How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016?

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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#41 » by WarriorGM » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:45 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:And based on what was "peak" klay even better than "poor" draymond, let alone "peak" dray? :-?


2016 WCF, Klay was great Draymond wasn't, Warriors win. 2016 finals, Draymond was great Klay wasn't, Warriors lose.


Don't make me feel like a broken record please. :lol:

Yes, you said klay was great in the wcf and draymond was poor. Based on what was "great" klay more important for winning the wcf than "poor" dray?


Klay's ability to scorch the Thunder after the Warriors were down by double digits at the half and win game 6 is part of Warriors lore. That performance displayed firepower that can exceed that of Durant and Westbrook. It showed grit under fire. I presume you already know that so what is your question?
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#42 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:48 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:


Don't make me feel like a broken record please. :lol:

Yes, you said klay was great in the wcf and draymond was poor. Based on what was "great" klay more important for winning the wcf than "poor" dray?


Klay's ability to scorch the Thunder after the Warriors were down by double digits at the half and win game 6 is part of Warriors lore.

Klay "scorched the thunder" while draymond as your team's most valuable defender made sure klay "scorching the thunder" meant something. How was the former more valuable than the latter?
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#43 » by WarriorGM » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:54 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Yes, you said klay was great in the wcf and draymond was poor. Based on what was "great" klay more important for winning the wcf than "poor" dray?


Klay's ability to scorch the Thunder after the Warriors were down by double digits at the half and win game 6 is part of Warriors lore.

Klay "scorched the thunder" while draymond as your team's most valuable defender made sure klay "scorching the thunder" meant something. How was the former more valuable than the latter?


As I recall Draymond looked overmatched in that series. There was the incident he ended up kicking Adams and the blowout loss the game after. The Thunder neutralized him. Klay may have times when he is off, but when he is on you can put him up against any team.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#44 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:56 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Klay's ability to scorch the Thunder after the Warriors were down by double digits at the half and win game 6 is part of Warriors lore.

Klay "scorched the thunder" while draymond as your team's most valuable defender made sure klay "scorching the thunder" meant something. How was the former more valuable than the latter?


As I recall Draymond looked overmatched in that series. There was the incident he ended up kicking Adams and the blowout loss the game after. The Thunder neutralized him.

If they neutralized him, how come they weren't able to score enough points against him to win? :-?
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#45 » by WarriorGM » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:08 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Klay "scorched the thunder" while draymond as your team's most valuable defender made sure klay "scorching the thunder" meant something. How was the former more valuable than the latter?


As I recall Draymond looked overmatched in that series. There was the incident he ended up kicking Adams and the blowout loss the game after. The Thunder neutralized him.

If they neutralized him, how come they weren't able to score enough points against him to win? :-?


If you wish to argue that Draymond's defensive play that series was worth more than Klay's offense and deserves a higher place in Warriors' lore you may go right ahead.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#46 » by freethedevil » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:10 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
As I recall Draymond looked overmatched in that series. There was the incident he ended up kicking Adams and the blowout loss the game after. The Thunder neutralized him.

If they neutralized him, how come they weren't able to score enough points against him to win? :-?


If you wish to argue that Draymond's defensive play that series was worth more than Klay's offense and deserves a higher place in Warriors' lore you may go right ahead.

Well, since you've decided to ignore their respective impact, you really have no way to argue otherwise.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#47 » by ShotCreator » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:09 pm

WarriorGM wrote:I guess this confirms there are still people who will choose Harden and Paul as the better backcourt over Steph and Klay. It's why I will take wins as a superior metric over box scores in some contexts. But box scores! RAPM! It would be the equivalent of placing more value on cholesterol levels than mortality outcomes.

And what contexts are that? You do realize the Harden/Paul combo out-won damn near every Curry/Klay season ever, right? Except 2017. And even then it was close. They had a 74 win pace in 2018.

