Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett

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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#21 » by Odinn21 » Sun Aug 4, 2019 6:34 pm

Peak; 2003-04 Garnett => 1986-87 Magic
Extended peak; 1986-87/1988-89 Magic > 2002-03/2004-05 Garnett
Prime; 1984-85/1990-91 Magic > 2001-02/2007-08 Garnett
Extended prime; 1979-80/1990-91 Magic > 1997-98/2011-12 Garnett

In extended prime category, it seems like Garnett had more seasons in him but considering what he had accomplish in that time he's not better than Magic. Also, it's hard to consider KG after 2007-08 season, mainly due to injuries, as prime KG. He missed the entire 2009 playoffs. And 2011-12 season is the only season which's worthy to consider as a prime season after 2007-08.

Magic should be ranked ahead of KG with a considerable margin. While I have Magic in 7-10 range, I have KG in 17-23 range. As impactful as he's at his best, KG ain't beating Magic in goat rankings.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#22 » by DatAsh » Sun Aug 4, 2019 6:58 pm

I’ve personally got KG in the 5-6 range and Magic in the 10-11 range.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#23 » by jdzimme3 » Mon Aug 5, 2019 2:42 am

I think comparisons like kg vs dirk, Robinson, Malone, barkley, Ewing make a lot more sense than some of the threads we are seeing recently. Magic would rank ahead of kg on probably 90% of lists


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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#24 » by BmanInBigD » Tue Aug 6, 2019 11:59 pm

What? KG in the 5-6 range all-time? Maybe in the decade from 2000-2009...but all-time? This place has gone crazy with the KG and Duncan myopia.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#25 » by Hal14 » Wed Aug 7, 2019 2:52 am

Jiminy Glick wrote:Garnett
Garnett
Garnett

Defense: Garnett
Rebounding: Garnett
Team Basketball: Garnett
Scoring: Magic
Passing: Magic

But scoring is close and Garnett has a huge advantage in defense and rebounding. I think Garnett is more of a team player as Magic was more ball dominant than Garnett and Garnett could play off the ball very well. Magic played on teams that were very good and much better than Garnett's teams so he won more championships.


1) Garnett better at team basketball..huh? You could argue that no player ever made his teammates better and elevated his teammates level of play than Magic. Byron Scott, AC Green, Worthy, Kareem, Cooper and Rambis..those guys were all MUCH better because they played with Magic. Meanwhile, there's tons of articles you can find about fights that KG got into with teammates and teammates who have left the team because they didn't want to play with KG anymore.

2) Sure, Magic may have played with better teammates. But again, you could argue that his teammates were so great BECAUSE they got to play with Magic.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#26 » by frica » Wed Aug 7, 2019 3:54 pm

Magic was more ball dominant because he's the best passer of all time.
Can't fault Magic for that.

Garnett is still better though (overall.)
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#27 » by Jiminy Glick » Wed Aug 7, 2019 6:45 pm

Hal14 wrote:
Jiminy Glick wrote:Garnett
Garnett
Garnett

Defense: Garnett
Rebounding: Garnett
Team Basketball: Garnett
Scoring: Magic
Passing: Magic

But scoring is close and Garnett has a huge advantage in defense and rebounding. I think Garnett is more of a team player as Magic was more ball dominant than Garnett and Garnett could play off the ball very well. Magic played on teams that were very good and much better than Garnett's teams so he won more championships.


1) Garnett better at team basketball..huh? You could argue that no player ever made his teammates better and elevated his teammates level of play than Magic. Byron Scott, AC Green, Worthy, Kareem, Cooper and Rambis..those guys were all MUCH better because they played with Magic. Meanwhile, there's tons of articles you can find about fights that KG got into with teammates and teammates who have left the team because they didn't want to play with KG anymore.

2) Sure, Magic may have played with better teammates. But again, you could argue that his teammates were so great BECAUSE they got to play with Magic.


I totally see what you mean but Garnett played off the ball better, thus teammates had the ball instead of him, thus I feel he incorporated the team more. As far as Garnett fighting with teammates I don't know anything about that but Jordan got into fights with teammates as well. I am not saying it is right to do though. I have Jordan as a better team player over Magic as well in terms of playstyle.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#28 » by NO-KG-AI » Wed Aug 7, 2019 7:46 pm

Magic’s play style was literally manipulating defenses to get other guys great looks, or use his size to bully guards and create an easy bucket.

