Peaks project update: #11

[Mavericksfan]

Forgot to include Kerr’s own comments

https://www.complex.com/sports/2016/08/steve-kerr-admits-warriors-changed-playoff-gameplan-steph-curry-injuries

“We didn’t hide anything," Kerr said. "If there had been a diagnosis, we would have told you. We don’t hide stuff like that. He was banged up. But that’s not an excuse. It’s not an injury; it’s just that the reality of the season and it kind of hit him at the wrong time, given that everything started in the playoffs and carried through."”

So while he’s reluctant to call it an injury he cleary states Curry wasnt 100% and it started in the playoffs.

I think it’s safe to say he was playing hurt and the eye test confirmed it.

[E-Balla]

We still have people arguing Curry was injured? Didn't I already debunk this like 2 threads ago? He had a grade 1 MCL sprain. That's a 1-2 week injury, look it up and look up the recovery times for players that had that injury. He sat out over 3 weeks, and the Finals was 2 months later. It's the NBA no one is as healthy as they were in October, that doesn't mean it's an excuse for their play. Curry was just as healthy as everyone else.

Like really just say you don't care about his bad performance, no need to lie and act like he was visibly hurt when he pretty clearly wasn't. He was healthy enough to keep getting up 11 3s a game, mostly off the bounce, at 40%. He was healthy enough to be the most efficient isolation player in the playoffs that year. He was healthy enough to average nearly the same (actually slightly higher) amount of miles run, and average speed in the playoffs as the regular season on both sides of the ball. I already posted his worst plays from game 7, all mental breakdowns, none physical. His injury wasn't affecting his ability to accurately aim behind the back passes, or not stare at Draymond for 3 seconds telegraphing his passes.

Outside of heresay and people assuming Curry is the most brittle player ever and took over 2 months to recover from a 1-2 week injury (sidebar: in 2018 he recovered from a severe grade 2 MCL sprain in less than that time) there's no argument he was still injured.

And if the argument is that he was rusty, the Finals started 24 days after he put up 40 against Portland. The man had a whole month of rust? Really?

I’d certainly trust Curry and Kerr’s own statements over yours. You also have a poor understanding of injuries if you think people always automatically heal 100% within a given timeframe.

Curry himself said he wasnt 100%.

Name me a single player that's ever been 100% after playing basketball damn near every other night for 9 months, practicing all the time, and traveling constantly? This it's just a dumb point to make, Curry in that same sentence said it didn't matter. His GM said he wasn't injured. His own coach said his injury didn't matter. No one is 100% by the time the Finals come around.

Curry being one of the most “brittle” athletes isnt exactly a poor argument considers how often he was hurt prior to that season as well. It’s why his contract was small enough to allow Durant to sign in the first place.

In that case he takes the same hot Walton does. The best ability is availability.

From Curry himself “I wasn't 100 percent, but who cares?”

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/warriors-stephen-curry-on-the-finals-i-wasnt-100-percent-but-who-cares/

Then you look at his ridiculous drop in shooting % from 0-3 feet in the playoffs that year. He shot 54% that year which is much lower than any other year. It was minus 15!!! from his regular season average.

You can ignore that all you want but I think he was hurt. Although it’s still no excuse for his poor play.

Curry was 58% from 0-3 in 2017 too with KD on his team. He was hurt then too?

Maybe it has to do with regular and postseason defenses having different quality? Maybe it has to do with Curry not being a particularly great finisher? You telling me you're shocked this guy:

Watch on YouTube

Wasn't super efficient at the rim?

[E-Balla]

Forgot to include Kerr’s own comments

https://www.complex.com/sports/2016/08/steve-kerr-admits-warriors-changed-playoff-gameplan-steph-curry-injuries

“We didn’t hide anything," Kerr said. "If there had been a diagnosis, we would have told you. We don’t hide stuff like that. He was banged up. But that’s not an excuse. It’s not an injury; it’s just that the reality of the season and it kind of hit him at the wrong time, given that everything started in the playoffs and carried through."”

So while he’s reluctant to call it an injury he cleary states Curry wasnt 100% and it started in the playoffs.

I think it’s safe to say he was playing hurt and the eye test confirmed it.

Again NO ONE IS 100% IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's really just a bad argument and I'll post those plays again, you tell me how injuries excuse any of this happening in a key game 7?

https://streamable.com/j4ny
https://streamable.com/o3cz
https://streamable.com/sbco
https://streamable.com/xuxh
https://streamable.com/mw98

I've been saying he had those exact flaws all 2015 and 2016 before the Finals even happened. If Curry played well in the Finals no one in this thread would argue "he played so great even while hurt".

[Mavericksfan]

We still have people arguing Curry was injured? Didn't I already debunk this like 2 threads ago? He had a grade 1 MCL sprain. That's a 1-2 week injury, look it up and look up the recovery times for players that had that injury. He sat out over 3 weeks, and the Finals was 2 months later. It's the NBA no one is as healthy as they were in October, that doesn't mean it's an excuse for their play. Curry was just as healthy as everyone else.

