Peaks project update: #1

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Peaks project update: #1 

Post#1 » by Gibson22 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:14 pm

Here It Is RealGmers, it's about damn time. For those of you that don't know, we are updating the 2015 peaks project. Many voters registered themselves in my previous thread, but if you want to join you can jump in now.
I hope we can keep going until #50 but if the partecipation drops too much we'll have to end it at 40 or so.

Reasoning/statistical support is required for votes to be counted. A simple list of names will not be counted.
Window time for votings: 48 hours/thread.

THE VOTING SYSTEM:

Everyone gives their 1st-ballot choice, 2nd-ballot choice, and 3rd-ballot choice. I'll award 4,5 pts for a 1st ballot, 3 for a 2nd ballot, and 2 for a 3rd. Highest point-total wins the spot (24-hour run-off will then only be done in the unlikely event of a tie).

Players don't get credit for all the votes they receive in a round, we just count the votes (and the points) for the designated year. At the end of the 48 hours the season that has most points wins. Other voted seasons of the winning player will get a mention.

So, you can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player, with a mention of the other seasons of the winning player who received votes.



Spoiler:
[quote="freethedevil"]
[quote="eminence"]
[quote="Colbinii"]
[quote="70sFan"]
[quote="trex_8063"]
[quote="E-Balla"]
[quote="penbeast0"]
[quote="Ambrose"]
[quote="Lou Fan"]
[quote="Amares"]
[quote="Clyde Frazier"]
[quote="yoyoboy"]
[quote="DrSpaceman"]
[quote="Ballerhogger"]
[quote="dontcalltimeout"]
[quote="DatAsh"]
[quote="PCProductions"]
[quote="LA Bird"]
[quote="Gregoire"]
[quote="_Game7_]
[quote="Point-Forward"]
[quote="Jaivl"]
[quote="drza"]
[quote="pandrade83"]
[quote="Timmyyy"]
[quote="HHera187"]
[quote="Bel"]
[quote="Dr Positivity"]
[quote="Vladimir777"]
[quote="Samurai"]
[quote="Odinn21"]
[quote="Mavericksfan"]
[quote="ardee"]


COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNN
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:22 pm

I will lead off with the 3 candidates from the last project:

Jordan 90
Shaq 00
LeBron 13

I will throw in

Russell 65
Curry 15

As seasons that may have been underrated last time and deserve to be looked at. How much you count regular season, how much postseason is an issue but it should be about how much that player contributed to success, not just piling up statistics.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#3 » by ardee » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:32 pm

Can you add me to the voting?

For me no. 1 is Wilt '67. I am very interested to see which LeBron year comes out on top because I think '17 LeBron has a very very good case against Wilt too.

I'll post up something big soon.

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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#4 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:36 pm

Off we go lads!!

As a non-native English speaker, I'm not that good on writing essays about my opinion. But I can engage in the conversation quite nicely. Sometimes, I need a direction to talk about, that's why. Anyways.

1st ballot vote: 1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal
2nd ballot vote: 1990-91 Michael Jordan
3rd ballot vote: 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain

Case for O'Neal being the 1st;
Shaq had flaws in his games. Especially with ft shooting. He had to sit and wait for Kobe to deliver and one can say you can not have it in the best player ever, and I can't argue against it much. But Shaq had the perfect season. Literally the perfect season.
In regular season, he led his team to 67 wins. His team was 1-2 without him. (For comparison, Heat were 5-1 without LeBron in 2012-13). And it wasn't like the Lakers were loaded. Shaq made them win 67 games at will. The Lakers could've gotten 60-62 wins and that would still make a case for his season to be the best.
Not only won the scoring title, was also 2nd in rebounds and 3rd in blocks. Talk about a player being top 3 in 3 of 5 most basic statistical categories.
And what stands out the most, he was a reliable defensive force. I mean Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan level defensive force in this particular season.
The Lakers were top 5 in offense (5th in ortg) and defense (1st in 1 drtg) thanks to him. Made his team led the league in SRS.
Aside from that game where he got fouled out, he was nearly perfect in the postseason.

We can talk about Jordan's '91 playoffs performance vs. O'Neal's '00 playoffs performance. Or finals vs. finals. But when I think as regular season + postseason, Shaq's the best ever for me.

I don't think MJ needs much explanation for being in there.

As for Wilt, 1966-67 is his perfect season. This is the season he kept his usual self but combined with Russell-esque state of mind.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#5 » by HHera187 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:03 pm

1989 Michael Jordan
2009 LeBron James
2000 Shaquille O'Neal

'89 Jordan: His best season as a creator with huge 13.0 Box Creation value, 8 assist and strong defense (as the 88 Dpoy). His scoring was unbelievable as usual, best rTS% of his career (+7.7). 12.8 BPM in postseason with 35 points on 60.2 TS. Goat season by far for me.

