Peaks project update: #13

[LA Bird]

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76

Reminder that for your vote to count, reasoning is now required for each of the 3 picks.
Please submit your votes by 1 pm August 9 Eastern Time

The rules

Reasoning/statistical support is required for votes to be counted. Please write at least 1 sentence for each of the 3 seasons.
A simple list of names will not be counted.

THE VOTING SYSTEM:

Everyone gives their 1st-ballot choice, 2nd-ballot choice, and 3rd-ballot choice. I'll award 4.5 pts for a 1st ballot, 3 for a 2nd ballot, and 2 for a 3rd. Highest point-total wins the spot (24-hour run-off will then only be done in the unlikely event of a tie).
Players don't get credit for all the votes they receive in a round, we just count the votes (and the points) for the designated year.

So, you can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

Spoiler:

[quote="freethedevil"]
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[quote="LA Bird"]
[quote="Gregoire"]
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[quote="Point-Forward"]
[quote="Jaivl"]
[quote="drza"]
[quote="pandrade83"]
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[quote="HHera187"]
[quote="Bel"]
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[quote="Joey Wheeler"]
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[quote="No-more-rings"]

[liamliam1234]

I really want 2016 Curry voters to start making the case for why he should be above guards who had much better postseasons. Yes, his regular season was phenomenal, but how can anyone look at 2006 Wade or 2008-09 Kobe, or even 2008 Chris Paul, and say, “Yeah, definitely taking 2016 postseason Curry over them.” I know there has been some injury talk, but nagging little injuries are part of basketball. I guess I understand why the Robinson voters are backing him, but those who weigh the postseason should at least favour 2017, or even 2015.

Also...

Erving 1976-77

Wrong year.

[WarriorGM]

I really want 2016 Curry voters to start making the case for why he should be above guards who had much better postseasons. Yes, his regular season was phenomenal, but how can anyone look at 2006 Wade or 2008-09 Kobe, or even 2008 Chris Paul, and say, “Yeah, definitely taking 2016 postseason Curry over them.” I know there has been some injury talk, but nagging little injuries are part of basketball. I guess I understand why the Robinson voters are backing him, but those who weigh the postseason should at least favour 2017, or even 2015.

Really? I thought you said this was discussed already?

Well to begin with this project is about peaks supposedly. In all of NBA history there have been only 13 teams which have produced a 67-win season. The Curry-led Warriors can claim 3 of them and they were done back-to-back-to-back. Was this all just regular season success? No. Curry won 2 championships and was 5 points away in another in a game 7 of a finals in the other. One of these seasons is the record for regular season wins. Another features the record for playoffs wins. The last and perhaps least impressive of the lot saw Curry lead a team of conference finals virgins to a title by knocking out in the playoffs all the other guys selected as First Team All-NBA that year.

Curry and the Warriors were setting records left and right on this run. His statistical efficiency for a volume scorer may be the best ever. He won a unanimous MVP while sitting out 4th quarters regularly. Curry beat the prior and succeeding MVPs who were playing together in a series—after coming back from an injury. During this time he almost indisputably proved he was the best shooter of all-time so much so that it overshadows that I think he also showed he was the best playmaker of all-time as well. He changed the game: offensively threes are now de rigeur; defensively too, to defend against a Warriors-like offense.

That Curry has not been selected already makes this project a joke, a farce. Curry produced record wins and record statistics in the modern era. One could make an argument that he should be second on this list. The criticism directed at Curry is nothing next to what can be leveled at some of the players and years supposedly better than his.

KG? His supposedly best year didn't translate to record winning or team success, didn't even make the finals. Not really impressed with his overall career statistics either. Relies on longevity to make his mark. Oscar? Won once with Kareem in a newly expanded league; never won anything as the guy. Played in an era where playoffs were shorter. Dr. J? The year of his everyone here is raving about is one where the league was split and had a shorter playoffs. For KG and Oscar I may ask how do we know they aren't just producing a shiny looking Westbrook or Harden year? For Dr. J, how do we know he isn't just stomping on a D-league, or more favorably, a weak Eastern Conference the way LeBron did?

Kobe and Wade had much better seasons? Statistically no they didn't. Career statistics? No, they didn't.

