What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe?

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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#61 » by BigRedDog » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:43 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:i coudl see the argument for 2005 but realistically it was 2006 (probably) or 2007 for sure..

Kobe had terrific longevity but his peak was never anywhere near Lebron's (or even D-Wade for that matter)

A lot of people for whatever reason just don't seem to recognize that Lebron was a really good basketball player and should be compared against the true greats. Not just the "very goods"


Kobe was a great. Top 3 for his generation. I think there was a strong argument for both up until 2008 when LeBron started to edge ahead and then he was clearly above him in 2009. It was mostly Kobe fans still arguing for him in the 09/10 years based on him winning rings but LeBron at that time was playing at a level that only a few other players had ever reached.


Sorry but i just cant get there... Kobe was never "Great"... there was a 2.5 season stretch between Shaq leaving and Gasol joining the Lakers where they had a combined record of BELOW .500 which is just unheard of for any "great" player.

I mean Lebron was winning 60+ games when he left Cleveland... on teams that quickly became 20 game winners when he left.... so thats ~40 wins. Kobe was BELOW .500 over 2.5 seasons with numerous good players like Odom, Caron Butler, Bynum, Fisher, Kwame Brown, etc... kobe has this weird mystique from his legion of fans.. but they cant explain why in his prime he never did anything... and why he was never the best player on a title team...

I mean Kobe was great... Im not taking away his all-star appearances because at least 2/3rd of them were probably legitimate and well deserved. But Kobe was great in the way that Clyde Drexler was great... i think prime Drexler was probably a little better but Kobe bested him in longevity.

But if you tried to say Drexler was ever better than Lebron people wouldn't irrationally defend it... it's just a Kobe thing...
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#62 » by Gooner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:17 am

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Gooner wrote:All these individuals play a TEAM SPORT, and they can only be judged through the context of their teams, and their results. Most of you LeBron fans always take him and his numbers out of the context, and you judge him only on that, always trying to tear down his teammates. His fans always resort to that Horry argument aswell, it's just silly. Horry was a role player, we are comparing all time greats here, and rings are huge part of the equation.

OK, let's look at some context. 2017 finals, game 2, James sits for 2 and a half minutes. Warriors lead grows from 4 to 12. Game three James goes to the bench with a three point lead. When he reenters less than two minutes later, they are down seven. That "super team's" record in games James didn't play was atrocious.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm "tearing down his teammates". I guess in your world, they should get credit for...well I honestly don't know what. I'm supposed to look at the guy who played well and say it's his fault they lost and look at the guys who played lousy and ignore their play as a possible factor in the losses.

James' teammates played great in the years he won and deserve plenty of credit. Mario Chalmers of all people is an unsung hero in the 2013 finals game six win. Several role players stepped up in the 2012 finals helping the Heat cruise to an easy title. Bosh, even though his offense wasn't flashy, was very important to a very good Heat defense in the years they won. Tristan Thompson and Jr Smith were great in the 2016 finals and Irving was huge for them in game 5 and with the big shot in Game 7. I'm happy to credit his teammates where they deserve it. And James was awful by his standards in the 2011 finals.

So I'm willing to credit teammates where they deserve it and blame James where he deserves it. But outside of 2011, his teammates were not up to the task and James' can't reasonably be blamed for the losses. They were facing far superior teams. No all time great won titles facing a talent disparity as large as what James faced in the 2007, 2014, 2015, 2017 and 2018 finals. So your argument is essentially that James is flawed because he couldn't do something that no one else is capable of.


Warriors can make runs, and of course there is a bigger opportunity to do that when LeBron sits. I'm not denying that LeBron was the best player on the team, but Warriors were making runs with him on the floor too, like in those last two minutes of game 3, when KD outplayed him badly. All these things you mentioned are just excuses. Rockets took Warriors to 7 games, Cleveland lost in 5 easy.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#63 » by Gooner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:22 am

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Let's go through those losses.

