2018-19 POY Voting Thread

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2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#1 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:56 pm

EDIT: Discussion thread can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1770161

Hey folks, I'm going to give you until:

11:59 PM Pacific on Sunday July 7th

To place your votes.

The rules:

1. To vote I must be able to verify that you contributed well to the Discussion thread, or I have to already know of you and your prior positive participation. Normally I make a list up front, but let's try it this way.

2. Only POY is mandatory for participation, and only for POY must you do a Top 5.

3. All other awards are optional. But if you do vote, you have to give a Top 3.

4. Your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

5. You do need to provide some explanation for your choices. You don't need to justify every single choice you make, but give us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did wherever it was particularly interesting for you.

Finally to make my life easier:

6. You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post. Don't do a "hey ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again".

7. Please place your votes at the beginning of your post.

8. Please avoid serious discussion in this thread. If it's interesting enough to write a lot about, talk about it in the Discussion thread.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#2 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:49 am

POY
1. Kawhi Leonard
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. James Harden
4. Paul George
5. Stephen Curry

OPOY
1. James Harden
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Stephen Curry

DPOY
1. Draymond Green
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert

ROY
1. Luka Doncic
2. Deandre Ayton
3. Mitchell Robinson

MIP
1. Paul George
2. Pascal Siakam
3. Nikola Vucevic

6MOY
1. Montrezl Harrell
2. Ed Davis
3. Andre Iguodala

COY
1. Nick Nurse
2. Greg Popovich
3. Mike Budenholzer

EOY
1. Masai Ujiri
2. Lawrence Frank
3. Jon Horst
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#3 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:54 am

POY

1. Kawhi Leonard
2. James Harden
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo
4. Kevin Durant
5. Stephen Curry
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#4 » by Joey Wheeler » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:21 am

Player of the Year

1-Kawhi Leonard
2-James Harden
3-Giannis Antetokoumpo
4-Joel Embiid
5-Nikola Jokic

Offensive Player of the Year

1-James Harden
2-Nikola Jokic
3-Kawhi Leonard

Defensive Player of the Year

1-Joel Embiid
2-Rudy Gobert
3-Giannis Antetokoumpo

Rookie of the Year

1-Luka Doncic
2-Trae Young
3-Mitchell Robinson

Most Improved Player

1-Pascal Siakam
2-D'Angelo Russell
3-Montrezl Harrell

6th man of the year

1-Andre Igoudala
2-Montrezl Harrell
3-Serge Ibaka

Coach of the Year

1-Greg Popovich
2-Mike Budenholzer
3-Nick Nurse

Executive of the Year

1-Masai Ujiri
2-Lawrence Frank
3-Jon Horst
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#5 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:09 am

Oh one more thing:

You do need to provide some explanation for your choices.

You don't need to justify every single choice you make, but give us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did wherever it was particularly interesting for you.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#6 » by iggymcfrack » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:10 am

iggymcfrack wrote:POY
1. Kawhi Leonard
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. James Harden
4. Paul George
5. Stephen Curry

OPOY
1. James Harden
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Stephen Curry

DPOY
1. Draymond Green
2. Joel Embiid
3. Rudy Gobert

ROY
1. Luka Doncic
2. Deandre Ayton
3. Mitchell Robinson

MIP
1. Paul George
2. Pascal Siakam
3. Nikola Vucevic

6MOY
1. Montrezl Harrell
2. Ed Davis
3. Andre Iguodala

COY
1. Nick Nurse
2. Greg Popovich
3. Mike Budenholzer

EOY
1. Masai Ujiri
2. Lawrence Frank
3. Jon Horst


Reasoning:

POY- Kawhi was just the best player in the playoffs. He told everyone that the regular season was 82 practices and when it came down to it, he went head-to-head with other superstars in each of the last 3 rounds and outplayed them. He had a ridiculous offensive series against Philly and showed he still had elite defensive chops when it mattered against the Bucks. After that, you have the 2 best regular season players who both played pretty damn well in the playoffs in Giannis and Harden. George who was the 3rd best RS player was hurt in the postseason and didn’t put up quite the same numbers, but the Thunder were still massively better with him on the floor against Portland. Curry had nice advanced numbers and played extremely well at times, but he was invisible in the playoffs before Durant went down and he couldn’t quite step it up in the Nuggets game of the season Game 6 vs. Toronto either.

OPOY- No one was as good as Harden offensively over the course of the regular and postseason. Went back and forth on Curry and Kawhi for the #2 spot, but feel like I ultimately trust Kawhi to get me that big bucket more when it really matters l. He played at a higher level against Philly than Curry ever did and his lows weren’t as bad as Curry’s early rounds.

DPOY- Would have had Gobert #1 after the regular season, but once again he just failed to be effective when it really mattered in the playoffs. Not only did his team struggle, but they struggled even more when he was on the floor. Meanwhile Draymond was a dynamo who looked as elite as ever in the postseason and Embiid had ridiculous on/off numbers without really even doing that much on offense.

ROY- Can’t give Trae Young any credit when he’s so poor on defense. Ayton and Mitchell are already excellent two-way anchors that are a step before mega-elite Luka.

MIP- Don’t think people are giving enough credit for how hard it is to make a huge leap when you’re already playing at an elite level and George totally did that this season. Went from 34th in RPM to 1st in one season. That’s totally unprecedented.

6MOY- Harrell had a 23.4 PER on .636 TS% in the regular season and then unlike most of his competition got even better in the postseason putting up a 26.6 PER on .739 TS%. Also, whenever I watch him he battles hard defensively and makes life difficult for whoever’s in front of him. I feel like there’s some noise involved in him not having better advanced stats defensively.

COY- Everything Nick Nurse did worked out perfectly. He load managed Kawhi just enough to get him safely through a playoff run, and then came with just the right defensive adjustments to shut down Giannis in Round 2. If you flip him with Budenholzer (who would have been my COY after the regular season) I think the Bucks go to the Finals. Then he came up with more creative looks defensively in the Finals to take Curry out of his game as well.

