People are writing off LeBron the same way they write off the Spurs

[JVL]

Lebron’s last playoffs were 2 seasons ago. A player that’s in their mid 30s can lose a lot quick at that age, especially when you consider Lebron has the mileage of someone close to retirement.

Close to retirement? Let's compare Lebron his mileage (expressed in minutes played) to some retired greats:

Only Iron Men like Kareem and Karl Malone, and to a lesser extent Kobe, Dirk and Duncan (he's going to pass all 3 this season), have played more minutes than Lebron. All these players combined have played, on average, 10.4% fewer minutes than Lebron has right now.



And the crazy part? Lebron is still playing at an all-time great level, gunning for a championship as one of the best players in the league.

Lebron currently has the mileage of a HOF tier player well in retirement. Including the mediocre years most of these guys had towards the ends of their careers.

What Lebron is doing right now can only be compared to Kareem and Malone. That's how unique this is. Considering the level Lebron is playing at, I can see him doing this for another 7-8.000 minutes, which would be about 3 seasons before suffering a significant enough decline.

[Pelly24]

It was making me chuckle how everyone on the GB/PC boards were stating that Lebron was going to play until age 40-42 because of his "superhuman athleticism".

If NBA history hasn't shown this already, you will see within the next few years how difficult that is. And if he makes it through the next few, he'll be 38, which is remarkable enough. Regardless, it's reasonable to bet on a decline after what we saw last year, particularly his decline on the defensive end.

Here are the oldest players to average above 20 points of all time

https://www.interbasket.net/news/23635/2018/05/oldest-nba-players-with-highest-scoring-averages-20ppg/

It's a rare feat and Lebron will likely make that list this year. Still, it puts father-time into perspective. If Lebron remains relevant at the lite level, it will be as an all-around player (which he is), likely not as a dominating scorer that he used to be.

Now, notice that the list is dominated by players who had an unusually elite touch/jumper/fadeaway and moves that required less athleticism. You see Jordan (obvious), Malone, Kareem, Dirk... Ewing, all guys who had the very highest level of touch on the ball. Either they didn't have explosive games or had games that could function without that explosion. All of those players had post games. I believe that Lebron is closer to the Dwyane Wade category than he is to that category that Jordan/Malone/Kareem is in. I would certainly bet on it. I have noticed that across sports, years playing in the league doesn't seem to be nearly the factor that age is, so that's working in Lebron's favor. That said, we'll see.

LeBron's pretty much played longer than all of those guys, and he's four inches taller than DWade, he's got carilege in his knees and he's actually a much better shooter too.

He is a much better shooter than Wade, but he’s a lot older than wade was when Wade had his steep decline.

But once again, for midrange and post game he’s more in Wade territory than Kareem Jordan Malone.

For sure, I'd say his skill level is closer to wade's than those guys as far as post, but the other factors are important. LeBron is closer to being the size of Karl Malone than he is DWade. He is literally massive. That alone makes him a more viable scorer, in addition to his much better three-point shot and more consistent midrange jumper. Wade was never capable of being a league-average three-point shooter. LeBron is probably at about 36-37% from three over the last five years, and he is very comfortable taking them. Those two factors already make LeBron a far different case, but then you look at the fact that wade had his meniscus removed when he was still in college (or something like that). His knee issues—cumulative ones that result from missing a part of the knee—are ones LeBron's shown zero signs of having. The knee issues played as much of a role in Wade's decline than his age.

So I expect LeBron to decline, but not in the way other people do and I don't think his decline has been proven conclusively yet. All of the candidates for best player have serious flaws LeBron does not really have. We'll have a better idea after this season.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

[bledredwine]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

[Cavsfansince84]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

Name the players who went to 8 straight finals, got injured the next year but nothing that serious and then got a full summer rest and who were nearly as dedicated to their bodies as LeBron has been the last 10-12 years. Its silly to use any sort of historical precedent with a player like LeBron imo.

