What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe?

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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#101 » by JordansBulls » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:31 am

mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
mcraft wrote:I agree. There is so many things involved, but it makes the discussion interesting.


It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years

Russell came into the league playing with the league mvp winner and ROY. He also never had to win 4 series in a year. For 8 titles he only had to win 2 series. From 1984 and onward you had to win 4 series a year for a title. Russell won 25 series for 11 titles, MJ 24 series for 6 titles, so basically the same considering all things.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#102 » by liamliam1234 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:01 am

If only the man who lost all of one healthy series (as an underdog) could have beaten up on eight-seeds; then maybe his accomplishments could be taken at face value. :roll:
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#103 » by Dr Aki » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:25 am

As the better talent? 2005
As the better player? 2009
On all-time lists? 2013
Overall better career? 2016
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#104 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:03 am

Colbinii wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.


LeBron gets his stats at the expense of his teammates, that's the difference. His results show it. I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.


Actually Gooner, the results show the exact opposite.

2014 Wade w/ LeBron: +2.5 Points Per 100
2014 Wade w/o LeBron: -7.6 Points per 100

In fact when looking into it further
for the 2014 post-season when Wade was without LeBron, Wade's individual statistics increased but the team performance, especially defensively, plummeted.

In 2013 we see Wade struggle to score without James, especially in the restricted area.

In 2012 we see an even larger dip in the Heat's performance with James and Wade at the helm.


That's because they played in a LeBron system. Even Miami coaches liek Fizdale and players like Bosh have admitted that Wade had to have talk with LeBron after their first season, and he had to let the team be completely built around him becasue that's the only way he can play.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#105 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:05 am

G35 wrote:The year when Lebron won his 5th ring he got into the conversation...when Lebron won his 6th ring he passed him up.....


LeBron fans engage in so many of these hypotheticals, that it woulnd't surprise me if they pretended he won 6 rings lol.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#106 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:10 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
G35 wrote:
MVP's...All-NBA...All Star...DPOY...stats...a lot of players have those...few players have titles.....

way more people have titles than most of those things.


What about great players? There are so many without a title.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#107 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:13 am

Colbinii wrote:
G35 wrote:The year when Lebron won his 5th ring he got into the conversation...when Lebron won his 6th ring he passed him up.....



It's a shame neither Kobe nor LeBron can hold a candle to John Havlicek. Hell, neither can Jordan.


It's not just the fact that LeBron has "only" 3 rings, it's those 6 finals losses that really put things into perspective. He played in a very weak eastern conference and he had superteams in most of those years he was making the finals, so he had his opportunities for titles. That's why I don't wanna hear these excuses. All time great player, but there is something missing there.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#108 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:19 am

mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
mcraft wrote:I agree. There is so many things involved, but it makes the discussion interesting.


It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#109 » by Franco » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:57 am

Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.


TL;DR:

“Context only matters when I say so”
About 2018 Cavs:

euroleague wrote:His team would be considered a super-team in other eras, and that's why commentators like Charles Barkley criticize LBJ for his complaining. He has talent on his team, he just doesn't try during the regular season
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#110 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:01 am

Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.

"That was the pre post-modern era. The league got diluted with expansion. The skill level and atheleticism were not comparable to the lebron era."

:lol:

TL;DR:

“Context only matters when I say so”

"Recency bias only applies to my guy!"
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#111 » by 70sFan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:03 am

Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.

No, you can't consider him over Jordan because you are extremely biased. Russell won title in a 14 teams league and the level of play was more comparable to the 80s and 90s than 90s is to 2010s. Russell won titles in 1957 and in 1969, two completely different eras.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#112 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 am

Gooner wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
G35 wrote:The year when Lebron won his 5th ring he got into the conversation...when Lebron won his 6th ring he passed him up.....



It's a shame neither Kobe nor LeBron can hold a candle to John Havlicek. Hell, neither can Jordan.


It's not just the fact that LeBron has "only" 3 rings, it's those 6 finals losses that really put things into perspective. He played in a very weak eastern conference and he had superteams in most of those years he was making the finals, so he had his opportunities for titles. That's why I don't wanna hear these excuses. All time great player, but there is something missing there.


LeBron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland and made the Finals 5 times. Over that entire period, the Cavs had a negative point differential when LeBron was on the bench all 11 seasons. The team went 14-39 when he didn’t play. And the best teammate he ever had played with had 7/7 losing seasons without him. Superteams indeed.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#113 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:07 am

70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.

No, you can't consider him over Jordan because you are extremely biased. Russell won title in a 14 teams league and the level of play was more comparable to the 80s and 90s than 90s is to 2010s. Russell won titles in 1957 and in 1969, two completely different eras.

Russell fought racism while jordan sold shoes. Russell coached his team to b2b wins while jordan punched teammates. As gooner would say:
All time great player, but there is something missing there.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#114 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am

freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:
That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.

