Greatest Team to Never Win A Ring: '93 Suns vs '02 Kings

[pandrade83]

It's the last matchup of round 2!

This is a voting based tournament to determine who was the GOAT team to not win a title. The original thread for this is

here - please read the original thread if this is new to you!

Each matchup will utilize the rules, refs, & equipment of the older team in this tournament. This hopefully will eliminate a bit of the recency bias. Health is as it was at the close of the Regular Season; perhaps a team didn't win because of injury.

One last thing. Voting without any reason listed at all will not be counted. Each thread will be open until it slips to page 2 of the board.

'02 Kings 61-21 SRS +7.6, Offense +4.5, Defense -3.4, lost in WCF to Lakers in 7
Divac
Webber
Peja
Christie
Bibby

Turkoglou
Pollard
B. Jackson

'93 Suns 62-20, SRS +6.3, Offense +5.3, Defense -1.3, lost in Finals to Bulls in 6
West
Barkley
Dumas
Majerle
K. Johnson

Ainge
Chambers
Ceballos
F. Johnson
O. Miller

[penbeast0]

Not sure you can consider Ceballos healthy for the playoffs that year. I was looking to see if KJ was . . . KJ missed game one but played in the games thereafter, but in the opening round, Ceballos played only 5 minutes in game 2 and only 5 in game 4; a pattern which continued through a playoff in which he played only 16/25 of the games overall and only averaged 11 minutes per game. Dumas was starting for him much of the time with he or Chambers playing a 3 big man front line much of the time which reduced the spacing for KJ's drive and score/dish game. KJ wasn't much of a floor spacer either which left it almost solely to
Majerle and Ainge. For some reason, they didn't use Frank Johnson or Negele Knight much with Majerle at the 3; not nearly as much as I'd expect.

[Owly]

Not sure you can consider Ceballos healthy for the playoffs that year. I was looking to see if KJ was . . . KJ missed game one but played in the games thereafter, but in the opening round, Ceballos played only 5 minutes in game 2 and only 5 in game 4; a pattern which continued through a playoff in which he played only 16/25 of the games overall and only averaged 11 minutes per game. Dumas was starting for him much of the time with he or Chambers playing a 3 big man front line much of the time which reduced the spacing for KJ's drive and score/dish game. KJ wasn't much of a floor spacer either which left it almost solely to
Majerle and Ainge. For some reason, they didn't use Frank Johnson or Negele Knight much with Majerle at the 3; not nearly as much as I'd expect.

Is playoff health established as the standard? Don't know as I haven't voted and only ducked in and out of these threads. In any case health for a team in a notional series or comparison is always going to be hard to pinpoint when looking at a season's worth of a team.

Not sure I'm following re: Knight and F. Johnson, being neither floor spacers nor very good.

[pandrade83]

Not sure you can consider Ceballos healthy for the playoffs that year. I was looking to see if KJ was . . . KJ missed game one but played in the games thereafter, but in the opening round, Ceballos played only 5 minutes in game 2 and only 5 in game 4; a pattern which continued through a playoff in which he played only 16/25 of the games overall and only averaged 11 minutes per game. Dumas was starting for him much of the time with he or Chambers playing a 3 big man front line much of the time which reduced the spacing for KJ's drive and score/dish game. KJ wasn't much of a floor spacer either which left it almost solely to
Majerle and Ainge. For some reason, they didn't use Frank Johnson or Negele Knight much with Majerle at the 3; not nearly as much as I'd expect.

Is playoff health established as the standard? Don't know as I haven't voted and only ducked in and out of these threads. In any case health for a team in a notional series or comparison is always going to be hard to pinpoint when looking at a season's worth of a team.

Not sure I'm following re: Knight and F. Johnson, being neither floor spacers nor very good.

From a health standpoint, assume that teams have the health that they did at the start of the playoffs (be it broad as you want). Given that KJ played 4/5 games and that 18/10 is a good performance for him that year, I assume full health for KJ. Ceballos was pretty limited.

