The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20

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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#521 » by ardee » Tue Jul 9, 2019 1:06 am

eminence wrote:
ardee wrote:
eminence wrote:
Ahh, box-score stats. Sure I guess Javale gets those.


I don't get it. When the ball bounces off the back board do you not want him to be there to get it? When the guy he's guarding throws up a weak floater do you want him to just stand there and let it go in?

He is not Joel Embiid but he's easily an average center at least. His on-off was +10 in GSW a couple years ago, when he's in a smaller, more specific role surrounded by capable teammates the guy does decent.


Sure, you want him to do those things, those are positive things, every NBA player does them or else they wouldn't be in the NBA. When I hear 'productive player' I think of a player who does notably more positive than negative on the court. Which McGee does not. And 1 sub 10mpg season when he spent over 80% of his minutes with Steph Curry isn't convincing me otherwise.


Not the point. Sometimes people on this board make it sound like box score production is a negative to be held against a player.

It is still a pretty reliable way to find out if a player is good or not. Of course you need more nuance to find out just how good but it's no coincidence that literally every great player ever is a statsheet stuffer.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#522 » by Baski » Tue Jul 9, 2019 7:28 am

Ainosterhaspie wrote:Anyone remember Danny Green in the 2013 finals? I though he was the MVP front runner through game 5. He was killing the Heat and capped it going 6/10 from 3 in game 5. Spurs don't come as close as they did without him and I can't remember anyone ever talking about that. Since then I've always thought he'd be a great piece next to LeBron.

As an aside, that's one of several data points that Curry didn't invent the three point revolution. See also the 2009 Magic and the Rockets shirts to 3s and layups before 2015. He was the culmination of a trend.

Curry inventing the 3pt evolution was always nonsense. He tends to get credited with starting a lot of already established NBA concepts and I have no idea why.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#523 » by JVL » Tue Jul 9, 2019 8:24 am

Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:Anyone remember Danny Green in the 2013 finals? I though he was the MVP front runner through game 5. He was killing the Heat and capped it going 6/10 from 3 in game 5. Spurs don't come as close as they did without him and I can't remember anyone ever talking about that. Since then I've always thought he'd be a great piece next to LeBron.

As an aside, that's one of several data points that Curry didn't invent the three point revolution. See also the 2009 Magic and the Rockets shirts to 3s and layups before 2015. He was the culmination of a trend.

Curry inventing the 3pt evolution was always nonsense. He tends to get credited with starting a lot of already established NBA concepts and I have no idea why.


Inventing might be a strong word, but you can't deny Curry is the poster child of the 3pt shot evolution:

Image
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#524 » by Baski » Tue Jul 9, 2019 6:46 pm

JVL wrote:
Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:Anyone remember Danny Green in the 2013 finals? I though he was the MVP front runner through game 5. He was killing the Heat and capped it going 6/10 from 3 in game 5. Spurs don't come as close as they did without him and I can't remember anyone ever talking about that. Since then I've always thought he'd be a great piece next to LeBron.

As an aside, that's one of several data points that Curry didn't invent the three point revolution. See also the 2009 Magic and the Rockets shirts to 3s and layups before 2015. He was the culmination of a trend.

Curry inventing the 3pt evolution was always nonsense. He tends to get credited with starting a lot of already established NBA concepts and I have no idea why.


Inventing might be a strong word, but you can't deny Curry is the poster child of the 3pt shot evolution:

Image

That's a more agreeable term imo but still arguable. He's a high volume 3pt shooter in the era where the 3pt shot rapidly gained prominence. Nothing would've stopped teams like spam-happy teams like Houston from coming to be. I don't credit Harden as the poster boy of the 3s and layups system because he practices it to an absurd degree.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#525 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Jul 9, 2019 8:08 pm

Houston was on the three point bandwagon before Curry took off. Curry did it better than anyone, but the revolution was coming Curry or no Curry.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#526 » by nzahir » Tue Jul 9, 2019 8:17 pm

Where does Kawhi rank all time if he wings 2 rings with the clippers and at least 1 fmvp, likely both but maybe PG takes one?
But he wins 0 mvps since he sits out like 15 games every regular season.

He is the weirdest player to rank all time. 2 fmvps, 2 rings, but he started off scoring very little. But he can have 3 fmvps with 3 different teams, can be only guy to do it unless Lebron does it as well
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#527 » by JVL » Tue Jul 9, 2019 9:46 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:Houston was on the three point bandwagon before Curry took off. Curry did it better than anyone, but the revolution was coming Curry or no Curry.