Like really just say you don't care about his bad performance, no need to lie and act like he was visibly hurt when he pretty clearly wasn't. He was healthy enough to keep getting up 11 3s a game, mostly off the bounce, at 40%. He was healthy enough to be the most efficient isolation player in the playoffs that year. He was healthy enough to average nearly the same (actually slightly higher) amount of miles run, and average speed in the playoffs as the regular season on both sides of the ball. I already posted his worst plays from game 7, all mental breakdowns, none physical. His injury wasn't affecting his ability to accurately aim behind the back passes, or not stare at Draymond for 3 seconds telegraphing his passes.

Outside of heresay and people assuming Curry is the most brittle player ever and took over 2 months to recover from a 1-2 week injury (sidebar: in 2018 he recovered from a severe grade 2 MCL sprain in less than that time) there's no argument he was still injured.

And if the argument is that he was rusty, the Finals started 24 days after he put up 40 against Portland. The man had a whole month of rust? Really?

I’d certainly trust Curry and Kerr’s own statements over yours. You also have a poor understanding of injuries if you think people always automatically heal 100% within a given timeframe.

Curry himself said he wasnt 100%.

Name me a single player that's ever been 100% after playing basketball damn near every other night for 9 months, practicing all the time, and traveling constantly? This it's just a dumb point to make, Curry in that same sentence said it didn't matter. His GM said he wasn't injured. His own coach said his injury didn't matter. No one is 100% by the time the Finals come around.

Curry being one of the most “brittle” athletes isnt exactly a poor argument considers how often he was hurt prior to that season as well. It’s why his contract was small enough to allow Durant to sign in the first place.

In that case he takes the same hot Walton does. The best ability is availability.

From Curry himself “I wasn't 100 percent, but who cares?”

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/warriors-stephen-curry-on-the-finals-i-wasnt-100-percent-but-who-cares/

Then you look at his ridiculous drop in shooting % from 0-3 feet in the playoffs that year. He shot 54% that year which is much lower than any other year. It was minus 15!!! from his regular season average.

You can ignore that all you want but I think he was hurt. Although it’s still no excuse for his poor play.

Curry was 58% from 0-3 in 2017 too with KD on his team. He was hurt then too?

Maybe it has to do with regular and postseason defenses having different quality? Maybe it has to do with Curry not being a particularly great finisher? You telling me you're shocked this guy:

Watch on YouTube

Wasn't super efficient at the rim?

Curry’s drop in %s at the rim in 2017 was only 6%. Far cry from 15%.

But yes, Curry’s 2016 season does get the Walton treatment for me. Tbh it’s penalized even more because being hurt during the playoffs is the worse possible thing where every game matters.

And please take a look at the quote from Kerr as well. Curry was hurt, I agree that most players have something wrong at that point but we know what Curry’s ailment was. It was a death sentence for an already underwhelming athlete without size(well it would be normally but his shot carried him).

Like I said, no excuses from me and I do agree that 2016 Curry would be too high. Just disputing your claim that you “debunked” he was injured.

[Mavericksfan]

Again NO ONE IS 100% IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's really just a bad argument and I'll post those plays again, you tell me how injuries excuse any of this happening in a key game 7?

https://streamable.com/j4ny
https://streamable.com/o3cz
https://streamable.com/sbco
https://streamable.com/xuxh
https://streamable.com/mw98

I've been saying he had those exact flaws all 2015 and 2016 before the Finals even happened. If Curry played well in the Finals no one in this thread would argue "he played so great even while hurt".

I’m not quite sure what your point here is. Are you aware that’s it’s possible for Curry to make mistakes and be injured simultaneously? Even looking at most of those he’s clearly lacking any semblance of quickness with or without the ball. But he still makes poor decisions.

I’m not defending his decision making or poor play. I’m just saying he was also hurt and despite any/all evidence you seem hell bent on disputing that.

[E-Balla]

Curry’s drop in %s at the rim in 2017 was only 6%. Far cry from 15%.

Is varience not a thing in your world? You think if somehow we could restart the 2016 season with all the same players in that form biologically but in 2019 the year would play out exactly the same down to the last shot? Of course not. For guys that have so few attempts at the rim the truth is their high FG% from 0-3 has more to do with how often (or how little to be more accurate) they're contested at the rim along with a healthy amount of margin of error. If Curry in the regular season only attempts layups when he's pretty open of course his FG% will be super high ala old man Nash and CP3.

So let's do some number crunching real quick here on 2016 vs 2017 looking at shots within 10 feet of the basket with a defender within 4 feet of him:

2016 RS: 221/353 for 62.6%
2016 PS: 36/63 for 57.1%

2017 RS: 178/277 for 64.3%
2017 PS: 33/55 for 60.0%

The real gap in why his FG% from 0-3 plummeted so much is because Curry in the 2016 postseason only took 13 open shots at the rim. He did shoot a lower percentage on them than in the regular season but equalizing the percentages would only mean he'd make 2 more shots inside of 10 feet. Outside of that his FG% drop in 2016 is pretty similar to his drop in 2017. I'm sure if we remove the game he DID play injured against Houston it's probably even closer to the drop in 2017.

I’m not quite sure what your point here is. Are you aware that’s it’s possible for Curry to make mistakes and be injured simultaneously?