For the starters, I always used the most Games started in the RS - but I'll edit that to put Dumas in over Ceballos given the injury.

[penbeast0]

Not sure you can consider Ceballos healthy for the playoffs that year. I was looking to see if KJ was . . . KJ missed game one but played in the games thereafter, but in the opening round, Ceballos played only 5 minutes in game 2 and only 5 in game 4; a pattern which continued through a playoff in which he played only 16/25 of the games overall and only averaged 11 minutes per game. Dumas was starting for him much of the time with he or Chambers playing a 3 big man front line much of the time which reduced the spacing for KJ's drive and score/dish game. KJ wasn't much of a floor spacer either which left it almost solely to
Majerle and Ainge. For some reason, they didn't use Frank Johnson or Negele Knight much with Majerle at the 3; not nearly as much as I'd expect.

Is playoff health established as the standard? Don't know as I haven't voted and only ducked in and out of these threads. In any case health for a team in a notional series or comparison is always going to be hard to pinpoint when looking at a season's worth of a team.

Not sure I'm following re: Knight and F. Johnson, being neither floor spacers nor very good.

Relative to Tom Chambers playing SF next to Barkley, yes, both would be considered floor spacers. And I believe the project said that health at the beginning of the playoffs was the determining factor.

[euroleague]

I'd take the Suns. just a deeper team, and probably the best one to not win in the 90s other than the Sonics and maybe the Magic. If the team had been in the East, I think they would've won it - but the Bulls came out hard and rested, and the Suns were coming off a brutal 7 game series against the Sonics.

I think the Sonics would've won in that year as well, were they in the East.

Barkley > Webber
KJ > Bibby

[Owly]

Not sure you can consider Ceballos healthy for the playoffs that year. I was looking to see if KJ was . . . KJ missed game one but played in the games thereafter, but in the opening round, Ceballos played only 5 minutes in game 2 and only 5 in game 4; a pattern which continued through a playoff in which he played only 16/25 of the games overall and only averaged 11 minutes per game. Dumas was starting for him much of the time with he or Chambers playing a 3 big man front line much of the time which reduced the spacing for KJ's drive and score/dish game. KJ wasn't much of a floor spacer either which left it almost solely to
Majerle and Ainge. For some reason, they didn't use Frank Johnson or Negele Knight much with Majerle at the 3; not nearly as much as I'd expect.

Is playoff health established as the standard? Don't know as I haven't voted and only ducked in and out of these threads. In any case health for a team in a notional series or comparison is always going to be hard to pinpoint when looking at a season's worth of a team.

Not sure I'm following re: Knight and F. Johnson, being neither floor spacers nor very good.

Relative to Tom Chambers playing SF next to Barkley, yes, both would be considered floor spacers. And I believe the project said that health at the beginning of the playoffs was the determining factor.

In the year given and for career, Chambers is comfortably tops in FT%. In the year given and for career, Chambers is comfortably tops in 3 point percentage. I thus struggle to see why, whether in general or versus Chambers, the other two could be considered "floor spacers".

At beginning of playoffs:
Barkley: coming off shoulder injury - played last 3 RS game, conditioning somewhat questionable around time of return.
K Johnson: Sprained MCL celebrating 80th game win over Portland. Misses final 2 games and first of postseason. Claimed "no pain or swelling" in 2 days of workouts prior to G2. (Many other injuries over season)
Ceballos: Ceballos's injury "aggravated a stress reaction in his right foot" in first game of conference finals. Injury occurred originally April 8th vs Sacramento. Ceballos misses 3 games to original injury, returns to play 38 mins on April 14th. Probability of re-injury ultimately unknowable.

[penbeast0]

Having watched them play, though Frank Johnson more in his time in Washington, both did more midrange/outside shooting than Chambers who was more a slasher/finisher whose faceup game normally came within 15 feet. Chambers was a lot more talented an offensive player than either of course.