I don’t think raw numbers capture how amazing Magic was on offense. I think at his peak he was in the running for best offensive player ever with Jordan, LeBron etc, and that’s going to make him more valuable IMO.



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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#29 » by PhilBlackson » Wed Aug 7, 2019 9:18 pm

Magic
KG
Magic

Magic was the face of the league with Bird and most people arguably out Magic just slightly above Larry so there is no question in my mind who was the better between him and KG...it's Magic.

Magic is also arguably the best player to ever play his position. KG is vying to be 2nd and isn't definitively. I have a TON of respect for Garnett and believe he could have been ranked higher historically had he got the talent around like he did in Boston earlier in his career. But that wouldn't have trumped being the face of the league and best at your position all time, KG was never that.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#30 » by kendogg » Wed Aug 7, 2019 11:02 pm

KG is the ultimate #2, but he's not a #1 and he never was. The Wolves were a joke through their entirety of KG's stay in Minnesota despite having a few decently talented teams. Under-performed pretty much every year. Even the Celtics barely won once with 3 superstars and 4 all-stars and KG was the 3rd best offensive player on that team and it was Pierce/Allen guarding Kobe in the key playoff series not KG. Sure KG's defense helped but to say he's a GOAT level player I strongly disagree with. You can't be a GOAT player without GOAT level offense (in my opinion). Sorry, his defense is outstanding but that will never merit GOAT status for me. He's still a legendary player just not a GOAT level player.

Magic on the other hand has GOAT level offense. Best offensive PG to ever play the game. Only Oscar could challenge that and I feel like Magic is basically just a bigger version of Oscar. They are pretty similar playstyle wise. Yes, KG's defense is better than Magic, but KG also played a position where it is FAR easier to make a defensive impact. And when it comes to GOATs, offense is simply more important. Defense wins championships (and you get that mostly from your role players) but you still need a guy who can break down against these top level defenses. That is Magic, not KG.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#31 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Aug 8, 2019 3:40 am

kendogg wrote:KG is the ultimate #2, but he's not a #1 and he never was. The Wolves were a joke through their entirety of KG's stay in Minnesota despite having a few decently talented teams. Under-performed pretty much every year. Even the Celtics barely won once with 3 superstars and 4 all-stars and KG was the 3rd best offensive player on that team and it was Pierce/Allen guarding Kobe in the key playoff series not KG. Sure KG's defense helped but to say he's a GOAT level player I strongly disagree with. You can't be a GOAT player without GOAT level offense (in my opinion). Sorry, his defense is outstanding but that will never merit GOAT status for me. He's still a legendary player just not a GOAT level player.

Magic on the other hand has GOAT level offense. Best offensive PG to ever play the game. Only Oscar could challenge that and I feel like Magic is basically just a bigger version of Oscar. They are pretty similar playstyle wise. Yes, KG's defense is better than Magic, but KG also played a position where it is FAR easier to make a defensive impact. And when it comes to GOATs, offense is simply more important. Defense wins championships (and you get that mostly from your role players) but you still need a guy who can break down against these top level defenses. That is Magic, not KG.

This sounds pretty silly, considering Magic Johnson's position.

And no defense does not mainly come from roleplayers, not that that is really relevant. Most of the all time great players are players who anchored a defense. I don't get why people make this distinction between "individual" defense and "team" defense, it is basically saying there is no such thing as a defensive anchor, which I find hard to believe.

Kevin Garnett was a better offensive player than both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, it is bizarre that people think otherwise. He was the lead scorer for the Celtics, and before they were teammates he was pretty much universally seen as a better offensive player than those guys.

Saying KG under performed when he had "decently talented teams" is a joke compared to Magic Johnson. Compare year by year the teams KG had on Minny versus the teams Magic had. Magic has been upset by teams far inferior to his own, that has never happened with Kevin Garnett.

I don't know how anyone can bring up talent in an argument between KG and Magic's teammates, Magic Johnson literally had the perfect situation - and for what ever reason, we have the audacity to paint the picture as if KG was fortunate to be in Boston? Magic has had multiple teams more talented than the 08 Celtics, there is a big drop off between the 08 Celtics and the rest of KG's teams. It's not even close.