That his bad play had nothing to do with any sort of physical limitations and everything to do with his game having legitimate issues. Look at this from my perspective, from 2015 all the way until before the 2016 Finals I've been on this site constantly arguing that while Steph is the best player in the league (which I believed at the time - it wasn't until the 2016 Finals that I conceded LeBron was clearly better and all my doubts were 100% accurate) he wasn't anything special outside of his 3 point shooting. He wasn't a great finisher at all, just a high percentage one because he was picky with his spots and guys HAD to play his jumper first, second, and last. His decision making, vision, and passing ability was poor for a PG and his biggest reason for improvement in 2016 was that Kerr moved him to SG which is his natural position and gave PG duties to Draymond. He's weak on defense. His handles are extremely flashy but some of the sloppiest handles among PGs.

When Curry plays well I have to constantly hear about how none of those things are true, and through the playoffs I'm hearing the same. Then the Finals happens and as you can see in those clips all those weaknesses are front and center. Richard Jefferson just ripping those sloppy handles. Horrible shot selection and complaining about a missed non call (because it doesn't looks like JR touched him) while they get an easy bucket. Stupid behind the back passes for no reason to an open Klay. Horrible telegraphing of his passes and general PNR misplays. All series long similar things happen. Then everyone that used the Portland and OKC series as proof that I was hating when I said he has all those weaknesses are now saying the only reason those weaknesses were front and center in the Finals for a second straight year is because of a mild MCL sprain he had 2 months ago. It's absurd. People instead of reevaluating what they originally believed would rather lie to themselves and claim a 1-2 week injury 2 months before is why he showed the weaknesses me and other posters have said he's always had. Then we can't look at other seasons as proof of the same level of play in the postseason because "he was better in 2016" so his performance in those other seasons is obviously lower than his healthy performance would've been in 2016 specifically. What was he better at? IDK, I've asked around, got no answers. But nope he was better just because he has to be for the narrative of his injury explaining that performance to hold up. Sure his 2016 postseason is inline with his production in 2015 and 2019 when he was perfectly healthy but obviously the improvements he made in [?] were offset by his injury in 2016 just enough to magically make him play just like he did in 2015 and 2019.

See how some people can be skeptical here?

Even looking at most of those he’s clearly lacking any semblance of quickness with or without the ball.

... You can't be serious... He looked pretty **** quick making JR fall for that pump fake. He looks pretty **** quick here:

Watch on YouTube

Off topic but I want to mention I chuckled when I saw the first 3 plays were literally Curry killing KD (in the series where he played the best defense he ever played in his life) off his quickness alone. He wasn't laboring in the least bit is my main point though and he was just as quick as a player as exhausted as he must've been by that point of the season should be.

I’m not defending his decision making or poor play. I’m just saying he was also hurt and despite any/all evidence you seem hell bent on disputing that.

Because there's literally no evidence. We've been through this. You're finding quotes where Curry and Kerr are saying he wasn't 100%. And? Again who is? Every NBA player will let you know they weren't 100% in the Finals. LeBron month 2 of the season is in better condition than LeBron in the Finals. That's every sport, every player. The more you play, the more you wear, and Curry didn't have any more wear and tear than should be expected for a player coming off playing 191 NBA games in a 582 day stretch from the start of the 2015 season to the start of the 2016 Finals. He wasn't 100% is an argument that can be made for any bad Finals performance ever, that's why most people go off whether a player was injured or not, these guys are all banged up. You think (for example) Kobe wasn't just as banged up in the playoffs in 01 coming off missing 10 games in the 30 days prior?

[E-Balla]

He does have the 2017 season which imo should be considered his best overall.

Anchored the best team ever and his play improved in the playoffs.

Not gonna give him the same amount of credit as guys like I mentioned when he played with 1) a former MVP and the MVP favorite that year till his injury 2) the second greatest shooter of all time who sometimes detonates bigger than Curry himself does 3) a DPoY who is basically a point guard at PF and 4) a former Finals MVP.

Very different putting up pretty stats in a situation like that and what, for example, Dirk did in 2011. 2017 Warriors are the GOAT team no doubt but none of the players get too much credit because it's so divided.

If that’s the case I’m assuming Magic/Bird are further down your lists considering how stacked their teams were.

All the impact metrics we have point to Curry being the driving force behind that team. His combination of shooting and playmaking is rivaled by only Bird. Even when he misses games they struggle way more than when any other member is gone.

Their teams had another MVP, the best defender of their generation, the best defensive wing of their generation, and the 2nd best shooter/an undeniable top 20 player in the league on it? Can we stop acting like ANYONE has played on a team as stacked as the 2017 Warriors? They're the GOAT team for a reason and it's not that Curry is the GOAT (as we can tell from the fact that he got zero first place votes).

Man I was gonna make my Ewing/Robinson post today too but it looks like Curry is going to be the hot topic for now. I'll try to get it in here, and if I do make the post I'll probably slow up on entertaining these arguments we're seeing for Curry because they're kind of absurd. Not to get political but this is like during the last debates where they had the Medicare For All argument. I can see the case against it just fine myself, but the argument they went with was "people won't keep being able to choose their healthcare provider they chose and love" as if anyone actually likes their healthcare provider. Like I can imagine a compelling argument for Curry, I might put him under players you guys don't but that's because we all see the game a little different and a difference in opinions isn't a big deal. The issue is the arguments for him have been to ignore what everyone against him is saying, or address them by saying he had a phantom injury. It's just not a good case you guys are making here.

