Current Giannis v Prime Garnett

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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#41 » by Timmyyy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:26 pm

skones wrote:
Timmyyy wrote:Giannis himself doesn't space the floor hence negative spacing effect. Giannis does provide great gravity inside creating openings. One does not exclude the other from being true.
I never said I give bud all the credit. Of course Giannis enabled that offense.
You act as if I said Giannis would be bad when I am just arguing that he isn't as good as KG. I already said that I have him on weak best player in the league level.
You are still only pointing to Giannis insane scoring that I already admitted to be great. But still the impact isnt on the level of KG and definitely not on shaqs which is why I said he doesn't add to the discussion. You say, hey he scores nearly as much as Shaq hence he is as good as him offensively and that flat out is incomplete. Shaq had clearly more Impact on offense then both so it's unnecessary to bring him up.

Look at any +/- statistic of any year of Giannis career and you will see that it has him lower than you see him

And its really funny how you act as if I have an agenda when Giannis is my favorite player in the nba alongside Jokic and I have absolutely no sympathie for KG. In fact he is the exact type of sportsman I hate.
But other than you I at least try to put my fandom aside and analyze what I see in the court and in the data. Don't be so offended when someone brings up obvious flaws in your darling's game.
With that attitude I have no interest in discussing with you. But since you didn't bring up anything other than scoring I would say this discussion wasn't going anywhere anyway.
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Most of the post was about the gravity (ie. spacing) Giannis creates which you flat out ignored and somehow only started reading at the Shaq comment.

I'm not offended by a knock on my "darling." I think your "negative spacing" drivel is trash. Gravity is the thing that provides spacing in this league. If you can shoot, players have to lean towards you to contest, they have to rotate harder. It spreads the defense thin on the interior, that's spacing. Conversely collapsing the defense, forcing defenders to help down, bunching the defense up, such as Giannis does, ALSO creates space. It creates space on the perimeter for wide open threes, and it creates easy looks on the backside when the defense hard rotates. That is GRAVITY. The idea that spacing is only created one way (in this case shooting the three) is false.

There aren't a lot of players who produce this collapsable effect, but Giannis is an outlier and it should be acknowledged as such. You're legitimately using this sort of "negative spacing effect" for Giannis that just isn't there. He doesn't space the floor in a traditional manner with his shooting, but make no mistake he DOES space it. Calling it a "negative spacing effect" as if he's causing some detriment to the ball club is entirely off base. THAT's what I take issue with.

Everything you wrote I already acknowledged. He has that effect. But him being off ball and a defender just leaves him alone on the perimeter, packing the paint is a negative spacing effect (btw never said how big exactly that effect is in my eyes. So you are arguing against something you don't even fully know) no matter if your name is Giannis or whatever.
You are having an issue with one of the easiest concepts of modern basketball because it is a flaw of your favorite player. If you can't except him having a negative spacing effect because he can't shoot, you won't acknowledge anything negative. So please proceed in your bubble and I enjoy Giannis knowing what he can and can't do.

Edit: i didn't ignore anything. I agree with this point in my second sentence of my former post.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#42 » by vct33 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:39 pm

KG is top 3 at his position all-time.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#43 » by MiltownHawkeye » Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:43 am

ShotCreator wrote:
skones wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Giannis has a long way to go. KG is the better overall defender, playmaker, rebounder and scorer IMO.


KG only topped him in rebounding per 100 possessions twice in his career. He's certainly not a better scorer, the gap there is pretty sizable in Antetokounmpo's favor. Garnett never topped him in Assists per 100 possessions, though Garnett consistently had a better A/TO ratio during his peak Minnesota years (01-05).

The gap isn't nearly as sizable as some will insist.

Giannis scoring does not come in a vacuum. Its not that additive to a team because he skill set stinks and he isnt versatile. These guys are on he opposite ends of the boxscore spectrum in terms of impact. Over and under selling value.

This looks like a Giannis take from like, 2015.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#44 » by udfa » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:34 am

Giannis. It's close defensively, but not offensively. Giannis can score in higher volume at higher efficiency than KG and can more effectively create offense as opposed to finishing an opportunity created by a teammate. Giannis' speed, agility, ball handling and finishing ability are significantly superior to KG and it makes a big difference.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#45 » by NO-KG-AI » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:29 am

Giannis can’t create offense in the half court as well as Garnett, and he’s not in the ball park defensively.

He’s going to put up prettier scoring numbers against teams that can’t keep up in transition, but he’s not going to be able to anchor a great offense or defense against great teams without considerable growth.

The playmaking gap is MASSIVE, despite what the assists numbers say, and that became very apparent in the playoffs.


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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#46 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:34 am

Sublime187 wrote:Giannis has a long way to go. KG is the better overall defender, playmaker, rebounder and scorer IMO.

No. Garnett isn't making defenses do the things giannis does with his scoring. Playmaking and Defense is valid.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#47 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:37 am

[gfycat][/gfycat]
NO-KG-AI wrote:
The playmaking gap is MASSIVE, despite what the assists numbers say, and that became very apparent in the playoffs.