'09 James: He was a DPOY de facto, 13.7 box creation and 30.6 points per 75 on +4.7 rTS%, unbelievable. 7.3 assists on 2.7 TOV in postseason (lol) with 35.3 points on 62 TS%, I don't see any case to put him behind Shaq.

00 Shaq: what can I say? He was the best center of all time. Mvp, finals Mvp, scoring champ. 55.6 fg% in the playoffs with 30.7 PPG, arguable the most dominant playoff run in history.

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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#6 » by Ballerhogger » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:05 pm

My top 3
Kareem 1971 1972 My all time peak year MVP 34.16.6 REB 25.4 PER best overall year i seen player have
Shaq 1990-2000 The diesel great overall year real close Kareem
Kobe 2005-2006 greatest scoring season , lead one the worst teams to playoffs. Literally carry that laker team to the playoffs playing 41m a game
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#7 » by Colbinii » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:57 pm

My top 3
2003 Tim Duncan
2013 LeBron James
2000 Shaquille O'Neal

Spoiler:
The Case for The Big Fundamental



2003 Tim Duncan was one of the greatest NBA seasons of all-time. The combination of elite offense with GOAT-level defense makes this season worthy of consideration for one of the highest impact [and best] seasons not only in the modern-era but of all-time. Although Timmy is routinely regarded as a top 10 player of all-time, many contributors on this board don’t see his peak in the same light as most other “top 10 contenders”. I hope with a deep-dive into this spectacular season others can see just how great Tim Duncan was in 2003.



This season starts as a follow-up to what many believe as Tim Duncan’s “real peak”, circa 2002. Duncan came off a productive regular season in 2002 and a great playoff run which resulted in an unfortunate [for non-Laker fans] end in only the Western Conference Semi-Finals where Duncan showed why he was worthy of the MVP trophy by outplaying the dynamic duo of Shaq and Kobe. While Duncan and the Spurs lost in 5 games to the eventual NBA-Champions, the ever-silent Tim Duncan put on a showcase while missing his career-long running mate David Robinson to injuries while his second option Tony Parker experienced major growing pains as a 19-year old Rookie. Duncan showcased an ability in 2002 to carry an offensive load many doubted while still being the best defender in the league.



2003 Featured a new strategy for Popovich, Duncan and the rest of the San Antonio Spurs. After David Robinson’s body ended 2002 on the pavement the Spurs decided to rest Robinson during the season [78 GP in 2002, 64 in 2003] while actively grooming Tony Parker and featuring him more offensively as he buds into an NBA-level Point Guard. Knowing the aforementioned changes, the Spurs decided to “run it back” with a similar roster while bolstering the bench with the addition of Steve Kerr to add much needed spacing and a veteran presence; an aspect Antonio Daniels failed to deliver on in 2002. Ultimately this deal doesn’t show up in the box-score as Kerr was a DNP for a majority of the playoffs [averaging a mere 4.6 MPG in 10 games] while young players like Tony Parker (20), Manu Ginobili (25) and Stephen Jackson (24) took on larger roles on both ends of the court.



Enough story time, let’s look at the numbers.



Regular Season Stats:

Per Game: 23.3 Points, 12.9 TRB, 3.2 ORB, 3.9 AST, 0.7 STL, 2.9 BLK, 3.1 TOV

Per 100: 31.6 Points, 17.5 TRB, 4.3 ORB, 5.3 AST, 1.4 STL, 4.0 BLK, 4.2 TOV

Individual Ortg/Drtg: 112/94; +18

Advanced: 26.9 PER, 56.4 TS% [+4.5 Rel League Avg], 45.5% FTR, 19.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 28.0 USG%, 16.5 WS [.248 WS/48], 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP

On/Off (Offense then Defense): 107.9/97.5 +9.7; 98.1/103.2 -5.1; Net: +9.1 On Court, +14.8 On/Off



Post Season Stats:

Per Game: 24.7 Points, 15.4 TRB, 4.0 ORB, 5.3 AST, 0.6 STL, 3.3 BLK, 3.2 TOV

Per 100: 30.6 Points, 19.1 TRB, 5.0 ORB, 6.6 AST, 0.8 STL, 4.1 BLK, 3.9 TOV

Individual Ortg/Drtg: 116/92; +24

Advanced: 28.4 PER, 57.7 TS% [5.8 Rel League Avg], 56.3% FTR, 25.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 26.4 USG%, 5.9 WS [.279 WS/48], 11.6 BPM, 3.5 VORP

On/Off (Sample too Small): 105.3/90.0 +15.3; 96.2/104.0 -7.8; Net: +9.1 On Court, +23.1 On/Off



Statistical Comparison (Put in Spoiler Jacob)