[Winsome Gerbil]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

I've often said to myself, "Self, OIMG what a steep decline!":

LeBron's Version of Steep Decline
2014-15 Age:30 36.1min 25.3pts (.577) 6.0reb 7.4ast 1.6stl 0.7blk 3.9TO
2015-16 Age:31 35.6min 25.3pts (.588) 7.4reb 6.8ast 1.4stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
2016-17 Age:32 37.8min 26.4pts (.619) 8.6reb 8.7ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 4.1TO
2017-18 Age:33 36.9min 27.5pts (.621) 8.6reb 9.1ast 1.4stl 0.9blk 4.2TO
2018-19 Age:34 35.2min 27.4pts (.588) 8.5reb 8.3ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.6TO


How did that work out? I'm sorry, I had to close my eyes before the steep decline began, because it was so brutal and embarrassing for LeBron. I felt legit bad.

[bledredwine]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

I've often said to myself, "Self, OIMG what a steep decline!":

LeBron's Version of Steep Decline
2014-15 Age:30 36.1min 25.3pts (.577) 6.0reb 7.4ast 1.6stl 0.7blk 3.9TO
2015-16 Age:31 35.6min 25.3pts (.588) 7.4reb 6.8ast 1.4stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
2016-17 Age:32 37.8min 26.4pts (.619) 8.6reb 8.7ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 4.1TO
2017-18 Age:33 36.9min 27.5pts (.621) 8.6reb 9.1ast 1.4stl 0.9blk 4.2TO
2018-19 Age:34 35.2min 27.4pts (.588) 8.5reb 8.3ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.6TO


How did that work out? I'm sorry, I had to close my eyes before the steep decline began, because it was so brutal and embarrassing for LeBron. I felt legit bad.

Did you watch his defense? Did you watch the lakers? He’s definitely gotten worse, regardless of the stats you’re throwing my way. Otherwise he’d be considered the best player. Common sense, no?

Aside from this, his PER was 25.6 last year, down from 28.6 the year prior and 31 at his best year. Let’s not throw out 50 numbers when one is more telling.

How did that work out? Did he make the playoffs?

Lebron is declining. Sorry. Blaming it on hate is a emotionally impulsive and irrational. And if he has a good season? Great. He’s still almost 36 and about to decline. I’m still waiting on your example of players bouncing back, but as you secretly know, calling it dislike was a cop out and Father Time is very real.

We all decline physically, just like we all die. 27 is our physical prime. I don’t know what else to tell you.

[Pelly24]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

I just don't see the "steep decline" part of what you're saying. He missed 17 games last year on a terribly constructed team of guys that was ultimately probably worse than his Cavs teams between 2007-2010. On a team with no spacing, no truly reliable second option and no knockdown shooters, LeBron averaged 27/8/8 on 58 TS% and a high usage rate. He kept up the pace after his injury and his return to a very dysfunctional group. LeBron had a "down" year in his first year with the cavs too.

I get your point that we can't expect him to necessarily be where he was, but between the bad team, the injury and the growing pains of being in a new setting, LeBron producing MVP raw numbers should be a good sign that he's yet to fall off. I think you're expecting the steep decline because of age and the idea of a lingering injury, but in reality he was beasting at the very end of the year and didn't show many signs of slowing down. We know he doesn't try that hard on defense during the regular season, but even then, his advanced metrics for defense still showed him to be a slight positive.

Now that he's got a legit rim protector and a guy that can get 25 a game without trying at all, and a nice 3&D guy in Danny green and possibly an improved Kuzma and more experienced players, LeBron's got a nice squad. If cousins can be even a marginal defender it's probably game over.