I’m pretty sure their winning percentage was higher together. And they broke even h2h in the playoffs with a 5-6 record.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#48 » by WarriorGM » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:25 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:I guess this confirms there are still people who will choose Harden and Paul as the better backcourt over Steph and Klay. It's why I will take wins as a superior metric over box scores in some contexts. But box scores! RAPM! It would be the equivalent of placing more value on cholesterol levels than mortality outcomes.

And what contexts are that? You do realize the Harden/Paul combo out-won damn near every Curry/Klay season ever, right? Except 2017. And even then it was close. They had a 74 win pace in 2018.

I’m pretty sure their winning percentage was higher together. And they broke even h2h in the playoffs with a 5-6 record.


Uh no, I did not realize the Harden/Paul combo out won near every Curry/Klay season ever. Care to explain?
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#49 » by ShotCreator » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:38 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:I guess this confirms there are still people who will choose Harden and Paul as the better backcourt over Steph and Klay. It's why I will take wins as a superior metric over box scores in some contexts. But box scores! RAPM! It would be the equivalent of placing more value on cholesterol levels than mortality outcomes.

And what contexts are that? You do realize the Harden/Paul combo out-won damn near every Curry/Klay season ever, right? Except 2017. And even then it was close. They had a 74 win pace in 2018.

I’m pretty sure their winning percentage was higher together. And they broke even h2h in the playoffs with a 5-6 record.


Uh no, I did not realize the Harden/Paul combo out won near every Curry/Klay season ever. Care to explain?

They were 42-4 together in the 2018 RS. 75 win pace.

11-4 in the playoffs.

68 win pace in RS/PS.

That outdoes all the prime Draymond era seasons except 2016-17.

The Curry/Thompson duo has never been close to prime Harden/Paul regardless of how you try and break it down.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#50 » by DatAsh » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:04 am

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
As I recall Draymond looked overmatched in that series. There was the incident he ended up kicking Adams and the blowout loss the game after. The Thunder neutralized him.

If they neutralized him, how come they weren't able to score enough points against him to win? :-?


If you wish to argue that Draymond's defensive play that series was worth more than Klay's offense and deserves a higher place in Warriors' lore you may go right ahead.


I agree with you here.

In terms of importance/impact on the Warriors, I would say

Steph > Draymond > Durant >>>>>>> Klay

In terms of actual goodness on an average team

Steph > Durant > Draymond >>>>>>>> Klay
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#51 » by WarriorGM » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:56 am

ShotCreator wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:And what contexts are that? You do realize the Harden/Paul combo out-won damn near every Curry/Klay season ever, right? Except 2017. And even then it was close. They had a 74 win pace in 2018.

I’m pretty sure their winning percentage was higher together. And they broke even h2h in the playoffs with a 5-6 record.


Uh no, I did not realize the Harden/Paul combo out won near every Curry/Klay season ever. Care to explain?

They were 42-4 together in the 2018 RS. 75 win pace.

11-4 in the playoffs.

68 win pace in RS/PS.

That outdoes all the prime Draymond era seasons except 2016-17.

The Curry/Thompson duo has never been close to prime Harden/Paul regardless of how you try and break it down.


One can just pick a stretch of games in a season and calculate pace to show they're better? Is that how it goes?

From what I can see the 2015-2016 Warriors in their first 46 games went 42-4 as well. Actually they got to 48-4.

If the 68-win pace in RS/PS relies on season they didn't play close to 82 games in the regular season it isn't that impressive especially when Harden/Paul lost in the conference finals and that is the farthest they've ever gone together while Curry/Klay have gotten to the finals 5 times and won 3 of them.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#52 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:59 am

WarriorGM wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Uh no, I did not realize the Harden/Paul combo out won near every Curry/Klay season ever. Care to explain?

They were 42-4 together in the 2018 RS. 75 win pace.

11-4 in the playoffs.

68 win pace in RS/PS.

That outdoes all the prime Draymond era seasons except 2016-17.

The Curry/Thompson duo has never been close to prime Harden/Paul regardless of how you try and break it down.


One can just pick a stretch of games in a season and calculate pace to show they're better? Is that how it goes?

