Dirk or DWade?

[No-more-rings]

Argument, of course. Don't disagree with that.
But you are going in the one direction saying that the cases are strong, arguing with RAPM, when 2011 Dirk beats out all of Wade's RAPM scores. So I would say strong might be too strong of a word arguing with RAPM.

I have Dirk (11 for peak) in all 3 categories too, but for peak I would say 06, 09 and 10 Wade is close, and so is 03 and 06 Dirk (I know 03 is a little unconventional, but that year was freakin great. In my opinion hugely underrated, what a shame he got injured in the PO's).

RAPM can’t really be compared across seasons, and even if you wanted to one source had Wade’s 2010 nearly equal with Dirk’s 2011.

High level RAPM of his own + better box scores= strong argument to me.

The score is relative to league average and since the league average can vary a little you are right. But between 10 and 11 I don't think a lot happened so it should be reasonably comparable since it is the same methodology (both PI RAPM of JE).

But when you feel that way there is no sense in bringing it up in the first place since you brought up 3 Wade seasons to compare to Dirk. I just pointed out that Dirk still dominates these RAPM wise.

Adding other numbers of course is changing perspective.

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So let me start by saying that i don't believe RAPM/other impact metrics are gospel by any means, and the reason i brought it up in the first place is because the Clyde said something like he could at least see the argument for 09, which in reality all 3 of those seasons have a reasonable(if not strong, depending what you value) case even if it's disagreed upon. I've even heard a few mention Wade being better than Dirk in 2011, i don't think I'd go that far but it's certainly not farfetched. So what I'm saying is, if both players have a trend of doing great in RAPM i don't really see the need to split hairs with it. If one player is 1st, and the other is 3rd, it's time to start going to other things like their playoff performance, their actual production and what your eye is actually seeing.

If anything Dirk leading the league in RAPM by such a clear margin in 2011, may be more of an outlier result than it is because of him being so much better. If not much changed from 2010 to 2011 as you say, why did he fair significantly better in 2011? I don't think it's because he's a massively better player, but probably due to circumstances or the way the team relied on him, i honestly don't know. Dirk was also playing fewer minutes that year so i don't think it can be a direct comparison.

With that being said, i don't care to argue this that much, because the last time it happened the Wade vs Dirk sides got pretty ugly. But you have a few Mavs/ Dirk fans such as Texas Chuck and Pg81 that have even admitted Wade has a higher peak, and i've honestly never heard a good argument to why Dirk should win in peaks. Career, sure. But i'd like to know how Wade's massive ball handling/playmaking advantage always gets hand waived as not very important. Dirk's spacing helps make up some of that but not all of it imo. I'd rather save it for the peaks project even if i won't be voting, because then it may actually matter.

[Timmyyy]

RAPM can’t really be compared across seasons, and even if you wanted to one source had Wade’s 2010 nearly equal with Dirk’s 2011.

High level RAPM of his own + better box scores= strong argument to me.

The score is relative to league average and since the league average can vary a little you are right. But between 10 and 11 I don't think a lot happened so it should be reasonably comparable since it is the same methodology (both PI RAPM of JE).

But when you feel that way there is no sense in bringing it up in the first place since you brought up 3 Wade seasons to compare to Dirk. I just pointed out that Dirk still dominates these RAPM wise.

Adding other numbers of course is changing perspective.

Sent from my Moto G (5S) using RealGM mobile app

So let me start by saying that i don't believe RAPM/other impact metrics are gospel by any means, and the reason i brought it up in the first place is because the Clyde said something like he could at least see the argument for 09, which in reality all 3 of those seasons have a reasonable(if not strong, depending what you value) case even if it's disagreed upon. I've even heard a few mention Wade being better than Dirk in 2011, i don't think I'd go that far but it's certainly not farfetched. So what I'm saying is, if both players have a trend of doing great in RAPM i don't really see the need to split hairs with it. If one player is 1st, and the other is 3rd, it's time to start going to other things like their playoff performance, their actual production and what your eye is actually seeing.

If anything Dirk leading the league in RAPM by such a clear margin in 2011, may be more of an outlier result than it is because of him being so much better. If not much changed from 2010 to 2011 as you say, why did he fair significantly better in 2011? I don't think it's because he's a massively better player, but probably due to circumstances or the way the team relied on him, i honestly don't know. Dirk was also playing fewer minutes that year so i don't think it can be a direct comparison.

With that being said, i don't care to argue this that much, because the last time it happened the Wade vs Dirk sides got pretty ugly. But you have a few Mavs/ Dirk fans such as Texas Chuck and Pg81 that have even admitted Wade has a higher peak, and i've honestly never heard a good argument to why Dirk should win in peaks. Career, sure. But i'd like to know how Wade's massive ball handling/playmaking advantage always gets hand waived as not very important. Dirk's spacing helps make up some of that but not all of it imo. I'd rather save it for the peaks project even if i won't be voting, because then it may actually matter.

There is nothing to 'admit', that would mean one side would be wrong. In my eyes Dirk had the higher peak in your eyes it is Wade.

I didn't even argue with you about the peak comparison, just that your initial point was a little strange but I see you had a little more in your mind going on than what you wrote so now I see your points.