[Timmyyy]

Just curious, because it is such a huge discussion.

Is it making a difference for you guys if Curry in 16 was/wasn't hurt for this project? I mean, he played considerably worse than in the RS when he played. Does it matter for you if it was because he was hurt or just because he had a rough stretch, came back down to earth or whatever?

Just asking because I don't care about it at all. He had a historic RS and followed it up with considerably worse PO's while also missing games in the PO's.

I can understand that you want to analyze 'the player' he was, but in the end this is a peak season project and matter of fact is that the season overall is clearly worse than just his RS.

I have to admit that I didn't follow the whole discussion but another thing that confuses me is that you both do not seem to think that 16 is even his best season, but I guess I just missed the context. Your takes on the first part of my post on the other hand would be interesting for me from a philosophical standpoint.

[E-Balla]

2nd ballot - '95 David Robinson
Don't know if this is a "dark-horse" pick for many at this stage, but the near-reality as I see is that David Robinson was asked [by the Spurs] to be Bill Russell on defense and simultaneously be Shaquille O'Neal on offense.......and he kinda takes some flack for not being up to the task [primarily in the playoffs]. But realistically, if he'd been consistently capable of maintaining his rs standard of offensive performance and efficiency during the playoffs, we'd have been discussing him in the top 3 positions of this project. So I don't think it's off base to give him some consideration now around #10.

But the biggest criticism of Robinson's whole career is specifically that he COULDN'T produce on that level both offensively as the primary option and defensively as the anchor in series when the going got tough. That his regular season level of play was only sustained because he beat up on weak teams but against teams that were both talented and trying their hardest he couldn't perform.

The regular season, as you all know, doesn't really matter to me as much as the postseason IF whatever postseason failure is a result of defects in the game of the person we're talking about. I want to know why even with those major weaknesses you're placing him over guys like Dwyane Wade, Kobe, and at his own position Moses Malone? I mean all 3 of these guys were not only strong defenders but they were also true #1s for champions and champion level squads. If Robinson has an argument based off his total impact and how much he'd impact the game hypothetically with someone else to lead the offense, how highly are you rating Draymond, Dwight, Zo, and other guys who are undeniably better defenders than him while still being top tier defensive anchors?

[Mavericksfan]

Is varience not a thing in your world? You think if somehow we could restart the 2016 season with all the same players in that form biologically but in 2019 the year would play out exactly the same down to the last shot?

This is cute. Of course not, but we have way more than one season of both regular season AND playoff data showing Curry us far from a 54% shooter at the rim. I’d say a 15% drop is much more of an outlier than normal variance when comparing it to his other seasons.

So let's do some number crunching real quick here on 2016 vs 2017 looking at shots within 10 feet of the basket with a defender within 4 feet of him:

I find this a bit odd. The discussion was about shots at the rim (0-3 feet) and you switched it to within 10 feet. But I’ll entertain you.

The real gap in why his FG% from 0-3 plummeted so much is because Curry in the 2016 postseason only took 13 open shots at the rim. He did shoot a lower percentage on them than in the regular season but equalizing the percentages would only mean he'd make 2 more shots inside of 10 feet. Outside of that his FG% drop in 2016 is pretty similar to his drop in 2017. I'm sure if we remove the game he DID play injured against Houston it's probably even closer to the drop in 2017.

Where are you getting this data? NBA.com only separates shots further than 10 feet.

That his bad play had nothing to do with any sort of physical limitations and everything to do with his game having legitimate issues. Look at this from my perspective,

I think this is actually part of the issue. You have an opinion of Curry you’ve been arguing for awhile and you’re submitting to confirmation bias to prove it. I think you make some valid points about Curry, others I disagree with. I’m not sure why you’re acting as if him being injured invalidates all of your criticisms.

Then everyone that used the Portland and OKC series as proof that I was hating when I said he has all those weaknesses are now saying the only reason those weaknesses were front and center in the Finals for a second straight year is because of a mild MCL sprain he had 2 months ago. It's absurd.

Here’s your issue. You’re still arguing with ghosts from your past. I think you’ve made some valid points but you wildly exaggerate others. And you call it absurd yet Curry and Kerr both admit it. Injuries are not black and white. There’s no telling if he never healed fully or if he retweaked it. All we know is both of them admit he was playing hurt

What was he better at? IDK, I've asked around, got no answers. But nope he was better just because he has to be for the narrative of his injury explaining that performance to hold up. Sure his 2016 postseason is inline with his production in 2015 and 2019 when he was perfectly healthy but obviously the improvements he made in [?] were offset by his injury in 2016 just enough to magically make him play just like he did in 2015 and 2019.

I think he was just fine in 2015 and 2019 so I’m not sure the point you’re making. His play in 16 and 18 were the biggest drop offs and guess what? Both coincided with lower body injuries

Off topic but I want to mention I chuckled when I saw the first 3 plays were literally Curry killing KD (in the series where he played the best defense he ever played in his life) off his quickness alone. He wasn't laboring in the least bit is my main point though and he was just as quick as a player as exhausted as he must've been by that point of the season should be.

So I dont think he was “laboring” as you put it. It’s hard to quantify how injured a player is. I think he was completely worn down from a combination of the Thunder series, his injury, and the Cavs series. Once again nothing to excuse his poor play. But I dont think he was his usual self in those Finals. He didnt even attack Kyrie/RJ in isolation situations despite them being mediocre defenders. He struggled turning the corner on pick n rolls.

