Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer

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Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#1 » by Arman_tanzarian » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:27 pm

Does Harden have a case over MJ as a scorer? This is based on Morey saying he's the better scorer.

Looking at the numbers at a glance Harden has one postseason run where he scored at a rate over 40 PP100. MJ did that every year besides his rookie year.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#2 » by King Ken » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:45 pm

For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#3 » by freethedevil » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:55 pm

Arman_tanzarian wrote:Does Harden have a case over MJ as a scorer? This is based on Morey saying he's the better scorer.

Looking at the numbers at a glance Harden has one postseason run where he scored at a rate over 40 PP100. MJ did that every year besides his rookie year.

no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#4 » by eminence » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:45 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Arman_tanzarian wrote:Does Harden have a case over MJ as a scorer? This is based on Morey saying he's the better scorer.

Looking at the numbers at a glance Harden has one postseason run where he scored at a rate over 40 PP100. MJ did that every year besides his rookie year.

no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.


I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#5 » by freethedevil » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:46 pm

eminence wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Arman_tanzarian wrote:Does Harden have a case over MJ as a scorer? This is based on Morey saying he's the better scorer.

Looking at the numbers at a glance Harden has one postseason run where he scored at a rate over 40 PP100. MJ did that every year besides his rookie year.

no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.


I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.

I was thinking kawhi who, while not as good of a playmaker is probably a better scorer.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#6 » by eminence » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm

freethedevil wrote:
eminence wrote:
freethedevil wrote:no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.


I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.

I was thinking kawhi who, while not as good of a playmaker is probably a better scorer.


Yeah, you're probably right on that one.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#7 » by Arman_tanzarian » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:10 pm

eminence wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Arman_tanzarian wrote:Does Harden have a case over MJ as a scorer? This is based on Morey saying he's the better scorer.

Looking at the numbers at a glance Harden has one postseason run where he scored at a rate over 40 PP100. MJ did that every year besides his rookie year.

no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.


I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.


I basically have (when it comes to strictly scoring and a high emphasis on Playoff scoring)

MJ
KD/LBJ
Kawhi/Curry
and then Harden.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#8 » by freethedevil » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:13 pm

Arman_tanzarian wrote:
eminence wrote:
freethedevil wrote:no. Harden's playoff scoring isn't even like top 4 in the league right now.


I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.


I basically have (when it comes to strictly scoring and a high emphasis on Playoff scoring)

MJ
KD/LBJ
Kawhi/Curry
and then Harden.

KD isn't on par with lebron as a scorer in the playoffs, not even close really. gsw has covered up his typical playoff drops and event then, kd's #"s don't compare to lebron's #"s from his first cleveland stint when you adjust for pace.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#9 » by No-more-rings » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:01 pm

King Ken wrote:For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

Jordan is one of the best mid range shooters ever, so i don't think it would be as easy to limit him like you say.

And what do you mean you can't do much with Harden? His scoring efficiency sees a noticeable drop almost every postseason.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#10 » by Hornet Mania » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:07 pm

Absolutely not. In the regular season maybe it's close but Harden's efficiency is a lot less epic in the playoffs. I don't think his numbers are entirely fraudulent just because he mostly limits his shots to only 3s/layups/FTs (why not take a good shot?) but that strat doesn't fly in the postseason quite so easily.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#11 » by The High Cyde » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:12 pm

The gulf between them is massive come the playoffs. I firmly believe Michael could have put up similar numbers to Harden in the RS or even better.

Playoffs are where you show your mettle as a player, and for superstars a huge chunk of that is offensive prowess, where Michael would a have a clear advantage. I'd trust Michael more in the playoffs too.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#12 » by Sublime187 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:38 pm

freethedevil wrote:
Arman_tanzarian wrote:
eminence wrote:
I'd probably have him as 4th (LBJ/KD/Curry in some order). AD doesn't have quite the playoff sample size yet imo. But yeah, MJ 100% over him due to playoff success.


I basically have (when it comes to strictly scoring and a high emphasis on Playoff scoring)

MJ
KD/LBJ
Kawhi/Curry
and then Harden.

KD isn't on par with lebron as a scorer in the playoffs, not even close really. gsw has covered up his typical playoff drops and event then, kd's #"s don't compare to lebron's #"s from his first cleveland stint when you adjust for pace.


Agree 100%. KD was not good in the playoffs scoring wise before GS. No where near the level of a Lebron. GS has masked a lot of his issues.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#13 » by BenoUdrihFTL » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:57 pm

Should be a poll for this. My vote:

Jordan - Not Close
1.61803398874989484820458683436563811772030917980576286
2135448622705260462818902449707207
204189391137484754088
0753868917521
26633862
22353
693
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#14 » by anthony00 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:02 pm

no no no no no and nawl
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#15 » by anthony00 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:07 pm

King Ken wrote:For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.


