Is it time to rethink how great Doctor J actually was?

[No-more-rings]

Dr J is more or less a consensus top 15 player all time or at worst, right outside of it. Is this warranted based on actual ability or is there some folklore to this? I find it very hard to compare players from the 60s and 70s to more modern superstars. The best comparison for a modern day guy would probably be Giannis, but shorter and perhaps a bit lankier too. I can’t see any reason to believe that Dr J was close to Giannis in defensive impact, and while he could kind of shoot he’s no Kevin Durant shooting the ball.

He wasn’t a terrific playmaker, he was maybe a little better than someone like Paul Pierce as a passer though i could be underrating him but he never averaged more than 5.5 apg and that was in the ABA. He wasn’t Bird or Lebron as a passer that’s for sure.

So on offense, from the footage i’ve seen he’s an athletic high flyer that takes it to the hole a lot, he was really good at it but how well would this hold up against a zone defense, or against great rim defense?

I don’t know. How well would a Dr J clone translate in today’s league? He’s listed at 6’7, but was he perhaps an inch or 2 taller? Would he be like a worse defensive version of Giannis, but with better handles, a little better shooting and more craftiness around the rim?

Again I don’t know how to rate his defense, he only made one defensive team in his career, so he evidently wasn’t thought super highly of, definitely not Pippen or even Lebron level.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

His stats drop hard from NBA to ABA despite only being 26 years old and he was just Moses Malone's sidekick. Definitely not as physically imposing as Giannis. I would say in the modern NBA he would be a rich man's Shawn Marion.

[JoeMalburg]

His stats drop hard from NBA to ABA despite only being 26 years old and he was just Moses Malone's sidekick. Definitely not as physically imposing as Giannis. I would say in the modern NBA he would be a rich man's Shawn Marion.

He was Moses sidekick for one season, 1982-83 and he was a sidekick the way peak Scottie Pippen or early Lakers Kobe was, he was an all-NBA first team player on that title team and still finished fifth in the MVP vote.

There are some pretty obvious reasons his stats dip when he moved from the Nets to the Sixers. For one he went from a team with only one other score first player to a team whose top four guys were all score first players. Second, his numbers didn't fall off at all if you measure them per possession. The ABA game was a faster-paced more wide open game. Finally, he didn't decline at all in terms of efficency. In fact his career TS% in the ABA and NBA are identical as are his ast% and to%.

What didn't change is that he was still considered an elite player. Erving was an all-NBA first team selection in five of his first seven NBA seasons. He finished in the top five in the MVP vote five times and the top three, three times. He won the league MVP at 31, so the idea that he began to decline at 26 is pretty clearly misleading.

It should also be noted that Erving was always on winning teams. His team never missed the playoffs and only lost in the first round three times in sixteen seasons. He won three Championships, went to six finals and nine semifinals and was his teams best player almost every time.

[Clyde Frazier]

Not this again

Any "people are romanticizing his career" talk just means you're lacking context for his career arc. And no, his stats didn't drop off dramatically because the competition got tougher. He was asked to play a different role with a team with more talent and when Cunningham came on as coach his stats were nearly identical per 100 to his 76 season.

[SHAQ32]

Underappreciated defensive player

[D.Brasco]

Dr J is more or less a consensus top 15 player all time or at worst, right outside of it. Is this warranted based on actual ability or is there some folklore to this? I find it very hard to compare players from the 60s and 70s to more modern superstars. The best comparison for a modern day guy would probably be Giannis, but shorter and perhaps a bit lankier too. I can’t see any reason to believe that Dr J was close to Giannis in defensive impact, and while he could kind of shoot he’s no Kevin Durant shooting the ball.

He wasn’t a terrific playmaker, he was maybe a little better than someone like Paul Pierce as a passer though i could be underrating him but he never averaged more than 5.5 apg and that was in the ABA. He wasn’t Bird or Lebron as a passer that’s for sure.

So on offense, from the footage i’ve seen he’s an athletic high flyer that takes it to the hole a lot, he was really good at it but how well would this hold up against a zone defense, or against great rim defense?

I don’t know. How well would a Dr J clone translate in today’s league? He’s listed at 6’7, but was he perhaps an inch or 2 taller? Would he be like a worse defensive version of Giannis, but with better handles, a little better shooting and more craftiness around the rim?

Again I don’t know how to rate his defense, he only made one defensive team in his career, so he evidently wasn’t thought super highly of, definitely not Pippen or even Lebron level.

What does this even mean?

