All the talk of Kawhi lately has got me thinking

[Cavsfansince84]

That if the internet had been around in the 60's with modern ways of evaluating players that John Havlicek might be regarded much higher than he is now. Consider that if you look at the numbers he could be seen quite easily as the Celtics best player on their 68, 69 and 74 titles teams and really had a strong argument for winning at least 3 fmvps had the award always been around and gone to him in 69 as it usually does to a player on the winning team. Then consider that he was one of the few players who consistently made both all nba and all defensive 1st or 2nd teams during his prime years. Then on top of that you have him finishing his career with I believe 9 rings total and the other question of how good his rapm type data may have been. Plus how much he was respected by his peers for his intangibles and leadership. I think you could make a good argument that he was sort of the Kawhi Leonard of his day except he had even better accolades.

[penbeast0]

And 70, when Russell was gone, he was a year closer to his prime and pretty much all of the key personnel from his title team in 1969 were back. Havlicek led that team to 34 wins as the defensive rating fell from a consistent 1st in the league for the previous 13 years to below average. I think it's pretty clear who the Celtics key player was in 68 and 69 and it wasn't Havlicek.

Even on the 70s teams, Cowens was generally seen (and probably correctly) as the best player, not Havlicek. He was a very good player but he's more Klay Thompson than LeBron.

[Cavsfansince84]

And 70, when Russell was gone, he was a year closer to his prime and pretty much all of the key personnel from his title team in 1969 were back. Havlicek led that team to 34 wins as the defensive rating fell from a consistent 1st in the league for the previous 13 years to below average. I think it's pretty clear who the Celtics key player was in 68 and 69 and it wasn't Havlicek.

Even on the 70s teams, Cowens was generally seen (and probably correctly) as the best player, not Havlicek. He was a very good player but he's more Klay Thompson than LeBron.

tbf though, they also lost Jones and Howell seemed to be much worse in the next year. Then they also had a new coach and only dropped 14 wins total from the previous year. So while I agree losing Russell was a big loss and he still had an argument for being the team's best player in 68 and 69 I think there was also an argument to be made for Havlicek, especially given how good he was in the playoffs both years and how much of the offensive load he took up. He's also being compared to Kawhi here and not LeBron. Keep that in mind.

[70sFan]

Hondo has been always underrated on this board. I wouldn't go that far to call him better than Russell in 1968-69 period, but he was one of the best players in the league during his absolute prime (1967-74). I consider him clearly better offensive player than Pippen for example, he was like less ball-dominant Manu with great shooting and passing skills. Very good defender and unbelievable stamina, he could hustle all game.

He wasn't on LeBron level, that's true. Look at his 1974 PS run though - 27 ppg and 6 apg on very good efficiency for this era while playing 45 mpg. All of this against very good competition too. Then, consider that this run was nothing unusual for Hondo - he was always on that level in early 70s.

Hondo is underappreciated nowadays, he would be great in any era.

[Cavsfansince84]

Hondo has been always underrated on this board. I wouldn't go that far to call him better than Russell in 1968-69 period, but he was one of the best players in the league during his absolute prime (1967-74). I consider him clearly better offensive player than Pippen for example, he was like less ball-dominant Manu with great shooting and passing skills. Very good defender and unbelievable stamina, he could hustle all game.

He wasn't on LeBron level, that's true. Look at his 1974 PS run though - 27 ppg and 6 apg on very good efficiency for this era while playing 45 mpg. All of this against very good competition too. Then, consider that this run was nothing unusual for Hondo - he was always on that level in early 70s.

Hondo is underappreciated nowadays, he would be great in any era.

Good post but idk why I keep seeing LeBron being mentioned here. I mean LeBron is like top 3 all time in terms of prime, peak and playoff runs. I'm comparing him to Kawhi here guys. My greater point is that a lot of people saying Kawhi is already close to being top 30 or 40 all time based on having 2 fmvps and 2 dpoys despite having a prime that is maybe 4 seasons long while Hondo could easily have 3 fmvps, 9 rings and had great longevity. I feel like he is largely overlooked due to Russell getting a lot of credit to the point that maybe some of his teammates aren't getting their due credit.

[70sFan]

Hondo has been always underrated on this board. I wouldn't go that far to call him better than Russell in 1968-69 period, but he was one of the best players in the league during his absolute prime (1967-74). I consider him clearly better offensive player than Pippen for example, he was like less ball-dominant Manu with great shooting and passing skills. Very good defender and unbelievable stamina, he could hustle all game.

He wasn't on LeBron level, that's true. Look at his 1974 PS run though - 27 ppg and 6 apg on very good efficiency for this era while playing 45 mpg. All of this against very good competition too. Then, consider that this run was nothing unusual for Hondo - he was always on that level in early 70s.

Hondo is underappreciated nowadays, he would be great in any era.

Good post but idk why I keep seeing LeBron being mentioned here. I mean LeBron is like top 3 all time in terms of prime, peak and playoff runs. I'm comparing him to Kawhi here guys. My greater point is that a lot of people saying Kawhi is already close to being top 30 or 40 all time based on having 2 fmvps and 2 dpoys despite having a prime that is maybe 4 seasons long while Hondo could easily have 3 fmvps, 9 rings and had great longevity. I feel like he is largely overlooked due to Russell getting a lot of credit to the point that maybe some of his teammates aren't getting their due credit.

He has far better career than Kawhi so far, I agree. His peak wasn't as high but the gap isn't as big as some here believe. 1974 Havlicek wasn't that much worse than 2019 Kawhi both in RS and in the playoffs.

