2019 NBA Offseason Discussion

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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#521 » by MyUniBroDavis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:11 am

Yeah, if Im the nets im happy lmao lets chill

KD doesent have a huge injury history and his game means he'll prolly still be stupid good even if he loses a step. The main fear is if it leads to him compensating + more injuries down the line, but I think hes gonna be fine

Kyrie + KD is gonna be lethal, but tbh its a step velow george+Kawhi and lebron+Davis
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#522 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:09 am

“I never heard of an ACL — literally, the 13 years I played, I never heard of an ACL,” Cousy says. “The only thing we dealt with were sprained ankles and charley horses.”


Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#523 » by E-Balla » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:38 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
“I never heard of an ACL — literally, the 13 years I played, I never heard of an ACL,” Cousy says. “The only thing we dealt with were sprained ankles and charley horses.”


Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).

I don't know how everyone won't say LeBron did in his Miami years. Kobe, Wade, and Duncan all restored their quickness in their old age by losing tons of weight too.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#524 » by ardee » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:23 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
“I never heard of an ACL — literally, the 13 years I played, I never heard of an ACL,” Cousy says. “The only thing we dealt with were sprained ankles and charley horses.”


Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).


Re underlined: If no one is strong and everyone relies on skill, one guy will think "Hmm, what if I get jacked and maintain my skill, I'll be able to destroy everyone." He does so, and he does. Then everyone follows because they want the same success.

A competition can always begin with certain intentions about how it is contested but if people see a way to have an advantage, they will take it. I don't think there's much more to that.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#525 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:03 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
“I never heard of an ACL — literally, the 13 years I played, I never heard of an ACL,” Cousy says. “The only thing we dealt with were sprained ankles and charley horses.”


Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).

I don't know how everyone won't say LeBron did in his Miami years. Kobe, Wade, and Duncan all restored their quickness in their old age by losing tons of weight too.


I think Duncan’s weight loss was more about injury prevention IIRC. Don’t remember Wade and Kobe losing weight but if you have links I’d be interested.

Lebron did suffer from it in 2011 but by 2012 he looked as fast as he has ever looked in his career IMO. 2012 May have been his peak overall athleticism and he was still really really big.

Giannis and Harden are the two current guy I’d keep an eye on but Harden looked quicker late this year than he ever has and Giannis has a ways to go before he reaches his ceiling IMO.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#526 » by Eskobar13 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:31 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
My general sense as well. Kyrie/KD coming to Brooklyn already had it's best moment - upstaging the Knicks, and proving that a superstar could take the Nets seriously. Were I the Nets now I'd of course be trying to make this work as well as possible, but they need to not delude themselves into thinking that it's any kind of a given they'll be a Top 5-ish team in the league at any point in the near future.

Until 5 years and 60 games from KD from now when they look like the Knicks of old for throwing the future of the franchise into Kyrie and a 30 year old with an Achilles tear.

If I were the Nets and actually trying to win basketball I would've never even signed those two. I remember the last time everyone said Brooklyn upstaged NY making a move like this and they became the laughingstock to the league on that too (I called it then also).


I don't disagree, but have to note that the Knicks would have done this if they could, and what they did instead doesn't fill me with confidence.


I'm starting to believe more and more that they wouldn't. I'm fully with E-Balla on that, even if I think that they should have.

To be clear, I'm also not that high on the Nets. I think Kyrie gets a lot of undeserved flack for his on-court play, but it seems obvious the locker-room stuff is more than some overblown thing right now. Dude definitely has issues and that affected his teammates in Boston and I wouldn't be surprised if it happened the same thing in BKN where they had such good chemistry before.

That said, not only should Kyrie and a healthy KD be a guarantee of some playoff success, it's not like they don't have an out if things don't work out - they have some good youth (Levert, Allen), they now have draft capital and more importantly, it would take some completely bizarre downfall for both Kyrie and KD that they'd lose all their trade value.

If all it takes is a maxed out D'Angelo Russell, you do what the Nets did 100 times out of 100.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#527 » by E-Balla » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:42 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).

I don't know how everyone won't say LeBron did in his Miami years. Kobe, Wade, and Duncan all restored their quickness in their old age by losing tons of weight too.


I think Duncan’s weight loss was more about injury prevention IIRC. Don’t remember Wade and Kobe losing weight but if you have links I’d be interested.

Lebron did suffer from it in 2011 but by 2012 he looked as fast as he has ever looked in his career IMO. 2012 May have been his peak overall athleticism and he was still really really big.

Giannis and Harden are the two current guy I’d keep an eye on but Harden looked quicker late this year than he ever has and Giannis has a ways to go before he reaches his ceiling IMO.