No, you can't consider him over Jordan because you are extremely biased. Russell won title in a 14 teams league and the level of play was more comparable to the 80s and 90s than 90s is to 2010s. Russell won titles in 1957 and in 1969, two completely different eras.

Russell fought racism while jordan sold shoes. Russell coached his team to b2b wins while jordan punched teammates. As gooner would say:
All time great player, but there is something missing there.


What's wrong with selling shoes? Jordan made NIKE, and he is the reason why LeBron is marketed the way he is today.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#115 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:12 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Colbinii wrote:

It's a shame neither Kobe nor LeBron can hold a candle to John Havlicek. Hell, neither can Jordan.


It's not just the fact that LeBron has "only" 3 rings, it's those 6 finals losses that really put things into perspective. He played in a very weak eastern conference and he had superteams in most of those years he was making the finals, so he had his opportunities for titles. That's why I don't wanna hear these excuses. All time great player, but there is something missing there.


LeBron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland and made the Finals 5 times. Over that entire period, the Cavs had a negative point differential when LeBron was on the bench all 11 seasons. The team went 14-39 when he didn’t play. And the best teammate he ever had played with had 7/7 losing seasons without him. Superteams indeed.


LeBron, Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson, Korver, Dellavedova, Deron Williams, Richard Jefferson, Shumpert...those teams were stacked.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#116 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:13 am

Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
70sFan wrote:No, you can't consider him over Jordan because you are extremely biased. Russell won title in a 14 teams league and the level of play was more comparable to the 80s and 90s than 90s is to 2010s. Russell won titles in 1957 and in 1969, two completely different eras.

Russell fought racism while jordan sold shoes. Russell coached his team to b2b wins while jordan punched teammates. As gooner would say:
All time great player, but there is something missing there.


What's wrong with selling shoes? Jordan made NIKE, and he is the reason why LeBron is marketed the way he is today.

What? Nike started 20 years before jordan was a thing and was on the come up a decade prior. No, "Nike" made jordan's brand, not vice versa. Bball players are drops in nike's ocean.

Here's the factually accurate attempt at what you're doing:

Naismith made basketball thereby making jordan.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#117 » by iggymcfrack » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 am

70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.

No, you can't consider him over Jordan because you are extremely biased. Russell won title in a 14 teams league and the level of play was more comparable to the 80s and 90s than 90s is to 2010s. Russell won titles in 1957 and in 1969, two completely different eras.


‘69 was a pretty good year for the league. Last season pre-merger. Enough teams you couldn’t coast to a ring, but not enough to dilute the talent. I wouldn’t agree that it was actually closer to the mid-90s than the mid-90s are to today in terms of talent, but they were certainly somewhat comparable jumps. Plus LeBron faced much tougher talent within his era too. Start comparing the 1968 Philadelphia 76ers to the 1988 Detroit Pistons or the 1997 Utah Jazz to the 2017 Golden State Warriors and this era comparison looks much less favorable to Mr. Jordan.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#118 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:17 am

freethedevil wrote:
Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Russell fought racism while jordan sold shoes. Russell coached his team to b2b wins while jordan punched teammates. As gooner would say:


What's wrong with selling shoes? Jordan made NIKE, and he is the reason why LeBron is marketed the way he is today.

What? Nike started 20 years before jordan was a thing and was on the come up a decade prior. No, "Nike" made jordan's brand, not vice versa. Bball players are drops in nike's ocean.


Jordan made NIKE's brand.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#119 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:24 am

Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Gooner wrote:
What's wrong with selling shoes? Jordan made NIKE, and he is the reason why LeBron is marketed the way he is today.

What? Nike started 20 years before jordan was a thing and was on the come up a decade prior. No, "Nike" made jordan's brand, not vice versa. Bball players are drops in nike's ocean.


Jordan made NIKE's brand.

No. Bowerman made nike in 1965. Nike made "nike-air" in 1979. Nike-air then made jordan when he was still a rookie on a team with a losing record.

Get your history straight.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#120 » by Franco » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:32 am

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
It's not just the fact that LeBron has "only" 3 rings, it's those 6 finals losses that really put things into perspective. He played in a very weak eastern conference and he had superteams in most of those years he was making the finals, so he had his opportunities for titles. That's why I don't wanna hear these excuses. All time great player, but there is something missing there.


LeBron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland and made the Finals 5 times. Over that entire period, the Cavs had a negative point differential when LeBron was on the bench all 11 seasons. The team went 14-39 when he didn’t play. And the best teammate he ever had played with had 7/7 losing seasons without him. Superteams indeed.


LeBron, Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson, Korver, Dellavedova, Deron Williams, Richard Jefferson, Shumpert...those teams were stacked.


:lol:

Not only you use basically out of the league Deron Williams to say a team was stacked, but you also created an alternate reality version of the Cavaliers, since some of those players never played together for us.
About 2018 Cavs:

euroleague wrote:His team would be considered a super-team in other eras, and that's why commentators like Charles Barkley criticize LBJ for his complaining. He has talent on his team, he just doesn't try during the regular season

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