[No-more-rings]

Hondo has been always underrated on this board. I wouldn't go that far to call him better than Russell in 1968-69 period, but he was one of the best players in the league during his absolute prime (1967-74). I consider him clearly better offensive player than Pippen for example, he was like less ball-dominant Manu with great shooting and passing skills. Very good defender and unbelievable stamina, he could hustle all game.

He wasn't on LeBron level, that's true. Look at his 1974 PS run though - 27 ppg and 6 apg on very good efficiency for this era while playing 45 mpg. All of this against very good competition too. Then, consider that this run was nothing unusual for Hondo - he was always on that level in early 70s.

Hondo is underappreciated nowadays, he would be great in any era.

Calling Hondo a great shooter is hyperbole. Great shooters don’t shoot 49 ts% for their career.

[70sFan]

Hondo has been always underrated on this board. I wouldn't go that far to call him better than Russell in 1968-69 period, but he was one of the best players in the league during his absolute prime (1967-74). I consider him clearly better offensive player than Pippen for example, he was like less ball-dominant Manu with great shooting and passing skills. Very good defender and unbelievable stamina, he could hustle all game.

He wasn't on LeBron level, that's true. Look at his 1974 PS run though - 27 ppg and 6 apg on very good efficiency for this era while playing 45 mpg. All of this against very good competition too. Then, consider that this run was nothing unusual for Hondo - he was always on that level in early 70s.

Hondo is underappreciated nowadays, he would be great in any era.

Calling Hondo a great shooter is hyperbole. Great shooters don’t shoot 49 ts% for their career.

He was very good shooter who didn't have a three point line to improve his efficiency. He also greatly improved his efficiency in playoffs.

His TS% was above average in most of his prime years (late 60s and early 70s).

[penbeast0]

tbf though, they also lost Jones and Howell seemed to be much worse in the next year. Then they also had a new coach and only dropped 14 wins total from the previous year. So while I agree losing Russell was a big loss and he still had an argument for being the team's best player in 68 and 69 I think there was also an argument to be made for Havlicek, especially given how good he was in the playoffs both years and how much of the offensive load he took up. He's also being compared to Kawhi here and not LeBron. Keep that in mind.

Howell was worse, Don Nelson was appreciably better (Siegried was too) and the difference between 48-34 (with a title) and 34-48 (and missing the playoffs) is pretty significant. Havlicek's efficiency (TS%) was .459 in 1969 (.486 in 68), well below the league average of .491(.498 in 68) which is not a good thing for a guy whose offensive prowess is a large part of his value. That may be driven down a bit by playing for Boston but in 68 he's second to worst among their top 7 rotation guys and in 69 he is dead worst and their ridiculous pace of the early Boston offenses has dropped to about league average (7/12 and 5th/14) so that excuse is pretty much gone.

Therefore his main value would have to be defensive and Russell's retirement dropped the Celtics from best in league to below average. He was a very good defender, but not generally a game changer. I just see zero evidence that he is the best player on those Russell teams.

Even 2nd best is arguable in 68 (Sam Jones) or even 69 (Howell) as other players were better scorers depending on how good you think they were defensively (I have had people argue with me that Howell is a plus defender, I think he was a bit below average and prime Sam Jones more or less average). I like Hondo but none of his 60s years are even close to Kawhi's 2016, 2017, or 2019 season in value except maybe that he didn't take the constant rest days which is what people refer to when talking about Kawhi's value as he is still a young player in the early part of his prime (if he stays healthy).

Havlicek's peak 70s years are closer, he improved his offensive game considerably both shooting better and drawing more fouls as well as becoming a huge minutes eater. I'd still take any of the 3 Kawhi prime seasons over any season of Havlicek's on the court but Havlicek was also an outstanding person and leader as well as being a great example of never taking time off on the court so, as I said, the 70s are closer depending on how you value that.

[Cavsfansince84]

Therefore his main value would have to be defensive and Russell's retirement dropped the Celtics from best in league to below average. He was a very good defender, but not generally a game changer. I just see zero evidence that he is the best player on those Russell teams.

Even 2nd best is arguable in 68 (Sam Jones) or even 69 (Howell) as other players were better scorers depending on how good you think they were defensively (I have had people argue with me that Howell is a plus defender, I think he was a bit below average and prime Sam Jones more or less average). I like Hondo but none of his 60s years are even close to Kawhi's 2016, 2017, or 2019 season in value except maybe that he didn't take the constant rest days which is what people refer to when talking about Kawhi's value as he is still a young player in the early part of his prime (if he stays healthy).

Havlicek's peak 70s years are closer, he improved his offensive game considerably both shooting better and drawing more fouls as well as becoming a huge minutes eater. I'd still take any of the 3 Kawhi prime seasons over any season of Havlicek's on the court but Havlicek was also an outstanding person and leader as well as being a great example of never taking time off on the court so, as I said, the 70s are closer depending on how you value that.

At the same time though Havlicek had huge finals in both 68 and 69 which speaks to the sort of player he was. Much like Kawhi, he elevated his game when his team needed him to and the result was championships. So that's sort of my point here is we have a guy who was second team all nba both of those years and then perhaps deserved to be fmvp both of those years. That's pretty much what Kawhi just did though obviously he wasn't playing with a guy like Russell but Havlicek still deserves a lot of credit imo. He did a lot of things very well on top of being a very good scorer when he needed to be. I think at the heart of the Celtics dynasty was more than just Red or Russell. It was a very unique combination of guys who were not only talented but completely driven to win. Havlicek was a big time winner in college as well before becoming a Celtic.