2007. His team is at a massive talent disadvantage playing against three hall of famers in their primes and one of his best teammates was hobbled.

2011. Played lousy. This is on him.

2014. Heat couldn't play defense at all. Wade was lousy. Bosh wasn't good. Battier could barely play. LeBron could have averaged 40 and they still would have lost. James wasn't compiling stats to the detriment of the team. If anything he needed to be more selfish, but they still probably lose because their defense was hopeless.

2015. Massive talent disadvantage yet he implausibly stretched it to six.

2017. Large talent disadvantage and his team played no defense. The offense was elite. James wasn't compiling stats to the detriment of the offense. You can't win without defense though and the Cavs didn't have any.

2018. Massive talent disadvantage.

Three of the six finals losses were pretty much unwinnable for any player ever, two were lost because the defense was terrible and one was lost because he had the worst series of his career. Only one is reasonably blamed on a flaw in James.


2014 he had a super team, and his team lost by the record margin in NBA finals history. Yes, Wade was out of his prime, but so were Duncan and Ginobili, and Parker was hobbled. They ouldn't play defense, they couldn't play offense, they just got waxed by the Spurs, and LeBron definitely has to have his share of the blame as their best player.

In 2017 there was no large talent disadvantage. Warriors brought Durant to match up with James, Cavs had the guy to match up with Curry in Kyrie, so it's fair. Klay was the third guy for the Warriors, and Love was that guy for the Cavs. Warriors were more talented, but it was not a big difference, especially if you believe LeBron was better than Durant at that point.

Team played no defense because LeBron wasn't playing it at that point. And it's not like it was close, Warriors won that in 5, they never had any trouble at home, all their wins were convincing, and they won first game away from home when KD outplayed LeBron in clutch, and nailed that 3 in his face. He has no excuses for that series, KD outplayed him.


Super team my ass. That team was super terrible. Wade and Bosh were both borderline washed and every other player on the team that played significant minutes would be out of the league in a couple years. It was comparable to AD’s supporting cast in New Orleans last year. The series was a complete mismatch despite LeBron playing out of his mind. There isn’t a single player in the history of the NBA who could have made that Finals competitive on their best day.



This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#64 » by Gooner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:27 am

Pelly24 wrote:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Gooner wrote:
2014 he had a super team, and his team lost by the record margin in NBA finals history. Yes, Wade was out of his prime, but so were Duncan and Ginobili, and Parker was hobbled. They ouldn't play defense, they couldn't play offense, they just got waxed by the Spurs, and LeBron definitely has to have his share of the blame as their best player.

In 2017 there was no large talent disadvantage. Warriors brought Durant to match up with James, Cavs had the guy to match up with Curry in Kyrie, so it's fair. Klay was the third guy for the Warriors, and Love was that guy for the Cavs. Warriors were more talented, but it was not a big difference, especially if you believe LeBron was better than Durant at that point.

Team played no defense because LeBron wasn't playing it at that point. And it's not like it was close, Warriors won that in 5, they never had any trouble at home, all their wins were convincing, and they won first game away from home when KD outplayed LeBron in clutch, and nailed that 3 in his face. He has no excuses for that series, KD outplayed him.


2014 Heat were not a super team. You are blinded by names instead of looking at demonstrated ability.

KD didn't outplay LeBron in that series. And I don't know if you're aware of this but defense requires five players. One player, especially a wing like LeBron cannot create elite defense singlehandedly. Love and Irving were both lousy defenders and JR and TT never showed the same intensity after they got paid.



The KD warriors are really anomalies that you can't really compare to any other team ever. That team was pretty much unbeatable, even if the Rockets had a decent shot to do so (CP3 and Harden were a better duo than LBJ and Kyrie). There's just no other situation I can remember someone who's arguably the greatest scorer of all time facing single coverage. 2017 Cavs beat pretty much any other team


LeBron faces single coverage too, and so does almost every star today, because three point shooting is the main concern for today's defenses. LeBron has been surrounded with elite shooting in Cleveland, and that gives him a lot of freedom. He has been guarded by Rozier and Curry on swtiches, in 2018 playoffs, and against Boston it was single coverage mostly. That tells you all you need to know.