From what I can see the 2015-2016 Warriors in their first 46 games went 42-4 as well. Actually they got to 48-4.

If the 68-win pace in RS/PS relies on season they didn't play close to 82 games in the regular season it isn't that impressive especially when Harden/Paul lost in the conference finals and that is the farthest they've ever gone together while Curry/Klay have gotten to the finals 5 times and won 3 of them.

What? Harden lost the conference finals. Harden + Paul were 3-2 up despite the rockets missing their 5th best player for more games. And off course, curry and klay having draymond and kd.

Curry and dray have made 5 finals, won 3 rings and suffered little when klay's been dropped. You value wins but curry+dray win more than curry+klay. The gymanstics just go better and better.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#53 » by WarriorGM » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:07 am

freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:They were 42-4 together in the 2018 RS. 75 win pace.

11-4 in the playoffs.

68 win pace in RS/PS.

That outdoes all the prime Draymond era seasons except 2016-17.

The Curry/Thompson duo has never been close to prime Harden/Paul regardless of how you try and break it down.


One can just pick a stretch of games in a season and calculate pace to show they're better? Is that how it goes?

From what I can see the 2015-2016 Warriors in their first 46 games went 42-4 as well. Actually they got to 48-4.

If the 68-win pace in RS/PS relies on season they didn't play close to 82 games in the regular season it isn't that impressive especially when Harden/Paul lost in the conference finals and that is the farthest they've ever gone together while Curry/Klay have gotten to the finals 5 times and won 3 of them.

What? Harden lost the conference finals. Harden + Paul were 3-2 up despite the rockets missing their 5th best player for more games. And off course, curry and klay having draymond and kd.

Curry and dray have made 5 finals, won 3 rings and suffered little when klay's been dropped. You value wins but curry+dray win more than curry+klay. The gymanstics just go better and better.


Freethedevil you wish to take this up as well?

Are we supposed to hold it against Curry/Klay that Paul had to pull out? Harden/Paul had a golden opportunity to prove to everyone in this year's conference semi-finals when injury felled Durant and the shoe was on the other foot that they could get the job done and back up their bravado from last year—but they still couldn't and that's even with Curry gifting them an ice cold half where he scored zero on their home court. I thought it demonstrated pretty clearly the game was up. Harden/Paul realized it too and that's why they're no longer together. Anyway this season offers up a new season of challengers! How exciting!
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#54 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:19 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
One can just pick a stretch of games in a season and calculate pace to show they're better? Is that how it goes?

From what I can see the 2015-2016 Warriors in their first 46 games went 42-4 as well. Actually they got to 48-4.

If the 68-win pace in RS/PS relies on season they didn't play close to 82 games in the regular season it isn't that impressive especially when Harden/Paul lost in the conference finals and that is the farthest they've ever gone together while Curry/Klay have gotten to the finals 5 times and won 3 of them.

What? Harden lost the conference finals. Harden + Paul were 3-2 up despite the rockets missing their 5th best player for more games. And off course, curry and klay having draymond and kd.

Curry and dray have made 5 finals, won 3 rings and suffered little when klay's been dropped. You value wins but curry+dray win more than curry+klay. The gymanstics just go better and better.


Freethedevil you wish to take this up as well?

Are we supposed to hold it against Curry/Klay that Paul had to pull out? Harden/Paul had a golden opportunity to prove to everyone in this year's conference semi-finals when injury felled Durant and the shoe was on the other foot that they could get the job done and back up their bravado from last year—but they still couldn't and that's even with Curry gifting them an ice cold half where he scored zero on their home court. I thought it demonstrated pretty clearly the game was up. Harden/Paul realized it too and that's why they're no longer together. Anyway this season offers up a new season of challengers! How exciting!


Chris Paul isn't in his prime anymore...

You're actually sitting here and arguing that Klay Thompson - the 4th best player on his bloody team is comparable to Harden and CP3. This is some next level stuff. You and Gooner are the MVP's of the PC board.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#55 » by WarriorGM » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:44 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
freethedevil wrote:What? Harden lost the conference finals. Harden + Paul were 3-2 up despite the rockets missing their 5th best player for more games. And off course, curry and klay having draymond and kd.

