2019 NBA Offseason Discussion

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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#641 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:54 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Your argument presupposes that Lebron’s interests are better served by an organization taking the long view as opposed to the short view- could you make a case for that? Because I don’t necessarily buy it. Teams operating to maximize a 5 year title window operate very very differently from teams maximizing a 2 year title window.

An instructive example here would be the Thunder. I think a big part of the reason Durant left is because they never really went for it. They made the mistake of assuming their star duo would be there forever- and now none are there. At almost every turn they cut costs to maximize flexibility and it meant they never really put together a serious title contender. As soon as guys ended their rookie deals they were traded away, and they rarely made moves beyond the minimum.

A team on the clock doesn’t operate like that. Teams on the clock trade 1st round picks for Kyle Korver and Marc Gasol and say “we’ll figure it out later”. A team taking the long view says “nah, we’re good with Anthony Morrow for now”.

The difference between the elite, expensive veteran role players and cheaper, younger ones is almost always the difference between winning and losing. Look at what happened in Houston this year. They tried to outsmart everyone by thinking they could replace Ariza with House and it burned them badly. Their title window might be over because of this.

Look at the guys Cleveland was trotting out as their 8-10th men: Iman Shumpert, Richard Jefferson, Timofey Mozgov. These are really good players on fairly expensive contracts. The type of contracts a long-term play type of team doesn’t pay. These guys all contributed towards Cleveland’s title; hell Richard Jefferson started game 6 and basically won them a game.

Now the downside is at the end you’re left with an aging, expensive roster with no flexibility. And for most players, that matters. It doesn’t for Lebron though. He can just bail and get another team to mortgage the future to maximize his window. He’s now done this to three teams, two being marquee, A-List franchises.

So again, can you make a case for Lebron taking the Longview?

I think people underestimate how badly the Mike Miller thing pissed Lebron off. The Heat refused to pay a guy who took a pay cut to go to war with Brom and hit five threes in a Finals game. I think that was the moment Lebron realized teams were always going to act in their own interests despite him, being “on the ground” knowing better. If “ incompetence” is the price to pay for Lebron being listened to I think he’s willing to pay it.


Just big picture: If you're a guy who hopes to have 8+ years of relevance left, you'd think the right move is to go to a franchise that would make the right moves to optimize team performance over those 8 years, and the best way to do that is rarely to make emergency trades giving up 2 first round picks for a guy you'll let go in little over a year and who will then fairly rapidly suck his way out of the league.

We all agree that David Griffin making that deal made a lot of sense...but only because of the pressure LeBron was putting on the Cavs. Had LeBron been able to have faith in his organization he could have said "Whoa, that guy ain't worth that, don't let them squeeze you."

Again, you can say it was all worth it because he got that title, but the Cavs were not behaving the way a team should behave in order to win as many championships as possible with LeBron as their long-term franchise player, they were behaving like their house was on fire and they needed to put it out ASAP.

I fully understand why LeBron saw things as he did, and I'm critiquing what it turned him into. The analogy is a bit like understanding why a woman raised by an abusive father turns into a nightmare of a girlfriend, but that doesn't mean you pretend she's a good girlfriend. Dealing with what is, however it came to be, LeBron's made decisions that have made him less likely to lead dynasties...and I find that really hard to swallow when considering him, say, a serious GOAT candidate.

Not saying he can't end up my GOAT, but the way he's forced this short-term thinking has literally lowered the ceiling of what's possible for him.


I get it, you want him to be Tim Duncan. The hard truth though is that it’s not 1997 anymore. Tim Duncan signed a 7 year contract that ran him from 2003-2010. That contract is literally illegal today.

Every single change made to the CBA since Duncan was in his prime has been in favor of player movement at never before seen levels. Over 50% of players were free agents this summer. The NBA that used to support dynasties does not exist anymore, they killed it on purpose and it’s dead. Player contracts are shorter and the tax scheme is explicitly set up to prevent teams from holding onto good players.