He was about an inch taller than MJ if that. Not sure why you'd think he was 6'9"?



Either way as has already been mentioned he went to a talented team when he joined the NBA and didn't have to dominate like he did previously, it was a role not skill situation.

[Cavsfansince84]

Dr. J in the top 15 or so always seems right to me based on everything I've read, watched and learned of him as a player. Sidenote he was also playing in the first nba game I ever attended in 84. His low key bb iq also stands out a lot if you watch him play. I think he's in that 15-20 range with guys like KG, Dirk and others.

[No-more-rings]

Dr J is more or less a consensus top 15 player all time or at worst, right outside of it. Is this warranted based on actual ability or is there some folklore to this? I find it very hard to compare players from the 60s and 70s to more modern superstars. The best comparison for a modern day guy would probably be Giannis, but shorter and perhaps a bit lankier too. I can’t see any reason to believe that Dr J was close to Giannis in defensive impact, and while he could kind of shoot he’s no Kevin Durant shooting the ball.

He wasn’t a terrific playmaker, he was maybe a little better than someone like Paul Pierce as a passer though i could be underrating him but he never averaged more than 5.5 apg and that was in the ABA. He wasn’t Bird or Lebron as a passer that’s for sure.

So on offense, from the footage i’ve seen he’s an athletic high flyer that takes it to the hole a lot, he was really good at it but how well would this hold up against a zone defense, or against great rim defense?

I don’t know. How well would a Dr J clone translate in today’s league? He’s listed at 6’7, but was he perhaps an inch or 2 taller? Would he be like a worse defensive version of Giannis, but with better handles, a little better shooting and more craftiness around the rim?

Again I don’t know how to rate his defense, he only made one defensive team in his career, so he evidently wasn’t thought super highly of, definitely not Pippen or even Lebron level.

What does this even mean?

He was about an inch taller than MJ if that. Not sure why you'd think he was 6'9"?



Either way as has already been mentioned he went to a talented team when he joined the NBA and didn't have to dominate like he did previously, it was a role not skill situation.

I said perhaps meaning maybe, i am not an expert on players real height but i suppose you are?

As to your 2nd point that doesn’t address anything I wrote in my post. Nowhere did i say anything about his drop off of stats.

[Jiminy Glick]

Well I have players like Erving and Baylor in their primes over Kobe in his prime, much better team players in my opinion with much less of an ego. With that being said I have Pippen over Erving and Baylor. Though in Kobe's defense he came out of high school and went straight to the NBA and had a lot of success and media attention and money at a very young age just like LeBron did and both have huge egos. So the environment created that but you need to know how to prevent yourself from getting it and definitely need to know how to decrease the ego, also the coaches should have helped to fix that.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

His stats drop hard from NBA to ABA despite only being 26 years old and he was just Moses Malone's sidekick. Definitely not as physically imposing as Giannis. I would say in the modern NBA he would be a rich man's Shawn Marion.

He was Moses sidekick for one season, 1982-83 and he was a sidekick the way peak Scottie Pippen or early Lakers Kobe was, he was an all-NBA first team player on that title team and still finished fifth in the MVP vote.

There are some pretty obvious reasons his stats dip when he moved from the Nets to the Sixers. For one he went from a team with only one other score first player to a team whose top four guys were all score first players. Second, his numbers didn't fall off at all if you measure them per possession. The ABA game was a faster-paced more wide open game. Finally, he didn't decline at all in terms of efficency. In fact his career TS% in the ABA and NBA are identical as are his ast% and to%.

What didn't change is that he was still considered an elite player. Erving was an all-NBA first team selection in five of his first seven NBA seasons. He finished in the top five in the MVP vote five times and the top three, three times. He won the league MVP at 31, so the idea that he began to decline at 26 is pretty clearly misleading.

It should also be noted that Erving was always on winning teams. His team never missed the playoffs and only lost in the first round three times in sixteen seasons. He won three Championships, went to six finals and nine semifinals and was his teams best player almost every time.

ABA run he he had 32 and 30 PER, NBA run highest PER was 22.9.
ABA run he had an offensive rating of 128, NBA highest offensive rating was 114.

ABA he had stats of a superstar and NBA he had stats of a star. I'm not saying he declined but I'm saying his stats in ABA are misleading because he never showed he was capable of that in NBA.

[G35]

Not this again

Any "people are romanticizing his career" talk just means you're lacking context for his career arc. And no, his stats didn't drop off dramatically because the competition got tougher. He was asked to play a different role with a team with more talent and when Cunningham came on as coach his stats were nearly identical per 100 to his 76 season.