Houston means **** for kids growing up, watching basketball and picking a role model to watch. Curry was and is that for a lot of these new kids entering the league.

Before the 2010-2011 rookie class the average 3PAr across all rookies was at or below the league average. Ever since 2013-2014 it's been structurally and significantly above league average until the rest of the league finally caught up with the rookies this year at 35.x%.

It's part evolution of the game which obviously started prior to a guy like Curry, but Curry has been the number one ambassador of high volume, high efficiency 3P shooting. Curry has been in the league since 2009, in the playoffs since 2013, an all-star since 2014. The Splash Brothers have been a thing since Klay came into the league but really exploded in his sophomore year, the year prior to which we saw a leap in 3PA relative to total FGA among rookies. Rookies shot 26%-29% more 3PA relative to their total FGA than the league average that year and the 2 years following that.

Hell I don't even like Curry, but I do believe there's a potent Curry effect when it comes to the proliferation of the 3P shot in the NBA the last 5-7 years.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#528 » by Homer38 » Tue Jul 9, 2019 10:38 pm

The 3 points have increased in the NBA, especially since Mike D'Antoni is with Houston ... Even before that, the Rockets were first in 3 points attempts in 2015(32.7 attempts per game vs 27.0 for the warriors,the first year of Steve Kerr), but since D'Antoni is with Houston in 2016-2017 it's at another level

40.3 in 2017
42.3 in 2018
45.4 in 2019
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#529 » by Ainosterhaspie » Tue Jul 9, 2019 11:03 pm

I derailed this a bit with a comment that was just meant to be an aside. I agree Curry is the face of the revolution, he just isn't the innovator he's credited with being.

The main point was Danny Green was killing the Heat in the finals in 2013 from three and ever since then I've thought he'd be a good teammate next to LeBron and now it's happening.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#530 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jul 9, 2019 11:38 pm

ardee wrote:
eminence wrote:
ardee wrote:
I don't get it. When the ball bounces off the back board do you not want him to be there to get it? When the guy he's guarding throws up a weak floater do you want him to just stand there and let it go in?

He is not Joel Embiid but he's easily an average center at least. His on-off was +10 in GSW a couple years ago, when he's in a smaller, more specific role surrounded by capable teammates the guy does decent.


Sure, you want him to do those things, those are positive things, every NBA player does them or else they wouldn't be in the NBA. When I hear 'productive player' I think of a player who does notably more positive than negative on the court. Which McGee does not. And 1 sub 10mpg season when he spent over 80% of his minutes with Steph Curry isn't convincing me otherwise.


Not the point. Sometimes people on this board make it sound like box score production is a negative to be held against a player.

It is still a pretty reliable way to find out if a player is good or not. Of course you need more nuance to find out just how good but it's no coincidence that literally every great player ever is a statsheet stuffer.


There are things that McGee doesent do great (too jump happy at times) but he was a pretty good piece until he got sick. You can tell his effort level went down after that and at the end of the season he just wanted stats. Offensively he’s fine, he does his role really well but it’s hard to expect a limited off ball vertical threat to have a lot of impact when the offense is really poorly designed like waltons was.

As backup center he’s good, but his stamina is limited and sometimes he gets lazy on pick and rolls and lets players get right to the rim, which leads to ez layups and more blocks. His help D is good and he’s athletic and mobile which makes him good at recovering from mistakes and when he isn’t being lazy on drop coverages he’s pretty good on defense.

He’s also good from a matchup perspective.
iggymcfrack wrote: I have Bird #19 and Kobe #20 on my all-time list and both guys will probably get passed by Jokic by the end of this season.


^^^^ posted January 8 2023 :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#531 » by MyUniBroDavis » Tue Jul 9, 2019 11:45 pm

Lebron at point guard is actually really interesting

Some people are complaining and I don’t really see why. The thing about playing tall passers at pg that doesent work out a lot is most of them can make great looking passes but often don’t have the ability to make reads, orchestrate the pick and roll, etc like point guards to (Simmons and Giannis come to mind).

Lebron is the best in the nba at NBA at these things.

Defensively they won’t be playing Lebron at point guard anyway, but offensively it creates a whole bunch of mismatch problems, and it makes he rotation a lot better

Lebron/Rondo/Caruso/Cook
KCP/Bradley/Daniels
Green/Kuzma
Davis/Dudley
Cousins/McGee

It’s interestinf because there’s so much flexibility in what they can run. The main problem is rondo tbh, but if Caruso can beat him out of the rotation they have an amazing starting lineup and an amazing second unit

Not to mention the potential death lineup of

Caruso
Green
Kuzma
Lebron
Davis

If Vogel is smart about his lineups they can be REALLY good
iggymcfrack wrote: I have Bird #19 and Kobe #20 on my all-time list and both guys will probably get passed by Jokic by the end of this season.