Because there's literally no evidence. We've been through this. You think (for example) Kobe wasn't just as banged up in the playoffs in 01 coming off missing 10 games in the 30 days prior?

I’m sure Kobe was and that’s a testament to his durability to be able to play through injuries. I value durability as a positive. Curry’s will always be a question mark. You’re acting as if Curry was healthy the entire time and never was hurt. We witnessed the injury, we have quotes from the player and his coach saying it affected him. We have data showing he had an outlier performance at the rim. What more evidence do you want?

[E-Balla]

Just curious, because it is such a huge discussion.

Is it making a difference for you guys if Curry in 16 was/wasn't hurt for this project? I mean, he played considerably worse than in the RS when he played. Does it matter for you if it was because he was hurt or just because he had a rough stretch, came back down to earth or whatever?

Just asking because I don't care about it at all. He had a historic RS and followed it up with considerably worse PO's while also missing games in the PO's.

I can understand that you want to analyze 'the player' he was, but in the end this is a peak season project and matter of fact is that the season overall is clearly worse than just his RS.

I have to admit that I didn't follow the whole discussion but another thing that confuses me is that you both do not seem to think that 16 is even his best season, but I guess I just missed the context. Your takes on the first part of my post on the other hand would be interesting for me from a philosophical standpoint.

I'm mostly just annoyed people keep trying to use that argument when it should've died after the piles of evidence I've posted to show he wasn't injured. Beyond that I understand tons of guys around here don't really care about the postseason performance when making their lists.

[Mavericksfan]

Just curious, because it is such a huge discussion.

Is it making a difference for you guys if Curry in 16 was/wasn't hurt for this project? I mean, he played considerably worse than in the RS when he played. Does it matter for you if it was because he was hurt or just because he had a rough stretch, came back down to earth or whatever?

Just asking because I don't care about it at all. He had a historic RS and followed it up with considerably worse PO's while also missing games in the PO's.

I can understand that you want to analyze 'the player' he was, but in the end this is a peak season project and matter of fact is that the season overall is clearly worse than just his RS.

I have to admit that I didn't follow the whole discussion but another thing that confuses me is that you both do not seem to think that 16 is even his best season, but I guess I just missed the context. Your takes on the first part of my post on the other hand would be interesting for me from a philosophical standpoint.

My only issue with his stance is that he’s trying to use 2016 to highlight all of Curry’s weaknesses and pretend he hasnt improved at all.

I actually value 2017 higher. I’m just not a fan baseless claims like Curry’s “sloppy handles” or poor PNR ability.

That said I’ll drop it. Like you said it’s not really that important and takes away from the discussion of others.

[E-Balla]

I find this a bit odd. The discussion was about shots at the rim (0-3 feet) and you switched it to within 10 feet. But I’ll entertain you.

Well that's what the NBA tracks and it's still relevant I'd think.

Where are you getting this data? NBA.com only separates shots further than 10 feet.

If you have total shots and shots over 10 feet simple subtraction will find you the numbers for shots under 10 feet.

I think this is actually part of the issue. You have an opinion of Curry you’ve been arguing for awhile and you’re submitting to confirmation bias to prove it. I think you make some valid points about Curry, others I disagree with. I’m not sure why you’re acting as if him being injured invalidates all of your criticisms.

The gap here is my opinion is consistent with reality. The argument he was injured isn't. The argument he was just "better" in 2016 minus the "injury" than 2015 and 2019 isn't until I see someone actually tell me how he got better. I've given plenty of examples of the types of arguments I've asked people to make to possibly see their side. If you think Curry improved from 2015 to 2016, why do you think that and in what ways did he improve? It's been almost 4 years with no answer. If you think Curry was injured, where's the proof? Find me an example of a player taking 2 months to recover from a grade 1 MCL sprain?

I'd be submitting to confirmation bias if I saw good arguments against my opinion and chose to ignore them. I haven't. Like you decided to parse this out and comment on it, but you haven't given me any real reason to believe that Curry was injured or that he got better. You're just pulling quotes from people saying he wasn't 100% as if I said he was 100% when what I've been saying is that no one is 100% in June.

Here’s your issue. You’re still arguing with ghosts from your past. I think you’ve made some valid points but you wildly exaggerate others. And you call it absurd yet Curry and Kerr both admit it. Injuries are not black and white. There’s no telling if he never healed fully or if he retweaked it. All we know is both of them admit he was playing hurt

And this is when you ignore for the 5 millionth time that no player is 100% in June. You're saying I'm ignoring their comments that he wasn't 100% but I haven't. I've responded by saying no one is. If your argument is that he wasn't 100%, that argument applies to the postseason performance of everyone we're going to vote into this top 50. All of Kerr, Myers, and Curry have all said the injury didn't matter. I'm guessing that's because they know, like everyone else does, all players are playing hurt and under 100% in June.

I think he was just fine in 2015 and 2019 so I’m not sure the point you’re making. His play in 16 and 18 were the biggest drop offs and guess what? Both coincided with lower body injuries

Umm... He was just fine, but was he 11th best player level or anywhere near it? Nope. For that in a vacuum he was just fine in 2016, so why all the excuses?