I hate when people only apply context to situations they feel like.

When Lebron's teams have their issues (and they do every time) all you ever hear is context, context, context. You hear that it takes time for the team to figure out how to play with each other.

That's exactly what happened with Dr. J when he was traded to the Sixers. The team had a lot of talent, but it did not fit well together. Those Sixers are an example of addition by subtraction; they got rid of McGinnis and Free and the team played better.

What people seem to fail to realize is that the Sixers were up against the Celtics and the Lakers every year. First they would have to beat the Celtics (which they did twice) and then they would have to beat the Lakers in the finals. This was Doc having to go up without any other bonafide stars on his team. Cheeks, Toney, Bobby Jones, Caldwell Jones, Darryl Dawkins were all good role players, very good role players. But none were stars.

He was going up against Bird/McHale/Parish/Dennis Johnson and then Kareem/Magic/Worthy/Nixon/Wilkes/Cooper.

This is like Lebron going up against the Warriors or the Spurs by himself without a Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love.

Show the man some respect, he was imo, a Lebron type talent who was able to go to the basket and finish like a Michael Jordan. When he wanted to take over, few could stop him. He was more of a team player, I would say his mentality was similar to a Tim Duncan in that he only took over when he had to, he just didn't have the same level of support that Magic and Bird had.......

[Johnlac1]

Underappreciated defensive player

Not great on-ball defense, but one of the rare players who could both block shots and get steals. Absolutely one of the greatest coast to coast players ever. Maybe the greatest.
Unstoppable in the open court. Again, one of the greatest open court players ever. Better shooter than Giannis, and could hit the corner three. He had a very effective otd bank shot from 10-15 feet. But since nobody could stop him going to the basket, that's what he mostly did.
MVP of the '77 all star game his first year in the NBA, and averaged 30 ppg in the finals including 40 in the elimination game. Definitely sublimated his scoring to fit in with McGinnis and Collins.
If he had been asked to score 30 ppg his first year in Philly, he could have done it no problem.

[ronnymac2]

Dr J is more or less a consensus top 15 player all time or at worst, right outside of it. Is this warranted based on actual ability or is there some folklore to this? I find it very hard to compare players from the 60s and 70s to more modern superstars. The best comparison for a modern day guy would probably be Giannis, but shorter and perhaps a bit lankier too. I can’t see any reason to believe that Dr J was close to Giannis in defensive impact, and while he could kind of shoot he’s no Kevin Durant shooting the ball.

He wasn’t a terrific playmaker, he was maybe a little better than someone like Paul Pierce as a passer though i could be underrating him but he never averaged more than 5.5 apg and that was in the ABA. He wasn’t Bird or Lebron as a passer that’s for sure.

So on offense, from the footage i’ve seen he’s an athletic high flyer that takes it to the hole a lot, he was really good at it but how well would this hold up against a zone defense, or against great rim defense?

I don’t know. How well would a Dr J clone translate in today’s league? He’s listed at 6’7, but was he perhaps an inch or 2 taller? Would he be like a worse defensive version of Giannis, but with better handles, a little better shooting and more craftiness around the rim?

Again I don’t know how to rate his defense, he only made one defensive team in his career, so he evidently wasn’t thought super highly of, definitely not Pippen or even Lebron level.

Your question/criticism isn't really about how he translated from the ABA to the NBA, but more about his actual on-court skillset. I get it. These are fair questions that I've had myself.

Here is my eye-test of Erving. He really didn't have reliable range on his jumper, and he wasn't all that accurate - certainly not close to a Kevin Durant. Yet he shot very high field goal percentages for a wing player. I mean, that sort of has to mean he was an elite scorer in the paint, right? From what I've seen, his ability to take contact and contort and finish the play is pretty ridiculous. Hang-time, Jordan-hands, body control...the guy appears on film to be all-time elite in this regard. He posted up and cut well (as most players did back then, such as Sidney Moncrief, Marques Johnson, Randy Smith, etc.). Offensive rebounds - the guy basically played the PF position in ABA, much like Elgin Baylor for the donut Laker team a decade prior - and feasted there with his athletic ability.

Also, his passing/playmaking was GREAT. Not Larry Bird or LeBron James level, but a level below that. Certainly better than a Kevin Durant. The volume assists weren't there because he didn't take on a lead guard role like LBJ, and also because he simply isn't as good as LBJ in that role as a forward, but basically nobody is.

