone like Westbrook. And what makes it worse is both of these guys were heavily supported and pampered by their franchises for this behavior. And that's a big part of why they are in the positions they are. When top talent does play with them, it creates problems. We've seen this multiple times now.

2) We have a sense for how the conflicts started here. Paul is a constant chatterer and Harden is a guy who tends to go silent when he's bothered - until he explodes. It would be one thing if Harden were the one we saw as initiating the conversations that turned negative, but it's just generally known that it was Paul who did this, and has been doing this for a long time. It's one thing not to know how to respond when an alpha starts a negative conversation with you, but it's quite another thing when you're starting conversations with the alpha that he doesn't like. Frankly had it been the other way around, I bet Harden doesn't demand Paul gone.

Just because Paul is more direct/vocal in expressing his discontent doesn't automatically mean he's the source of the problem. Paul had a choice of put up or shut up. And this option only bodes well for so long, especially when shut up means you literally (as a star player nonetheless, not some scrub) can't even express your displeasure and it starts to emotionally effect you on the inside routinely, and then it leaks on-court as well and potentially effects the whole team atmosphere.

It's the age old question on how to deal with the passive-aggressive guy in the room. This becomes even a bigger problem when the passive-aggressive guy has a lot of power like Harden does. Obviously, Harden has no reason to 'initiate' any conversation because he doesn't need to, he's already doing what he wants, win or lose. Communication isn't possible when one side doesn't feel the need to communicate, you are just talking to a wall at that point. CP3 felt like something needed to be said, and as 2nd in command, former alpha himself, a leader, senior player and one of the best players of all-time, it was always going to be either him or nobody else who was going to say it, because Gerald Green sure as hell wasn't going to say anything to Harden. He felt like he needed to take that step to steer things into a different direction, he did it and, as expected, he was met with resistance and that was the end of that chapter in his story. And it's okay. I don't see this as a ''PAUL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLAY WITH AND CANCEROUS'' sign, i see it as two parties having different views on how to move forward that can't coexist, so the right move was made to trade Paul. Being traded away from a contender doesn't automatically mean we assume the worst.

[MartinToVaught]

The media has painted CP3 as if he explodes emotionally and starts whining as soon as things don't go his way.

Because that's exactly what he does. On the court, his response to adversity is to scream at the refs and/or his teammates at the top of his lungs. Off the court, he's quick to criticize others while not accepting any responsibility for his own screw-ups, he acts like a coach instead of a teammate, he always has to be the loudest voice in the room, etc. And that's not speculation, that's what his former teammates have said about him.

The bottom line is that CP3 has lost the benefit of the doubt. People gave him a free pass for turning the Lob City Clippers into a toxic environment because they irrationally hated Blake and assumed that he was the true source of the team's problems. But now that CP3 has pulled the same crap in only two years while playing with an MVP in Harden, it's served as a wake-up call for many of his apologists.

[limbo]

Because that's exactly what he does. On the court, his response to adversity is to scream at the refs and/or his teammates at the top of his lungs. Off the court, he's quick to criticize others while not accepting any responsibility for his own screw-ups, he acts like a coach instead of a teammate, he always has to be the loudest voice in the room, etc. And that's not speculation, that's what his former teammates have said about him.

The bottom line is that CP3 has lost the benefit of the doubt. People gave him a free pass for turning the Lob City Clippers into a toxic environment because they irrationally hated Blake and assumed that he was the true source of the team's problems. But now that CP3 has pulled the same crap in only two years while playing with an MVP in Harden, it's served as a wake-up call for many of his apologists.

That's the vivid part of Paul's personality, i'm not disagreeing, the one most easily identifiable. Every star player comes with his own set of personal traits that carry some type of baggage. LeBron has diva tendencies, Durant seems to be insecure, Westbrook is confident in himself to a fault, Harden is a moody passive-aggressor etc.

What i'm trying to say is the Rockets knew what they were getting themselves into when they got CP3. And if they didn't, they had a year to see it first-hand and they responded by offering him a contract extension. That indicates to me that the problems with Paul's
personality weren't big enough to offset the positives. As soon as he failed to perform to expectation, he was put on the trading block.

I'm just kinda baffled and bothered by how people quickly point out what Paul does wrong, sweeping the positives he brought and sacrifices he made under the rug, while Harden gets to walk scott-free from this debacle.