EOY- Masai bamboozled the Spurs in a ridiculously one-sided trade that a lot of execs still wouldn’t have had the balls to make and justified his vision with a championship. Clippers continuously made small adjustments to their roster to take them from a treadmill team trapped in cap hell to one of the most promising young rosters in the league.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#7 » by Timmyyy » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:57 am

Not sure if I contributed enough in the discussion thread since I'm relatively new here. I still would like to give my vote and leave it up to you, if you count it or not.

POY vote:
1. Harden
2. Giannis
3. Jokic
4. Kawhi
5. Curry

Reasoning:
Harden and Giannis were as close as it gets in the RS with Giannis in front with the slimmest of margins. In the PO's I see it the other way around Harden slightly better when we take competition into account. Overall I take Harden slightly in front of Giannis.
Jokic was in the 2nd RS tier for me with PG13, Curry and KD and 3rd overall. Then he had phenomenal playoffs and cemented the 3rd place for me.
Kawhi was the only guy I take over Jokic in the PO's but the gap is not enough for me to overcome the pretty mediocre RS and to put him above Jokic.
Curry had a very impactful RS and PO's but this is the season he took a clear step back behind KD in the hierarchy and it led to pretty inconsistent PO's.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#8 » by lebron3-14-3 » Tue Jul 2, 2019 5:47 pm

POTY:
1) Kawhi Leonard. Not just with hindisght, but even throughout the season, it felt a bit like a standard lebron season (but in the finals he was way below his 2012-19 standard and he played a maybe not even 2015 level rs) where you knew that, when go time would come, we all knew kawhi was gonna be the best player in the world. I can't put him comfortably above james harden, because the difference in the regular outweighs the difference in the playoffs, since harden still played an mvp level playoff run, but there's something about being the best player in the world that goes above your average playing level throughout the 100 games between rs and Playoffs, and just cancels the games not played for load managament.
Not only Kawhi was better than any other player in the playoffs, he just was clearly the best player, even if he had played bad games or worse than he actually played, it was clear who the best player was. If I have to quantify, he played a standard superstar (not mvp) level regular season, and a playoff run that is above kobe-level, but below all time/goat level. I can't say he played miles better than harden in the playoffs, because harden was still mvp level all things considered, and leonard didn't play great finals, and his ecf were very good to great, but not historically great. But in the semifinals, a series that was an even bigger challenge than the ecf (or the finals for that matter) he played a GOAT series, tied with durant's 2017 finals, the best series I have seen by a non-lebron player in many many years

2) Harden. Just the only one player who was able to play at an mvp level both in the rs and in the playoffs. He had an all time 30-40 games stretch in the rs, an all time offensive season and ultimately came short by not many points to win the mvp, and he didn't choke in the playoffs, keeping up his mvp pace

3) Giannis. Just an mvp season pure and simple. His offense obviously is not best in the world caliber, but still about top 10, and I mean, he is a goat in transition, he put up 30 points with 64,4 TS% per 36 minutes, 121 ORTG and 99 DRTG, won 60 games, 2nd at dpoy etc. I feel like, we know that giannis is one of the most improved players every year, this is the first time that, instead of getting better as a player, he got better at taking advantage of what he does best (as in: getting to the rim, defending, grabbing rebounds, playing as a center, leading his team emotionally etc). There obviously was a predictable drop in the playoffs that puts him, in my mind, very close to curry instead of being very close to harden and leonard, but it wasn't a huge drop. It was like a drop from mvp level to weak mvp level.

4) Curry will always be (or until he hits his decline) nautical miles better than any player not named lebron or harden (who is already in my list), some could argue for kd but he was out for significant parts of the playoffs. I didn't particularly appreciate his overall season, I basically think that he played bad for a good half of the regular season and didn't really pick it up until the middle of his houston series, and I'm lower on his finals than most , he was very inconsistent troughout the games, and his last quarter, I know that it is just 1/24 quarters, but it was really, really awful. I also think that he played a terrible defensive series in the finals. The difference between him and giannis on Offense is so hugemongous (thought It was a new word but figured out many already came out with that) that I really tought about putting him ahead of giannis (that was my mindset coming here to post) but I just can't give him that much credit for his amazing play against the pretty weak blazers, which is the only series where steph really played far better than giannis did or is capable of at the moment

5) Durant. This one is really close (actually, in my book, 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6 are really really close). Again at first tought Jokic was in my mind (clearly best center of the season and an amazing offensive player, and probably the most consistent in his level of play troughout the season), but KD was so good, and honestly better than jokic can be, that I don't think that the number of games he missed is enough to put him behind jokic. I get that his missed games neutralized his team's chances at the title, but: kd basically missed "JUST" the nba finals, he played all but one game in the rockets series, and, even tho the portland series looked easier than it was thanks to curry's astonishing level of play, it still was pretty much a walk in the park series. Again obviously him missing the finals is huge, but he had an amazing season before the injury, and jokic didn't get past the second round. He would contend leonard's spot as the best player in the playoffs (even tho I think kl would have still come out on top) with a much better rs play without, as usual, going all out before it was needed.

OPOY
1) Harden
2) Curry
3) Durant

DPOY
1) Antetokounmpo
2) Gobert
3) Draymond

ROY

1) Doncic
2) Young
3) Ayton

MIP

1) Siakam
2) Fox
3) Russell


SMoTY

1) Harrell
2) Williams
3) Dinwiddie

Don't care about COTY and EOTY
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#9 » by Outside » Wed Jul 3, 2019 1:08 am

Player of the Year
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Steph Curry
4. James Harden
5. Nikola Jokic

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Rudy Gobert
2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
3. Joel Embiid

Rookie of the Year
1. Luka Doncic
2. Trae Young
3. Deandre Ayton

Most Improved Player
1. Pascal Siakam
2. D'Angelo Russell
3. John Collins

Sixth Man of the Year
1. Montrezl Harrell
2. Fred VanVleet
3. Lou Williams

Coach of the Year
1. Nick Nurse
2. Mike Malone
3. Doc Rivers

Executive of the Year
1. Masai Ujiri, Toronto
2. Jon Horst, Milwaukee
3. Lawrence Frank, Clippers


Player of the Year
Giannis was significantly ahead in the RS for me when looking at his impact on both ends of the court. Harden was second in the RS. They were clearly ahead of others.