Duncan's weight loss was for injury prevention but he still looked way quicker and went from averaging 13/9 and 15/9 in back to back seasons back up to 18/10.

Kobe lost 16 pounds headed into the 2013 season which is why he looked so much better than he did in 2011 and 2012.

https://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/fourth-place-medal/kobe-bryant-dropped-16-pounds-olympics-beyond-202942744--oly.html

Wade lost weight during the 2014 offseason and I'd say he looked quicker and way less bulky.

Image

And I don't agree with Miami Lebron being a better athlete than 2009-10 LeBron before he bulked up. I'm sure that's he common perception too.

As far as Giannis and Harden go I think Giannis is good and Harden is long overdue for a cut lol. Great shape, poor shape for an NBA player, he's strong as hell though.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#528 » by E-Balla » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:51 pm

eminence wrote:Not quite as all in as E-Balla, but I don't like what the Net's have done at all. As of right now I think they're worse than they were last season, obviously if KD returns in fairly good form they'll be better off, but A) that's a moderate sized if and B) Even if he does I think they're still well short of contender status.

Well even before the injury I was saying I'd rather the Knicks do absolutely nothing than sign KD and Kyrie unless they were getting AD also. KD/Kyrie isn't enough IMO with both of their mental instability and the whole microscope of being on the Knicks. Then KD tore his achilles and it seemed like a setup to the greatest punchline in Knicks history because what's more Knicks than bringing in Marbury 2.0 AND Stoudemire 2.0 in the same offseason.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Yeah, if Im the nets im happy lmao lets chill

KD doesent have a huge injury history and his game means he'll prolly still be stupid good even if he loses a step. The main fear is if it leads to him compensating + more injuries down the line, but I think hes gonna be fine

Kyrie + KD is gonna be lethal, but tbh its a step velow george+Kawhi and lebron+Davis

Go look at the track record for Achilles injuries. One achilles tear IS a huge injury history in itself.

I would've kept building around DLo because you basically have Kyrie all alone right now. KD, if he does come back, will most likely no longer be a star.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#529 » by The-Power » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:58 pm

E-Balla wrote:KD, if he does come back, will most likely no longer be a star.

If he comes back?
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#530 » by E-Balla » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:29 pm

The-Power wrote:
E-Balla wrote:KD, if he does come back, will most likely no longer be a star.

If he comes back?

Yeah that should 100% say when.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#531 » by Outside » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:40 pm

cpower wrote:
DTrehus5 wrote:Thoughts on which new duo in the NBA is best? My opinions on them..

1. Kawhi and PG - I give them the edge as both are pretty much smack dab in the middle of their primes, are both extremely good 2 way players, and each came of career best seasons.
2. LeBron and AD - If this poll was 2 years ago they'd be number 1 without discussion. But LeBron always seems to defy father time, we'll see if he can continue to do so.
3. Kyrie and KD - A healthy KD is the best player on the planet. Healthy KD and Kyrie duo will be extremely dangerous, and I think will be favorites to win the title in 2021, given the Nets depth and ability to get the most out of their roster.
4. Russ and Harden - I see their play styles clashing, with Russ struggling to fit into Houston's 3 happy offense.

My apologies if I'm missing one, the morning is still early...

Curry/Green.


It's amazing how under the radar the Warriors are. They shouldn't be title favorites, and I get that all the free-agent pairings are shiny and new, but people have just put them in the rear view mirror like they're done.

I also get how the new free-agent pairings makes this all about duos, but Utah is also flying under the radar just because they don't have an all-NBA duo. I'll take their balanced roster over multiple of these duos.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#532 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:49 pm

Outside wrote:
cpower wrote:
DTrehus5 wrote:Thoughts on which new duo in the NBA is best? My opinions on them..

1. Kawhi and PG - I give them the edge as both are pretty much smack dab in the middle of their primes, are both extremely good 2 way players, and each came of career best seasons.
2. LeBron and AD - If this poll was 2 years ago they'd be number 1 without discussion. But LeBron always seems to defy father time, we'll see if he can continue to do so.
3. Kyrie and KD - A healthy KD is the best player on the planet. Healthy KD and Kyrie duo will be extremely dangerous, and I think will be favorites to win the title in 2021, given the Nets depth and ability to get the most out of their roster.
4. Russ and Harden - I see their play styles clashing, with Russ struggling to fit into Houston's 3 happy offense.

My apologies if I'm missing one, the morning is still early...

Curry/Green.


It's amazing how under the radar the Warriors are. They shouldn't be title favorites, and I get that all the free-agent pairings are shiny and new, but people have just put them in the rear view mirror like they're done.

