What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe?

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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#121 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:36 am

Franco wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
LeBron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland and made the Finals 5 times. Over that entire period, the Cavs had a negative point differential when LeBron was on the bench all 11 seasons. The team went 14-39 when he didn’t play. And the best teammate he ever had played with had 7/7 losing seasons without him. Superteams indeed.


LeBron, Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson, Korver, Dellavedova, Deron Williams, Richard Jefferson, Shumpert...those teams were stacked.


:lol:

Not only you use basically out of the league Deron Williams to say a team was stacked, but you also created an alternate reality version of the Cavaliers, since some of those players never played together for us.

Kyrie's so talented he helped a conference finalist get lol stomped as the wade to hoford's lebron
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#122 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:36 am

Franco wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
LeBron spent 11 seasons in Cleveland and made the Finals 5 times. Over that entire period, the Cavs had a negative point differential when LeBron was on the bench all 11 seasons. The team went 14-39 when he didn’t play. And the best teammate he ever had played with had 7/7 losing seasons without him. Superteams indeed.


LeBron, Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson, Korver, Dellavedova, Deron Williams, Richard Jefferson, Shumpert...those teams were stacked.


:lol:

Not only you use basically out of the league Deron Williams to say a team was stacked, but you also created an alternate reality version of the Cavaliers, since some of those players never played together for us.


Williams was the guy LeBron wanted, and he should have been a good backup point guard. Adjustment to LeBron system is never easy though. All these guys have played together, except Dellavedova, ok. Williams was his replacement.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#123 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:37 am

Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
It makes it interesting until the same people talking rings ignore Bill Russell and the rest of the 60s Celtics.

Finals MVP is another fun one.
Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.


You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. Jordan also only started winning when the Celtics and Lakers got old.

If the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders? You would have laughably bad teams in the NBA, basically Euro clubs.


Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
G35 wrote:
MVP's...All-NBA...All Star...DPOY...stats...a lot of players have those...few players have titles.....

way more people have titles than most of those things.


What about great players? There are so many without a title.


There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#124 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:37 am

freethedevil wrote:
Franco wrote:
Gooner wrote:
LeBron, Irving, Love, Smith, Thompson, Korver, Dellavedova, Deron Williams, Richard Jefferson, Shumpert...those teams were stacked.


:lol:

Not only you use basically out of the league Deron Williams to say a team was stacked, but you also created an alternate reality version of the Cavaliers, since some of those players never played together for us.

Kyrie's so talented he helped a conference finalist get lol stomped as the wade to hoford's lebron


They lost to 60 win team, no shame in that.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#125 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:41 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
mcraft wrote:Yep. The 6 for 6 crowd conveniently ignore 11 in 13 years


That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.


You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?


Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:way more people have titles than most of those things.


What about great players? There are so many without a title.


There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better then, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#126 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:46 am

Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Franco wrote:
:lol:

Not only you use basically out of the league Deron Williams to say a team was stacked, but you also created an alternate reality version of the Cavaliers, since some of those players never played together for us.

Kyrie's so talented he helped a conference finalist get lol stomped as the wade to hoford's lebron


They lost to 60 win team, no shame in that.

Playing second fiddle to hoford is pretty shameful.

Having a .25 record with a team when bron dips is also pretty shameful.

Meanwhile pippen came second in mvp voting when jordan dipped and after lecoasting the rs, the bulls were playing title-worthy hoops when the playoffs rolled around.

It's amazing what someone who can
a. anchor a defense
b. run an offense
is capable of.

Meanwhile when russell dipped as a 36 year old player coach, his team pulled a lebron-less cavs.

MJ's teammate argument's about as valid as the notion of him "making" a brand whose other athletes have vastly more pull than every basketball player combined.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#127 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:48 am

Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.


You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?


Gooner wrote:
What about great players? There are so many without a title.


There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#128 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?




There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.

Does the OP realize Kobe barely won his only mvp over chris paul?
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#129 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:50 am

freethedevil wrote:
Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Kyrie's so talented he helped a conference finalist get lol stomped as the wade to hoford's lebron


They lost to 60 win team, no shame in that.

Playing second fiddle to hoford is pretty shameful.

Having a .25 record with a team when bron dips is also pretty shameful.

Meanwhile pippen came second in mvp voting when jordan dipped and after lecoasting the rs, the bulls were playing title-worthy hoops when the playoffs rolled around.