Giannis continued playing at a high level in the playoffs. While not the best player in the PS, he wasn't far behind. Given the combination of RS and PS performance, he's first for POY.

Kawhi wasn't in my top five for the RS, but his PS impact was highest. His consistent scoring for the champs carried them through the tough rounds. PS counts for a lot with me, and his performance here was good enough for him to place second.

Curry was his normal impactful and productive self in the RS, with the major blip being missed games. He was curiously off for the first part of the PS, but he was tremendous once Durant was injured. He led them over Houston and Portland, and he kept them in the finals against Toronto. If Klay hadn't gotten hurt a second time, they probably force a game 7, and who knows what happens there. Curry was that close to giving them a real shot at an improbable title. He earned third place on my POY list.

Harden's RS was an offensive production tour de force. In the PS, he was still good, but when Durant got hurt, he had the chance he'd been waiting for since going to Houston, and he couldn't capitalize. It's a huge negative in my eyes, and it drops him to fourth.

I'm still trying to figure out Jokic, but there's no doubt that he's the hub of what Denver does, that he was very productive in the RS, and that he was just as good or better in the PS. Given his actual achievement, that he led Denver to second in the West despite a ton of injuries, and that Denver exceeded expectations by beating the Spurs and then taking Portland to game 7 after losing the four overtime game, and that his production was excellent, he earns fifth on my list.

Notes for others who didn't make my top five:

Embiid -- lack of availability hurt his case

George -- was excellent early but declined a lot after hurting his shoulder; OKC flamed out in the PS

Durant -- very good RS, excellent PS until injury, but out for most of the Warriors PS run; very good production but not as impactful as Curry

Lillard -- verry good RS, had his PS moment vs OKC, but struggled against increased pressure vs Denver and Golden State

Defensive Player
I had a tough time with this one. I could be convinced to switch things around, and I'll be looking at arguments others make. Gobert seems like that most consistent defensive presence, first for me in the RS and still very good in the PS, though only one round. Draymond Green was special for much of the PS, but he was hurt and out of shape for most of the RS, and that RS put him too far behind to place in the top three overall.

For the past couple of years, I've looked at Milwaukee and wondered why they weren't better defensively because they are so long and athletic. This year, it finally happened, and Giannis led that transformation. They have plenty of other good defensive players, but watching them play, he was the hub of their defensive activity. It's hard for me to set aside how remarkable it is that he's doing this while also expending huge energy on the offensive end, but when considering DPOY only, that shouldn't matter, so I can't artificially bump him up to first.

I have to also set some perceptions aside with Embiid. He looks too heavy and plodding to me much of the time, but he has a good defensive mind, picks his spots beautifully, and is capable of a quick burst to make defensive plays. It also doesn't hurt that the dude is HUGE; he makes other centers look small next to him. If he could slim down and get fit like Gobert, he would benefit tremendously, but that's an aside that doesn't matter when judging what he did this year. The stats I've seen show that he was a defensive force this season.

That means I'm leaving out Paul George, and I don't want to leave out Paul George. Maybe someone can convince me to change my vote on that one.

Rookie
This is fairly easy for me. Doncic faded in the second half, but his all-around game gives him a clear edge for the top spot. Trae Young came on strong, and he led Atlanta to far more wins than they had any reason to get (and only four fewer than Doncic and Dallas).

Ayton gets my third spot through very good production. I looked at others, but comparing the numbers, it's not close. Most of the candidates were on losing teams, so it's hard to gauge what's going on, but these three having a clear edge in production over the others.

Most Improved
Siakam showed a huge leap in both the RS and PS. Being on a team that made the finals, he had a big advantage in opportunity over other candidates, and he capitalized on it.

D'Angelo Russell really came into his own when Caris Lavert got hurt. He was a consistent provider of production and leadership for Brooklyn, and he was a key factor in them clearing the pack at the bottom of the conference to get the sixth seed.

I don't know if anyone watches Hawks games other than to see what Trae Young is doing, but John Collins became a solid NBA player this year and will be a key part of the core they build around.

I can see the argument for Paul George, and I likely would've put him in here if not for that shoulder injury. You could make the same kind of case for Giannis. It seems like someone on Denver should be in the mix, but it was a team-wide improvement, which means no one guy stood out in that regard.

Sixth Man
Lou Williams won the award, but he runs hot and cold and is sort of a Jamal Crawford chucker (including the no defense part). Teams had to account for Montrezl Harrell at both ends, and his consistent energy meant he'd embarass you if you slacked at all against him.

VanVleet is right there with Harrell, and I am tempted to put him first based on his PS, but that's recency bias in the extreme considering he was less than stellar in earlier rounds. Still, coming up big in the finals counts for a lot, as does his ability to be impactful on both ends.

Williams was productive, so third seems right to me.

The other guy I seriously considered was Donatas Sabonis. His production was very good. He deserves votes.

Coach
Nick Nurse gets the nod here for navigating a challenging RS with the addition of Kawhi combined with sitting Kawhi, then keeping it going with the midseason trade, which replaced more key pieces. It is no small feat to take a roster with that kind of turnover and turn it into a cohesive unit that can win a title. Yeah, I get that they had a ton of talented players, but that's still a major accomplishment.