^^^^ posted January 8 2023 :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#532 » by nzahir » Tue Jul 9, 2019 11:53 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Lebron at point guard is actually really interesting

Some people are complaining and I don’t really see why. The thing about playing tall passers at pg that doesent work out a lot is most of them can make great looking passes but often don’t have the ability to make reads, orchestrate the pick and roll, etc like point guards to (Simmons and Giannis come to mind).

Lebron is the best in the nba at NBA at these things.

Defensively they won’t be playing Lebron at point guard anyway, but offensively it creates a whole bunch of mismatch problems, and it makes he rotation a lot better

Lebron/Rondo/Caruso/Cook
KCP/Bradley/Daniels
Green/Kuzma
Davis/Dudley
Cousins/McGee

It’s interestinf because there’s so much flexibility in what they can run. The main problem is rondo tbh, but if Caruso can beat him out of the rotation they have an amazing starting lineup and an amazing second unit

Not to mention the potential death lineup of

Caruso
Green
Kuzma
Lebron
Davis

If Vogel is smart about his lineups they can be REALLY good

If Avery is back to being like Boston Avery or plays like Grizzly Avery for the whole season, then I think he closes instead of Caruso.

But who knows, maybe Caruso is super impressive on both ends and has a MIP type of season where he can legit be a a guy like FVV for Toronto
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#533 » by MartinToVaught » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:04 am

nzahir wrote:Where does Kawhi rank all time if he wings 2 rings with the clippers and at least 1 fmvp, likely both but maybe PG takes one?

If he wins even one ring with us, I'm putting him in my GOAT discussion next to LeBron, Duncan and Kareem.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#534 » by nzahir » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:24 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
nzahir wrote:Where does Kawhi rank all time if he wings 2 rings with the clippers and at least 1 fmvp, likely both but maybe PG takes one?

If he wins even one ring with us, I'm putting him in my GOAT discussion next to LeBron, Duncan and Kareem.

Uhh MJ? Or you are saying the tier below with those other 3?

He is a hard guy to judge because he doesn't have the all time numbers and longevity, but he has been fortunate to be in great situations.

I think you need at least 1 mvp though to be in that convo. For me my all time ranking is based on How good you were doing prime, all time numbers and all time career, team and personal achievements, and some of eye test.

Kawhi is great with the prime part, eye test, 2 dpoy, 2 fmvps, 2 rings. But no mvp and he is under 8.5k points I believe in career. Still not a great playmaker.

You can't be ranked top 5 all time with 0 mvps imo. Needs 1
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#535 » by Ainosterhaspie » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:33 am

Kawhi has no business sniffing the GOAT discussion right now and one more title doesn't change that. He has one, maybe two seasons (if being extraordinarily generous) that are at GOAT level. The GOATs played like that for a decade or more.

Sitting out 1/4 of the season really undercuts this season qualifying him in that discussion. I don't think this season cracks either of James or Jordan's top five list. His only other season that's really in the ballpark is 2017. Too bad he got injured against GS because he was on the cusp there.

2014 he was a role player on a team without a standout star that season. He was not remotely close to GOAT level there.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#536 » by MyUniBroDavis » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:29 am

nzahir wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Lebron at point guard is actually really interesting

Some people are complaining and I don’t really see why. The thing about playing tall passers at pg that doesent work out a lot is most of them can make great looking passes but often don’t have the ability to make reads, orchestrate the pick and roll, etc like point guards to (Simmons and Giannis come to mind).

Lebron is the best in the nba at NBA at these things.

Defensively they won’t be playing Lebron at point guard anyway, but offensively it creates a whole bunch of mismatch problems, and it makes he rotation a lot better

Lebron/Rondo/Caruso/Cook
KCP/Bradley/Daniels
Green/Kuzma
Davis/Dudley
Cousins/McGee

It’s interestinf because there’s so much flexibility in what they can run. The main problem is rondo tbh, but if Caruso can beat him out of the rotation they have an amazing starting lineup and an amazing second unit

Not to mention the potential death lineup of

Caruso
Green
Kuzma
Lebron
Davis

If Vogel is smart about his lineups they can be REALLY good

If Avery is back to being like Boston Avery or plays like Grizzly Avery for the whole season, then I think he closes instead of Caruso.