No team is unbeatable, everybody thought big 3 Miami was gonna be unbeatable, but they lost to Dallas when nobody expected it. And Warriors definitely looked beatable against the Rockets, you have said it yourself.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#65 » by uberhikari » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:31 pm

There's, like, no possible argument that Kobe was better than LeBron in 2008. LeBron was a better defender and a way better offensive player.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#66 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:35 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
2014 he had a super team, and his team lost by the record margin in NBA finals history. Yes, Wade was out of his prime, but so were Duncan and Ginobili, and Parker was hobbled. They ouldn't play defense, they couldn't play offense, they just got waxed by the Spurs, and LeBron definitely has to have his share of the blame as their best player.

In 2017 there was no large talent disadvantage. Warriors brought Durant to match up with James, Cavs had the guy to match up with Curry in Kyrie, so it's fair. Klay was the third guy for the Warriors, and Love was that guy for the Cavs. Warriors were more talented, but it was not a big difference, especially if you believe LeBron was better than Durant at that point.

Team played no defense because LeBron wasn't playing it at that point. And it's not like it was close, Warriors won that in 5, they never had any trouble at home, all their wins were convincing, and they won first game away from home when KD outplayed LeBron in clutch, and nailed that 3 in his face. He has no excuses for that series, KD outplayed him.


Super team my ass. That team was super terrible. Wade and Bosh were both borderline washed and every other player on the team that played significant minutes would be out of the league in a couple years. It was comparable to AD’s supporting cast in New Orleans last year. The series was a complete mismatch despite LeBron playing out of his mind. There isn’t a single player in the history of the NBA who could have made that Finals competitive on their best day.



This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk won in 2011 because his boys stepped up and the best player on the other team had the worst series of his career. That series has nothing in common with 2014.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#67 » by Pg81 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:46 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Super team my ass. That team was super terrible. Wade and Bosh were both borderline washed and every other player on the team that played significant minutes would be out of the league in a couple years. It was comparable to AD’s supporting cast in New Orleans last year. The series was a complete mismatch despite LeBron playing out of his mind. There isn’t a single player in the history of the NBA who could have made that Finals competitive on their best day.



This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk won in 2011 because his boys stepped up and the best player on the other team had the worst series of his career. That series has nothing in common with 2014.

:crazy:
Dirk won because he was the best player on the best team. The Mavs went 6-2 against the Heat during the entire season, what is the excuse for them losing both games against the Mavs during regular seasons? Yeah LeBron had his worst series,why? Because the Mavs had cooked up and executed the perfect defensive scheme against him, but I am sure you will claim that they left Jason Terry to guard him 1v1. :roll:
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#68 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm

There's a good argument that Wade outplayed Dirk in that series. Dirk's performance was good, but unremarkable for an elite tier player. LeBron in the 2014 finals played much better than Dirk in the 2011 finals yet got smashed.

Something else was going on besides the simplistic best player should always win or he's not the best player hot take. Like I said, Dirk's boys stepped up and the best player on the other team played like crap.

*Edit, yes they played great defense. That's part of what I'm talking about when I say Dirk's boys stepped up. You seem like you missed some context of my post in relation the the preceeding post where it's suggested Dirk would have won in LeBron's place in 2014 because reasons. I'm trying to point out the differences between 2014 Heat and 2011 Mavs. The key difference isn't the play of the star player, but in the play of the supporting cast and the opposing team's star.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#69 » by Pg81 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:31 pm

Ainosterhaspie wrote:There's a good argument that Wade outplayed Dirk in that series. Dirk's performance was good, but unremarkable for an elite tier player. LeBron in the 2014 finals played much better than Dirk in the 2011 finals yet got smashed.