[Pelly24]

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

I've often said to myself, "Self, OIMG what a steep decline!":

LeBron's Version of Steep Decline
2014-15 Age:30 36.1min 25.3pts (.577) 6.0reb 7.4ast 1.6stl 0.7blk 3.9TO
2015-16 Age:31 35.6min 25.3pts (.588) 7.4reb 6.8ast 1.4stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
2016-17 Age:32 37.8min 26.4pts (.619) 8.6reb 8.7ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 4.1TO
2017-18 Age:33 36.9min 27.5pts (.621) 8.6reb 9.1ast 1.4stl 0.9blk 4.2TO
2018-19 Age:34 35.2min 27.4pts (.588) 8.5reb 8.3ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.6TO


How did that work out? I'm sorry, I had to close my eyes before the steep decline began, because it was so brutal and embarrassing for LeBron. I felt legit bad.

Did you watch his defense? Did you watch the lakers? He’s definitely gotten worse, regardless of the stats you’re throwing my way. Otherwise he’d be considered the best player. Common sense, no?

Aside from this, his PER was 25.6 last year, down from 28.6 the year prior and 31 at his best year. Let’s not throw out 50 numbers when one is more telling.

How did that work out? Did he make the playoffs?

Lebron is declining. Sorry. Blaming it on hate is a emotionally impulsive and irrational. And if he has a good season? Great. He’s still almost 36 and about to decline. I’m still waiting on your example of players bouncing back, but as you secretly know, calling it dislike was a cop out and Father Time is very real.

We all decline physically, just like we all die. 27 is our physical prime. I don’t know what else to tell you.

You're basically ignoring all context with this. Bottom line, put LeBron on the raptors and this conversation isn't happening. As good as Kawhi was in this year's playoffs, it's still probably a level and a half below LeBron in 2018. So Lebron even has room to drop a bit and he'd still play as well as Kawhi.

[NbaAllDay]

It was making me chuckle how everyone on the GB/PC boards were stating that Lebron was going to play until age 40-42 because of his "superhuman athleticism".

If NBA history hasn't shown this already, you will see within the next few years how difficult that is. And if he makes it through the next few, he'll be 38, which is remarkable enough. Regardless, it's reasonable to bet on a decline after what we saw last year, particularly his decline on the defensive end.

Here are the oldest players to average above 20 points of all time

https://www.interbasket.net/news/23635/2018/05/oldest-nba-players-with-highest-scoring-averages-20ppg/

It's a rare feat and Lebron will likely make that list this year. Still, it puts father-time into perspective. If Lebron remains relevant at the lite level, it will be as an all-around player (which he is), likely not as a dominating scorer that he used to be.

Now, notice that the list is dominated by players who had an unusually elite touch/jumper/fadeaway and moves that required less athleticism. You see Jordan (obvious), Malone, Kareem, Dirk... Ewing, all guys who had the very highest level of touch on the ball. Either they didn't have explosive games or had games that could function without that explosion. All of those players had post games. I believe that Lebron is closer to the Dwyane Wade category than he is to that category that Jordan/Malone/Kareem is in. I would certainly bet on it. I have noticed that across sports, years playing in the league doesn't seem to be nearly the factor that age is, so that's working in Lebron's favor. That said, we'll see.

LeBron's pretty much played longer than all of those guys, and he's four inches taller than DWade, he's got carilege in his knees and he's actually a much better shooter too.

He is a much better shooter than Wade, but he’s a lot older than wade was when Wade had his steep decline.

But once again, for midrange and post game he’s more in Wade territory than Kareem Jordan Malone.

Although I agree with the Wade comparison and Lebrons lack of post game compared to the others, the one big thing missing from the comparison is Lebron is a far better playmaker and passer than the rest of those mentioned.

Transitioning into a point forward with AD down low and shooters will defintely hell him stay impactful even with father time involved. Something Wade couldn't do.