Kevin Garnett was the best player on every team he ever played for, and the gap between him and his #2s on every team has been big. Magic Johnson is the only guy alongside Bryant who is cited as a top ten player where nearly half his career he had a better teammate than himself. I mean did anyone stop to think that's why the Lakers win so much - because they have a bunch of star power, and not just one amazing god like player?

Imagine if Kevin Garnett and Shaq played together, the ring argument wouldn't look so good now - would it? That's basically what Magic had.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#32 » by WhateverBro » Thu Aug 8, 2019 4:37 am

kendogg wrote:KG is the ultimate #2, but he's not a #1 and he never was. The Wolves were a joke through their entirety of KG's stay in Minnesota despite having a few decently talented teams. Under-performed pretty much every year. Even the Celtics barely won once with 3 superstars and 4 all-stars and KG was the 3rd best offensive player on that team and it was Pierce/Allen guarding Kobe in the key playoff series not KG. Sure KG's defense helped but to say he's a GOAT level player I strongly disagree with. You can't be a GOAT player without GOAT level offense (in my opinion). Sorry, his defense is outstanding but that will never merit GOAT status for me. He's still a legendary player just not a GOAT level player.

Magic on the other hand has GOAT level offense. Best offensive PG to ever play the game. Only Oscar could challenge that and I feel like Magic is basically just a bigger version of Oscar. They are pretty similar playstyle wise. Yes, KG's defense is better than Magic, but KG also played a position where it is FAR easier to make a defensive impact. And when it comes to GOATs, offense is simply more important. Defense wins championships (and you get that mostly from your role players) but you still need a guy who can break down against these top level defenses. That is Magic, not KG.


What were the decently talent teams that the Wolves had with KG?

Better yet, what squads underperformed?
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#33 » by kendogg » Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:03 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:This sounds pretty silly, considering Magic Johnson's position.


Not sure what this means. But anyway, I'm not faulting KG for having worse teammates than Magic or not winning championships. I'm faulting him for winning 1 significant playoff series in his entire career in Minnesota. His teams weren't that bad. Most of them had more talent than LeBron in Cleveland. 2004 Minnesota is more talented than any Cleveland team ever.

In Boston, he barely won 1 ring and disappointed thereafter.

He's known as being an **** and many of his own teammates hated him. Can't be great for the locker room presence. He's not a vocal leader either. Just a trash talker.

He was never the best player of his era, much less in the all-time discussion. Shaq, Duncan, even Kobe and others were considered better at various points (or all points in the case of Duncan). KG was never considered the best player in the league.

But more than any of that, just look at his skills. Mediocre post offense for a star big. Can't shoot 3's. Shot under 50% FG for a star big man for most of his career and bricked way too many long 2's, especially in clutch moments. His defense is great...probably top 5 all time help defense. But just good as a rim protector. But I don't have Bill Russell on my GOAT list either and he's a better defender (and player) than KG. He's twice the rim protector as KG and just as good in team defense if not better (he wrote the book on it). I think defensive specialists can be stars, they can be superstars, they can be MVP tier players (as was Russell and KG), but they can't be GOATS. Magic at least has a marginal case for GOAT tier. KG has none (in my opinion). Personally I would put Magic in the MVP tier as well though (Bird and Jordan were both better than Magic I think so how can he really be GOAT tier if he isn't even the best player of his era?).

KG got a lot of Rondo assists too just standing around in the high post like Draymond. He is quite overrated as a playmaker. I don't think his handle is anything special.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#34 » by Bklynborn682 » Fri Aug 9, 2019 2:39 pm

I am asking this as a serious question not an accusation I think everyone knows 08 was KG’s most talented team and they won the chip but why did they struggle so hard in the eastern conference playoffs I believe they were taken to 7 games against fairly inferior talent laden teams like Atlanta, Cleveland, and in Detroit at least the talent level was closer (even if still not all that close.)
If the Celtics lose in the 1st round to Atlanta in this season and everything stays the same the rest of his career is he still viewed the same?
Again this is just a question not an accusation.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#35 » by DatAsh » Fri Aug 9, 2019 5:34 pm

kendogg wrote:His teams weren't that bad. Most of them had more talent than LeBron in Cleveland.