It's amazing what someone who can
a. anchor a defense
b. run an offense
is capable of.

Meanwhile when russell dipped as a 36 year old player coach, his team pulled a lebron-less cavs.

MJ's teammate argument's about as valid as the notion of him "making" a brand whose other athletes have vastly more pull than every basketball player combined.


He played a second fiddle to Horfrod only in your imagination. Bulls doing well without MJ actually speaks in his favour. He actually left some foundation behind him. Something stronger than "LeBron system". MJ was a true team player who made his teammaets better.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#130 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:50 am

freethedevil wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.

Does the OP realize Kobe barely won his only mvp over chris paul?

I was going to bring up how much more difficult it is to win an MVP than a title by referencing Kobe himself, but I figure Gooner would use mental gymnastics around that.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#131 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:53 am

Gooner wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Gooner wrote:
They lost to 60 win team, no shame in that.

Playing second fiddle to hoford is pretty shameful.

Having a .25 record with a team when bron dips is also pretty shameful.

Meanwhile pippen came second in mvp voting when jordan dipped and after lecoasting the rs, the bulls were playing title-worthy hoops when the playoffs rolled around.

It's amazing what someone who can
a. anchor a defense
b. run an offense
is capable of.

Meanwhile when russell dipped as a 36 year old player coach, his team pulled a lebron-less cavs.

MJ's teammate argument's about as valid as the notion of him "making" a brand whose other athletes have vastly more pull than every basketball player combined.


He played a second fiddle to Horfrod only in your imagination. Bulls doing well without MJ actually speaks in his favour. He actually left some foundation behind him. Something stronger than "LeBron system". MJ was a true team player who made his teammaets better.

Was jordan gm? Or are you desperately trying to find a counter for russell actually coaching his own team to b2b w's?

I'm thinking the latter.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#132 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:55 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote: It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.

Does the OP realize Kobe barely won his only mvp over chris paul?

I was going to bring up how much more difficult it is to win an MVP than a title by referencing Kobe himself, but I figure Gooner would use mental gymnastics around that.

Kobe was closer to losing mvp to ringless paul than garnett was to a 5x champ at his apex. MVP'S are so easy to win. :roll:
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#133 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:58 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?




There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.


Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rose has an MVP, Iverson has an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#134 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:03 am

Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.


Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rsoe has an MVP, Iverson ahs an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...

"Gasol was a co-leader of that team. Kobe needed him, as dominant as he was."

And no, your question is not legitmate. I can take two nba champions any given year and find more mvp less title winners than there are ringless mvp's in the history of the game.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#135 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:07 am

freethedevil wrote:
Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote: It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.


Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rsoe has an MVP, Iverson ahs an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...

"Gasol was a co-leader of that team. Kobe needed him, as dominant as he was."

And no, your question is not legitmate. I can take two nba champions any given year and find more mvp less title winners than there are ringless mvp's in the history of the game.


I wouldn't call Gasol a co-leader, but he was definitely one of the strongest second options I've seen. I appreciate team basketball, and I don't put down Kobe's teammates, like you guys do with LeBron. Gasol is a player I like a lot.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#136 » by 70sFan » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:11 am

Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
That was a pre modern era, there was like 9 teams in the league, skill level and athleticism were not comparable to Jordan era. That's why Bill Russell can't be considered the GOAT over him.


You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?


Gooner wrote:
What about great players? There are so many without a title.


There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better then, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.


But the same logic can be applied to 1960s basketball compared to 1990s. The game was a bit different in 1960s mostly because of different rules but 1960s players were already big, athletic, skilled and not only whit like at the beginning of the 1950s. Find me one all-star from late 60s than would be bad player in 1990s.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#137 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:12 am

Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better than, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.
It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.
There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.


Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rose has an MVP, Iverson has an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...


Saying MVP is harder to get than a title is pretty objective. Allen Iverson getting an MVP but no title isn't proof that it is easier to obtain an MVP, for every Allen Iverson there are two Gasols (literally). Two Mournings. Two Pierces. Two Allens. Two Greens. Two Thompsons. Two Ginobilis. Two Parkers.


As for the bold, you have to acknowledge that the inverse is true. Kevin Durant won an MVP but no title despite playing with Russell Westbrook. He then got two NBA titles and did it pretty easily - why is that? Did Durant become way better, or did he just join a team with more great players?