Defensively, he never impressed me at all as a man defender. Average. But his shot-blocking and ball-hawking and defensive rebounding were strong points, especially back then when the paint was more clogged. To have a perimeter guy capable to helping out on the boards and protecting the rim was huge. Look at Philly's defensive ratings throughout much of Dr. J's NBA prime. He was a part of that defensive success.

Honestly, I think you're on the money with the Giannis comparison, at least stylistically. Edge to Giannis on defense since he can basically do anything Erving can, but offense is a little more debatable. Despite not being a great shooter, he was certainly better than Giannis, so in today's game, his jumper could keep the defense a bit more honest than Giannis's jumper does, and Erving I think was also superior as a passer imo. Giannis has gotten better at this and continues to improve, especially skip passes out of the post.

Offensively, it's definitely close...but I'll say this. Giannis was hampered by Toronto's size inside and athletic forwards. Check out Dr. J's stats against Denver in 1976 and Portland in 1977, and check out the defensive ratings and players of those teams. Consider there was no 3-point shooting. Erving will be seeing a different style of defense today for sure, but given what he actually did, I think it's reasonable to think he'd still perform at his superstar level today - comparable to Giannis, who is absolutely playing at an all-time level.

[Warspite]

Dr J is more or less a consensus top 15 player all time or at worst, right outside of it. Is this warranted based on actual ability or is there some folklore to this? I find it very hard to compare players from the 60s and 70s to more modern superstars. The best comparison for a modern day guy would probably be Giannis, but shorter and perhaps a bit lankier too. I can’t see any reason to believe that Dr J was close to Giannis in defensive impact, and while he could kind of shoot he’s no Kevin Durant shooting the ball.

He wasn’t a terrific playmaker, he was maybe a little better than someone like Paul Pierce as a passer though i could be underrating him but he never averaged more than 5.5 apg and that was in the ABA. He wasn’t Bird or Lebron as a passer that’s for sure.

So on offense, from the footage i’ve seen he’s an athletic high flyer that takes it to the hole a lot, he was really good at it but how well would this hold up against a zone defense, or against great rim defense?

I don’t know. How well would a Dr J clone translate in today’s league? He’s listed at 6’7, but was he perhaps an inch or 2 taller? Would he be like a worse defensive version of Giannis, but with better handles, a little better shooting and more craftiness around the rim?

Again I don’t know how to rate his defense, he only made one defensive team in his career, so he evidently wasn’t thought super highly of, definitely not Pippen or even Lebron level.

Imagine a bigger more athletic Kawhi with better defense who leads the NBA in scoring. That is DrJ.

[HeartBreakKid]

His stats drop hard from NBA to ABA despite only being 26 years old and he was just Moses Malone's sidekick. Definitely not as physically imposing as Giannis. I would say in the modern NBA he would be a rich man's Shawn Marion.

He was Moses sidekick for one season, 1982-83 and he was a sidekick the way peak Scottie Pippen or early Lakers Kobe was, he was an all-NBA first team player on that title team and still finished fifth in the MVP vote.

There are some pretty obvious reasons his stats dip when he moved from the Nets to the Sixers. For one he went from a team with only one other score first player to a team whose top four guys were all score first players. Second, his numbers didn't fall off at all if you measure them per possession. The ABA game was a faster-paced more wide open game. Finally, he didn't decline at all in terms of efficency. In fact his career TS% in the ABA and NBA are identical as are his ast% and to%.

What didn't change is that he was still considered an elite player. Erving was an all-NBA first team selection in five of his first seven NBA seasons. He finished in the top five in the MVP vote five times and the top three, three times. He won the league MVP at 31, so the idea that he began to decline at 26 is pretty clearly misleading.

It should also be noted that Erving was always on winning teams. His team never missed the playoffs and only lost in the first round three times in sixteen seasons. He won three Championships, went to six finals and nine semifinals and was his teams best player almost every time.

ABA run he he had 32 and 30 PER, NBA run highest PER was 22.9.
ABA run he had an offensive rating of 128, NBA highest offensive rating was 114.

ABA he had stats of a superstar and NBA he had stats of a star. I'm not saying he declined but I'm saying his stats in ABA are misleading because he never showed he was capable of that in NBA.

Not sure why you're just using PER. When contextualized his stats are the same thing as his ABA stats.

What about the ABA players who joined the NBA and were the same?

[HBK_Kliq_33]

He was Moses sidekick for one season, 1982-83 and he was a sidekick the way peak Scottie Pippen or early Lakers Kobe was, he was an all-NBA first team player on that title team and still finished fifth in the MVP vote.