His teams were terrible. Look at the on/off and impact data. Comparing him to Lebron doesn't really do anything for me. Lebron is the best floor raiser in NBA history by a mile.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#36 » by kendogg » Fri Aug 9, 2019 6:48 pm

DatAsh wrote:
kendogg wrote:His teams weren't that bad. Most of them had more talent than LeBron in Cleveland.


His teams were terrible. Look at the on/off and impact data. Comparing him to Lebron doesn't really do anything for me. Lebron is the best floor raiser in NBA history by a mile.


LeBron is a great floor raiser and maybe the best, but not the best by a mile. There are plenty of other examples....like Magic Johnson for instance. Or Larry Bird..40 win change on the Celtics from 1979 to 1980 with a rookie Bird. Most of the GOAT candidates are all worth 30-40+ more wins. Even players not in the GOAT conversation are far better floor raisers than KG. David Robinson for example.

Which kinda makes my point...KG isn't that person. Scoring 25ppg on questionable efficiency for a big man probably doesn't make your team better, nor does being a bad teammate off the court and sometimes even on the court. And being a great defensive player isn't going to make up for all of that crap.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#37 » by No-more-rings » Fri Aug 9, 2019 7:49 pm

Bklynborn682 wrote:I am asking this as a serious question not an accusation I think everyone knows 08 was KG’s most talented team and they won the chip but why did they struggle so hard in the eastern conference playoffs I believe they were taken to 7 games against fairly inferior talent laden teams like Atlanta, Cleveland, and in Detroit at least the talent level was closer (even if still not all that close.)
If the Celtics lose in the 1st round to Atlanta in this season and everything stays the same the rest of his career is he still viewed the same?
Again this is just a question not an accusation.

The Celtics were never realistically going to lose to Atlanta, if you look at the point differential, ATL was clearly the worse team. I don't know how Atlanta won 3 games, i usually hear that Boston was playing down to their competition or something. Is it a coincidence though that they went 7 games with 2 much inferior teams? That's a bad habit to have for a contending team though, they were able to turn the switch on but it's not wise to underestimate your opponent. But yeah losing 8 games through 3 rounds is unimpressive for a title winning team regardless of the point differential.

If however in some strange universe, the Celtics do lose to either the Hawks or Cavs, yes that hurts KG's legacy badly. Casual fans may not see him as a top 50 player ever and i think even on this site he wouldn't be top 30. Even Kg's biggest supporters wouldn't be able to excuse that amount of failure. In Minnesota, he was excused for his teammates, which was usually fair, but in Boston 1 finals with no rings with that cast would've been utterly unacceptable.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#38 » by eminence » Fri Aug 9, 2019 8:15 pm

No player in history is worth 30-40+ wins. The very best approach 30 on teams that are among the worst in the league without them.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#39 » by kendogg » Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:46 pm

eminence wrote:No player in history is worth 30-40+ wins. The very best approach 30 on teams that are among the worst in the league without them.


Well of course the team would need to be bad to be able to raise 40 wins. Can't add 40 wins to a 40 win team that's not possible. But guys have done it if they are very developed rookies, like Larry Bird and David Robinson.

I've read most of the arguments in all these KG threads and the people who support him really all hinge their argument on KG's incredible PER's and how much he can stack a box score. Very hollow argument when he constantly loses to teams in the first round he really has no business losing to if he's the MVP and a true floor raiser. Westbrook can stack a box score too, but he can't get out of the first around either (without Durant). Some people are just worse than their box scores suggest. KG is one of those people. And in all likelihood, because he is a bad teammate.
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Re: Magic Johnson vs Kevin Garnett 

Post#40 » by eminence » Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:00 pm

kendogg wrote:
eminence wrote:No player in history is worth 30-40+ wins. The very best approach 30 on teams that are among the worst in the league without them.


Well of course the team would need to be bad to be able to raise 40 wins. Can't add 40 wins to a 40 win team that's not possible. But guys have done it if they are very developed rookies, like Larry Bird and David Robinson.


Bird got 32 on a team where a AS level guy was rounding back into form from a serious injury and another young star was continuing to develop (Tiny/Maxwell).

Robinson got 35 on a team that added Elliot and Cheeks/Strickland. (Along with the Robertson/Cummings swap).

When a team adds a star level player they tend to actively add better support pieces as well to turn themselves into real contenders.

I repeat, no one player is worth 30 wins, let alone 40 (the only team to make a 40+ win leap is, ironically, the '08 Celtics).
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