[freethedevil]

1. 2017 Curry, atg playoff stats, upped his playoff impact despite playing with a high volume scorer and was the centerpiece for the GOAT team and at full health.
2. 1966 Jerry West. Had a seismic impact on the most effeicent offense in the league. His 1968 season could have been my #1 vote if he was healthy but alas, he was not.
3. Oscar Robertson 1964- Strong impact and his hyper efficiency buoyed the league's best offense.

[liamliam1234]

7 August EDIT: I felt that Kobe should not be placed far below Wade, but after looking at some of the RAPM data I think I need to downgrade him at least a spot. My actual vote should read:
1. 1964 Oscar
2. 2006 Wade
3. 1977 Walton.

For what it is worth, now that Erving is in I have a bunch of these guys clustered together, so small re-evaluations may occur thread to thread.

1. 1964 Oscar Robertson
Again, been covered pretty thoroughly, but the combination of scoring and passing would really not be matched until at least 1987 Magic. If this were a regular season ranking it would be even higher, but he was fine enough in the playoffs for me not to ding him too much.

2. 2006 Wade
Close to Kobe, but the postseason performance here had a slight edge in my opinion. Also a massively impactful regular season, even if not quite his peak in that regard.

3. 2009 Kobe
Kobe’s best season from start to finish. Most of the people here are justifiably not as high on him as casuals are, but we should be able to admit he belongs around top fifteen for peak. His reputation as the league’s most terrifying player is exaggerated, sure, but it is also not wholly undeserved.

I know those are light arguments; they have no chance this round, so I intend to build on their case once that changes. But if a strong debate starts up between them and Curry, I will be more than happy to indulge.

[WarriorGM]

I know those are light arguments; they have no chance this round, so I intend to build on their case once that changes. But if a strong debate starts up between them and Curry, I will be more than happy to indulge.

Go ahead. They don't have an argument against Curry.

[freethedevil]

1. 1964 Oscar Robertson
Again, been covered pretty thoroughly, but the combination of scoring and passing would really not be matched until at least 1987 Magic. If this were a regular season ranking it would be even higher, but he was fine enough in the playoffs for me not to ding him too much.

2. 2006 Wade
Close to Kobe, but the postseason performance here had a slight edge in my opinion. Also a massively impactful regular season, even if not quite his peak in that regard.

3. 2009 Kobe
Kobe’s best season from start to finish. Most of the people here are justifiably not as high on him as casuals are, but we should be able to admit he belongs around top fifteen for peak. His reputation as the league’s most terrifying player is exaggerated, sure, but it is also not wholly undeserved.

I know those are light arguments; they have no chance this round, so I intend to build on their case once that changes. But if a strong debate starts up between them and Curry, I will be more than happy to indulge.

2017 broke impact stats as the lynchpin for the best team ever. I don't see any case against him from anyone on your list.

And no, contrary to what balla says, breaking impact stats is harder with better teammates, not easier.

[liamliam1234]

Which is why I specified 2016, which has received the bulk of his votes thus far.

If you vote for 2017 Curry, I have no strong objection. But if you vote for 2016 Curry I think that you may as well say postseason performance barely factors at all (and again, that is why I understand the Robinson voters lending their support).

[freethedevil]

Which is why I specified 2016, which has received the bulk of his votes thus far.

Yes, but you are putting wade, kobe and robertson's season over curry's 2017 one. I'm wondering why.

[liamliam1234]

Ah, just edited.

But alright, to specify further, I understand the impact advantage, but I also would not say impact metrics are the end-all consideration. I value Wade and Kobe bringing proportionally more to their teams, so to speak, and I have a hard time demarcating Curry’s excellence in the 2017 postseason from Kobe’s excellence in the 2001 postseason. In other words, I think there is a lot of support, both statistical and logical, for how playing next to other ridiculously talented players can make it easier to dominate in your role.

[WarriorGM]

Which is why I specified 2016, which has received the bulk of his votes thus far.

Obviously people selecting 2016 aren't using your playoffs only statistics criteria. But there is a lot impressive even taking only the 2016 playoffs. Curry set a record for overtime scoring. He beat the prior and succeeding MVPs playing simultaneously. Pushed 2 top 10 ppg career scorers in finals to the final minutes of a game 7. He did all this coming off an injury and it is certainly debatable that the only reason the Warriors lost the finals was that they were playing a starter down the last three games.