Curry and dray have made 5 finals, won 3 rings and suffered little when klay's been dropped. You value wins but curry+dray win more than curry+klay. The gymanstics just go better and better.


Freethedevil you wish to take this up as well?

Are we supposed to hold it against Curry/Klay that Paul had to pull out? Harden/Paul had a golden opportunity to prove to everyone in this year's conference semi-finals when injury felled Durant and the shoe was on the other foot that they could get the job done and back up their bravado from last year—but they still couldn't and that's even with Curry gifting them an ice cold half where he scored zero on their home court. I thought it demonstrated pretty clearly the game was up. Harden/Paul realized it too and that's why they're no longer together. Anyway this season offers up a new season of challengers! How exciting!


Chris Paul isn't in his prime anymore...

You're actually sitting here and arguing that Klay Thompson - the 4th best player on his bloody team is comparable to Harden and CP3. This is some next level stuff. You and Gooner are the MVP's of the PC board.


An example of the silly mentality of going solely by reputation rather than results that seems to have made a lot of the evaluations I've seen on this site mind-numbingly ridiculous.

The title of this thread is "How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016?" The answer is because he didn't deserve to. Now you can argue with it but it's quite evident there are a number of people who believe it was a just outcome.

Harden/Paul did not accomplish together as much as Curry/Klay as a duo. They didn't last as long, didn't win as much, and they lost head-to-head. One can argue over the circumstances but the end result is they didn't.

There was a time not too long ago that comparing Paul/Griffin to Curry/Klay I imagine would elicit the same kinds of complaints. Paul/Griffin had the hype and reputation that Curry/Klay did not at the time. But the results since 2015 were so devastatingly one-sided no one is bringing up that rivalry anymore. Same principles and biases at work though.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#56 » by DatAsh » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:52 am

I can see how it happened based on narrative.

I doubt anyone seriously believed that Klay was better than Harden, though.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#57 » by freethedevil » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:08 am

DatAsh wrote:I can see how it happened based on narrative.

I doubt anyone seriously believed that Klay was better than Harden, though.

The general populace has klay, nto draymond as currry's primary sidekick when kd is out. So actually, it's pretty easy to see why they'd believe that.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#58 » by ShotCreator » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:32 am

WarriorGM wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Uh no, I did not realize the Harden/Paul combo out won near every Curry/Klay season ever. Care to explain?

They were 42-4 together in the 2018 RS. 75 win pace.

11-4 in the playoffs.

68 win pace in RS/PS.

That outdoes all the prime Draymond era seasons except 2016-17.

The Curry/Thompson duo has never been close to prime Harden/Paul regardless of how you try and break it down.


One can just pick a stretch of games in a season and calculate pace to show they're better? Is that how it goes?

From what I can see the 2015-2016 Warriors in their first 46 games went 42-4 as well. Actually they got to 48-4.

If the 68-win pace in RS/PS relies on season they didn't play close to 82 games in the regular season it isn't that impressive especially when Harden/Paul lost in the conference finals and that is the farthest they've ever gone together while Curry/Klay have gotten to the finals 5 times and won 3 of them.

That is not a stretch it is literally the entirety of their time together in that season. A stretch would be choosing when they started out 30-1 together.

I am done responding to you. Literally the rings argument, but somehow even worse with the wins BS that you 'contextually' ignore and the goalpost moving to the playoffs, where Harden/Paul were still better.
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Re: How on earth did James Harden not make an All NBA team in 2016? 

Post#59 » by WarriorGM » Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:05 am

ShotCreator wrote:I am done responding to you. Literally the rings argument, but somehow even worse with the wins BS that you 'contextually' ignore and the goalpost moving to the playoffs, where Harden/Paul were still better.


Where Harden/Paul were eliminated—by the team Curry/Klay were on—twice. But yes, rings argument.

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