Seriously I've asked multiple times what improvements he made in 2016 compared to 2015. If you said in response to that question, "I think him playing at the level he did in both the 2015 and 2016 playoffs is sufficient for ranking him 11th," I would have nothing to say to that. We'd have to agree to disagree. Instead what's being said is, "Curry was better in 2016 and only played at a similar level to the 2015 playoffs because he was hurt." So CLEARLY his level of play wasn't "just fine" for this ranking.

And it's funny you mention 2018 because that year he had a grade 2 MCL sprain in his first game back from a knee injury, missed a little over 1 month of action (with the Warriors sitting him the whole first round) and he came back noticeably rusty but not at all injured. Off the same type of sprain but more severe and with more injuries outside of the sprain all year long.

In the first 6 games Steph came back he averaged 22/5.7/4.8 on 59.6 TS% with a 107 ORTG. After that he averaged 27.9/6.3/5.8 on 58.6 TS% with a 116 ORTG. So Steph in 2018 recovered from a grade 2 MCL sprain after a whole season dealing with injuries in the time you're telling me wasn't enough to recover from a grade 1 sprain. Totally.

So I dont think he was “laboring” as you put it. It’s hard to quantify how injured a player is. I think he was completely worn down from a combination of the Thunder series, his injury, and the Cavs series. Once again nothing to excuse his poor play. But I dont think he was his usual self in those Finals. He didnt even attack Kyrie/RJ in isolation situations despite them being mediocre defenders. He struggled turning the corner on pick n rolls.

So wait, now the argument is that Curry had an ordinary amount of wear and tear? You're literally saying what I'm saying.

And to him not attacking Kyrie and RJ, he didn't do that in 2015 (game 1) or 2017 either because Curry doesn't attack Gs in isolation commonly. That's not his game at all. He's not super athletic and he doesn't have the sharpest handles, why would he try to attack 2 guys with quick feet off the bounce? And if you feel I'm misremembering:

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

6 games, 7 isolation buckets (not far off his regular season numbers, he averaged about 1 iso bucket a game in 2016), 3 on Kevin Love, 3 on Tristan Thompson, and 1 on Kyrie where Kyrie completely locked him up and he hit a good shot. This is back to my central point of this whole thing, instead of admitting Curry has weaknesses you're imagining non existent parts of his game and saying he couldn't utilize them. He was "healthy" in 2015 and 2017 and didn't beat Kyrie or RJ in isolation once in 6 games and I'm willing to bet he didn't even try to do it often because why would he? He needs a screen to get separation unless it's a mismatch. Always had.

To what you said about PNRs turning the corner wasn't his issue most times. I mean no one will turn the corner every time, but even when he did he turned the ball over with some bewildering passes. I posted the numbers already he turned the ball over on about a quarter of his PNR possessions in the 2016 postseason. That was his biggest issue, bad decision making (I'm not willing to go possession to possession to count all his blown possessions in the 2016 playoffs to make 100% sure right now though - I did this for the isolations only because I knew I'd find either no or only a few isolation scores from Curry against anyone outside of Love and TT).

I’m sure Kobe was and that’s a testament to his durability to be able to play through injuries. I value durability as a positive. Curry’s will always be a question mark. You’re acting as if Curry was healthy the entire time and never was hurt. We witnessed the injury, we have quotes from the player and his coach saying it affected him. We have data showing he had an outlier performance at the rim. What more evidence do you want?

I think your issue here is you're either under the delusion that everyone is healthy in the playoffs or that a grade 1 MCL sprain is a serious injury. Like I said 500 times before no one is 100% in the playoffs. It's just not a thing. Part of what makes a player good is the ability to not let that affect them.

[E-Balla]

Just curious, because it is such a huge discussion.

Is it making a difference for you guys if Curry in 16 was/wasn't hurt for this project? I mean, he played considerably worse than in the RS when he played. Does it matter for you if it was because he was hurt or just because he had a rough stretch, came back down to earth or whatever?

Just asking because I don't care about it at all. He had a historic RS and followed it up with considerably worse PO's while also missing games in the PO's.

I can understand that you want to analyze 'the player' he was, but in the end this is a peak season project and matter of fact is that the season overall is clearly worse than just his RS.

I have to admit that I didn't follow the whole discussion but another thing that confuses me is that you both do not seem to think that 16 is even his best season, but I guess I just missed the context. Your takes on the first part of my post on the other hand would be interesting for me from a philosophical standpoint.

My only issue with his stance is that he’s trying to use 2016 to highlight all of Curry’s weaknesses and pretend he hasnt improved at all.

I actually value 2017 higher. I’m just not a fan baseless claims like Curry’s “sloppy handles” or poor PNR ability.

That said I’ll drop it. Like you said it’s not really that important and takes away from the discussion of others.

Tell me where he **** improved then?????????

I've asked a billion times if you have no answer say so, don't assure me he totally improved and give zero evidence to show it. Like seriously you keep saying things, not giving any reason as to why what you're saying is true, then you're accusing me of making baseless claims while ignoring the mountains of evidence I post. Really?

[Mavericksfan]

I actually value 2017 higher. I’m just not a fan baseless claims like Curry’s “sloppy handles” or poor PNR ability.