To me, both of these guys have question marks regarding their abilities to be good leaders and positive influences within locker rooms. They are just on the opposite end of the spectrum on how it comes across. And what i saw in this scenario was Paul suppressing himself and sacrificing way more than Harden. Paul was the one who wanted the the ring more at all costs, Harden was the one who wanted it at his cost. Not saying Harden should've deferred to Paul more in a basketball sense, that was never (nor should it) happening in this case, but to me it looked like too much of a one way relationship in favor of Harden. If you are the alpha of the club and you make it clear to the other star player that he is beneath you in every way, how does that reflect your leadership? Doesn't even pertain to Paul. It could've been Dame Lillard. It happened with Dwight already, but i gave Harden the benefit of the doubt because Dwight has a track record of being a headcase in many ways. Now it happened with CP3, we are again giving Harden a pass because well CP3 is a toxic personality... What's next? It will happen with Westbrook and we will again give Harden a pass because of Westbrook being Westbrook. It just looks to me that because he can stuff a stat sheet he believes he has a monopoly over everyone. Role players will play along because they have no power, but other stars won't let him disrespect them like that.

Bottom line is CP3 made the Clippers relevant. Him and Griffin turned spare parts into a playoff contender and the best offense in the league multiple times. Again, you can blame CP3 for it not resulting in any rings, and i'm not saying he doesn't deserve his share, but again this scapegoatism of Paul just seems more of a witch hunt against him than anything else. Why didn't you mention Griffin throwing temper tantrums, breaking his hand by punching staff members, attitude problems. DeAndre Jordan caring more about getting double-doubles than adding elements to his game over the years, demanding trades. Doc Rivers affinity of signing over the hill veterans that he had good personal relationships with, nepotism and stuff. Should CP3, as the best player and a ferocious competitor just swallow this in tranquility? He's going to point out the BS and others won't like it. It's unfortunate but there's only so much you can do. Either stay quiet and hope it magically gets better (it usually doesn't) or get in people's faces and risk getting the mob mentality run over you (which also isn't the best option). They tried making it work for several years, couldn't, baggage accumulated, it was time to move on. That's life.

[Krodis]

The amount of rampant speculation, finger pointing, and amateur psychoanalysis going on over a situation we know nearly nothing about is pretty silly.

[Outside]

The thing is, Paul knew what he was getting into when he got himself traded to Houston. He said all the right things about going there and adapting to Harden and that style of play.

I can understand souring on it after living it for two years, but the proper response at that point is to figure out what you can do to work within those constraints to make the team better, not unleash the Prick God, blaming everyone but yourself when you signed up for this.

Exact opposite. The Rockets only got into the extreme isolation game in the second half of he 2018 season. Did not get out of of it until the beginning of this year, and then when he went down in December Harden and DAntoni took it up an even higher notch.

The Rockets had a lot more movement and team play in 2017. Thats why Hardens on/off was weak even then.

Harden himself has indicated he’s not happy with how the team plays. He’s a prideful guy that wants MVPs and accolades and recognition of course but I think it’s unlikely that he actually wants to play basketball this way given he had never ever approached the game tha gen ay in his whole career and growing up was seen as way more of a Nash type talent than a Jordan.

The iso game was borne out of necessity. The 2018 Rockets were the best pick and roll team ever, like by far, which makes sense with their personnel, o when the league saw what a train wreck their defensive schemes were they collectively said “alright we’ll just switch this action, what now?” The logical next step for a good offensive coach is to take advantage of the size mistmatch, which in the past meant posting up a guard but in MDA-land means letting your guard go to work against a big. This all happened rapidly around January 2018.

It just so happened the Rockets stumbled into something magical, because 1. With the step back 3 Harden could be about as successful in ISO as most teams are in transition in terms of PPP and 2. It just so happens that their only true rival couldn’t actually match their half court efficiency when they play this style. So by the grace of their amazing defense and ability to slow the game down they were able to grind out a couple key wins against the Dubs and should have won the series playing this style.

But it was only ever a marriage of convenience. Everyone involved (including Harden and MDA) talk openly about how they don’t want to play this way. I imagine with the Warriors out of the picture things will change to some degree.

For the Rockets' sake, I hope you're right. The skills Harden has developed are amazing and so tempting to exploit the way they have, but we've seen it's limitations in the postseason. I'd think the addition of Westbrook would push them to move to a different offense, but we'll see.

[TheGOATRises007]

Westbrook is on a pretty rapid decline. His knees have a lot of work on them and his play style has always been reckless, a la Dwade. I’m expecting him to regress even more because that’s typically what happens.

They do have similar play styles - except that Russ is maybe even more balls to the wall reckless. But the parallels are ominous.

Dwade’s last MVP-caliber season was 2011 or at the age of 29. After that he fell off quite a bit with bad knees. Russ is going on 31 and has also had multiple knee surgeries. I won’t be surprised at all to see a pretty sharp physical decline.

Westbrook's already declined physically.

It was strikingly obviously that he wasn't the athletic freak he used to be last season.

[Doctor MJ]

Evidence the non-superstar players are waking up:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254889/Unnamed-Veteran-Sees-Chris-Pauls-NBPA-As-Prioritizing-Superstars

[Colbinii]

Evidence the non-superstar players are waking up:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/254889/Unnamed-Veteran-Sees-Chris-Pauls-NBPA-As-Prioritizing-Superstars

If only the middle class could do some waking up...