[DatAsh]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

I've often said to myself, "Self, OIMG what a steep decline!":

LeBron's Version of Steep Decline
2014-15 Age:30 36.1min 25.3pts (.577) 6.0reb 7.4ast 1.6stl 0.7blk 3.9TO
2015-16 Age:31 35.6min 25.3pts (.588) 7.4reb 6.8ast 1.4stl 0.6blk 3.3TO
2016-17 Age:32 37.8min 26.4pts (.619) 8.6reb 8.7ast 1.2stl 0.6blk 4.1TO
2017-18 Age:33 36.9min 27.5pts (.621) 8.6reb 9.1ast 1.4stl 0.9blk 4.2TO
2018-19 Age:34 35.2min 27.4pts (.588) 8.5reb 8.3ast 1.3stl 0.6blk 3.6TO


How did that work out? I'm sorry, I had to close my eyes before the steep decline began, because it was so brutal and embarrassing for LeBron. I felt legit bad.

And that’s just offense. His defense improved substantially last year. Taking into account defense, he was better last year than he was in 2018. 2018 was the real decline, 2019, if anything, was a bit of a bounce back.

[Lakers LeBron]

LeBron in 2014/15 was 30 years old, dealing with a major back injury, rapidly declining defensively, and he had statistically the worst season of his career since his rookie season. Everyone who said that LeBron on the downside of his career and had played his best basketball was 100% justified in saying so. And everyone was saying that. Read any topic about LeBron from that season and you'll see people saying that he doesn't look like the same human being he was a year ago. Listen to what Windhorst was saying about LeBron or what 538 was writing about LeBron that season. All but the most irrational LeBron stans thought the King was cooked.

Now, it may very well be impossible for a 35 year old coming off a serious groin injury to have a bounce-back season. Certainly the historical precedent loudly states that it is foolish to even consider such a possibility. And if it were any other human, I would agree completely. But right now we're talking about the ultimate outlier. Maybe the greatest athlete of all time; a guy who takes better care of his body than anyone in human history, and everyone is saying that he can't defy the odds yet again? Well, I disagree.

[PistolPeteJR]

Some difference here: they are also writing off LeBron because they really don't like him. It's a right off of convenience.

However the odds of him not coming back rejuvenated now that's he's got another potential contender are slim and none.

Go ahead and name the players who have had bounce back years at age 35 after a steep decline the year before.

Then blame it on dislike.

Why would he do that? What’s that got to do wIth LeBron?

Oh wait, do you mean to say LeBron had a “steep decline” last year? Because if so, facts?

[freethedevil]

You can trust LeBron all you want. I still see him as one of the best in the game today.

People are saying he isn't the best player anymore because he wasn't the best player in the league last year. As a matter of fact he wasn't even in the discussion. Players need to prove themselves year after year after year to be considered the best. And he didn't do it.

It's up to him to prove people wrong next year. I don't think he's the best anymore, but think he can still be a top 3 player in the league and a key player on a championship team.

I have the Lakers as one of the top 3 teams... so we have to wait and see.

Rooting for him to have a great season. Hard to root for him to win a ring. I don't like the Lakers.

I get the idea that he's not the best player, but the players "ahead" of LeBron just have such glaring weaknesses LeBron really hasn't shown in the playoffs recently.

Lebron cannot anchor a defense. At best he can be a positive compliment for a true anchor liek giannis, embid, or ad. Seems like a pretty huge weakness for me.

[bledredwine]

I’m confused.

So why didn’t Lebron choose to guard Durant in the finals if he hasn’t been declining? Given what I’m reading here about his defense, he should have been guarding him the entire series.

And why have his minutes been declining? Hmmmm

[Pelly24]

You can trust LeBron all you want. I still see him as one of the best in the game today.

People are saying he isn't the best player anymore because he wasn't the best player in the league last year. As a matter of fact he wasn't even in the discussion. Players need to prove themselves year after year after year to be considered the best. And he didn't do it.

It's up to him to prove people wrong next year. I don't think he's the best anymore, but think he can still be a top 3 player in the league and a key player on a championship team.

I have the Lakers as one of the top 3 teams... so we have to wait and see.

Rooting for him to have a great season. Hard to root for him to win a ring. I don't like the Lakers.

I get the idea that he's not the best player, but the players "ahead" of LeBron just have such glaring weaknesses LeBron really hasn't shown in the playoffs recently.