Huh?

Garnett has never played a defense anywhere nearly as good as the 2019 raptors and he's never offensively justified such an extreme scheme.

Giannis being able to draw 4 defenders above the key to shut off his drives is in of itself a testament to his playmaking and has nothing to do with his jumpshot or assist #'s.

KG's defense gives him the edge, but these takes are atrocious. When has garnett's scoring ever justified this kind of defense?
https://youtu.be/L-EPx-v1XIY?t=50
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#48 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:44 am

udfa wrote:Giannis. It's close defensively,

Uh.. no:
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2-year-scaled-weighted-APM-peaks-768x516.png

Garnett is literally one of the GOAT defenders. Giannis isn't.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#49 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:45 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
skones wrote:
Jaivl wrote:I mean, you don't want to get in a +/- argument against Garnett, because he is easily #1 there. For perspective, his career average on/off is +11.5. That's nearly 3 points over Giannis' peak, and counting the Brooklyn seasons. He peaked at +23.6. +10 is obviously very good, but KG is a whole different animal in terms of impact, and that's why some people have him in their top 5 GOAT.


There's a HUGE difference between not having the +/- numbers Garnett does due to the teams he played on which CERTAINLY play a factor, and being on the "opposite end of the spectrum," because he's not "additive" because his "skillset stinks." Follow the context on the back and forth.

FWIW, KG never achieved the BPM that Giannis did this past season peaking at 9.9 to the 10.8 mark by Giannis this past season.
BPM isn't a real impact stat

Also, harden ranks higher than giannis....
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#50 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:55 am

skones wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
skones wrote:
There's a HUGE difference between not having the +/- numbers Garnett does due to the teams he played on which CERTAINLY play a factor, and being on the "opposite end of the spectrum," because he's not "additive" because his "skillset stinks." Follow the context on the back and forth.

FWIW, KG never achieved the BPM that Giannis did this past season peaking at 9.9 to the 10.8 mark by Giannis this past season.
BPM isn't a real impact stat


Nor is a straight +/- on off split given it doesn't provide any type of context when comparing players in different situations.

No. But +/-, even raw, comes directly from game score. BPM gets that second hand by weighting box scores based on the same foundation the plethora of #'s(which do a better job predicting winning than bpm does) that put garnett right up there with duncan and lebron as duncan as the most imapctful players of the era. Giannis's 2019 #'s didn't even give him a clear edge on 2019 curry.

And it's especially hilarious you're using bpm, when giannis wasn't even top 3 in 2019 there.


It's also silly, you're bringing up the context of the teams garnett played for but also using bpm which takes winning out of the equation.

You're basically using a discount version of the things that say garnett was better because you don't understand how it works.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#51 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:02 am

G35 wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
skones wrote:
Is that why the offense was 5.1 points per 100 possessions better with Giannis on the floor than when he was off? How about the 8.9 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor than off in total and being the engine behind a top 4 offense and the top defense in the league last season. Sounds pretty "additive" to me and a far cry from the "opposite end of the impact spectrum" drivel you're spewing. Need I mention the 10.8 BPM, 7.6 VORP, .292 WS/48, and the 6.69 RPM? Or do those all say he's on the "opposite end of the impact spectrum" too?

But wow! Guys score more when they're forced to with Giannis off the floor because they have the ball in their hands? You don't say!

I mean, you don't want to get in a +/- argument against Garnett, because he is easily #1 there. For perspective, his career average on/off is +11.5. That's nearly 3 points over Giannis' peak, and counting the Brooklyn seasons. He peaked at +23.6. +10 is obviously very good, but KG is a whole different animal in terms of impact, and that's why some people have him in their top 5 GOAT.


Players that play in systems that benefit everyone do not rate as well in on/off.

Switchable, less ball dominant, pass heavy, and defense orientated players fit better in systems than ball dominant offensive dynamos. How does this comment have anything to do with kg?
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#52 » by udfa » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:57 am

freethedevil wrote:
udfa wrote:Giannis. It's close defensively,

Uh.. no:
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2-year-scaled-weighted-APM-peaks-768x516.png

Garnett is literally one of the GOAT defenders. Giannis isn't.


What was Giannis' APM last season?
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#53 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:33 am

udfa wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
udfa wrote:Giannis. It's close defensively,

Uh.. no:
http://www.backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2-year-scaled-weighted-APM-peaks-768x516.png

Garnett is literally one of the GOAT defenders. Giannis isn't.


What was Giannis' APM last season?

I can't find apm for the 2019 season. :-?


Anyway, I may be underrating giannis defensively. Metrics are split between him and gobert defensively on a per minuite basis. I also may be underrating garnett offensively. His peak season set the record for apm at +8, so if his defensive impact is around +4, his offense should be nearly half of that.