RS Per Game: 23.3 Points, 12.9 TRB, 3.2 ORB, 3.9 AST, 0.7 STL, 2.9 BLK, 3.1 TOV

PS Per Game: 24.7 Points, 15.4 TRB, 4.0 ORB, 5.3 AST, 0.6 STL, 3.3 BLK, 3.2 TOV

RS Per 100: 31.6 Points, 17.5 TRB, 4.3 ORB, 5.3 AST, 1.4 STL, 4.0 BLK, 4.2 TOV

PS Per 100: 30.6 Points, 19.1 TRB, 5.0 ORB, 6.6 AST, 0.8 STL, 4.1 BLK, 3.9 TOV

RS Individual Ortg/Drtg: 112/94; +18

PS Individual Ortg/Drtg: 116/92; +24

RS Advanced: 26.9 PER, 56.4 TS% [+4.5 Rel League Avg], 45.5% FTR, 19.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 28.0 USG%, 16.5 WS [.248 WS/48], 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP

PS Advanced: 28.4 PER, 57.7 TS% [+5.8 Rel League Avg], 56.3% FTR, 25.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 26.4 USG%, 5.9 WS [.279 WS/48], 11.6 BPM, 3.5 VORP

RS On/Off (Offense then Defense): 107.9/97.5 +9.7; 98.1/103.2 -5.1; Net: +9.1 On Court, +14.8 On/Off

PS On/Off (Sample too Small): 105.3/90.0 +15.3; 96.2/104.0 -7.8; Net: +9.1 On Court, +23.1 On/Off



When doing a side-by-side comparison it is quite evident [and clear] that Duncan performed even greater in the post-season than he did during his MVP-level Regular Season. This alone should be a tell-tale sign that Duncan performed at his highest level against the highest level of competition. Duncan’s ability to be an elite playmaker from the post in combination with his elite rim protection has never been duplicated since the merger. Only 4 other times has a player averaged 5+ Assists and 3+ Blocks in a series: 1977 Walton and 2002 Tim Duncan and then two other times in 3 game series from Chris Webber and Bob Lanier. Duncan’s gigantic scoring advantage over Walton [24.7 PPG on +5.8 TS% vs 18.2 PPG on +1.6 TS%] makes Duncan’s run one of the most statistically unique Playoff Runs in NBA History.



Looking back at the 2003 season as a whole the league was in a slow, grindy and defensive era. With League Average Offensive Rating at 103.6, True Shooting Percentage at 51.9% and Pace at 91 Possessions/Game the game was at it’s apex for defense [Post-Merger] while yet to adapt to the space provided by the 3-point line. This resulted in the post being cluttered offensively and big men to have a great impact on the defensive end.



The Spurs figured out how to capitalize on the Slow and defensive minded era; Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was utilized in a way to generate 3 point shots and specifically the corner 3. The Spurs led the league in Percentage of Corner 3’s taken with 40% of their 3 point shots being corner 3’s. This was in large part due to the driving ability of a young Tony Parker [still 20 years old] and the gravity which Duncan encompassed offensively. The second most important part of the Spurs offense was the ability to generate lay-ups; again generated by the ability of Duncan’s passing from the high-post, low-block and free-throw area.



The Spurs offense in the post-season, with the catalyst Tim Duncan, was able to play the type of game [Spurs Ball] in all of the series they played in. The Pace in their 4 series were 90.8, 90.4, 92.6 and 87.8 [FWIW the Spurs Pace for the season was exactly 90.0, the average of the 4 series being 90.4]. This was in large part because of Tim Duncan’s ability to control the game as a PF/C; a rarity in the history of the NBA.

When the Spurs were unable to play at the exact pace they wanted they were able to adapt and outplay their opponents at what they did best; specifically the Nets and Mavericks. As you may know, the 2003 Mavericks and 2003 Nets were each the best in the league at one aspect of the game. The Mavericks were the best offense in the NBA while the Nets were the best Defense in the NBA. Ultimately both teams were dismantled by the Spurs by their own game.



Mavericks: 110.7 Ortg played at their pace [92.5 RS, 92.4 PS] and outscored by 30 points over the 6 game series. The Mavericks were held to a 104.0 Offense [-6.7] while the Spurs nearly matched Dallas’ season Offensive Rating in 109.4.

Nets: 98.1 Drtg played at the Spurs pace [91.6 RS, 87.8 PS] which took away the ability to run with Jason Kidd, one of the most dynamic playmakers in the open-court in NBA History. The Nets were unable to stop the Spurs as the Spurs eclipsed the 98.1 Drtg the Nets had in the regular season [Spurs put up 100.0 Ortg] but the slower pace affected the Nets greatly, posting a mere 93.3 Ortg in the lopsided; 6 game series.



When the Spurs had the opportunity to close out series they did so on Duncan’s back [in his backpack, which had a smaller back-pack in it, then a third back-pack inside of that with 37-year old David Robinson and Tony Parker squished in there like a Matryoshka Russian Doll].

During the span of 5 potential “Elimination Games”, the Spurs and Tim Duncan went 4-1, with the only loss coming to Dallas.