That said I’ll drop it. Like you said it’s not really that important and takes away from the discussion of others.
Tell me where he **** improved then?????????

I've asked a billion times if you have no answer say so, don't assure me he totally improved and give zero evidence to show it. Like seriously you keep saying things, not giving any reason as to why what you're saying is true, then you're accusing me of making baseless claims while ignoring the mountains of evidence I post. Really?

We spoke about this in the last topic and I answered your question. Why are you so hostile about this?

But I’ll try once more.

From ‘15-‘16? He became a better finisher and more aggressive attacking from the 3pt line and against going downhill against aggressive defenses.

From then till now? He’s added a floater, he’s a better passer, ball handler(as in less “sloppy” as you call it) and is a much much better defender.

If you’re disputing anything I’d rather it be a PM discussion so we can agree on the criteria needed to sway the other’s opinion.

Here’s the last thing I’ll post concerning Steph’s injury because I’m over it.

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/stephen-curry-mcl-sprain-grade-i-golden-state-warriors-nba/

Also mentions 2-6 week window for MCL grade 1. Injuries arent black/white. This isnt a video game where people just heal after a set time. It’s a gradual process which can be slowed down if you play too soon of reaggravate anything.

[WarriorGM]

Just a few points on Curry 2016 since it's being talked about.

If I recall correctly he suffered three injuries two of which forced him to miss games in the playoffs. One could say that since he was injured he wasn't at peak. Or one could say that despite having been injured that he still followed up the way he did shows he was coming off a really high peak.

The Warriors beat the Thunder who had just beaten a 67-win team in a playoffs series and had the prior MVP and the succeeding MVP not including the current MVP (who was Curry). When has that been done before?

The Warriors were 5 points away from a truly monstrous achievement if they had beaten the Cavaliers in game 7. Best season of all-time would not be too high a compliment. For those who say "but they didn't" that's fair—but that's an end result all or nothing achievement argument. Is that kind of argument being consistently applied to all the other candidates?

Curry is perhaps unique or much different from other candidates. He himself is an impressive individual player on his own, but he is also recognized as one of the best players when it comes to enhancing teammates. LeBron's fans chirp about how LeBron led all players in that series in every box score metric and is the only player to have ever done so. The Cavaliers also had a scoring contribution from Kyrie that made him a top 10 ppg career scorer in a finals. Nonetheless something on the Warriors brought the Cavaliers to the brink of elimination in that series. Unless one is really high on the other Warriors that something was probably Curry.

By the way, after looking at the selections 1-10, I don't think this can seriously be considered a plausible peaks project. It might just as well be called a run-of-the-mill top 10 players list. A realistic peak list might see the same name more than once and not hew so closely to a generic top 10 list. As it is I think people are being swayed to rank peaks as they would a generic ranking list. It would have been better to come up with a top regular season peak list and a top playoffs season peak list and then combine them weighting the regular season and the playoffs as one wishes.

[E-Balla]

We spoke about this in the last topic and I answered your question. Why are you so hostile about this?

Because you didn't. That was you answering what Steph is better about now in 2019, which was an ancillary point to the conversation. I'm asking what he improved on between the 2015 season and the 2016 season or between the 2016 and 2017 season now. That whole 2019 vs 2016 thing was something from when (iirc) you at the end of one of the posts said you thought Steph improved in the areas I said he was weak in. It's really not all that relevant to the conversation or the thread given nobody is voting for 2019 Curry.

Here’s the last thing I’ll post concerning Steph’s injury because I’m over it.

https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/stephen-curry-mcl-sprain-grade-i-golden-state-warriors-nba/

Also mentions 2-6 week window for MCL grade 1. Injuries arent black/white. This isnt a video game where people just heal after a set time. It’s a gradual process which can be slowed down if you play too soon of reaggravate anything.

Cool, the Finals was well after 6 weeks and again no NBA player is 100% in the playoffs so I don't even get why this is something you're sticking to. The idea he was injured is just insanity, especially when you weren't able to give me on the court evidence of his injury effecting his play, and the biggest example you did have was immediately disproven when I pulled up clips of him not attacking RJ and Kyrie in 2015 and 17.

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 76 Dr. J
Ballot #2 - 64 Oscar (Sorry E-Balla, haven't had a chance to look at 63 yet)
Ballot #3 - 16 Curry

--------------------

Ballot #1 - 76 Dr. J

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I get it. It's a 5 minute clip, but I still think you can tell just how talented this guy was that year. An unstoppable offensive force leading his team to the championship. Nets also ranked 1st in defense that season.

For those who doubt the ABA, check out his per 100 #s in 76 vs. 80:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ervinju01.html#per_poss::none

They’re nearly identical including efficiency. This is when he was given a bigger role in the offense after Cunningham came aboard as coach.

It’s possible his ball handling is being underrated here due aesthetics. He kinda slapped the ball down as he dribbled, especially on the fast break. Similar to the way Barkley dribbled in his Sixers days. While it may have looked a little sloppy, I think it was just as effective given his big hands and long strides once he went to make his moves.

Also, his ability to get off shots at the rim in tight spaces was pretty incredible. This also had a lot to do with his body control.

The below footage is from 74, but it's pretty similar to the way he was playing in 76.

