2019 NBA Offseason Discussion

[MisterHibachi]

Apparently there's a few Tencent reporters, and probably other mainland China based reporters, who get a vote on year-end awards. Wonder how Harden's MVP votes will be impacted this year if Rockets continue to be persona non grata in China.

On principle, a media member shouldn't get a vote if they're not able to watch all 30 teams.

[Colbinii]

“We’re strongly dissatisfied and oppose Adam Silver’s claim to support Morey’s right to freedom of expression,” CCTV said in a statement. “We believe that any remarks that challenge national sovereignty and social stability are not within the scope of freedom of speech.”

"We believe in freedom of speech, but only when it is beneficial to us" -China

[Dr Positivity]

Daryl Morey should step down. He either made an idiotic error, or willingly caused disruption in the NBA and cost them millions that many others will pay the price for including his owner. The NBA supporting Hong Kong or taking any political sides wasn't his call to make. If he felt that strongly about taking a stand then quit and do it then when he doesn't represent 30 teams. He will get another job easily anyways. I doubted his longevity on the Rockets anyways since Tillman "Shut up and Listen" Fertitta will probably become convinced at some point that he's such a genius that he should make every basketball decision

[E-Balla]

I really don't get why there's this rage at the NBA or Rockets if they do fire Morey. He made an egregious error and cost them 10% of their income as a league (if we assume they lose all their Chinese cash flow). That's a big deal.

I get it if the NBA stands behind him but I feel they're only doing it because of American fans and how they'd react (which is strange to me, why do Americans have such strong feelings either way here? I know we like feeling morally superior to China but sheesh).

[eminence]

Actually been pretty happy with Silver's bounce back in the most recent press conference.

[yoyoboy]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

[E-Balla]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

[eminence]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

What a load of crap.

[E-Balla]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

What a load of crap.

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

What a load of crap.

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

Then you should likely read up on how it went back to China and under what terms were agreed upon.

Also, what on earth do the people living on Hong Kong now have to do from back when it was a vacant island in the mid 1800s? You talk like Hong Kong was some grand possession - China gave Hong Kong away because Hong Kong was a mountainous island with no one living on it. It isn't comparable to cities like Shanghai in any means. The entire history of Hong Kong is modern. Not even remotely comparable to African Colonialism.

You're talking like Hong Kong is an island of Uncle Toms or something. The people there do not owe anything to anyone.

I don't think you really know Hong Kong's history all that well - you're basically saying it's history is just it was ceded to the UK via the Opium Wars and everything else that happened in between now and then is rather irrelevant. I mean Hong Kong protesters are wrong because they were a British territory back in the day? If Hong Kong citizens do not have a right to protest about Hong Kong then who does?

[eminence]

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

What a load of crap.

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

The Brits take an uninhabited Hong Kong from the Qings in ~1840 (along with a whole bunch else). The ROC overthrows the Qings in ~1910. The ROC is then shuffled off to Taiwan in ~1950 by the PRC. This whole time Hong Kong is growing (and relatively thriving) as a British territory. What is your justification for the PRC taking Hong Kong in 2020?

[E-Balla]

Then you should likely read up on how it went back to China and under what terms were agreed upon.

Yeah GB said 99 years because they had no intention of giving it back, didn't have the power to keep it when the end of the lease was near, and China gave them a 50 year grace period even though they really didn't have to. Hong Kong is still China, no matter of the existence of the grace period. Margaret Thatcher had no business even giving them terms to handing over what was rightfully there's peacefully. China wasn't in a financial place to say they don't agree to the terms.

Also, what on earth do the people living on Hong Kong now have to do from back when it was a vacant island in the mid 1800s? You talk like Hong Kong was some grand possession - China gave Hong Kong away because Hong Kong was a mountainous island with no one living on it. It isn't comparable to cities like Shanghai in any means. The entire history of Hong Kong is modern. Not even remotely comparable to African Colonialism.

Hong Kong island was never vacant. That reads similar to the argument South Africa was uninhabited prior to the Dutch arriving.

You're talking like Hong Kong is an island of Uncle Toms or something. The people there do not owe anything to anyone.

When Hong Kong gets their own military and doesn't use Chinese infrastructure at all I'll agree on this. Until then they clearly owe a lot to the country they're a part of.