Duncan Stats: 22.8/16.4/6.8 with 3.6 BLK, 2.8 TOV



Duncan’s ability to close out elimination games with his scoring, rebounding, shot-blocking and playmaking [While taking care of the ball] is a combination of skill and talent that no other all-time great has combined throughout a single post-season. The fact the Spurs had no “easy series” says a lot about the run Duncan put on. An average SRS of 4.15, the lowest being 1.56 and highest being 7.90 shows how Dominant Duncan was. The ability for Duncan and the Spurs to adapt and play the best offense in the league in one series and then the best defensive team in the next series shows a chameleon-like team minus the skittish-ness.



NBA Finals Deep-Dive:

While the Spurs and Nets faced off in the 2003 Finals the biggest match-ups were Parker/Kidd and Collins/Duncan. The Nets were going to win if Collins could help keep Duncan in check [Collins is an all-time great post-defender] or if Kidd could run up-and-down the floor. While I highlighted earlier in my post about the Spurs [and Duncan’s] ability to slow down the Nets by eliminating transition opportunities, one often major aspect to the series was Collins inability to stay out of foul trouble while guarding Tim Duncan [and Kenyon Martin].



Kenyon Martin fell into Foul Trouble in Games 1, 2, 4, 5 while Collins fouled out in Game 3 and was routinely in foul trouble throughout the series. This was, in large part, due to Duncan’s post-presence [averaging 9 FTA/G and a 49.5% FTR].



FWIW, Jason Collins was absolutely dominant in the post-season as a defender. In his 529 minutes on the court the Nets posted a 92.2 Defensive Rating [Absurd] but in his 446 minutes on the bench the Nets were a measly 106.1 [A difference of 13.1 Points per 100]. I understand it is a small sample size, but the fact remains that Jason Collins was a key part for a Nets victory in 2003 and Duncan single handedly took him out of the game [as well as Kenyon Martin].



Individual Offensive/Defensive Ratings: I know many people love these, I have been more interested in these statistics lately [in part because of E-Balla calling me out on not understanding them fully] and re-analyzing them with-in the statistical landscape and scope. They often line-up with my personal eye-test [though I do wear glasses] and they happen to capture a good part of the game.

Duncans in the 2003 NBA Finals: 109 Ortg/83 Drtg [Net + 26]

Jordan 1991: 125/102 [Net +23]

James 2012: 117/109 [Net +8]

Shaq 01: 115/101 [Net +14]



Scoring: Duncan was able to score 27.5% of his teams points in the post-season.

Jordan 1991: 30.8%

LeBron 2012: 28.0%

Shaq 01: 32.8%


While Duncan’s scoring isn’t as impressive as some of the other notable candidates for “GOAT PEAK”, his scoring is not far off. Considering the major defensive advantage Duncan has on the other candidates listed above I see little to no reason for these players to be considered over Duncan in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#8 » by Gibson22 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:58 pm

Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#9 » by Gibson22 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:00 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 being better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#10 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:03 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#11 » by Jaivl » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:09 pm

(Not a vote yet)

Think I'm gonna go with MJ/LeBron/big man (Shaq, TD, KG, Wilt, Kareem, etc), but no freaking idea of what year to use with James. Please, intelligent people, say intelligent stuff to help me.
This place is a cesspool of mindless ineptitude, mental decrepitude, and intellectual lassitude. I refuse to be sucked any deeper into this whirlpool of groupthink sewage. My opinions have been expressed. I'm going to go take a shower.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#12 » by Gibson22 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:11 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?


Miss me with that. I'm not down to run this if I gotta see kobe at #3 all time (over Jordan and lbj) and that type of stuff. Its important to clear this up before we go. No biased/hippie/alternative/dumb/nostalgic takes here. Your vote fits those categories easily. This applies to not having lebron in a top 3 peak seasons too but Ima let that go. Sorry to hurt your feelings but.
Btw I have set expectations because the vast majority of things about basketball are known and accepted. If you think that kobe 05-06 is better than every version of Jordan and lebron, you are wrong. If you think that KG Played the goat season (I purposedly chose a forum darling with a great peak) you are wrong, and not only that, I think you are at fault for not Being super-partes, be it because you are Biased or because you like hippie takes
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:15 pm

Colbinii wrote:My top 3
2003 Tim Duncan
2013 LeBron James
2000 Shaquille O'Neal

Spoiler:
The Case for The Big Fundamental



2003 Tim Duncan was one of the greatest NBA seasons of all-time. The combination of elite offense with GOAT-level defense makes this season worthy of consideration for one of the highest impact [and best] seasons not only in the modern-era but of all-time. Although Timmy is routinely regarded as a top 10 player of all-time, many contributors on this board don’t see his peak in the same light as most other “top 10 contenders”. I hope with a deep-dive into this spectacular season others can see just how great Tim Duncan was in 2003.