Again, this is an objective thing. MVP can only be won by one player every year, and if the media isn't bored they will give it to the same great players. Championships are won by teams, and championship teams consist of many great players. Almost every year two or three hall of fame caliber players win titles, not MVPs.

It is also easier for a player to win multiple titles than it is multiple MVPs - you are only taking into account people who have done each feat one time. When you realize that teams tend to repeat and there isn't media fatigue involved in winning a title, it is easier to collect 2 or 3 rings when you have made a championship team.

Kawhi Leonard will be fortunate to ever win an MVP, and if he does - he will have ended up winning more rings than MVPs 100% guaranteed.

It is a tremendous feat to get MVP two times because the media will be heavily bias toward doing that.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#138 » by freethedevil » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:16 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote: It's as much as a myth as saying players in 1988 are more athletic than players in 1969. There were players who aren't that athletic by today's standards in both the 60s and 90s, your criticism isn't that sound - Steve Kerr is closer to a 60s athlete than a 10s athlete.

There are way more great players who do not have MVPs than titles. Kevin McHale was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. Chris Bosh was a great player, he was never that close to winning an MVP. John Stockton was a great player, he was significantly closer to winning a title than an MVP. Not just Pippens (who never would have gotten an MVP even if Jordan wasn't there), but studs like Wade, Havilcek, Frazier.

Leading to a team isn't relevant in your example, because you said Kobe Bryant has more rings than Lebron James, that isn't true unless you are counting the rings he won when he wasn't the leader of his team.


Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rose has an MVP, Iverson has an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...


Saying MVP is harder to get than a title is pretty objective. Allen Iverson getting an MVP but no title isn't proof that it is easier to obtain an MVP, for every Allen Iverson there are two Gasols (literally). Two Mournings. Two Pierces'. Two Allen's. Two Greens. Two Thompsons. Two Ginobilis. Two Parkers.

You're being way too conservative here. There's 14 players on title winning rosters. There's one mvp. It is objectively 14 x harder to win an mvp.

OP should math better.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#139 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:19 am

freethedevil wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Kobe was a co-leader of that team. He was certianly the closer and Shq needed him, as dominant as he was. The point is not really about if there is more great players with MVP or a title, even though it's a legitimate question still. The point is that the title is more difficult to get. Westbrrok has an MVP, but he couldn't win a title with Durant. 22 year old Rose has an MVP, Iverson has an MVP, even though he clearly wasn't a championship caliber player, like Westbrook. Nash has 2 MVP's, no title...


Saying MVP is harder to get than a title is pretty objective. Allen Iverson getting an MVP but no title isn't proof that it is easier to obtain an MVP, for every Allen Iverson there are two Gasols (literally). Two Mournings. Two Pierces'. Two Allen's. Two Greens. Two Thompsons. Two Ginobilis. Two Parkers.

You're being way too conservative here. There's 14 players on title winning rosters. There's one mvp. It is objectively 14 x harder to win an mvp.

OP should math better.

He added the caveat of "great players" only. And Gooner isn't the OP.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#140 » by Gooner » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:19 am

70sFan wrote:
Gooner wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
You could say the same comparing Jordan's era to James era. And 1969 is more comparable to 80s basketball than 2010s, so if you're criticizing Bill Russell you are criticizing Jordan.

And Bill Russell won when the league was much bigger than that, and Michael Jordan only won when the league had expanded and diluted its talent pool. The competition thing makes no more sense, if the NBA expanded today to 36 teams would it be more difficult to win an NBA championship for the current contenders?




There are more great players who do not have an MVP or DPOY than a title. MVP is significantly harder to get than an NBA title.


I know there was gonna be someone comparing Jordan's era to this era that way, but it's simply not true. Athleticism, strength and skill was on the same level in the 90's as it is now. Some aspects of the game are better now, some were better then, but the biggest myth is that today's league is much more athletic.

There are so many MVP's who don't have a title, but most of the guys who led their teams to championships have a MVP.


But the same logic can be applied to 1960s basketball compared to 1990s. The game was a bit different in 1960s mostly because of different rules but 1960s players were already big, athletic, skilled and not only whit like at the beginning of the 1950s. Find me one all-star from late 60s than would be bad player in 1990s.


I'm not trying to disrespect the players from the 60's, I respect what they did for the game. But they were definitely skinnier and less athletic than players in the 90's. I'm not saying all stars form that era would be bad players in the 90's, but someone like Tommy Heinsohn wouldn't have the same impact.

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