And to the Uncle Tom comments I'm not deriding people for their generational Stockholm Syndrome I'd be a hypocrite to do so because my ass hasn't left the US yet. I can at least recognize it for what it is though. Hong Kongers are a people without an identity. They're Chinese but have been colonized long enough to no longer feel Chinese and don't want to really ever be Chinese.

I don't think you really know Hong Kong's history all that well - you're basically saying it's history is just it was ceded to the UK via the Opium Wars and everything else that happened in between now and then is rather irrelevant.

Everything else in their history is totally irrelevant to the argument of whether or not Hong Kong is a part of China, like it or not.

I mean Hong Kong protesters are wrong because they were a British territory back in the day? If Hong Kong citizens do not have a right to protest about Hong Kong then who does?

When did I ever say they shouldn't have a right to protest? When did I ever condemn the protesters? What I said was Morey messed up when he openly supported western imperialism in China, which is what he did, and that there's really no good side to this. One side you have Western imperialism, one side you have Chinese authoritarianism and human rights violations out the wazoo. I'm not picking either side and I don't feel it's my place to take either side, I'll just hope China doesn't kill the protestors and they find a way to peacefully integrate back to China because it's going to happen some day like it or not.

[E-Balla]

What a load of crap.

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

The Brits take an uninhabited Hong Kong from the Qings in ~1840 (along with a whole bunch else). The ROC overthrows the Qings in ~1910. The ROC is then shuffled off to Taiwan in ~1950 by the PRC. This whole time Hong Kong is growing (and relatively thriving) as a British territory. What is your justification for the PRC taking Hong Kong in 2020?

If Hong Kong is uninhabited where the hell did all the Chinese people come from?

As for the last sentence Hong Kong is a part of the PRC already. They've been so since 1997.

[eminence]

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

The Brits take an uninhabited Hong Kong from the Qings in ~1840 (along with a whole bunch else). The ROC overthrows the Qings in ~1910. The ROC is then shuffled off to Taiwan in ~1950 by the PRC. This whole time Hong Kong is growing (and relatively thriving) as a British territory. What is your justification for the PRC taking Hong Kong in 2020?

If Hong Kong is uninhabited where the hell did all the Chinese people come from?

As for the last sentence Hong Kong is a part of the PRC already. They've been so since 1997.

I'll let you have that it wasn't uninhabited, but there was no significant settlement prior to the Brits. Long story short actual people matter a hell of a lot more than land ownership arguments to me. Should the Lenape govern Manhattan starting tomorrow, I would say pretty strongly no.

We're all aware Deng successfully evicted Thatcher. Hong Kong is largely rioting currently due to (perceived at least) PRC violations of that 1997 agreement (I want to say they call it 'Basic Law'?), not due to any real hope or want to secede (as best I can tell Hong Kong largely wants to honor the '97 agreement and it's the PRC who wants to scrap it and get the whole process over with).

[E-Balla]

The Brits take an uninhabited Hong Kong from the Qings in ~1840 (along with a whole bunch else). The ROC overthrows the Qings in ~1910. The ROC is then shuffled off to Taiwan in ~1950 by the PRC. This whole time Hong Kong is growing (and relatively thriving) as a British territory. What is your justification for the PRC taking Hong Kong in 2020?

If Hong Kong is uninhabited where the hell did all the Chinese people come from?

As for the last sentence Hong Kong is a part of the PRC already. They've been so since 1997.

I'll let you have that it wasn't uninhabited, but there was no significant settlement prior to the Brits. Long story short actual people matter a hell of a lot more than land ownership arguments to me. Should the Lenape govern Manhattan starting tomorrow, I would say pretty strongly no.

And I'd strongly disagree. If tomorrow the remaining Native Nations decided they wanted to fight to control the USA I'd support them wholeheartedly. **** I supported the Dakota Pipeline Access Protests, it only makes sense I'd feel the same way here. The people matter only in that the Native peoples of the land and their wills matter. I don't give even half a thought to the European claims of ownership on anything in North America. To do so would be to support savage behavior and genocide.

We're all aware Deng successfully evicted Thatcher. Hong Kong is largely rioting currently due to (perceived at least) PRC violations of that 1997 agreement (I want to say they call it 'Basic Law'?), not due to any real hope or want to secede (as best I can tell Hong Kong largely wants to honor the '97 agreement and it's the PRC who wants to scrap it and get the whole process over with).