Lebron cannot anchor a defense. At best he can be a positive compliment for a true anchor liek giannis, embid, or ad. Seems like a pretty huge weakness for me.

But his best case is he can still be a positive on defense, even if he's not the anchor. On the other hand, Embiid can't score in a multitude of ways and beat any defense like LeBron has shown to be able to do. He also can't playmake and he obviously scores at a considerably lower rate. Giannis also cannot touch lebron as a scorer and as a playmaker, and his defense ultimately doesn't mean that much if he can be shut down. AD can't be a great playmaker and his defense takes a hit the more well he plays on offense.

These guys all have things they simply cannot do. Offensively, LeBron can do any and everything and is probably second greatest scorer ever when accounting for volume, efficiency and consistency. He's also leagues and leagues better as a playmaker. If your flaw is that he can't be as impactful on defense as he is on offense and he can be merely "good" than you're still in great shape. Those other guys have flaws that routinely affect them adversely in the postseason.

[DatAsh]

You can trust LeBron all you want. I still see him as one of the best in the game today.

People are saying he isn't the best player anymore because he wasn't the best player in the league last year. As a matter of fact he wasn't even in the discussion. Players need to prove themselves year after year after year to be considered the best. And he didn't do it.

It's up to him to prove people wrong next year. I don't think he's the best anymore, but think he can still be a top 3 player in the league and a key player on a championship team.

I have the Lakers as one of the top 3 teams... so we have to wait and see.

Rooting for him to have a great season. Hard to root for him to win a ring. I don't like the Lakers.

I get the idea that he's not the best player, but the players "ahead" of LeBron just have such glaring weaknesses LeBron really hasn't shown in the playoffs recently.

Lebron cannot anchor a defense. At best he can be a positive compliment for a true anchor liek giannis, embid, or ad. Seems like a pretty huge weakness for me.

How do you define "anchoring" a defense.

Looking at RAPM, from 2007 to 2011 Lebron was the second best defensive player in the league, at +4.7, trailing only Kevin Garnett. From 2012 to 2016 he was 8th best in the league at +3.3. But, 12-16 Lebron was obviously slacking on defense during the regular season only to turn it up greatly in the playoffs. Playoff Lebron was definitely a top 3 defender. So, how good of a defender do you have to be to "anchor" a defense? I guess I don't see how Lebron doesn't qualify here.

[First Take]

This season LeBron James has a really good chance at winning the championship. If this does happen, this narrative that LeBron is done (just like what is said about the spurs), will prove not to be true.

[freethedevil]

I get the idea that he's not the best player, but the players "ahead" of LeBron just have such glaring weaknesses LeBron really hasn't shown in the playoffs recently.

Lebron cannot anchor a defense. At best he can be a positive compliment for a true anchor liek giannis, embid, or ad. Seems like a pretty huge weakness for me.

How do you define "anchoring" a defense.

Looking at RAPM, from 2007 to 2011 Lebron was the second best defensive player in the league, at +4.7, trailing only Kevin Garnett. From 2012 to 2016 he was 8th best in the league at +3.3. But, 12-16 Lebron was obviously slacking on defense during the regular season only to turn it up greatly in the playoffs. Playoff Lebron was definitely a top 3 defender. So, how good of a defender do you have to be to "anchor" a defense? I guess I don't see how Lebron doesn't qualify here.

17-19 Lebron was the best defender on a terrible cavs defense and was a compliment to lonzo defensively when the lakers are good. You clearly can build a defense with him, but you certainly can't build one around him.

[freethedevil]

I’m confused.

So why didn’t Lebron choose to guard Durant in the finals if he hasn’t been declining? Given what I’m reading here about his defense, he should have been guarding him the entire series.

And why have his minutes been declining? Hmmmm

Lebron has declined, but lol at the cliche and silly "best defender always guards the best player" nonsense. The cavs left durant there cause the gameplan revolved around curry. And cav lebron was still their primary rim protector and most switchable perimiter deterrent.