Giannis's total pipm isn't far off garnett's apm and his defensive pipm isn't far off his defensive apm. I don't know if the metrics have different curves for point differential but theoretically, giannis might not be that far off in the rs where he was a clear #1.

That changes in the playoffs where garnett's best stretch ranked with the very best in recent history...
http://www.backpicks.com/2018/06/10/aupm-2-0-the-top-playoff-performers-of-the-databall-era/
While Giannis's didn't:
https://youtu.be/93zief7g2Jk?t=1032
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#54 » by Tracymcgoaty » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:45 pm

Threetimes10 wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Giannis has a long way to go. KG is the better overall defender, playmaker, rebounder and scorer IMO.


How is KG the better scorer?




KG had everything on offense...Post moves midranger..People used to joke that if KG just took a step back he'd be hitting 3s instead of midrangers because he used to take long 2pters.

Prime KG ahead of Giannis all day.

Does Giannis even have a go to move? Dude is a freak athlete but doesn't have a set of moves he can go to...yet.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#55 » by Jaivl » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:05 pm

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
Threetimes10 wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Giannis has a long way to go. KG is the better overall defender, playmaker, rebounder and scorer IMO.


How is KG the better scorer?




KG had everything on offense...Post moves midranger..People used to joke that if KG just took a step back he'd be hitting 3s instead of midrangers because he used to take long 2pters.

Prime KG ahead of Giannis all day.

Does Giannis even have a go to move? Dude is a freak athlete but doesn't have a set of moves he can go to...yet.

I mean, "bring your head down and eurostep from the 3 pt line" works quite well against 90% of teams.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#56 » by Jiminy Glick » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:10 am

We saw that Leonard was able to limit Giannis, Garnett would probably be more effective especially on a good defensive team. If Giannis had a quality jumpshot he could be comparable to Garnett but he doesn't. Garnett plays within the flow of the offense better because of his good shooting ability.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#57 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:23 am

Tracymcgoaty wrote:
Threetimes10 wrote:
Sublime187 wrote:Giannis has a long way to go. KG is the better overall defender, playmaker, rebounder and scorer IMO.


How is KG the better scorer?




KG had everything on offense...Post moves midranger..People used to joke that if KG just took a step back he'd be hitting 3s instead of midrangers because he used to take long 2pters.

Prime KG ahead of Giannis all day.

Does Giannis even have a go to move? Dude is a freak athlete but doesn't have a set of moves he can go to...yet.

Giannis draws 4 defenders above the key to cut his lane. Garnet does not. He is not a better scorer and defenses defended him accordingly.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#58 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:26 am

Jiminy Glick wrote:We saw the second greatest modern postseason defense defend him effectively.

Kawhi did about as much as siakim. Giannis had 4 defenders leave the paint to cut off his drives and triple teamed him inside. Garnett has never played as good of a defense and is nowhere near the interior threat to warrant such defense and hence what the raptors did has no relevance to what garnett would be able to do.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#59 » by DatAsh » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:57 am

Jiminy Glick wrote:We saw that Leonard was able to limit Giannis, Garnett would probably be more effective especially on a good defensive team. If Giannis had a quality jumpshot he could be comparable to Garnett but he doesn't. Garnett plays within the flow of the offense better because of his good shooting ability.


I don't really think Leonard limited Giannis. The Raptors limited Giannis with a 4 man wall.
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Re: Current Giannis v Prime Garnett 

Post#60 » by drza » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:42 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Tracymcgoaty wrote:
Threetimes10 wrote:
How is KG the better scorer?




KG had everything on offense...Post moves midranger..People used to joke that if KG just took a step back he'd be hitting 3s instead of midrangers because he used to take long 2pters.

Prime KG ahead of Giannis all day.

Does Giannis even have a go to move? Dude is a freak athlete but doesn't have a set of moves he can go to...yet.

Giannis draws 4 defenders above the key to cut his lane. Garnet does not. He is not a better scorer and defenses defended him accordingly.


No time to wade fully into this debate (which is a fun one. Giannis is probably my favorite current player, and I've been beating the drum publicly for him as the best player in the NBA for a while now). But I keep seeing sentiments like this, and I felt like I should point out that Garnett was one of the most multiply-defended players of his generation. Shaq was on an island of his own as far as that goes, but live action I watched Garnett get doubled- and tripled as much as/more than pretty much anyone else.

This post is one example, from one playoffs series (Trail Blazers 2000) that I cobbled together from a couple of YouTube highlight vids that a Blazers fan had posted. Most of the game highlights are therefore of the Blazers doing well, but even in the handful of Wolves highlights there were several examples of Garnett getting triple-teamed anywhere from the post to the 3-point line. Essentially, wherever KG got the ball, the Blazers sent some combo of two 7-footers and Pippen at him.

https://hoopslab.rotowire.com/post/162584445996/2000-trail-blazers-defense-of-garnett

Anyway. Again, point wasn't to get too deep here, but it's absolutely not accurate to say that Garnett wasn't drawing HEAVY defensive attention the majority of the time, especially during his Timberwolves days.
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