The way I see it Hong Kong doesn't want to honor the agreement but is attempting to use it as a shield for as long as possible. The whole reason China tried to implement a pro-China governor was that they saw the writing on the wall and now that they have the power to make HK start bending to their will they're doing so. Remember they gain full control under the treaty in less than 30 years. There was no realistic way HK was going to start bending to their will in 2047 if they had no want to do so halfway through the 50 year grace period.

China clearly has no intention to honor the deal but why should they? If I put a gun to your head, stole your laptop, changed it (let's say I installed Linux on it and you like Windows), forced you to "lease" it to me for free, then once that lease was up forced you to keep that OS for half the time of that "lease" I'd hope you'd tell me to **** off.

[eminence]

If Hong Kong is uninhabited where the hell did all the Chinese people come from?

As for the last sentence Hong Kong is a part of the PRC already. They've been so since 1997.

I'll let you have that it wasn't uninhabited, but there was no significant settlement prior to the Brits. Long story short actual people matter a hell of a lot more than land ownership arguments to me. Should the Lenape govern Manhattan starting tomorrow, I would say pretty strongly no.

And I'd strongly disagree. If tomorrow the remaining Native Nations decided they wanted to fight to control the USA I'd support them wholeheartedly. **** I supported the Dakota Pipeline Access Protests, it only makes sense I'd feel the same way here. The people matter only in that the Native peoples of the land and their wills matter. I don't give even half a thought to the European claims of ownership on anything in North America. To do so would be to support savage behavior and genocide.

We're all aware Deng successfully evicted Thatcher. Hong Kong is largely rioting currently due to (perceived at least) PRC violations of that 1997 agreement (I want to say they call it 'Basic Law'?), not due to any real hope or want to secede (as best I can tell Hong Kong largely wants to honor the '97 agreement and it's the PRC who wants to scrap it and get the whole process over with).

The way I see it Hong Kong doesn't want to honor the agreement but is attempting to use it as a shield for as long as possible. The whole reason China tried to implement a pro-China governor was that they saw the writing on the wall and now that they have the power to make HK start bending to their will they're doing so. Remember they gain full control under the treaty in less than 30 years. There was no realistic way HK was going to start bending to their will in 2047 if they had no want to do so halfway through the 50 year grace period.

China clearly has no intention to honor the deal but why should they? If I put a gun to your head, stole your laptop, changed it (let's say I installed Linux on it and you like Windows), forced you to "lease" it to me for free, then once that lease was up forced you to keep that OS for half the time of that "lease" I'd hope you'd tell me to **** off.

So how far back does your stance go? 1000 AD? 1000 BC? 10000 BC? When is it okay to move on? Where are we each native to? Where does my half German (allegedly - I've only tracked to about 1850) and half Sicangu Oyote opinion matter?

Sounds like some half assed justifications for poor behavior from China on your part.

An analogy between a laptop and very real changes to the lives of millions of people is probably not worth discussion.

Edit: And we should probably move this to the off-topic thread, lol.

[Jim Naismith]

I'm not one for defending western imperialism but that's just me. Beyond that he's messing with his boss' money and that's always a no no especially when it's to pick a side in a fight between 2 wrong sides.

What a load of crap.

Read up on the history of Hong Kong and why it isn't a part of China like how Shanghai is. I'll never criticize a people for undoing the vestiges of European imperialism. Whether that's South Africa taking land last year or China trying to gain the ability to extradite people from a city in their own country.

Regrettably, there were foreign enclaves ( "concessions") in Shanghai and other mainland Chinese cities that were essentially mini-colonies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessions_in_China

[Doctor MJ]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

So, I'm just jumping in here and reading the posts, which means maybe I should just keep silent, but my feelings are not heated on this. My first thought?

Morey did that? Has he been politically active like this before? I had no idea he had this in him. Whether you think he's right or wrong, just the fact he did this is astonishing to me.

It's not because he's in the NBA because it wouldn't surprise me at all if some players did it.
It's not because he's not a player because I could totally see Steve Kerr doing something like this.

Maybe it's because he's a GM, but more than anything else, it seems precisely the sort of thing that Morey would be too calculated to do...thought I make no claim that "I thought I knew him". I just didn't see it coming. He's maybe the last employee in the league I expected to touch this 3rd rail.