Something else was going on besides the simplistic best player should always win or he's not the best player hot take. Like I said, Dirk's boys stepped up and the best player on the other team played like crap.

*Edit, yes they played great defense. That's part of what I'm talking about when I say Dirk's boys stepped up. You seem like you missed some context of my post in relation the the preceeding post where it's suggested Dirk would have won in LeBron's place in 2014 because reasons. I'm trying to point out the differences between 2014 Heat and 2011 Mavs. The key difference isn't the play of the star player, but in the play of the supporting cast and the opposing team's star.

:nonono:
There is no argument for Wade apart context free raw stats. The Mavs started and ended with Dirk. Without Dirk that team went 2-9 in his absence. Dirk had a torn tendon, a bum elbow and a sinus infection. He shot a mind blowing 98% from FT land and a rock solid 37% from beyond the arc, he only struggled from mid range. He scored the highest 4th quarter ppg since MJ and Shaq.
I do not care what happened in 2014, the suggestion that Dirk was not the best player in the 2011 finals is ludicrous to me. Wade had GOAT level player who got most of the defensive attention and yet he could not take over the game.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#70 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:50 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
2014 he had a super team, and his team lost by the record margin in NBA finals history. Yes, Wade was out of his prime, but so were Duncan and Ginobili, and Parker was hobbled. They ouldn't play defense, they couldn't play offense, they just got waxed by the Spurs, and LeBron definitely has to have his share of the blame as their best player.

In 2017 there was no large talent disadvantage. Warriors brought Durant to match up with James, Cavs had the guy to match up with Curry in Kyrie, so it's fair. Klay was the third guy for the Warriors, and Love was that guy for the Cavs. Warriors were more talented, but it was not a big difference, especially if you believe LeBron was better than Durant at that point.

Team played no defense because LeBron wasn't playing it at that point. And it's not like it was close, Warriors won that in 5, they never had any trouble at home, all their wins were convincing, and they won first game away from home when KD outplayed LeBron in clutch, and nailed that 3 in his face. He has no excuses for that series, KD outplayed him.


Super team my ass. That team was super terrible. Wade and Bosh were both borderline washed and every other player on the team that played significant minutes would be out of the league in a couple years. It was comparable to AD’s supporting cast in New Orleans last year. The series was a complete mismatch despite LeBron playing out of his mind. There isn’t a single player in the history of the NBA who could have made that Finals competitive on their best day.



This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#71 » by Gooner » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:59 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Super team my ass. That team was super terrible. Wade and Bosh were both borderline washed and every other player on the team that played significant minutes would be out of the league in a couple years. It was comparable to AD’s supporting cast in New Orleans last year. The series was a complete mismatch despite LeBron playing out of his mind. There isn’t a single player in the history of the NBA who could have made that Finals competitive on their best day.



This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.


LeBron gets his stats at the expense of his teammates, that's the difference. His results show it. I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#72 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:05 pm

Pg81 wrote: :nonono:
There is no argument for Wade apart context free raw stats. The Mavs started and ended with Dirk. Without Dirk that team went 2-9 in his absence. Dirk had a torn tendon, a bum elbow and a sinus infection. He shot a mind blowing 98% from FT land and a rock solid 37% from beyond the arc, he only struggled from mid range. He scored the highest 4th quarter ppg since MJ and Shaq.
I do not care what happened in 2014, the suggestion that Dirk was not the best player in the 2011 finals is ludicrous to me. Wade had GOAT level player who got most of the defensive attention and yet he could not take over the game.

You seem to be confusing Dirk's team being more dependent on him with Dirk playing better than Wade in the finals. They are not the same thing. Wade had more points with better efficiency, more steals, more blocks, more assists, and only two fewer rebounds per game.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#73 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:06 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:[/b]

This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.