Mike Malone worked minor miracles with his team. People don't appreciate how many injuries the Nuggets had to deal with, and Malone was still able to take the team from 26th to 10th in DRtg and from out of the playoffs to second in the West.

Doc Rivers also worked magic with his team. They had no business making the playoffs after trading all their stars away and then trading away their top scorer midseason. Those guys played hard and they played together. Credit goes to Doc.

Budenholzer won the award, and he did a great job, but the biggest thing he did was make obvious changes -- optimize the offense around Giannis' capabilities, and turn a team that should be great on defense into a top defensive team. That isn't rocket science, and it's not dealing with the challenges the other guys faced with their teams.

Executive
This is Ujiri's by a mile. He took multiple huge risks -- elevating Nick Nurse over COY Dwayne Casey, trading DeRozan away for a one-year rental of Kawhi in questionable health, and trading Valanciunas and bench depth for Marc Gasol -- and they paid off in a title.

Horst hired Budenholzer and made key roster moves to enhance the Giannis-centric team. Frank made a bunch of moves with the Clippers that resulted in a cohesive unit that had an improbably successful season.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#10 » by lebron3-14-3 » Thu Jul 4, 2019 12:59 am

Nobody voting :(
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#11 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Thu Jul 4, 2019 1:27 am

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:POY

1. Kawhi Leonard
2. James Harden
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo
4. Kevin Durant
5. Stephen Curry


Reasoning from the discussion thread

1. Kawhi - I weigh playoffs heavily and I think he was the best player in the playoffs. It's been forgotten a bit, but he was incredible vs the Sixers. He tailed it off a bit towards the end of the playoffs, but he was still the best player for me. His offensive game is incredible now(bar his playmaking). His defense is overrated in general now, but he played good defense at times in the playoffs.

2. Harden - I was more impressed with Harden's series vs GS than Giannis' vs the Raptors. He had an incredible season. His defense isn't as bad as it used to be either and his post defense is underrated. Arguably best offensive player in the league.

3. Giannis - Arguably best player in the RS. I just think games 3-6, he really struggled offensively vs the Raptors. Lack of a jump-shot and poor reads from the Raptors' wall led to the Bucks' demise. His defense is incredible though and he has his own 'gravity' on offense arguably comparable with Curry.

4. Durant - I know he basically missed 2 rounds, but I can't ignore how great he was during the Clippers' series and even the Rockets' series. I think he was generally more consistent than Curry throughout the season too. If Curry didn't struggle the way he did vs the Rockets, I'd have him 4th(because I think he was actually pretty good in the finals), but I can't ignore how badly he looked during that series. Could have been top 3 if he played during the WCF and Finals.

5. Curry/Jokic - I have a hard time picking between the two. Jokic was probably more consistent overall, but sometimes his low volume hurts the Nuggets for me considering how much more efficient he is compared to the Nuggets' guards. I think Curry's season was pretty good, with some real lows during the Rockets' series. Though I think he did enough vs the Raptors to get him a top 5 spot(and he did torch the Blazers even if their D isn't that great).
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#12 » by clyde21 » Thu Jul 4, 2019 6:19 am

Player of the Year
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo
2. Kawhi Leonard
3. Nikola Jokic
4. James Harden
5. Stephen Curry

Giannis over Kawhi for me because he was just more dominant from the very start of the season, and Kawhi missed too many RS games for it not to have an impact on the vote IMO.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Nikola Jokic
2. James Harden
3. Stephen Curry

Jokic was just absurd this year by almost all metrics, and his play actually got even better in the postseason. Offensively he's a savant...might be the best passing C we've ever seen...

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Rudy Gobert
2. Joel Embiid
3. Paul George

this one was a tough one, I'd say wings always have the toughest defensive assignments in this era of switch defense but Gobert/Embiid were just too good and their defensive presence carried their teams on that side.

Rookie of the Year
1. Luka Doncic
2. Trae Young
3. Marvin Bagley

Luka and Trae are pretty obvious choices, went with Bagley #3 averaging 14/8. Robinson was really close considering his advanced metrics were absurd, but he was kind of only asked to focus on defense at this point.

Most Improved Player
1. Pascal Siakam
2. Domantas Sabonis
3. Montrezl Harrell

really good year for MIPs, D-Lo also deserves a strong mention too but I truly enjoyed the development of these guys over the last season to where they are now.

6th man of the year
1. Lou Williams
2. Fred VanVleet
3. Andre Iguodala

Sweet Lou for the RS, FVV and Iggy for the postseason.

Coach of the Year
1. Mike Budenholzer
2. Nate McMillan
3. Nick Nurse

Bud really took Milly to another level this year with his offense, Pacers still played well even after the Dipo injury, and Nurse for obvious reasons. He also went 17-5 in the RS without Kawhi.

Executive of the Year
1- Lawrence Frank/Jerry West
2. Masai Ujiri
3. John Hort

The Clippers had an outstanding year making trades and loading up on assets and maintain cap flexibility while still being able to compete for the POs...deep team, a lot of assets, got SGA in the draft, a lot of cap space moving forward.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#13 » by ardee » Thu Jul 4, 2019 10:31 am

Doctor MJ wrote:


Doc, maybe quote a bunch of people to get votes. People probably didn't see the thread.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#14 » by ardee » Thu Jul 4, 2019 10:42 am

POY

1. Kawhi Leonard (fairly obvious pick. In '16, '17 or '18 I'd knock him for the missed games but this was kind of a weak season for top end talent so his Playoffs carry him through)
2. James Harden (I've reversed on this. I thought he was the better player for most of the RS, then I picked Giannis after his elimination until I saw Giannis' own flaws exposed against an elite defensive team)
3. Giannis Antetokounmpo (season for the ages, just getting started)
4. Stephen Curry (every ounce of logic is telling me to pick Jokic but instinctually I can't)
5. Nikola Jokic (he really should be 4, played 11 more games than Curry and had an incredible Playoffs. It just comes down to "it's Steph Curry" for me)