This season starts as a follow-up to what many believe as Tim Duncan’s “real peak”, circa 2002. Duncan came off a productive regular season in 2002 and a great playoff run which resulted in an unfortunate [for non-Laker fans] end in only the Western Conference Semi-Finals where Duncan showed why he was worthy of the MVP trophy by outplaying the dynamic duo of Shaq and Kobe. While Duncan and the Spurs lost in 5 games to the eventual NBA-Champions, the ever-silent Tim Duncan put on a showcase while missing his career-long running mate David Robinson to injuries while his second option Tony Parker experienced major growing pains as a 19-year old Rookie. Duncan showcased an ability in 2002 to carry an offensive load many doubted while still being the best defender in the league.



2003 Featured a new strategy for Popovich, Duncan and the rest of the San Antonio Spurs. After David Robinson’s body ended 2002 on the pavement the Spurs decided to rest Robinson during the season [78 GP in 2002, 64 in 2003] while actively grooming Tony Parker and featuring him more offensively as he buds into an NBA-level Point Guard. Knowing the aforementioned changes, the Spurs decided to “run it back” with a similar roster while bolstering the bench with the addition of Steve Kerr to add much needed spacing and a veteran presence; an aspect Antonio Daniels failed to deliver on in 2002. Ultimately this deal doesn’t show up in the box-score as Kerr was a DNP for a majority of the playoffs [averaging a mere 4.6 MPG in 10 games] while young players like Tony Parker (20), Manu Ginobili (25) and Stephen Jackson (24) took on larger roles on both ends of the court.



Enough story time, let’s look at the numbers.



Regular Season Stats:

Per Game: 23.3 Points, 12.9 TRB, 3.2 ORB, 3.9 AST, 0.7 STL, 2.9 BLK, 3.1 TOV

Per 100: 31.6 Points, 17.5 TRB, 4.3 ORB, 5.3 AST, 1.4 STL, 4.0 BLK, 4.2 TOV

Individual Ortg/Drtg: 112/94; +18

Advanced: 26.9 PER, 56.4 TS% [+4.5 Rel League Avg], 45.5% FTR, 19.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 28.0 USG%, 16.5 WS [.248 WS/48], 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP

On/Off (Offense then Defense): 107.9/97.5 +9.7; 98.1/103.2 -5.1; Net: +9.1 On Court, +14.8 On/Off



Post Season Stats:

Per Game: 24.7 Points, 15.4 TRB, 4.0 ORB, 5.3 AST, 0.6 STL, 3.3 BLK, 3.2 TOV

Per 100: 30.6 Points, 19.1 TRB, 5.0 ORB, 6.6 AST, 0.8 STL, 4.1 BLK, 3.9 TOV

Individual Ortg/Drtg: 116/92; +24

Advanced: 28.4 PER, 57.7 TS% [5.8 Rel League Avg], 56.3% FTR, 25.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 26.4 USG%, 5.9 WS [.279 WS/48], 11.6 BPM, 3.5 VORP

On/Off (Sample too Small): 105.3/90.0 +15.3; 96.2/104.0 -7.8; Net: +9.1 On Court, +23.1 On/Off



Statistical Comparison (Put in Spoiler Jacob)

RS Per Game: 23.3 Points, 12.9 TRB, 3.2 ORB, 3.9 AST, 0.7 STL, 2.9 BLK, 3.1 TOV

PS Per Game: 24.7 Points, 15.4 TRB, 4.0 ORB, 5.3 AST, 0.6 STL, 3.3 BLK, 3.2 TOV

RS Per 100: 31.6 Points, 17.5 TRB, 4.3 ORB, 5.3 AST, 1.4 STL, 4.0 BLK, 4.2 TOV

PS Per 100: 30.6 Points, 19.1 TRB, 5.0 ORB, 6.6 AST, 0.8 STL, 4.1 BLK, 3.9 TOV

RS Individual Ortg/Drtg: 112/94; +18

PS Individual Ortg/Drtg: 116/92; +24

RS Advanced: 26.9 PER, 56.4 TS% [+4.5 Rel League Avg], 45.5% FTR, 19.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 28.0 USG%, 16.5 WS [.248 WS/48], 7.4 BPM, 7.6 VORP

PS Advanced: 28.4 PER, 57.7 TS% [+5.8 Rel League Avg], 56.3% FTR, 25.5 AST%, 12.9 TOV%, 26.4 USG%, 5.9 WS [.279 WS/48], 11.6 BPM, 3.5 VORP

RS On/Off (Offense then Defense): 107.9/97.5 +9.7; 98.1/103.2 -5.1; Net: +9.1 On Court, +14.8 On/Off

PS On/Off (Sample too Small): 105.3/90.0 +15.3; 96.2/104.0 -7.8; Net: +9.1 On Court, +23.1 On/Off



When doing a side-by-side comparison it is quite evident [and clear] that Duncan performed even greater in the post-season than he did during his MVP-level Regular Season. This alone should be a tell-tale sign that Duncan performed at his highest level against the highest level of competition. Duncan’s ability to be an elite playmaker from the post in combination with his elite rim protection has never been duplicated since the merger. Only 4 other times has a player averaged 5+ Assists and 3+ Blocks in a series: 1977 Walton and 2002 Tim Duncan and then two other times in 3 game series from Chris Webber and Bob Lanier. Duncan’s gigantic scoring advantage over Walton [24.7 PPG on +5.8 TS% vs 18.2 PPG on +1.6 TS%] makes Duncan’s run one of the most statistically unique Playoff Runs in NBA History.