There are some pretty obvious reasons his stats dip when he moved from the Nets to the Sixers. For one he went from a team with only one other score first player to a team whose top four guys were all score first players. Second, his numbers didn't fall off at all if you measure them per possession. The ABA game was a faster-paced more wide open game. Finally, he didn't decline at all in terms of efficency. In fact his career TS% in the ABA and NBA are identical as are his ast% and to%.

What didn't change is that he was still considered an elite player. Erving was an all-NBA first team selection in five of his first seven NBA seasons. He finished in the top five in the MVP vote five times and the top three, three times. He won the league MVP at 31, so the idea that he began to decline at 26 is pretty clearly misleading.

It should also be noted that Erving was always on winning teams. His team never missed the playoffs and only lost in the first round three times in sixteen seasons. He won three Championships, went to six finals and nine semifinals and was his teams best player almost every time.

ABA run he he had 32 and 30 PER, NBA run highest PER was 22.9.
ABA run he had an offensive rating of 128, NBA highest offensive rating was 114.

ABA he had stats of a superstar and NBA he had stats of a star. I'm not saying he declined but I'm saying his stats in ABA are misleading because he never showed he was capable of that in NBA.

Not sure why you're just using PER. When contextualized his stats are the same thing as his ABA stats.

What about the ABA players who joined the NBA and were the same?

All I'm saying is his scoring volume is lacking in his NBA run. I realize that's because lesser minutes but I guess julius just needed load management during his NBA run playing only 33-35 minutes and his stats suffer because of it. So what was he during his NBA run? He was a player with the scoring volume of Scottie Pippen but much worse defense, ball handling, playmaking, so overall a poor man's Scottie Pippen.

[70sFan]

ABA run he he had 32 and 30 PER, NBA run highest PER was 22.9.
ABA run he had an offensive rating of 128, NBA highest offensive rating was 114.

ABA he had stats of a superstar and NBA he had stats of a star. I'm not saying he declined but I'm saying his stats in ABA are misleading because he never showed he was capable of that in NBA.

Not sure why you're just using PER. When contextualized his stats are the same thing as his ABA stats.

What about the ABA players who joined the NBA and were the same?

All I'm saying is his scoring volume is lacking in his NBA run. I realize that's because lesser minutes but I guess julius just needed load management during his NBA run playing only 33-35 minutes and his stats suffer because of it. So what was he during his NBA run? He was a player with the scoring volume of Scottie Pippen but much worse defense, ball handling, playmaking, so overall a poor man's Scottie Pippen.

Julius averaged 24 ppg in playoffs during 1977-82 run. Scottie's career high is lower than that. Also, Julius wasn't worse ball-handler at all.

Outside of Philly series, Kawhi didn't show anything Julius couldn't do as far as scoring.

[70sFan]

Many great posts are already written in this thread. I want to say that Julius can be ranked below top 15, but anything below top 20 is just unfair to him. He was really good player, MVP candidate for a full decade.

[iggymcfrack]

Many great posts are already written in this thread. I want to say that Julius can be ranked below top 15, but anything below top 20 is just unfair to him. He was really good player, MVP candidate for a full decade.

19 players have an average PER in the NBA playoffs which is higher than Dr. J’s career high. If he struggled so much adjusting to a higher level of competition in the 70s, what does that say for how he’d look today? He’s basically just a shorter, less athletic, less skilled Giannis. Big time transition scorer who was decent in the halfcourt. I don’t see much argument for him over any of my 16-21 guys (Dirk, Stockton, Kobe, Mailman, Barkley, Bird).

[70sFan]

Many great posts are already written in this thread. I want to say that Julius can be ranked below top 15, but anything below top 20 is just unfair to him. He was really good player, MVP candidate for a full decade.

19 players have an average PER in the NBA playoffs which is higher than Dr. J’s career high. If he struggled so much adjusting to a higher level of competition in the 70s, what does that say for how he’d look today? He’s basically just a shorter, less athletic, less skilled Giannis. Big time transition scorer who was decent in the halfcourt. I don’t see much argument for him over any of my 16-21 guys (Dirk, Stockton, Kobe, Mailman, Barkley, Bird).

You again compare PER throughout the era which is meaningless.
He didn't struggle at all, he was second best player in the world in 1977-82 period.
He's not less athletic than Giannis and he was certainly more skilled than Giannis. Have you ever watched him in his prime?

I'm not surprised that you think he was less athletic than Giannis, you literally said that in 1987 finals nobody could dunk regulary.