And part of it is who this new owner is. Morey had to know it would make his boss consider firing him, and had to know that even if he didn't lose his job, his dynamic with his boss was going to get worse.

This feels like a guy who has realized he's completely fine with losing his job for speaking his mind...and maybe he's even hoping to get fired.

To be clear: I'm not trying to imply Morey didn't believe what he tweeted, I just think we've all bitten our tongue when we knew speaking what was on our minds would cause us trouble, and so when someone in a position stops biting his tongue, it's probably a combination of his passion for the issue and where he is in his career.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's firing after the season starts and he never works for a boss again.

[Dr Spaceman]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

So, I'm just jumping in here and reading the posts, which means maybe I should just keep silent, but my feelings are not heated on this. My first thought?

Morey did that? Has he been politically active like this before? I had no idea he had this in him. Whether you think he's right or wrong, just the fact he did this is astonishing to me.

It's not because he's in the NBA because it wouldn't surprise me at all if some players did it.
It's not because he's not a player because I could totally see Steve Kerr doing something like this.

Maybe it's because he's a GM, but more than anything else, it seems precisely the sort of thing that Morey would be too calculated to do...thought I make no claim that "I thought I knew him". I just didn't see it coming. He's maybe the last employee in the league I expected to touch this 3rd rail.

And part of it is who this new owner is. Morey had to know it would make his boss consider firing him, and had to know that even if he didn't lose his job, his dynamic with his boss was going to get worse.

This feels like a guy who has realized he's completely fine with losing his job for speaking his mind...and maybe he's even hoping to get fired.

To be clear: I'm not trying to imply Morey didn't believe what he tweeted, I just think we've all bitten our tongue when we knew speaking what was on our minds would cause us trouble, and so when someone in a position stops biting his tongue, it's probably a combination of his passion for the issue and where he is in his career.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's firing after the season starts and he never works for a boss again.

I am not sure if I agree here. I think it is totally within the realm of possibility Morey had no idea his words would cause this cataclysmic response. I think it’s totally possible Morey was following the trend of some of his peers (Kerr, POP, LeBron) being empowered to voice their political opinions and saw fit to do the same.

Turns out there is a limit to the NBA’s progressivism and Morey found it. The NBA is happy to support free speech until it affects their earnings.

[Jim Naismith]

I'm glad this incident happened because it's always nice to see the true character of certain posters revealed. I can't imagine looking at this situation and coming away from it feeling Morey is the party in the wrong.

And good on Silver for showing some grit today.

So, I'm just jumping in here and reading the posts, which means maybe I should just keep silent, but my feelings are not heated on this. My first thought?

Morey did that? Has he been politically active like this before? I had no idea he had this in him. Whether you think he's right or wrong, just the fact he did this is astonishing to me.

It's not because he's in the NBA because it wouldn't surprise me at all if some players did it.
It's not because he's not a player because I could totally see Steve Kerr doing something like this.

Maybe it's because he's a GM, but more than anything else, it seems precisely the sort of thing that Morey would be too calculated to do...thought I make no claim that "I thought I knew him". I just didn't see it coming. He's maybe the last employee in the league I expected to touch this 3rd rail.

And part of it is who this new owner is. Morey had to know it would make his boss consider firing him, and had to know that even if he didn't lose his job, his dynamic with his boss was going to get worse.

This feels like a guy who has realized he's completely fine with losing his job for speaking his mind...and maybe he's even hoping to get fired.

To be clear: I'm not trying to imply Morey didn't believe what he tweeted, I just think we've all bitten our tongue when we knew speaking what was on our minds would cause us trouble, and so when someone in a position stops biting his tongue, it's probably a combination of his passion for the issue and where he is in his career.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's firing after the season starts and he never works for a boss again.

I am not sure if I agree here. I think it is totally within the realm of possibility Morey had no idea his words would cause this cataclysmic response. I think it’s totally possible Morey was following the trend of some of his peers (Kerr, POP, LeBron) being empowered to voice their political opinions and saw fit to do the same.

Turns out there is a limit to the NBA’s progressivism and Morey found it. The NBA is happy to support free speech until it affects their earnings.

Progressivism is not consistently pro-free speech.

The NBA banned Donald Sterling for a private conversation in his own home on American soil.

Overwhelming majority of American progressives cheered this decision.