Looking back at the 2003 season as a whole the league was in a slow, grindy and defensive era. With League Average Offensive Rating at 103.6, True Shooting Percentage at 51.9% and Pace at 91 Possessions/Game the game was at it’s apex for defense [Post-Merger] while yet to adapt to the space provided by the 3-point line. This resulted in the post being cluttered offensively and big men to have a great impact on the defensive end.



The Spurs figured out how to capitalize on the Slow and defensive minded era; Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was utilized in a way to generate 3 point shots and specifically the corner 3. The Spurs led the league in Percentage of Corner 3’s taken with 40% of their 3 point shots being corner 3’s. This was in large part due to the driving ability of a young Tony Parker [still 20 years old] and the gravity which Duncan encompassed offensively. The second most important part of the Spurs offense was the ability to generate lay-ups; again generated by the ability of Duncan’s passing from the high-post, low-block and free-throw area.



The Spurs offense in the post-season, with the catalyst Tim Duncan, was able to play the type of game [Spurs Ball] in all of the series they played in. The Pace in their 4 series were 90.8, 90.4, 92.6 and 87.8 [FWIW the Spurs Pace for the season was exactly 90.0, the average of the 4 series being 90.4]. This was in large part because of Tim Duncan’s ability to control the game as a PF/C; a rarity in the history of the NBA.

When the Spurs were unable to play at the exact pace they wanted they were able to adapt and outplay their opponents at what they did best; specifically the Nets and Mavericks. As you may know, the 2003 Mavericks and 2003 Nets were each the best in the league at one aspect of the game. The Mavericks were the best offense in the NBA while the Nets were the best Defense in the NBA. Ultimately both teams were dismantled by the Spurs by their own game.



Mavericks: 110.7 Ortg played at their pace [92.5 RS, 92.4 PS] and outscored by 30 points over the 6 game series. The Mavericks were held to a 104.0 Offense [-6.7] while the Spurs nearly matched Dallas’ season Offensive Rating in 109.4.

Nets: 98.1 Drtg played at the Spurs pace [91.6 RS, 87.8 PS] which took away the ability to run with Jason Kidd, one of the most dynamic playmakers in the open-court in NBA History. The Nets were unable to stop the Spurs as the Spurs eclipsed the 98.1 Drtg the Nets had in the regular season [Spurs put up 100.0 Ortg] but the slower pace affected the Nets greatly, posting a mere 93.3 Ortg in the lopsided; 6 game series.



When the Spurs had the opportunity to close out series they did so on Duncan’s back [in his backpack, which had a smaller back-pack in it, then a third back-pack inside of that with 37-year old David Robinson and Tony Parker squished in there like a Matryoshka Russian Doll].

During the span of 5 potential “Elimination Games”, the Spurs and Tim Duncan went 4-1, with the only loss coming to Dallas.

Duncan Stats: 22.8/16.4/6.8 with 3.6 BLK, 2.8 TOV



Duncan’s ability to close out elimination games with his scoring, rebounding, shot-blocking and playmaking [While taking care of the ball] is a combination of skill and talent that no other all-time great has combined throughout a single post-season. The fact the Spurs had no “easy series” says a lot about the run Duncan put on. An average SRS of 4.15, the lowest being 1.56 and highest being 7.90 shows how Dominant Duncan was. The ability for Duncan and the Spurs to adapt and play the best offense in the league in one series and then the best defensive team in the next series shows a chameleon-like team minus the skittish-ness.



NBA Finals Deep-Dive:

While the Spurs and Nets faced off in the 2003 Finals the biggest match-ups were Parker/Kidd and Collins/Duncan. The Nets were going to win if Collins could help keep Duncan in check [Collins is an all-time great post-defender] or if Kidd could run up-and-down the floor. While I highlighted earlier in my post about the Spurs [and Duncan’s] ability to slow down the Nets by eliminating transition opportunities, one often major aspect to the series was Collins inability to stay out of foul trouble while guarding Tim Duncan [and Kenyon Martin].



Kenyon Martin fell into Foul Trouble in Games 1, 2, 4, 5 while Collins fouled out in Game 3 and was routinely in foul trouble throughout the series. This was, in large part, due to Duncan’s post-presence [averaging 9 FTA/G and a 49.5% FTR].