Combine with the epic regular season and yes there are contextual reasons to believe this season could be picked as peak Curry.

[liamliam1234]

Which is why I specified 2016, which has received the bulk of his votes thus far.

Obviously people selecting 2016 aren't using your playoffs only statistics criteria. But there is a lot impressive even taking only the 2016 playoffs. Curry set a record for overtime scoring. He beat the prior and succeeding MVPs playing simultaneously. Pushed 2 top 10 ppg career scorers in finals to the final minutes of a game 7. He did all this coming off an injury and it is certainly debatable that the only reason the Warriors lost was that they were playing a starter down the last three games.

All of that has already been litigated, and for as much of a prat as he may be I will say I generally agree with E-balla and the other Curry opposers in how they have responded to all those claims, especially in the sense that much of that speaks to the overall quality of the team outside of Curry.

[WarriorGM]

Which is why I specified 2016, which has received the bulk of his votes thus far.

Obviously people selecting 2016 aren't using your playoffs only statistics criteria. But there is a lot impressive even taking only the 2016 playoffs. Curry set a record for overtime scoring. He beat the prior and succeeding MVPs playing simultaneously. Pushed 2 top 10 ppg career scorers in finals to the final minutes of a game 7. He did all this coming off an injury and it is certainly debatable that the only reason the Warriors lost was that they were playing a starter down the last three games.

All of that has already been litigated, and gor as much of a prat as he may be I will say I generally agree with E-balla and the other Curry opposers in how they have responded to all those claims.

I didn't see the litigation. So it is as nothing to me. The choices made show me complete lack of logic since a few of them display far more serious fatal flaws.

especially in the sense that much of that speaks to the overall quality of the team outside of Curry.

Curry turned a perennial losing franchise around. He did that with a 10th and second round pick as his primary partners. He won a championship with guys who hadn't even been to a conference finals previously. There is strong reason to believe that Curry has a beneficial affect on his teammates. When he's been out, the team has tended to look good but rather ordinary. But hey other great players have been matched with great teammates too. Did they do as well as Curry? If the Warriors are considered the greatest team ever it would appear not.

[liamliam1234]

“Serious fatal flaws” such as?

Bulk of the discussion starts here (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1878105&start=20) and carries over through the remainder of that and the following (#10) thread.

[WarriorGM]

“Serious fatal flaws” such as?

Bulk of the discussion starts here (https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1878105&start=20) and carries over through the remainder of that and the following (#10) thread.

I need to go for now so I will read that later but you can see the fatal flaws in one of my posts above. In short: KG and Oscar might as well be Westbrook or Harden. Dr. J. might as well have been dominating G-League.

[liamliam1234]

To your edit, no, literally no player has had a team as stacked as the 2017 Warriors. 2016 is more arguable, but you are deliberately and unjustly under-selling Draymond (arguably more impactful in the playoffs than Curry) and Klay (the ultimate back-up both on defence and when Curry is struggling to score), to say nothing of Iguodala.

Comparing Harden to Robertson is interesting enough that I would hear the case, but there I think the era issue makes them difficult to properly compare. Comparing Garnett to Westbrook is nonsensical and requires a gross misevaluation of Garnett’s defence. Your ABA take is a joke and has been repeatedly and rightly dismissed and addressed. And fittingly, both Erving and Garnett have already been admitted, so neither take is relevant anymore anyway (especially in terms of Wade and Kobe).

[rate_]

1. 2006 Wade - both RS & PS RAPM leader; otherworldly series against an elite defensive Pistons team; Jordanesque Finals performance en route to 1st franchise title even though Mavs clearly had the more talented roster.

2. 1977 Walton - another player with high impactful peak and one of the greatest all around bigs, even though it was short lived. Walton’s team struggled when he didn’t play and thrived when he did. His unique playmaking and defensive instincts at the center position alternated at perfect ease between an alluring persuasive calm and a roaring tempest.

3. 1966 West - Great defender as well as one of the best scorers and playmaking guards in lesgue history.

[Timmyyy]

I won't give my own opinion on this topic but want to comment on a few things.