Super HM: Kevin Durant
HM: Joel Embiid, Paul George

OPOY

1. James Harden (by a good bit honestly. Those last 50 games were something else)
2. Stephen Curry
3. Nikola Jokic

HM: Kawhi Leonard

DPOY

1. Rudy Gobert (also kind of a country mile. Best player on a very very good team and made most of his impact on this end)
2. Joel Embiid (per minute he's almost right there to me, the missed games hurt him)
3. Paul George

HM: Giannis Antetokounmpo
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#15 » by freethedevil » Fri Jul 5, 2019 10:55 am

POY

1. Giannis. He was the primary playmaker, scorer and defensive anchor for the second best team in the postseason and the best team, by a landslide, during a historically great regular season. His impact #'s were as good as anyone's during the playoffs and were well ahead of the pack during the rs. He didnt' miss significant time, and his impact was really only rivaled by curry. People saying he had a bad series vs the raptors are focusing solely on his scoring. He still was +16 vs the champs compared to kawhi's +19 despite an atg defence sending 3 and 4 man walls to prevent his drives. It's questionable what the cieling of a giannis centered team would be due to his offensive shortcomings but his opposition have far more glaring weaknesses than a consistent jumpshot. He remains the only contender who can anchor a defence and one of, in my estimation, 4(harden, jokic, and curry are the others) who can run an elite offence. The bucks were a very legit contender that came to be by surrounding a can do everything superstar with cheap complimentary pieces. The only other player you could potentially achieve that with is anthony davis but I don't think his playmaking or perimeter d is good enough to to be held as an equal to giannis. The pelicans being out of playoff contention halfway into the season has something to do with that. He's also didn't get tested against elite opposition in the playoffs so there's really no case for him in my eyes.

2. Curry. His impact #"s rivalled giannis's in the playoffs and the likes of mcgee rated him as better when healthy due to his absurd creation whereas giannis's passing limitations allowed the raptors to limit his effectiveness in the ecf. He also posted a strong regular season. The problem here is health. The reality is if he isn't playing with kd and draymond green, his stretch of bad scoring vs the rockets gets him taken out in the second round. Add in missed regular season games and I give Giannis the edge here.


3. Kawhi. Winning a title has made people overrate him I think. He did not play great in the last games of the philly v tor series and much of the reason why he needed to take many shots is because he just isn't a great playmaker. He has an atroicious passer rating and was extremely turnover prone for most of the playoffs. He had a decent stretch vs the bucks where he started making good decisions but that's far too small of a sample size to justify highly valuing that aspect of his game. His defence also wasn't great. He played a key role for a small 4 game stretch as a man defender on giannis but that impact was only possible due to having an atg defensive supporting cast playing extreme schemes against a player with superior gravity and who passes better than kawhi does. His scoring was the best over the course of the post season but it was achieved with a slew of quality of playmakers helping him. His defensive impact overall ranked 6th compared to his teammates on some metrics and he was across the board a slight positive whose numbers were worse than curry on that end. While i'm sure angry realgmers will puke at the weakness of such metrics, consistent data covering sample sizes as a whole should nto be dismissed simply because you don't like the conclusion. One watching the game also shouldn't be suprised assumign they're looking at more than steals. Kawhi has seized to be a significant factor at the rim, and doesn't involve himself much in help. Lowry is clearly a better defender and he doesn't even protect the rim. This is important because the raptors didn't win through transcedent offence, (their rating of +3.6 relative to the league is merely good), they won through an atg offence. In addition, kawhi's only real argument for the #1, his isolation scoring, doesn't fit well on most teams. Add that he has a chronic injury which he needed to load manage for(something he only was able to do because of how good the raptors were without him), and that his claim to being a superstar(scoring) significantly faded in the finals, and rating him at #1 because he won is really just trying to attribute the raps d to kawhi's o. Consequently, his #"s aren't close to curry or giannis's. ESPN and causals use his fmvp to disregard his glaring weaknesses much like they did with durant, I won't.

4. Jokic. Was top 5 in the regular season and, stastically, #1 in the playoffs. He's potentially upsurped curry as the league's premier playmaker, is a positive on defence, and is a very good and versatile(important for scalability) scorer. Frankly if you go the 2009 lebron route, you could value him at #1 but the sample size is too small for me and the opposition too weak.

5. James Harden. His "value to team" metrics rated him as second or first compared to pg. His "goodness" metrics(ones that look at relative effiency or use luck adjustment) placed him far off the likes of giannis and even curry during the rs. The latter correlate more with winning titles. The former? Not so much. He impressively outplayed both durant and curry in the second round but a one series sample isn't enough for me. Especially when the previous series had his dependence on historically high on the ball dominance allow the jazz to completely shut him and the rockets o down when they figured out how to implement the bucks scheme despite vastly inferior personnel. Additionally his rockets team got crushed by small ball largely because of their defence. If Harden was a great defender, they win and likely find themselves with a title. Harden also is the only player here who i'd consider a negative defensively. Curry, kd, kawhi, jokic aren't very impactful, but they are passable. Harden's team defends better without him, and being kept at the post exclusively would reflect that the rockets don't like his defence either, bull pr aside. His offence was great against the warriors whose playoff defence ranked tenth out of the 16 playoff teams. His offence against elite defences like the bucks and the jazz when they successfully game planned from him was exposed as he turned from an effienct volume scorer and great playmaker to merely a great playmaker. For what it's worth, Iwould rate him higher than a healthy 2 x fmvp winner kd this season. And he is improving. I doubt he'll ever be a curry or giannis lvl player though, he simply isn't fast enough to defend or be as dangerous off the ball.