FWIW, Jason Collins was absolutely dominant in the post-season as a defender. In his 529 minutes on the court the Nets posted a 92.2 Defensive Rating [Absurd] but in his 446 minutes on the bench the Nets were a measly 106.1 [A difference of 13.1 Points per 100]. I understand it is a small sample size, but the fact remains that Jason Collins was a key part for a Nets victory in 2003 and Duncan single handedly took him out of the game [as well as Kenyon Martin].



Individual Offensive/Defensive Ratings: I know many people love these, I have been more interested in these statistics lately [in part because of E-Balla calling me out on not understanding them fully] and re-analyzing them with-in the statistical landscape and scope. They often line-up with my personal eye-test [though I do wear glasses] and they happen to capture a good part of the game.

Duncans in the 2003 NBA Finals: 109 Ortg/83 Drtg [Net + 26]

Jordan 1991: 125/102 [Net +23]

James 2012: 117/109 [Net +8]

Shaq 01: 115/101 [Net +14]



Scoring: Duncan was able to score 27.5% of his teams points in the post-season.

Jordan 1991: 30.8%

LeBron 2012: 28.0%

Shaq 01: 32.8%


While Duncan’s scoring isn’t as impressive as some of the other notable candidates for “GOAT PEAK”, his scoring is not far off. Considering the major defensive advantage Duncan has on the other candidates listed above I see little to no reason for these players to be considered over Duncan in the grand scheme of things.

There're some things to I want to add about 2003 Duncan;

Spoiler:
I should clear out why I didn't include Duncan in my top 3, even though I'm a fan; I don't think his regular season performance was dominant enough to be up there.

After the 1st round, Duncan went 26.7/15.2/5.3/3.2 on .575 ts

When Duncan was on the court; the Spurs outscored their opponents by 1554-1414. (+7.8 per game)
When Duncan was off the court; the Spurs got outscored by their opponents with 178-218. (-2.2 per game)
That is directly 10 ppg differential.

There are 2 significant games in this regard;
- Game 4 against the Lakers. The Spurs lost the game by 4 points despite Duncan was +15 when he was on the court.
Last 3:27 of the 2nd quarter, the Spurs leading by 16. The gap gets cut down to 7 when TD was on the bench.
Last 2:54 of the 3rd quarter, the Spurs leading by 7. Duncan gets benched and the Lakers goes on a quick 14-3 series and the Lakers is up by 4 going into the 4th.
- Game 3 against the Mavericks. Even though it was a blowout game (Duncan had +31), the Spurs actually failed to score in 7 and a half minutes when he was off the court with 0-18 scoreboard. It shows how good his rotation players were.

Also Duncan scored 481 points and assisted 215 while he was on the court. 696 of 1554 points. Which makes it 44.8% for Duncan, getting directly involved.

One last thing. About his defense. https://on.nba.com/2BQ2YjM This is his 'opponent shooting' percentages. According to the link, 40.2% of shots went in against Duncan in 2003 playoffs. Put it to some perspective; it was 38.5% for defense specialist Big Ben who didn't worry about carrying his team on offense, in 2004 playoffs.

Duncan's performance in 2003 playoffs is the biggest carry job in history. The following link contains an image that's about efficiency number percentiles.
https://i.imgur.com/CV9LPfb.jpg
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#14 » by Jaivl » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:16 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?


Miss me with that. I'm not down to run this ish if I gotta see kobe at #3 all time (over Jordan and lbj) and that type of stuff. Its important to clear this up before we go. No biased/hippie/alternative/dumb/nostalgic takes here. Your vote fits those category easily. This applies to not having lebron in a top 3 peak seasons too but Ima let that go. Sorry to hurt your feelings but.

I don't see any semblance of malice on his post, but yeah I hope this doesn't become like the last top 100 project, where some posters explicitly boycotted certain players, who shall remain nameless. Powerful arguments such as:

At this piont, I'm just going to vote to prevent this project from becoming a joke with (??) in the top 10
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#15 » by E-Balla » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:20 pm

1. 2000 Shaq - The MDE. The clear best offensive player in the game and arguably top 5 defensively. The greatest part of this year was his consistency. He was only under 20 points 7 times that regular season, under 45% from the field 7 times, and the icing on the cake of this season was a 38/17 finals series (he averaged that while missing 9.5 FTs a game and having a game where he was 17/39 on FTs).

2. Jordan 91 - No weaknesses, no downsides. Just an absolutely perfect season.

3. Jordan 90 - One weakness, he wasn't 91 Jordan level until midseason. Once he decided to jump into the triangle he averaged 35/7/6 on 62 TS% with a 127 ORTG.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#16 » by Odinn21 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:22 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?


Miss me with that. I'm not down to run this ish if I gotta see kobe at #3 all time (over Jordan and lbj) and that type of stuff. Its important to clear this up before we go. No biased/hippie/alternative/dumb/nostalgic takes here. Your vote fits those categories easily. This applies to not having lebron in a top 3 peak seasons too but Ima let that go. Sorry to hurt your feelings but.