Joining a team with an 8 year plan does LeBron no good. There is almost a 0% chance any player there in year 1 will still be there in year 8. And no GM is skilled enough to dance around this minefield of player movement to keep a team afloat for 8 years with entirely different personnel. It’s absurd. Ask Boston. Ask OKC. Ask the Kawhi-era Spurs. Ask all the planners.

Fortune favors the bold, my friend. The Raptors are champions because they traded the farm for a guy who left after a year and followed that up by trading picks and good assets for an aging center on an albatross contract. Banners fly forever. Would you rather be Massai or Danny Ainge right now? One stayed conservative and has a decent future. One went for it and gave his fans the experience of a lifetime.

I don’t think any of this is Bron’s fault. He is ahead of the curve. Something like 70% of the 2017 all-stars are now on new teams. This is the new normal.

EDIT: if,you follow the transaction game, the rate at which teams are trading draft picks is also pretty unprecedented at least this century.


I'm not looking for him to be Duncan. I'm looking for him, if he's going to chase super-team after super-team, to win "not 7" titles like he clearly was aiming for back when he said "not 7".

Can you imagine if the Clippers win the title this year? It was one thing for Steph to match LeBron's title count, but if Kawhi matches him to all while he's still trying to game the system for maximum success? It's crazy. Yes there's some luck involved, but I wouldn't be making these statements if I thought the only story was a freakishly good Warriors team. I see LeBron making problematic moves that to me don't serve him as well as he could have been served, and I really wish it were otherwise.

I think LeBron is the single greatest basketball talent we've ever seen even before you factor in his potential for off-the-charts longevity, and I think he's hampered his GOAT candidacy in frustrating short-sighted ways that I'd have thought he'd be wise enough to play better.

ftr, I hope that Steph Curry is like Duncan. I absolutely think you can still get that in this age...but it has to come on a franchise operating more like the Spurs than the Cavs.

Re: 8 year plan no good. I'm not actually suggesting that LeBron should think with that many years in mind, really I'm just trying to emphasize there are clear decisions being made that are obviously bad decisions. Mozgov played less than 6 MPG in the Cavs championship playoff run and didn't play at all in the Game 7 against the Warriors. And then they let him go. If the Cavs had never traded for Mozgov, literally the only reason to think they wouldn't have been in better shape is LeBron's attitude. Basketball-wise, they didn't need him to build a title-winner and could have used those assets for something actually useful when the time was ripe, but instead they made a panic move while LeBron was taking a WTF mid-season vacation.

People wanted to defend it as LeBron putting their foot to the fire, and I get it, and I also get that the fact that all of a sudden the Cavs were way better made people think Mozgov was a really defensible move, but we can look back now and see pretty clearly how ridiculous it all was.

Re: Masai or Danny. Masai acquired Kawhi, Danny acquired KG, the Cavs acquired Mozgov. C'mon now.

Re: LeBron's ahead of the curve. He's ahead of the curve in recognizing his power and using it. I'm all for both of those teams, I"m criticizing his performance in deciding how to use his power.

Re: Rate of draft pick trading up. It is precisely for the reasons we're talking about, and it's a dangerous game for all these guys. I'm not saying that forcing a short-term play is never the right move for one of these guys, but if you're going to spend long-term assets for a shot right now, you best not miss.
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2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#642 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:02 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Warriors are currently valued at 3.5 billion while the Bucks are more like 1.5 billion. Such numbers aren't "true value" of course, but I think the difference here has a lot to do with geography. The Bay Area is swimming in money, Wisconsin is not.


A ton of it is geography, but at least some small part of it is success before blowing past the cap as well.

I'm not too upset by the Warriors being able to hang on to their pieces, one of the most home grown teams around at this point, only one guy (Russell) that isn't a draftee or a near minimum.


The Bucks are home-grown as well though. Or at least were, with their core of Giannis, Middleton and Brogdon.

The tax is the tax. If the Warriors can keep their homegrown talent and the Bucks can’t then the system is broken. I don’t want to live in a world where one team can just outspend everyone else.