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Ballot #2 - 64 Oscar

Oscar's 64 season was very impressive on a number of levels:

RS: 31.4 PPG, 9.9 RPG, 11 APG, 48.3% FG, 85.3% FT (league leading on 11.9 FTAs per game), 57.6% TS (+9.1% vs. league avg), .278 WS/48

PS: 29.3 PPG, 8.9 RPG, 8.4 APG, 45.5% FG, 85.8% FT (12.7 FTAs per game), 56.8% TS, .245 WS/48

The royals ranked 2nd in SRS that season, losing in the playoffs to the #1 ranked SRS and eventual champion celtics. While his raw averages can certainly be attributed to the fast paced play during that era, his overall efficiency and ability to get to the line at will is pretty staggering.

Oscar's playoff #s do drop slightly across the board, but there's nothing there to suggest that he struggled. His best teammate Jerry Lucas had a serious drop off in scoring and efficiency come playoff time (17.7 PPG on 57.8% TS in RS vs. 12.2 PPG on 43.8% TS in PS). That very well could've been the difference in the series.

63-64 was his 4th season, so the below footage should be able to capture his style of play at the time:

Watch on YouTube

[Yeah... I could do without the music]

What stands out to me is his precision when he makes his moves as well as his strength when he gets inside. Reminds me of west, too, although he wasn't quite as powerful.

Oscar would win also win MVP that season in dominating fashion. Via NY Times:

Oscar Robertson, the Cincin­nati Royals' talented back‐court man, yesterday was voted the President's Trophy, the Na­tional Basketball Association's most valuable player award, by the biggest margin on record.

The voting is by N.B.A. play­ers, with the restriction that they cannot vote for members of their own teams. Robertson received 60 of a possible 85 first‐place votes. In the point scoring on a 5, 3, 1 basis, Robertson received a total of 362 points, a record.

Wilt Chamberlain of San Francisco, who won the trophy as a rookie in 1960, placed see­ond in the voting with 19 first­place votes and 215 points. Bill Russell of Boston, the winner for the last three years, was third with 11 firsts and 167 points.

Ballot #3 - 16 Curry

Arguably the greatest offensive regular season ever, or at least in the modern era, say since 1980? The finals "collapse" doesn't kill the season for me. It literally came down to the last minute to decide the championship. This wasn't a 4-1 trouncing or something ala pistons lakers in 04. I have to take a closer look at 2017 because it's certainly close, but that 2016 season was a sight to see. Appointment television every night and curry was the center of it. It was special.

[E-Balla]

Just a few points on Curry 2016 since it's being talked about.

If I recall correctly he suffered three injuries two of which forced him to miss games in the playoffs. One could say that since he was injured he wasn't at peak. Or one could say that despite having been injured that he still followed up the way he did shows he was coming off a really high peak.

The Warriors beat the Thunder who had just beaten a 67-win team in a playoffs series and had the prior MVP and the succeeding MVP not including the current MVP (who was Curry). When has that been done before?

The Warriors were 5 points away from a truly monstrous achievement if they had beaten the Cavaliers in game 7. Best season of all-time would not be too high a compliment. For those who say "but they didn't" that's fair—but that's an end result all or nothing achievement argument. Is that kind of argument being consistently applied to all the other candidates?

Nope. Just the grade 1 MCL sprain. He came back for a game against Houston, looked bad, so they say him again but it was the same injury.

To the rest of that all of what you said could be used to argue Klay and Draymond were too 10 too, why discuss team accomplishments when we're talking about Curry?

No one here is arguing that Curry shouldn't be in this spot because he lost so I don't get the relevance of bringing that up at all.

Curry is perhaps unique or much different from other candidates. He himself is an impressive individual player on his own, but he is also recognized as one of the best players when it comes to enhancing teammates. LeBron's fans chirp about how LeBron led all players in that series in every box score metric and is the only player to have ever done so. The Cavaliers also had a scoring contribution from Kyrie that made him a top 10 ppg career scorer in a finals. Nonetheless something on the Warriors brought the Cavaliers to the brink of elimination in that series. Unless one is really high on the other Warriors that something was probably Curry.

The Warriors had 2 other All-Pros that managed to go 4-2 in the playoffs without Steph having an SRS of +9.5 on those games. Long story short, yes we think highly of his teammates.

By the way, after looking at the selections 1-10, I don't think this can seriously be considered a plausible peaks project. It might just as well be called a run-of-the mill top 10 players list. A realistic peak list might see the same name more than once and not hew so closely to a generic top 10 list. As it is I think people are being swayed to rank peaks as they would a generic ranking list. It would have been better to come up with a top regular season peak list and a top playoffs season peak list and then combine them weighting the regular season and the playoffs as one wishes.

It skews towards the regularish top 10 list because the top guys are really really really good compared to the others. And the reason we limit it to one season per player is because no one wants to see a list that's 50 individual seasons of Bill Russell, Wilt, Jordan, MJ, Duncan, Shaq, and Kareem. It's just not compelling.

[ardee]

I won't be considering Curry until the bottom end of the teens. He's proven his game is not even close to as Playoff resilient as guys like Kobe/Wade/Dirk (who are incidentally 12-13-14 for me). Also think 2011 Dirk has a case for the 12 spot as well.

Where's Dr. J on your list?

Early 20s. I don't rank ABA players, just don't have enough context, so 1980 is his peak for me.

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