DPOY

1. Rudy gobert. Protects the rim far more than anyone else in the league and when his coach figuredout the bucks scheme was able to shut down harden's offence for 3 games despite having vastly inferior supporting personell to giannis.
2. Protects the rim the second most in the league and is the most switchable defender save for maybe playoff green and anchored a defence that was as good as the raptors while considerable lowering the fg effiency of the champs.
3. Maybe embid? H emissed games, but he nearly protected the rim as much as giannis and in the playoffs he led the first two rounds in plus minus despite being meh offensively.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#16 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Jul 7, 2019 3:18 am

Here is my ballot without any details or explanation

Spoiler:
Player of the Year

1) Kawhi Leonard
2) Nikola Jokic
3) Kevin Durant
4) Giannis Antetokounmpo
5) Lebron James

Offensive Player of the Year

1) Nikola Jokic
2) Kawhi Leonard
3) Lebron James

Defensive Player of the Year

1) Rudy Gobert
2) Joel Embiid
3) Draymond Green

Rookie of the Year

1) Luka Doncic
2) Mitchell Robinson
3) Trae Young

Most Improved Player

1) Paul George
2) Pascal Siakham
3) Spencder Dinwiddie

Sixth Man of the Year

1) Domantas Sabonis
2) Spencer Dinwiddie
3) Lou Williams

Coach of the Year

1) Mike Budenholzer
2) Nick Nurse
3) Greg Poppovich

Executive of the Year

1) Masai Urjiri
2) Sam Presti
3) Lawrence Frank




Player of the year

Kawhi Leonard - He is the most reliable scorer in the NBA and his game is tailor made for the post season. A lot of people criticize Leonard for not passing, but honestly, it seems like he is so good at scoring that he rather just figure out how to drop a bucket on a double team than pass out of it. Offensively he is quite comparable to Durant and Curry I think – but when he tries on defense he’s on another level than them.

Nikola Jokic - He is a true offensive savant. He stretches the floor. He is one of the best passers in the league. He can score at will. He can work the glass. He does every thing a big needs. He isn’t even bad on defense, some people talk like he is Enes Kanter defensively but he’s not and statistically he has never been rated as a low impact defender. If the Nuggets had real star power I think Nikola would absolutely kill it. He still carried his team to the 2nd seed with severe injuries, and a good playoff run.


Kevin Durant - I am not sure what to think of Durant this season. Every time I saw him play in the post season he seemed better than Curry. It also seemed like he was out playing Curry during the RS, though neither GSW guy looked like world beaters during it. I don’t understand why Durant is punished for injuries, he played a full regular season and 12 post season games. The last game he played against the Raptors he absolutely killed it before rupturing his Achilles. Offensively he is on another level from Giannis – and while Curry/James might be better offensive players (spacing and playmaking respectively), I think Durant gives you more defense to make up for it.

Giannis Antetokounmpo - Giannis had some serious domination in the paint this regular season. Offensively, he was up there with the greats. In the playoffs he was stifled to more human levels, but still really good. Giannis is probably a top 5 defensive player this year – so he gives you that elite 2 way big play. Someone like Curry was really not good defensively this season, so I think I’ll give a small edge to Giannis but it is very close.

Lebron James - It seems odd to add him because his regular season stats are not as good as Harden’s or Curry’s, and he obviously does not have post season stats to back him up. However, from watching him play it still seems like all the things he does would translate incredibly well into the post season. The Lakers were on pace to make the post season before James got hurt, and he was shut down quite early so his games played are artificially lowered. James took a hit by joining a bad team. However, I can’t help but shake the idea that he is more or less the same player as last year. Even though this was the “bad” season, is it really enough to knock the best player outside of the top 5, I am not fully convinced, but it seems like I am shafting Steph Curry. James Harden had his best season and really did have a special RS, but his post season is still nowhere near dominating enough to keep him on top.


Offensive player of the year

Nikola Jokic - So many people latch onto this idea that you must be a volume scorer to be a great offensive player, well, Jokic pretty much proved that he can drop buckets if he needs to in the playoffs. He averaged a cool 25 points, while also putting well over 8 assist per game – and lead the playoffs in rebounding (4 offensive rebounds per game). Yeah…the guys an animal. He can do it all, volume score, shoot, post up, put back, post from low post, high post and beyond 3 point. He sets killer screens and handoff passes. The Nuggets were as good as any of the other top offenses despite not having much talent outside of Jokic. A lot of people point to the perimeter players the Nuggets have, and honestly, they’re pretty mediocre – they’re really “good” because Jokic makes them look good.

Kawhi Leonard - He is the best scorer in the NBA. He can score from anywhere on the court. Killer post game, mid range game, 3 point game, can get into the paint as well. Even though he got caught over handling the ball this post season it’s largely because often some Raptor players were just too shook to take it – he has shown many times he can playoff ball and plays it very well. This puts him over Durant because he’s a better offball player, and I’d put him over Curry because he’s a better on ball player. Leonard had a good team, but no other star that commanded double teams, so him being able to very consistently score over double and triple teams gives the nod for him to place #2.


Lebron James - Not going to be a popular pick because lack of games (he was sat even when healthy toward the end) and, the Lakers are a joke. The Lakers did not have a good offensive, but that has to do with severe lack of spacing and shooting. Lebron James can still get into the paint at will, still post up guys, and is a killer playmaker. Offensively, I trust him way more than Curry or Durant – and it’s a shame we did not see him in the post season, as I have little doubt in my mind that he would have dominated.


Defensive Player of the year

Rudy Gobert - Rudy Gobert was on top of most relevant defensive stats, and helped anchor one of the best defenses in the league. There is still a ton of value in locking down the paint. Rudy gets a bad rap for getting “killed” in the playoffs, but he was pretty damn effective against Houston – considering Utah implemented a system that allowed Harden to drive right at the rim, Gobert adapted pretty well. When he was able to play in a more traditional defensive manor he absolutely crushed the Thunder’s offense, so the idea that perimeter players negate him is incredibly over blown.