I also get how the new free-agent pairings makes this all about duos, but Utah is also flying under the radar just because they don't have an all-NBA duo. I'll take their balanced roster over multiple of these duos.


I don’t think the Jazz are under the radar at all. I’ve heard multiple media people put them in contention, or even as the favorite, to be the #1 seed and many have them contenders to come out of the West.

I think they’re good. I don’t think they’re win four rounds good. A win total in the mid 50s seems right for them, could reach 60 if they have a good run of health.

But they won’t beat the Lakers, Clippers, or Rockets in the playoffs IMO.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#533 » by Outside » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:35 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Outside wrote:
cpower wrote:Curry/Green.


It's amazing how under the radar the Warriors are. They shouldn't be title favorites, and I get that all the free-agent pairings are shiny and new, but people have just put them in the rear view mirror like they're done.

I also get how the new free-agent pairings makes this all about duos, but Utah is also flying under the radar just because they don't have an all-NBA duo. I'll take their balanced roster over multiple of these duos.


I don’t think the Jazz are under the radar at all. I’ve heard multiple media people put them in contention, or even as the favorite, to be the #1 seed and many have them contenders to come out of the West.

I think they’re good. I don’t think they’re win four rounds good. A win total in the mid 50s seems right for them, could reach 60 if they have a good run of health.

But they won’t beat the Lakers, Clippers, or Rockets in the playoffs IMO.


I agree that they probably aren't four rounds good (love that expression). The point is that the majority of media attention is on the new all-NBA duos, and the Jazz get mentioned as an afterthought, "oh by the way, they'll be good too."

EDIT: I think the Jazz will be very, very good, and I wouldn't be so sure they can't beat the teams you mentioned. The Lakers have yet to prove that the can perform at a top level as a team, and the Rockets have yet to prove that Harden-Westbrook will work. The Clippers seem pretty set, but they are weak at center, and Gobert could be a real problem for them. We'll see.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#534 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:08 pm

ardee wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
“I never heard of an ACL — literally, the 13 years I played, I never heard of an ACL,” Cousy says. “The only thing we dealt with were sprained ankles and charley horses.”


Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).


Re underlined: If no one is strong and everyone relies on skill, one guy will think "Hmm, what if I get jacked and maintain my skill, I'll be able to destroy everyone." He does so, and he does. Then everyone follows because they want the same success.

A competition can always begin with certain intentions about how it is contested but if people see a way to have an advantage, they will take it. I don't think there's much more to that.


Well that was Wilt basically. But it took a long time for the rest of the league to catch up to Wilt.

I’m more wondering though when we will reach a point when the cost in terms of injury frequency and lost quickness will be too much for how big these guys are getting. It really does feel like major, catastrophic injuries are way more common than they used to be and teams and players are getting pretty extreme in terms of load management.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#535 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:13 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Yeah, if Im the nets im happy lmao lets chill

KD doesent have a huge injury history and his game means he'll prolly still be stupid good even if he loses a step. The main fear is if it leads to him compensating + more injuries down the line, but I think hes gonna be fine

Kyrie + KD is gonna be lethal, but tbh its a step velow george+Kawhi and lebron+Davis


Nah I don’t agree. The main fear is he doesn’t ever return to top 10 level. An Achilles injury is the worst injury a basketball player can suffer. There’s a not insignificant chance KD barely (or doesn’t) returns to all-star form after this.

He also has a metal plate in his foot IIRC.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#536 » by mcraft » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:30 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
ardee wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Pretty interesting Bob Cousy quote I found. I’ve long been fascinated by the ever increasing emphasis on size and strength and explosive power in what was originally meant to be a game based on quickness and finesse. Bill Russell as a rookie supposedly weighed in at 220- that’s the size of a modern shooting guard. Harden weight 219 as a rookie and Klay and Donovan Mitchell weighed 216.

Every coaches favorite phrase now is “light in the shorts” and when you’re looking at monstrosities like Lebron and Giannis it is easy to see why. I’ve wondered if the increase in player size would ever come with a downside in terms of quickness but it seems like we haven’t hit that point of diminishing returns yet (although some argue Lebron did in his Miami years).


Re underlined: If no one is strong and everyone relies on skill, one guy will think "Hmm, what if I get jacked and maintain my skill, I'll be able to destroy everyone." He does so, and he does. Then everyone follows because they want the same success.

A competition can always begin with certain intentions about how it is contested but if people see a way to have an advantage, they will take it. I don't think there's much more to that.


Well that was Wilt basically. But it took a long time for the rest of the league to catch up to Wilt.