LeBron gets his stats at the expense of his teammates, that's the difference. His results show it. I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.


Try watching the games. That's a 2015 and later narrative you're shoehorning into 2014. It isn't true at all for the Heat era.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#74 » by Colbinii » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:59 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:[/b]

This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.


LeBron gets his stats at the expense of his teammates, that's the difference. His results show it. I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.


Actually Gooner, the results show the exact opposite.

2014 Wade w/ LeBron: +2.5 Points Per 100
2014 Wade w/o LeBron: -7.6 Points per 100

In fact when looking into it further
for the 2014 post-season when Wade was without LeBron, Wade's individual statistics increased but the team performance, especially defensively, plummeted.

In 2013 we see Wade struggle to score without James, especially in the restricted area.

In 2012 we see an even larger dip in the Heat's performance with James and Wade at the helm.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#75 » by G35 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:34 pm

The year when Lebron won his 5th ring he got into the conversation...when Lebron won his 6th ring he passed him up.....
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#76 » by Colbinii » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:55 pm

G35 wrote:The year when Lebron won his 5th ring he got into the conversation...when Lebron won his 6th ring he passed him up.....



It's a shame neither Kobe nor LeBron can hold a candle to John Havlicek. Hell, neither can Jordan.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#77 » by KTM_2813 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:05 pm

Colbinii wrote:Actually Gooner, the results show the exact opposite.

2014 Wade w/ LeBron: +2.5 Points Per 100
2014 Wade w/o LeBron: -7.6 Points per 100

In fact when looking into it further
for the 2014 post-season when Wade was without LeBron, Wade's individual statistics increased but the team performance, especially defensively, plummeted.

In 2013 we see Wade struggle to score without James, especially in the restricted area.

In 2012 we see an even larger dip in the Heat's performance with James and Wade at the helm.


Obviously Wade played worse without LeBron... Under The King's tyrannical reign, his relentless ball-dominance actually makes his teammates forget how to play basketball, and then when their number is called, they fold like LeBron under pressure.
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#78 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Gooner wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Gooner wrote:[/b]

This is juts a typical weak assumption by LeBron fans like you. Dirk could have easily made that excuse before 2011 finals, going against LeBron who you claim to be the goat, Wade and Bosh. He didn't make any excuses, and he and his teammates beat their ass. If it was LeBron in Dirk's place, you guys would trash Terry, Kidd, Marion, Barea and all those guys, because that's what you always do. You even dare to disrespect guys like Wade and Bosh, so it's obvious what we are dealing with here.


Dirk’s my favorite player of all-time and he was really, really good in 2011, but he also got way more help that Finals than LeBron did in 2014. LeBron scored 2 more PPG on 3 less FGA and 2 less FTA per game, he got twice as many assists and he played much better defense.


LeBron gets his stats at the expense of his teammates, that's the difference. His results show it. I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.


Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck you. You’re gonna tell me who my favorite player is? I started rooting for the Mavs as a 9 year old with the 3 Js. The big 4th quarter comeback in Game 5 against the Stockton/Malone Jazz when Dirk and Finley were young was my first big moment of success with them and it was magical. My first favorite player was actually Shawn Bradley. I always thought it was bull how everyone made fun of him and acted like he didn’t have any skill just because he was tall. By the time I got to around 2006, Dirk was the only player who had even been on the team for any length of time so of course he was my favorite player. Game 7 against the Spurs that year was maybe my most memorable game ever. The Mavs had always come up just short against the Spurs year after year after year so for Dirk to completely outplay Duncan at his peak on the road in a Game 7 was almost orgasmic. I still remember that 3-point play like it was yesterday. Then they got the championship stolen with that terrible refereeing and I really hated Wade for a while. I don’t think people actually remember who bad it was. Unless the defender had been set for like 2 full seconds any contact was automatic free throws for the offense.