Joel Embiid - Embiid has a million tools on offensive, but he can never put it together in a fluid enough motion for him to become eye poppingly dominant. Embiid’s defense on the other hand is not only consistent, but always improving. His ability to move his feet quickly laterally makes him the best perimeter defender at his position, and of course he does the other things centers are supposed to do like block shots and grab boards. He was consistent throughout the RS, and stepped it up in the playoffs.

Draymond Green - Speaking of stepping up, Green coasted during the regular season and probably was not a top 3 defender, but in the playoffs he was by far the best defender (he was #3 in defensive playoff PIPM as well). He has tremendous playmaking on the defensive end. He was probably the best Warrior the first 2, if not 3 series they had. Defense is formed heavily by narratives though, and because someone like Pascal Siakham could score on Green it’s going to make people forget that Green gave the Clippers, Rockets and Blazers the business. He does what Giannis can do but better (well, aside from the rebounding).


Rookie of the year


Luka Doncic - Luka showed a bit of everything this season, but what makes him #1 is his floor generalship. I always get the feeling that he really is leading his team when he is out there. Luka is a bit overhyped his rookie season, probably because he was eye popping his first few months and after the start of the season no one cares about rookies anymore. Luka slowed down a bit, and doesn’t seem to be elite at any aspect of basketball, but he might become an ultimate versatile player and an all time secondary ball handler if things go right.

Mitchell Robinson - Mitchell is the only rookie that made me go “holy ****” when watching him. He is the first player I’ve seen where I thought “this guy could be Bill Russell”. Even if he was shorter he would still get a lot of blocked shots, his timing is so good and he doesn’t need to rely on leaving his feet. His athleticism is still a welcomed advantage, nothing like seeing a center semi-regularly block 3 point shots. Biggest issue with him is that he can’t stay on the court due to how absurdly foul prone he is, and he is raw in a lot of aspects of the game in general. I think if he was on a good team, he could have been a very effective bench player.

Trae Young - Trae was truly awful the first couple of months. The only way for him to make a splash is to become the reincarnation of Tiny Archibald because physically I doubt he’ll ever be a defender. His scoring and playmaking took big leaps, and his shooting is going to lead to great gravity in the future. Like Mitchell, Trae would have been a really great bench player if he was put in the right system. I don’t think he’s good enough offensively to offset his defense yet, so he gets third place – but I do value his offense more than Ayton’s due to superior playmaking and shooting. Also, I’m always more forgiving of bad defensive point guards than bad defensive centers.

Most improved player

Paul George - George’s MVP candidacy has kind of taken away his MIP campaign. It is much more impressive, and significantly more rare for a player to go from top 15 to a legitimate superstar at the age of 29. This is the Paul George everyone was waiting for in Indiana. He became a legit 28 PPG+ guy WHILE also playing elite defense. Pascal made a great leap, but many 3rd year players have done similar leaps.

Pascal Siakham - Pascal should have been an all-star this year. He was a decent but raw player in his second year, and has been largely refined into a skilled scoring big who plays great defense. He’s not #1 because he is still a third year player, so it is logical that he would make a big leap as many players do in their third years.

Spencer Dinwiddie - This last spot is a tight one between two 6MOY candidates. I give Dinwiddie my vote over Sabonis because Spencer’s scoring really did go up a full tier. Now, Sabonis hit a new level of efficiency (63 TS% this year, last year he was 57 TS%), but Sabonis is still largely playing off of others, as we have seen in the post season Sabonis still cannot create his own shot. Spencer can create for himself and for others, and he has became a real volume scorer. If he played 30 minutes a game he would probably be a 20 PPG guy just like Lou Williams is. D’Angelo Russell has taken away a lot of Spencer’s glory, and quite frankly, I don’t get it – D’Angelo is really not that different from last year, he made improvements players typically make at their age and he played more minutes which lead to an increase in numbers. Spencer I thought was as good as Russell in the RS and was much better in the post season (Russell was a joke to be honest in the playoffs). D’Angelo Russell was truly overrated this year.

Sixth Man of the Year

Domantas Sabonis - Everyone knows Sabonis can shoot and grab boards, but his defense was really impressive this year. A lot of 6th men of the year candidates pretty dreadful at that end, but Sabonis helped anchor the 3rd best defense in the league. 3 point shooting, efficient, good in the paint, elite defense, stretch big – yeah, that’s going to beat out PG microwave scorers.

Spencer Dinwiddie - Last year I thought Dinwiddie was a bit overrated, and this year it seems like it is the opposite. I really felt like he was the heart and soul of the Nets. He’s not quite the offensive player Lou Williams is, but the gap is not nearly as big as some people make it – and he’s not god awful defensively like Lou and Montrel are.

Lou Williams - Unlike Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams is a respectable pick to get 6 official sixth man of the year awards. He is a really good supplementary scoring and his playmaking is not awful for his play style. However, I think I really do need to stress that Lou Williams is one of the worst defenders in the league. I have him over Montrel because Montrel has prettier stats, he is still largely a garbage man who doesn’t need to create his own looks, and he might be an even worse defender than Lou is.

Coach of the year

Mike Budenholzer - Budenholzer has so much evidence of his impact this season, it’s hard not to give him the award. The Bucks went from a competitive first round team to a team that looked like it was destined for finals greatness. The Bucks defense was amazing and they had the best SRS – also their system perfectly balanced and implemented a lot of good players which is something Kidd could not do.

Nick Nurse - Like Budenholzer, Nick Nurse did a great job balancing a ton of good players. Nick had better results in the post season, but his team is MUCH more talented than the Bucks are. Nick Nurse and Casey are not that different, but Nick Nurse is much better at the micromanagement aspects of coaching. He really gets subbing down right and fielded a lot of flexible rotations.