The part that kills me is that Bledsoe isn't homegrown. They appear to developed a championship winning trio almost from scratch and then given up on one of them in favor of a worse older player who theyacquired later. If Bledsoe ends up holding them back and it seems to them titles post-Brogdan, the Bucks' decision making here will go down as pretty awful.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#643 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:22 am

eminence wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:
A ton of it is geography, but at least some small part of it is success before blowing past the cap as well.

I'm not too upset by the Warriors being able to hang on to their pieces, one of the most home grown teams around at this point, only one guy (Russell) that isn't a draftee or a near minimum.


The Bucks are home-grown as well though. Or at least were, with their core of Giannis, Middleton and Brogdon.

The tax is the tax. If the Warriors can keep their homegrown talent and the Bucks can’t then the system is broken. I don’t want to live in a world where one team can just outspend everyone else.


The tax is the tax, but the Bucks would've shortly blown past the Warriors luxury tax bill bringing back Brogdon without other major moves. That Giannis extension looms. If they hadn't brought back Bledsoe they'd be in a very similar situation to GS going forward (big 3 draftees earning approx 90m (40/30/20), with another mini-max worth of guys Russell vs Lopez/Hill/Ilyasova).


That’s true but the Warriors are hard-capped this year due to the Russell sign and trade. If that weren’t the case they could have kept Iguodala and used the mid-level exception, and they’d have another tax bill between $50-60 million.

Bucks screwed up though, no argument from me.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#644 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Sep 6, 2019 7:00 am

Thoughts on Malcolm Brogdon? I think he’s the most interesting player in the league for me this year. A guard who is THAT efficient in a limited role usually goes on to do great things in the league. I’m not saying he’s James Harden, but I think he could have a breakout season like Goran Dragoc in 2014 or Kyle Lowry in 2013. The difference in the Bucks offense when he came backs as pretty stark. I think we could be talking about him as an all-star next year.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#645 » by AussieBuck » Fri Sep 6, 2019 8:38 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:Thoughts on Malcolm Brogdon? I think he’s the most interesting player in the league for me this year. A guard who is THAT efficient in a limited role usually goes on to do great things in the league. I’m not saying he’s James Harden, but I think he could have a breakout season like Goran Dragoc in 2014 or Kyle Lowry in 2013. The difference in the Bucks offense when he came backs as pretty stark. I think we could be talking about him as an all-star next year.

Made a living attacking scrambling closeouts with the worst opposing defender on him. Doesn't fit the mould of underutilized future star at all.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#646 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Sep 6, 2019 2:27 pm

AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Thoughts on Malcolm Brogdon? I think he’s the most interesting player in the league for me this year. A guard who is THAT efficient in a limited role usually goes on to do great things in the league. I’m not saying he’s James Harden, but I think he could have a breakout season like Goran Dragoc in 2014 or Kyle Lowry in 2013. The difference in the Bucks offense when he came backs as pretty stark. I think we could be talking about him as an all-star next year.

Made a living attacking scrambling closeouts with the worst opposing defender on him. Doesn't fit the mould of underutilized future star at all.


Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#647 » by eminence » Fri Sep 6, 2019 2:39 pm

I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#648 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Sep 6, 2019 3:10 pm

eminence wrote:I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.


It’s very common for lead guards like him to break out late. Lowry made his first all-star team at 28, Billups 29. Dragic never made all-star but made All-NBA for the only time at 27. He has a lot of good years ahead of him still.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#649 » by eminence » Fri Sep 6, 2019 3:44 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.


It’s very common for lead guards like him to break out late. Lowry made his first all-star team at 28, Billups 29. Dragic never made all-star but made All-NBA for the only time at 27. He has a lot of good years ahead of him still.


I mean, absolutely he has some time and plenty of good years left, but you were talking about him understanding the PnR so young, to me it looks like he got it at a pretty average age for guys who wind up getting it.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#650 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:11 pm

eminence wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.