I’m more wondering though when we will reach a point when the cost in terms of injury frequency and lost quickness will be too much for how big these guys are getting. It really does feel like major, catastrophic injuries are way more common than they used to be and teams and players are getting pretty extreme in terms of load management.
I attribute the rise of strength training in basketball to Jordan. I'm sure he wasn't the first to do it but it seems he brought it mainstream.
As far as injuries Baxter Holmes on ESPN wrote a two part story recently about youth basketball and the increase in injuries among young players. I think the wear and tear talked about in the article attributes to more of the injuries we see in the NBA.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#537 » by Dr Spaceman » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:39 pm

mcraft wrote:I attribute the rise of strength training in basketball to Jordan. I'm sure he wasn't the first to do it but it seems he brought it mainstream.


Among guards maybe. Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Charles Barkley were all of the same generation and took weight training way more seriously than MJ, started way earlier, and saw way more results with it, to say nothing of Shaq. Jordan was an outlier amongst guards at the time but absolutely not overall.

mcraft wrote:As far as injuries Baxter Holmes on ESPN wrote a two part story recently about youth basketball and the increase in injuries among young players. I think the wear and tear talked about in the article attributes to more of the injuries we see in the NBA.


I’ve heard of the Baxter Holmes piece but haven’t read it yet. I’ll take a look now while I have some time. I don’t think there’s a single explanation though. An instructive example is Shaq who absolutely suffered durability issues that became more severe as his size increased.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#538 » by mcraft » Thu Jul 18, 2019 4:52 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
mcraft wrote:I attribute the rise of strength training in basketball to Jordan. I'm sure he wasn't the first to do it but it seems he brought it mainstream.


Among guards maybe. Karl Malone, David Robinson, Olajuwon, Charles Barkley were all of the same generation and took weight training way more seriously than MJ, started way earlier, and saw way more results with it, to say nothing of Shaq. Jordan was an outlier amongst guards at the time but absolutely not overall.

mcraft wrote:As far as injuries Baxter Holmes on ESPN wrote a two part story recently about youth basketball and the increase in injuries among young players. I think the wear and tear talked about in the article attributes to more of the injuries we see in the NBA.


I’ve heard of the Baxter Holmes piece but haven’t read it yet. I’ll take a look now while I have some time. I don’t think there’s a single explanation though. An instructive example is Shaq who absolutely suffered durability issues that became more severe as his size increased.
I'm convinced if Shaq would have stayed closer to his college weight it would have helped him stay more injury free.

I'd love to hear what you think of the article once you read it. I thought it was pretty accurate.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#539 » by Chaos Revenant » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:47 pm

Outside wrote:
cpower wrote:
DTrehus5 wrote:Thoughts on which new duo in the NBA is best? My opinions on them..

1. Kawhi and PG - I give them the edge as both are pretty much smack dab in the middle of their primes, are both extremely good 2 way players, and each came of career best seasons.
2. LeBron and AD - If this poll was 2 years ago they'd be number 1 without discussion. But LeBron always seems to defy father time, we'll see if he can continue to do so.
3. Kyrie and KD - A healthy KD is the best player on the planet. Healthy KD and Kyrie duo will be extremely dangerous, and I think will be favorites to win the title in 2021, given the Nets depth and ability to get the most out of their roster.
4. Russ and Harden - I see their play styles clashing, with Russ struggling to fit into Houston's 3 happy offense.

My apologies if I'm missing one, the morning is still early...

Curry/Green.


It's amazing how under the radar the Warriors are. They shouldn't be title favorites, and I get that all the free-agent pairings are shiny and new, but people have just put them in the rear view mirror like they're done.

I also get how the new free-agent pairings makes this all about duos, but Utah is also flying under the radar just because they don't have an all-NBA duo. I'll take their balanced roster over multiple of these duos.


If not for the injury to Klay, they'd still absolutely be contenders. While a lot of the depth is gone, and they're older, Klay + Curry + Dray won 73 games a couple years ago.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#540 » by Eskobar13 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:31 pm

Chaos Revenant wrote:
Outside wrote:
cpower wrote:Curry/Green.


It's amazing how under the radar the Warriors are. They shouldn't be title favorites, and I get that all the free-agent pairings are shiny and new, but people have just put them in the rear view mirror like they're done.

I also get how the new free-agent pairings makes this all about duos, but Utah is also flying under the radar just because they don't have an all-NBA duo. I'll take their balanced roster over multiple of these duos.


If not for the injury to Klay, they'd still absolutely be contenders. While a lot of the depth is gone, and they're older, Klay + Curry + Dray won 73 games a couple years ago.


And Bogut. And Barnes. And non-washed Iggy... I mean either of these guys' 2016 version would easily be their 4th best player when the season starts. Iggy and Bogut I might even have above Russell. Not to mention Livingston, Ezeli, Barbosa are all likely better than the 5-8 they have now.

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