Greg Popovich - This is a vote to old faithful. Popovich’s main competition here is the Pacers, Nate McMillan. After losing Manu Ginobili, Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green – the Spurs were decimated by injuries. Popovich still kept it together and even managed to construct a good offensive around DeMar DeRozan. Regular season results is what the Spurs do, but they took the Denver Nuggets to 7 games in round 1, while Nate McMillan’s Pacers were a relative pushover against the middling Celtics.

Executive of the year

Masai Urjiri - Dumped Demar who was a faux star for arguably the best player in the game in Kawhi – oh, and got a good 3 and D guy in Danny Green to go along with it. The one ear rental gambit was easily worth it for Toronto, even if they had come up short winning the championship. A great mid season trade for Marc Gasol whose defense killed it in the post season sealed the deal for them winning the season.

Sam Presti - I swear every year I give Presti a vote while no one gives a crap. He makes great moves every season and yeah, by the end of the season the Thunder usually lose in bad fashion which I guess makes people think his moves are not good? I mean let’s look at this, in 2018 the Thunder lost in the first round after acquiring Paul George in a trade (who openly said he was going to Los Angeles) – Presti STILL managed to resign him for 4 years. Okay, Paul George is really good, but he’s still just a top 15ish guy – wrong, he ended up improving into one of the best players in the league. So really, Presti made a super clutch signing, and as we can see, Presti still has the option of trading George for other stuff in the future (which he did, but I am not counting that toward this season).

Lawrence Frank - Made a very deep team with a lot of tradeable assets. I legitimately think SGA will be the best player of his draft class, either him or Mitchell Robinson. The Clippers made a great competitive team while keeping cap flexibility to compete in free agency (which worked out in hindsight).

I think what the Clippers did this season was more nuanced and more forward thinking – the Bucks, their biggest competitor for the third spot pretty much did a “no duh” and fired a bad coach and replaced him with a great one. GSW made a good risk/reward signing with Cousins that did not work out also.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#17 » by Jaivl » Sun Jul 7, 2019 9:59 am

1. James Harden
GOAT tier offensive performance in the regular season. Banged a +109 ORtg against the best defensive backcourt duo + DPOY + best overall defense in the league in Utah, which used unprecedented tactics against him (only Curry suffered something similar). Other than Green, clearly outplayed everyone on the GSW series.

2. Giannis Antetokounmpo
Defensive player of the year contender who can and will create open shots with ease? Sign me in. His driving offense was kind of thwarted on the Toronto series, but considering it took a team like Toronto to do it and considering you can't take away his defense, I'm not sure he can drop much from the RS.

3. Nikola Jokic
Had him #5 before but... I don't know why so low. Outplayed both Kawhi and Curry in both RS and PO during the time avaliable. 115 team ORtg on the playoffs, and that's with an inexplicable team-wide collapse he was not in any way responsible of. Closer to #1 than #5 if we're being honest.

4. Kawhi Leonard
Second best player on the playoffs after Jokic, subpar on the regular season but after the drop of multiple rivals he ends up in here. Don't think his defense much to write home about, very solid albeit unspectacular, but yeah, he was lit offensively for most of the postseason. Was even drawing Jordan comparisons, which were a bit too much but it speaks to his level of dominance.

5. Stephen Curry
Had the huge luxury of being carried on the regular season, the Clippers series and the Houston series. Got outplayed by Harden for 5 games. Even then, he's got such an impact that he makes it impossible to leave him out of the top 5. Best player here but not the best season, at all.



OPOY:
1. James Harden
2. Stephen Curry
3. Nikola Jokic


Won't vote on the rest.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#18 » by eminence » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:58 am

Suppose I'll put something together.

1. James Harden - 2nd straight year at #1 for me, think he and Giannis were 1a/1b coming into the playoffs and I think he played well in the playoffs, Jazz played a straight up stupid defense to force the rest of the Rockets to beat them. Hope that doesn't get lost to history. Really played quite well vs GS, unfortunately for him couldn't pull it out at the end of game 5 or in game 6.

2. Giannis Antetokounmpo - Other clear top candidate during the RS, got a little bit exposed during the ECF, excited to see him grow. Defense was always there.

3. Stephen Curry - Think his RS is getting badly underrated, even with the missed games I think he was probably top 5. Main problem for moving higher was a weak start to the playoffs. But 1st rounds generally don't matter much to me and he closed out the Rockets so hard to have him too low. Great final 2 rounds.

4. Kawhi Leonard - Raptors cast badly underrated (Lowry/Green/Siakam/Gasol is a great crew), not sure Kawhi would be in my top 20 for the RS. Great playoffs and finishing the job gets him onto the list, but doesn't get him past the guys I considered for #1.

5. Nikola Jokic - Right there as well, especially statistically, but didn't get to see him against a contender or great defense, hope to see it next season.

HM - KD out due to injury, would've qualified for sure without. Paul George right there - great RS, not great, but underrated playoffs. Needed more leadership to go higher, Russ shot them out of that series. Embiid the other player very very close, think a bit too much of his case rests on a single great series that his team lost. Draymond had a similar case to Kawhi but his team didn't win so he doesn't get the spoils. LBJ/AD missing out on contention for injury/trade forcing reasons. Lillard/Gobert not so far off and I at least thought about them a little, but come up short for me.
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#19 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jul 7, 2019 11:56 pm

Ugh, forum ate my post. I hate having to deal with this, will try again later.
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And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
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Khris Middleton
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Re: 2018-19 POY Voting Thread 

Post#20 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Jul 8, 2019 6:52 am

Hey folks I'm going to put in my vote tomorrow.

When I do, unless I have people asking for a delay of some sorts, I'll tally up votes.

In terms of asking:
1) I really have no problem delaying, just tell me how much time you need.
2) The idea to quote people who should be voting and aren't is a good one. Feel free to do that, but I'm not planning to.
In another world...
Your Longshoremen of Long Beach...

And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
John Stockton
Bobby Jones
Rudy Gobert
Khris Middleton
Connie Hawkins
Otto Porter
Ryan Anderson

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