It’s very common for lead guards like him to break out late. Lowry made his first all-star team at 28, Billups 29. Dragic never made all-star but made All-NBA for the only time at 27. He has a lot of good years ahead of him still.


I mean, absolutely he has some time and plenty of good years left, but you were talking about him understanding the PnR so young, to me it looks like he got it at a pretty average age for guys who wind up getting it.


Ah I see.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#651 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri Sep 6, 2019 4:11 pm

eminence wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.


It’s very common for lead guards like him to break out late. Lowry made his first all-star team at 28, Billups 29. Dragic never made all-star but made All-NBA for the only time at 27. He has a lot of good years ahead of him still.


I mean, absolutely he has some time and plenty of good years left, but you were talking about him understanding the PnR so young, to me it looks like he got it at a pretty average age for guys who wind up getting it.


Ah I see.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#652 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Sep 6, 2019 6:12 pm

Brogdon has health concerns, but otherwise he'll be a very good player - he could make the all star team in the East if the cards fall right.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#653 » by AussieBuck » Fri Sep 6, 2019 10:49 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:Thoughts on Malcolm Brogdon? I think he’s the most interesting player in the league for me this year. A guard who is THAT efficient in a limited role usually goes on to do great things in the league. I’m not saying he’s James Harden, but I think he could have a breakout season like Goran Dragoc in 2014 or Kyle Lowry in 2013. The difference in the Bucks offense when he came backs as pretty stark. I think we could be talking about him as an all-star next year.

Made a living attacking scrambling closeouts with the worst opposing defender on him. Doesn't fit the mould of underutilized future star at all.


Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.

He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#654 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Sep 7, 2019 4:28 am

AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Made a living attacking scrambling closeouts with the worst opposing defender on him. Doesn't fit the mould of underutilized future star at all.


Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.

He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.

What does being a point guard have to do with anything?
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#655 » by Dr Spaceman » Sat Sep 7, 2019 6:57 am

AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:Made a living attacking scrambling closeouts with the worst opposing defender on him. Doesn't fit the mould of underutilized future star at all.


Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.

He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.


Mike Conley has the exact same shooting form. I see 0 cause for concern on that front.

Re: weapons, he has a very advanced floater game, dragic-esque craft around the rim, and can shoot threes off the dribble. He lacks an in-between game but other than that he has 3/4 tools you need to be an excellent pick and roll handler. He’s not Chris Paul but he’s very advanced for a third year player.

Re: second units, that has never been a real concern unless the guy has real concerns with size or athleticism, neither of which are a concern with brogdon.

Your exact second unit concerns were brought up repeatedly in regards to James Harden on OKC, and well we know how that turned out.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1150270

Brogdon showed out in the playoffs this year even coming off a serious injury. Tools are tools and if he can get it done against one of the best defenses ever in the postseason I don’t see why this is even a concern.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#656 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Sep 8, 2019 3:14 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
eminence wrote:I lean towards Brogdon doing well (borderline Allstar type), but he's not all that young, he'll be 27 this season.


It’s very common for lead guards like him to break out late. Lowry made his first all-star team at 28, Billups 29. Dragic never made all-star but made All-NBA for the only time at 27. He has a lot of good years ahead of him still.


ftr Dragic became an all-star in Miami sneaking in one year.


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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#657 » by AussieBuck » Mon Sep 9, 2019 11:39 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.

He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.


Mike Conley has the exact same shooting form. I see 0 cause for concern on that front.

Re: weapons, he has a very advanced floater game, dragic-esque craft around the rim, and can shoot threes off the dribble. He lacks an in-between game but other than that he has 3/4 tools you need to be an excellent pick and roll handler. He’s not Chris Paul but he’s very advanced for a third year player.

Re: second units, that has never been a real concern unless the guy has real concerns with size or athleticism, neither of which are a concern with brogdon.