But who knows, maybe Caruso is super impressive on both ends and has a MIP type of season where he can legit be a a guy like FVV for Toronto


the interesting thing is his defensive slide coincides with injury/chemistry issues.

If he goes 2016-2017 bradley mode its gonna be amazing for us. Grizzlies bradley was great offensively but sucked on D.

Caruso is more switchable tho and if he can retain his jumper from last year id prefer him
iggymcfrack wrote: I have Bird #19 and Kobe #20 on my all-time list and both guys will probably get passed by Jokic by the end of this season.


^^^^ posted January 8 2023 :banghead: :banghead:
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#537 » by Greyhound » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:24 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
nzahir wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:Lebron at point guard is actually really interesting

Some people are complaining and I don’t really see why. The thing about playing tall passers at pg that doesent work out a lot is most of them can make great looking passes but often don’t have the ability to make reads, orchestrate the pick and roll, etc like point guards to (Simmons and Giannis come to mind).

Lebron is the best in the nba at NBA at these things.

Defensively they won’t be playing Lebron at point guard anyway, but offensively it creates a whole bunch of mismatch problems, and it makes he rotation a lot better

Lebron/Rondo/Caruso/Cook
KCP/Bradley/Daniels
Green/Kuzma
Davis/Dudley
Cousins/McGee

It’s interestinf because there’s so much flexibility in what they can run. The main problem is rondo tbh, but if Caruso can beat him out of the rotation they have an amazing starting lineup and an amazing second unit

Not to mention the potential death lineup of

Caruso
Green
Kuzma
Lebron
Davis

If Vogel is smart about his lineups they can be REALLY good

If Avery is back to being like Boston Avery or plays like Grizzly Avery for the whole season, then I think he closes instead of Caruso.

But who knows, maybe Caruso is super impressive on both ends and has a MIP type of season where he can legit be a a guy like FVV for Toronto


the interesting thing is his defensive slide coincides with injury/chemistry issues.

If he goes 2016-2017 bradley mode its gonna be amazing for us. Grizzlies bradley was great offensively but sucked on D.

Caruso is more switchable tho and if he can retain his jumper from last year id prefer him


Bradley is still a good perimeter defender.

I don’t think this Lakers team will be a switch team. I think they will play big for large portions of ballgames and funnel players into their shot blockers. Bradley at his best is a capable defender on bigger wing players due to his length. He is best suited to defend PG’s at this stage of his career, but he can defend 1-3.

Bradley’s pressure defensive style will excel with strong shot blocking/ rim protection behind him. I would choose him to start. The choice will come down to he or KCP imo.

How I see it playing out:

Bradley
Green
James (PG on offense)
Davis
Cousins
Don't believe the hype...
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#538 » by TheGOATRises007 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:46 am

MartinToVaught wrote:
nzahir wrote:Where does Kawhi rank all time if he wings 2 rings with the clippers and at least 1 fmvp, likely both but maybe PG takes one?

If he wins even one ring with us, I'm putting him in my GOAT discussion next to LeBron, Duncan and Kareem.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

This Kawhi hype is getting egregious at this point.

He hasn't done near enough to warrant GOAT discussion even with a title next season and being put ahead of MJ, Russell, Wilt, etc.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#539 » by zimpy27 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:51 am

JVL wrote:
Baski wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:Anyone remember Danny Green in the 2013 finals? I though he was the MVP front runner through game 5. He was killing the Heat and capped it going 6/10 from 3 in game 5. Spurs don't come as close as they did without him and I can't remember anyone ever talking about that. Since then I've always thought he'd be a great piece next to LeBron.

As an aside, that's one of several data points that Curry didn't invent the three point revolution. See also the 2009 Magic and the Rockets shirts to 3s and layups before 2015. He was the culmination of a trend.

Curry inventing the 3pt evolution was always nonsense. He tends to get credited with starting a lot of already established NBA concepts and I have no idea why.


Inventing might be a strong word, but you can't deny Curry is the poster child of the 3pt shot evolution:

Image



An interesting thing about that graph is it looks like there was a 3-point linear trend that plateaued from 2008 to 2012 and then lifted to pace to maintain the initial trend. The plateau period coincides with D'antoni being in NYK.

I credit D'Antoni, Orlando 2010 and Spurs spacing with the inspiration of the 3pt revolution. Curry definitely took advantage but I feel he was lifted because of the revolution and not the other way around. But yes, he's the poster boy.
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Re: The Lebron Thread - Offseason & 2019-20 

Post#540 » by Dupp » Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:55 am

Yeah kawhi has had like 2-3 top level seasons. Lebrons had at least 10.

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