Instead of coming out like that, follow up with reasoning then have a discussion about it. Or call out the particular person for his homerism.

I didn't include LeBron in my top 3. I'll probably have him at my #5 or #6, you'll call me out like this when I do that? It's not a bad choice you know. Having Kobe up there is a bad choice but not having LeBron in the top 3 is not a bad choice.

Look at the competition;
1961-62 Russell
1966-67 Chamberlain
1976-77 Abdul-Jabbar (or 1970-71, 1971-72, 1973-74, 1979-80)
1982-83 Moses Malone
1985-86 Bird
1986-87 Johnson
1990-91 Jordan
1992-93 Olajuwon
1999-00 O'Neal
2002-03 Duncan
2003-04 Garnett
2011-12 James (or 2012-13)

I mean it's so tight and it's being so tight making this project so interesting and wakens such enthusiasm in ourselves. Just be calmer please. You being like this is not much different from him being a homer and voting for Kobe.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#17 » by Colbinii » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:25 pm

Ballerhogger wrote:My top 3
Kareem 1971 1972 My all time peak year MVP 34.16.6 REB 25.4 PER best overall year i seen player have
Shaq 1990-2000 The diesel great overall year real close Kareem
Kobe 2005-2006 greatest scoring season , lead one the worst teams to playoffs. Literally carry that laker team to the playoffs playing 41m a game


2006 Bryant: 35.6 Points [45.6 PP100], +2.3 TS% Rel League Average, 38.7 USG%
2019 Harden: 36.1 Points [48.2 PP100], +5.6 TS% Rel League Average, 40.5 USG%

Sorry man, but if you are including Kobe as the "greatest scoring season" then Harden trumped it this season by every metric we have.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#18 » by E-Balla » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:26 pm

Jaivl wrote:(Not a vote yet)

Think I'm gonna go with MJ/LeBron/big man (Shaq, TD, KG, Wilt, Kareem, etc), but no freaking idea of what year to use with James. Please, intelligent people, say intelligent stuff to help me.

I'm taking 09 first but remember if you put multiple LeBron years over the next bigman go ahead and vote them in. Honestly I feel like this way will lead to us getting through the GOAT season candidates quickly.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#19 » by E-Balla » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:28 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Ballerhogger wrote:My top 3
Kareem 1971 1972 My all time peak year MVP 34.16.6 REB 25.4 PER best overall year i seen player have
Shaq 1990-2000 The diesel great overall year real close Kareem
Kobe 2005-2006 greatest scoring season , lead one the worst teams to playoffs. Literally carry that laker team to the playoffs playing 41m a game


2006 Bryant: 35.6 Points [45.6 PP100], +2.3 TS% Rel League Average, 38.7 USG%
2019 Harden: 36.1 Points [48.2 PP100], +5.6 TS% Rel League Average, 40.5 USG%

Sorry man, but if you are including Kobe as the "greatest scoring season" then Harden trumped it this season by every metric we have.

If instead of PP100 you use TSA per 100, Kobe had equal volume to Harden. Just wanted to mention that, people use PP100 with rTS% and it doesn't make too much sense to me since PP100 isn't adjusting for league average efficiency.
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Re: Peaks project update: #1 

Post#20 » by Timmyyy » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:32 pm

lebron3-14-3 wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
lebron3-14-3 wrote:Imagine not having lebron in your top 3, T H R E E. Don't even get me started on kobe 05 06 i ring better than any lbj/mj season ever, or 1972 kareem goat season.
Be better guys, this isnt looking good

What's the point of doing this if you have certain set of expectations? What's this attitude?


Miss me with that. I'm not down to run this if I gotta see kobe at #3 all time (over Jordan and lbj) and that type of stuff. Its important to clear this up before we go. No biased/hippie/alternative/dumb/nostalgic takes here. Your vote fits those categories easily. This applies to not having lebron in a top 3 peak seasons too but Ima let that go. Sorry to hurt your feelings but.
Btw I have I have set expectations because the vast majority of things about basketball are known and accepted. If you think that kobe 05-06 is better than every version of Jordan and lebron, you are wrong. If you think that KG Played the goat season (I purposedly chose a forum darling with a great peak) you are wrong, and not only that, I think you are at fault for not Being super-partes, be it because you are Biased or because you like hippie takes


Ok so the guy in charge of this, with Lebron in his username, are not accepting an opinion that is having Lebron out of its top3. Hmm...Ouh my...my excitement for this project was really short.

I mean I was going to address the Kobe stuff in my first post here because I think there isn't a case, but in a 'discussion' manner.

You are basically shutting down any discussion that is out of your bubble.

I was just going to cast my first vote but I guess for now I will wait what is happening with your attitude as the poster in charge of this.

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