Your exact second unit concerns were brought up repeatedly in regards to James Harden on OKC, and well we know how that turned out.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1150270

Brogdon showed out in the playoffs this year even coming off a serious injury. Tools are tools and if he can get it done against one of the best defenses ever in the postseason I don’t see why this is even a concern.

Conley can shoot contested threes, Brogdon doesn't even try to shoot if a defender is anywhere near him. It's a smart move because he can't shoot over any nearby defender but it also limits his ability to create. That and his lack of footspeed means that he generally needs someone else to move the defense for him. Again I don't believe you've watched him very closely.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#658 » by AussieBuck » Mon Sep 9, 2019 11:41 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Wow I could disagree more. He had a really down year with his pull up jumper (percentages were atrocious- 32% from 2 and 26% from 3) but just last year his pull-up was near best in league levels- 48% from 2 and 45% from 3. Given his overall percentages and the fact he shoots 48% on catch and shoot I’m way more inclined to believe his pull up will come back.

In 2017-18 he scored .97 points per possession on the pick and roll- that’s well into elite territory. Chris Paul that year Was 1.02. Pick and roll aptitude is usually the last thing that develops for a guard so it’s a good sign he gets it so young.

He’s gonna be good. He’s already one of the most effective shooters in the league and if his pull up gets near the level it was in 2017-18 he’s gonna kill it.

He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.

What does being a point guard have to do with anything?

Point guard, lead guard, primary playmaker, call it what you will. He isn't it.
Gooner wrote:
Saint Lazarus wrote:Giannis wouldn't even be an all-star if refs accurately called his travels and offensive fouls



Bruno Caboclo would be an all star if he played under Giannis "rules".
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#659 » by ShotCreator » Mon Sep 9, 2019 4:30 pm

Brogdon did 23.4P/6A per 75 poss on 62 TS% without Giannis in the RS/PS on the season.

Prime Dragic is not a bad comparison, especially with how much of a slasher he is. I was always surprised by how easily he would get a ball on the glass in traffic. Plays "big".

He is in that Parker/Dragic mold of score-first slashing guards. Thing is I have never seen those guys as that good. Its high praise but nothing unrealistic IMO.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: 2019 NBA Offseason Discussion 

Post#660 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 9, 2019 4:43 pm

AussieBuck wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
AussieBuck wrote:He shoots from shoulder height, can't see his pull up becoming an interesting part of his game. He can play some pick and roll with second units but he doesn't have have any weapons to make it work against starting units. He's really not a pg at all. Damn good utility guard but it feels like you're describing a guy you haven't watched much.


Mike Conley has the exact same shooting form. I see 0 cause for concern on that front.

Re: weapons, he has a very advanced floater game, dragic-esque craft around the rim, and can shoot threes off the dribble. He lacks an in-between game but other than that he has 3/4 tools you need to be an excellent pick and roll handler. He’s not Chris Paul but he’s very advanced for a third year player.

Re: second units, that has never been a real concern unless the guy has real concerns with size or athleticism, neither of which are a concern with brogdon.

Your exact second unit concerns were brought up repeatedly in regards to James Harden on OKC, and well we know how that turned out.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1150270

Brogdon showed out in the playoffs this year even coming off a serious injury. Tools are tools and if he can get it done against one of the best defenses ever in the postseason I don’t see why this is even a concern.

Conley can shoot contested threes, Brogdon doesn't even try to shoot if a defender is anywhere near him. It's a smart move because he can't shoot over any nearby defender but it also limits his ability to create. That and his lack of footspeed means that he generally needs someone else to move the defense for him. Again I don't believe you've watched him very closely.


Conley is awful at contested threes- 16% in the 2019 season. Brogdon hits a higher percentage. Matter of fact there are basically only four players in the entire league who consistently hit threes when defenders are close - Harden, Curry, Irving and Lillard. It’s a weird point of comparison because hitting contested threes is such an elite and rare skill that it makes no sense to say a guy can’t be a star without doing it.
“I’m not the fastest guy on the court, but I can dictate when the race begins.”

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