My main point, however, is that the injuries, particularly Ceballos, hurt the Suns' depth which was a clear advantage to them if both teams healthy.

[pandrade83]

Having watched them play, though Frank Johnson more in his time in Washington, both did more midrange/outside shooting than Chambers who was more a slasher/finisher whose faceup game normally came within 15 feet. Chambers was a lot more talented an offensive player than either of course.

My main point, however, is that the injuries, particularly Ceballos, hurt the Suns' depth which was a clear advantage to them if both teams healthy.

Even without Ceballos, Phoenix is still a pretty deep team; though I think your point is fair. Aside from Ceballos, Phoenix was relatively healthy during the playoffs.

[Owly]

Having watched them play, though Frank Johnson more in his time in Washington, both did more midrange/outside shooting than Chambers who was more a slasher/finisher whose faceup game normally came within 15 feet. Chambers was a lot more talented an offensive player than either of course.

My main point, however, is that the injuries, particularly Ceballos, hurt the Suns' depth which was a clear advantage to them if both teams healthy.

Johnson has but a single year in which the tops Chambers’s career FT% percentage. Chambers has his first two years (outliers) and ’97 (3 out of 4 attempts) below Johnson’s career mark. Given the way shooting fluctuates season-to-season, and, despite this, the lack of overlap, this would tend to indicate Chambers is a superior caliber shooter.

The one criticism I’ve seen of Chambers shooting is (for a specific year) in the mid-range but certainly for the back half of his career, per the Barry guides, he was considered a good outside shooter (some shot selection issues noted, and perhaps somewhat "for position" but a noted positive). That Johnson couldn’t penetrate (or Knight couldn’t finish [though nor by the end could Chambers]) doesn’t really make them floor spacers.

In his first two years, (2nd and 3rd for career minutes) Johnson was a pretty willing shooter of threes for the era, but an awful one (pretty bad even for the era).

To the broader point, Chambers being beyond the fringes of the rotation is bad news (just more for his lack of defense, passing, efficiency and, if not a 3, rebounding).

[Odinn21]

Round 2? This is the Finals for me. At least I've always considered these 2 teams as the best teams without a ring since the merger.

It can sound strange but I have an eye for teams who outscored their opponents in a playoff series, but didn't win the series. For example; even though the Spurs won the title they were outscored by the Pistons in 2005 Finals. Very similar thing for the Celtics against the Cavs in 2008 ECSF.
The Kings versus the Lakers has the same thing. The Kings actually outscored the Lakers by 2 over 7 games.
Almost all of that kind of series I know of went to game 7s. Except for the Suns in 1993.

They didn't outscore the Bulls in '93 Finals. But the Bulls also didn't outscore them either. Both teams scored 640 points over the series. The Suns lost the series in 6 despite not getting outscored by the victorious team.


I'm going with 1993 Suns here. 2002 Kings should've won the title but that doesn't automatically make 'em better than the Suns.
Though I can see Adelman outcoaching Westphal. It's the more likely scenario.

[JordansBulls]

I trust Barkely more than Webber.

[pandrade83]

I'll also take Phoenix. Even with the injuries that Owly & Pen describe above with Ceballos, Phoenix had enough firepower to play Chicago to a near draw. Sacramento was roughly equivalent to Phoenix but the era was weaker & Phoenix has the best player (by a very healthy margin) in the series.

[TheBomb81]

93 Suns for me.

[Joey Wheeler]

1993 Suns are one of the best teams never to win a title.

2002 Kings are one of the best teams ever, title or no title. They were better than the 2002 Lakers.

This is easily the Kings and I'm honestly disappointed to see so many votes for the Suns. I know the Suns had the better star power, but so did the Lakers in 2002 by a bigger margin. The Kings were a perfectly cohesive unit, better than the sum of the parts. There's no way the Suns would be able to defend them, the Kings sets with Webber and Divac creating from the high post would have been even more effective.