To Dirk in 10 vs 11, yes I think it was more circumstances. But I think Dirk was great in 10 too and the better team situation gave him an extra boost in 11. I do not quite understand why people always use 'he was the same player as the year before just better circumstances' as something negative. It is always used to talk seasons down, instead of seeing the seasons as separate seasons. It's positive for me to see guys reaching a new level in a better situation. They might not be different players but played at a different level, which is a clear separation to their worse version. I am more interested in how a guy does in good situations than in bad ones since the ultimate goal is winning.

To close this since we never seriously argued about the peaks and more in the philosophical side of things, I would say both guys are reasonably close, so it shouldn't be that hard to see the other sides points.

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[Roddy B for 3]

Dirk peaked against OKC in the '11 WCF. When did Wade ever have a series like that?

Dirk's MVP regular season year was also better than anything Wade did in the regular season.

Dirk was just more unique, more impactful and better.

Dirk was better in the '11 finals too. The entire Miami defense was set to stop Dirk. Everyone knew Dallas was going to get him the ball and he was a fourth quarter assassin. Wade was the second biggest threat the Dallas defense focused on and he couldn't carry his team to over the finish line.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Dirk peaked against OKC in the '11 WCF. When did Wade ever have a series like that?

Dirk's MVP regular season year was also better than anything Wade did in the regular season.

Dirk was just more unique, more impactful and better.

Dirk was better in the '11 finals too. The entire Miami defense was set to stop Dirk. Everyone knew Dallas was going to get him the ball and he was a fourth quarter assassin. Wade was the second biggest threat the Dallas defense focused on and he couldn't carry his team to over the finish line.

Wade averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks in the 06 finals and did it against the better team.

[Roddy B for 3]

Dirk peaked against OKC in the '11 WCF. When did Wade ever have a series like that?

Dirk's MVP regular season year was also better than anything Wade did in the regular season.

Dirk was just more unique, more impactful and better.

Dirk was better in the '11 finals too. The entire Miami defense was set to stop Dirk. Everyone knew Dallas was going to get him the ball and he was a fourth quarter assassin. Wade was the second biggest threat the Dallas defense focused on and he couldn't carry his team to over the finish line.

Wade averaged more points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks in the 06 finals and did it against the better team.

Touche.

I think that 2011 OKC team was better than the 2006 Mavericks.

[BBallFreak]

Wade for peak and prime, Dirk for career.

[kendogg]

Wade is easier to build around because he is a complete player. Peak Wade has no weaknesses. He was great at everything. Wade's only weakness is durability. So in that sense, you can put any type of players around him.

Dirk is a big man who can shoot and is a reliably great scorer and good defensive rebounder who had a long productive career. That is a pretty easy piece to build around as well. But Dirk was really only great at one thing, and that is scoring. Which is a pretty useful thing to be sure, but he's not the complete player Wade is. Not even close, to be honest. And I'm not saying that to put down Dirk. Wade peak is extremely high, like 2nd only to Jordan for SG's high.

[No-more-rings]

Dirk peaked against OKC in the '11 WCF. When did Wade ever have a series like that?

06 vs Pistons.

That wasn’t hard.

[BmanInBigD]

Wade is easier to build around because he is a complete player. Peak Wade has no weaknesses. He was great at everything. Wade's only weakness is durability. So in that sense, you can put any type of players around him.

Dirk is a big man who can shoot and is a reliably great scorer and good defensive rebounder who had a long productive career. That is a pretty easy piece to build around as well. But Dirk was really only great at one thing, and that is scoring. Which is a pretty useful thing to be sure, but he's not the complete player Wade is. Not even close, to be honest. And I'm not saying that to put down Dirk. Wade peak is extremely high, like 2nd only to Jordan for SG's high.

I guess people still don't get how a 7-footer who can score from ANYWHERE on the court makes it so much easier for everybody else on the team to score. You had to watch it game after game, year after year, to see the impact it had on the game. His man defense was only average or just above (even though he DID get a lot of strips, de facto blocks that didn't count as such), but his help D and rebounding were excellent, especially in the PS.

Dirk for prime and all-time, Wade for some of his outlandish peaks.

[No-more-rings]

Wade is easier to build around because he is a complete player. Peak Wade has no weaknesses. He was great at everything. Wade's only weakness is durability. So in that sense, you can put any type of players around him.

Dirk is a big man who can shoot and is a reliably great scorer and good defensive rebounder who had a long productive career. That is a pretty easy piece to build around as well. But Dirk was really only great at one thing, and that is scoring. Which is a pretty useful thing to be sure, but he's not the complete player Wade is. Not even close, to be honest. And I'm not saying that to put down Dirk. Wade peak is extremely high, like 2nd only to Jordan for SG's high.

I guess people still don't get how a 7-footer who can score from ANYWHERE on the court makes it so much easier for everybody else on the team to score. You had to watch it game after game, year after year, to see the impact it had on the game. His man defense was only average or just above (even though he DID get a lot of strips, de facto blocks that didn't count as such), but his help D and rebounding were excellent, especially in the PS.

Dirk for prime and all-time, Wade for some of his outlandish peaks.

Excellent help defense?

Can you back this up with video evidence?

[First Take]

As a unbiased fan, I have to go with 3x NBA Champion Dwayne Wade.

[goodboy]

no poll?