By 2011, it seemed like the championship window was mostly closed so that was a magical run. Sweeping the 2-time defending champions until Bynum tried to kill Barea, Dirk’s near-perfect game against OKC where he went 21 for 21, and of course the Finals. I’d gotten to like LeBron a little bit and grown some grudging respect for Wade, but then when they made fun of Dirk for getting sick, it was like **** them all over again. Dirk definitely had a really good series and had some big 4th quarters early, but the role players stepped up a lot too. If you remember, in Game 6, Dirk was actually awful and missed like 11 of his first 12 or something and JET just carried them in until by the time Dirk made a couple late shots they didn’t even really need them. I watched the game on the casino floor at the Rio in Vegas and couldn’t believe it for hours afterward. Finally went out for steaks with an old friend to celebrate.

After that, I definitely rooted for LeBron in 2012 and was maybe 1/3 as happy to see him get a ring as I’d been for Dirk the previous year. I also finally got to the point where I could actually root for the Spurs as the Mavs’ history with them didn’t seem to matter any more now that Dirk had a ring and they were playing beautiful basketball. Felt like they got screwed by the refs pretty bad in Game 6 against the Thunder. By 2013, I was all over the Spurs bandwagon as the more talented, underrated team and I bet them the whole way against the Heat, rooting for them in Games 1-6. Then I got to Game 7, and I’m like “wait a minute, there’s no way LeBron’s losing a Game 7 at home, why not switch sides and bet on LeBron? So I did and it was super fun. The next year, the talent gap was much heavier on the Spurs side and I couldn’t believe the Finals were going off at even money so I really loaded up and bet on them probably harder than any Finals ever. LeBron had a fantastic series and it didn’t make a whit of difference because the Spurs were just too good.

I bet on the Warriors in the 2015 Finals and rooted for them as the hot new thing that also seemed like they should be the better team. The Mavs were still my favorite team but by 2016 they weren’t much of a contender to even make the playoffs, and the Warriors were must see TV every night. Finally, I’m like “why pretend like the Mavs are still my favorite team?” I wouldn’t even care if they were on. But I don’t want to miss a single Warriors game. I guess they’re my favorite team now. But I rooted hard for Dirk for 15 years and even last year when he had his moment at the all-star game he warmed my heart. I’m never gonna care about another basketball player like I did for him.

I’m generally much better at being objective about my favorite players than a lot of people though. For instance, as much as I hated Wade for years, I still have him at #14 or #15 on my all-time list and I only have Dirk at #16. LeBron I did root for a lot, especially in his first Cleveland run, but I really only was on his side in about half of his finals. The reason I have him as the GOAT is just because I objectively believe it to be so.
iggymcfrack
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#79 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:15 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Actually Gooner, the results show the exact opposite.

2014 Wade w/ LeBron: +2.5 Points Per 100
2014 Wade w/o LeBron: -7.6 Points per 100

In fact when looking into it further
for the 2014 post-season when Wade was without LeBron, Wade's individual statistics increased but the team performance, especially defensively, plummeted.

In 2013 we see Wade struggle to score without James, especially in the restricted area.

In 2012 we see an even larger dip in the Heat's performance with James and Wade at the helm.


Obviously Wade played worse without LeBron... Under The King's tyrannical reign, his relentless ball-dominance actually makes his teammates forget how to play basketball, and then when their number is called, they fold like LeBron under pressure.


Giving you an And-1 here with the benefit of the doubt that you’re being sarcastic. Hopefully I’m giving you that credit appropriately.
Colbinii
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Re: What Year Did LeBron Surpass Kobe? 

Post#80 » by Colbinii » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:16 pm

Gooner wrote: I don't believe Dirk is your favourite player of all time, but that's neither her nor there.


Who are you to tell someone if you think someone is there favorite player or not?
tsherkin wrote:Locked due to absence of adult conversation.


penbeast0 wrote:Guys, if you don't have anything to say, don't post.


E-Balla wrote:LeBron is Jeff George.

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