In all of NBA history there have been only 13 teams which have produced a 67-win season. The Curry-led Warriors can claim 3 of them and they were done back-to-back-to-back. Was this all just regular season success? No. Curry won 2 championships and was 5 points away in another in a game 7 of a finals in the other. One of these seasons is the record for regular season wins. Another features the record for playoffs wins. The last and perhaps least impressive of the lot saw Curry lead a team of conference finals virgins to a title by knocking out in the playoffs all the other guys selected as First Team All-NBA that year.

You write all of this following this sentence.

Well to begin with this project is about peaks supposedly.

This should answer why all you wrote in the above paragraph is irrelevant except for the part that is related to the year you think is his peak.
Liam specifically asked about 16 and his concerns are absolutely right. The goal of basketball is to win a chip. You can't win a ring without succeeding in the PO's no matter how good your RS was. Curry wasn't good in the PO in 16 and he missed games. It doesn't matter if he was injured or had other troubles, he didn't play well and missed games. When your best player is having such a PS your chances to succeed are really low. In Curry's case he was really fortunate to have a great team to make up for it. So his critique is absolutely justified. If you disagree show why and don't act insulted (you just pointed to narrative stuff and not really something that is showing his superiority on an individual basis, despite that there are a lot of hints to this [not necessarily in 16 but in other years]).

That Curry has not been selected already makes this project a joke, a farce. Curry produced record wins and record statistics in the modern era. One could make an argument that he should be second on this list. The criticism directed at Curry is nothing next to what can be leveled at some of the players and years supposedly better than his.

At that point you just sound like a little boy/girl salty that his/her favorite player isn't already voted in. You could have just brought up good arguments in the 2nd thread if he has a case for it or all the other threads for that matter. If they would have been convincing, some would have followed your lead.

KG? His supposedly best year didn't translate to record winning or team success, didn't even make the finals. Not really impressed with his overall career statistics either. Relies on longevity to make his mark. Oscar? Won once with Kareem in a newly expanded league; never won anything as the guy. Played in an era where playoffs were shorter. Dr. J? The year of his everyone here is raving about is one where the league was split and had a shorter playoffs. For KG and Oscar I may ask how do we know they aren't just producing a shiny looking Westbrook or Harden year? For Dr. J, how do we know he isn't just stomping on a D-league, or more favorably, a weak Eastern Conference the way LeBron did?

This first part of this paragraph just needs two words: 'team game'. You know why Curry's teams were record winning? Definitely partially because Curry was so good, but even more so because he had an impact monster in Dray, an off ball genius like Klay, another big time scorer like Durant, role players like Iggy, Bogut, Barnes and so on. Most of them all at once.

Just compare that to the other guys teams and you should know why they weren't breaking any records.

For the bolded parts. We know it with KG since his +/- metrics always were GOAT like (within the +/- era). They far exceeded Curry's impact, although Curry was great in that departement in his own right.

Oscar is actually the WOWY darling of the 60 if I have this one right in my mind. It isn't something exact but it hints to Oscar having a huge impact on his teams success even if his teams weren't good.

You can bring a lot of good indicators to why Curry should be voted in in this thread or should have already been voted in by now (+/- stats, good playoffs in 15, great playoffs in 17), but pointing to team success when he had such a stacked team like no one else (maybe in history) isn't a good indicator, neither is pointing to narrative like 'he was breaking the game' (which should be reflected in superiority of data anyways no need to make a fairytale out of it).

[HHera187]

N.1 BILL WALTON 1977
The best defensive season in the pre 3point era after Bill Russell. All time level passing for a Big, and solid scoring ability.
Wcf Vs Kareem Lakers: 19/15/6 and 2.3 blk per game, Chamberlainesque.
Finals Vs Dr. J Philly: 18/19/5 and 3.7 (!!!) blk per game.

N.2 STEPHEN CURRY 2016
Goat offensive regular season, GS was a 50 W team. Despite the injuries and bad finals, he was the best player on the court in the WCF VS OKC.

N.3 STEPHEN CURRY 2017
His best postseason. He was the leader in every advanced statistic of the best team ever, another all time level offensive CLINIC. 9.1 OBPM in postseason.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using RealGM mobile app

[Gregoire]

1. 2016 Curry. GOAT RS + stellar playoffs. One of the best offensive players in a vacuum.
2. 1990 Barkley. GOAT offensive bigmen + neutral defense.
3. 1977 Walton. GOAT bigmen passer + great defense.