Harden has the worst clutch percentage in the clutch in th postseason at 9%. Lower then Westbrook at 11% while jordans is 50%. Harden is helped by stats nerds becuase his high TS% and efficency which is only so high becuase he takes so many threes and freethrows. Harden is not an ideal scorer in the postseason in comparison to Jordan . Your era bias is also showing since you didn't mention the spacing he would have on offense in this era . Lol and without handchecking nobody is stopping him going to the rim.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#16 » by SeniorWalker » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:25 pm

Can we please just acknowledge how vastly different their eras were and leave this conversation alone? It is incredibly insulting to the sport. It is a worthy debate only if one reads spreadsheets and does nothing else.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#17 » by King Ken » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:51 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
King Ken wrote:For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.

Jordan is one of the best mid range shooters ever, so i don't think it would be as easy to limit him like you say.

And what do you mean you can't do much with Harden? His scoring efficiency sees a noticeable drop almost every postseason.

Mid range v. zone defense at 195 when you can't shoot threes isn't a great value in all honestly. You can easily bump him off coverage with a defender like Middleton who's 6'8 240 and force him into Lopez and Giannis. Easily.

His numbers went up with OKC, in Houston is only drops as he is the system and you are forcing others to beat you other than him. Which you can do with hard traps, soft zones and putting a defender like Iggy, Exum when he was healthy, on him and using Gobert or Green to protect the paint and using Green to do that and protect the lane.

And outside of GS, it really hasn't been super effective in his recent run. You still got to outscore the Rox which is not easy to do whatsoever especially when at times you are playing 3-5 trying to scheme out Harden.

Not sure what this even has to do with the fact that Harden is just a more difficult matchup for any generation than Jordan is. Especially with today's rules.

Against HOU, you almost have to do a soft zone just due to Harden's playmaking skills. Against Jordan, I would go with nothing but hard zone and force him to beat me from modern 3pt NBA range.With a hard zone, I would also force MJ to create for others as well without slashing. That's when he struggled heavily. Of course in his era, I couldn't do it with Randy Wittman, Craig Elho, and guys like that. It's not possible. They just don't have the ability which is the biggest problem with MJ's era. The ability just wasn't there to defend him. The personnel just wasn't available.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#18 » by Dupp » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:10 pm

Hardens had a lot of flameouts but his offense vs the warrriors was a lot better than kawhis last post season. He was also playing a much better warriors team than kawhi was and with a worse supporting cast.

The notion that harden was bad again last post season is complete nonsense.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#19 » by King Ken » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:12 pm

anthony00 wrote:
King Ken wrote:For me, Harden. He just more difficult regardless of era. I could bring MJ into today's NBA and make it difficult for him and really cut into his efficiency. Muddy the lane, go into zone defense, protect the lane and rotate well like v. Giannis and I can lower any verison of Jordan's impact.

You really can't do much with Harden. You just have to hard trap him, rotate well and force others to beat you. If you can score like the Warriors, you have much higher odds but if his supporting cast can outscore you, you are in trouble. It's extremely difficult for any era to guard Harden. Impossible to be frank.

MJ is impossible in his era with illegal defense and all and the lack of quality perimeter defenders in his era at the position but in today's NBA. They are well perpared for a Michael Jordan type of player. The personnel just wasn't there in the 90s. It took awhile before we started having sound 3/D players.

Everyone has legit 3/D guys with length. At that time, lol. Wasn't no such thing.


Harden has the worst clutch percentage in the clutch in th postseason at 9%. Lower then Westbrook at 11% while jordans is 50%. Harden is helped by stats nerds becuase his high TS% and efficency which is only so high becuase he takes so many threes and freethrows. Harden is not an ideal scorer in the postseason in comparison to Jordan . Your era bias is also showing since you didn't mention the spacing he would have on offense in this era . Lol and without handchecking nobody is stopping him going to the rim.

Clutch stats are always trash. It's all about who you are playing and who's around you. It's no suprise LeBron became a lot more clutch when he is playing next to Wade and Kyrie than he was next to Larry Hughes and Mo Williams. It's no suprise OKC's Mr. Unreliable is a lot more clutch when next to Steph Curry, Draymond Green and Klay Thompson. Personnel matters. I don't get caught up with insignificant things like clutch factor unless it's symbolic like Reggie Miller, Robert Horry, Iso Joe, Fisher, Manu, Steph, and Klay. When you have a history of just being an execution king in the last several mins of a game.

You need teammates. Steph is a lot more clutch with Klay gravity on the court. Give me on a break with this non sequitur. Facts are you need teammates to execution. Harden just needs less than the norm. His gravity is through the roof.

Harden is an ideal scorer in my opinion. I don't think I would take anyone scoring wise over him. Offensively, LeBron, Durant and obviously Steph who has once in a generation gravity.

His era was weak. Just watch the tape. It wasn't a surprise an Atlanta Hawk team lead by Mookie Blaylock and Kevin Willis was a #1 seed. It wasn't a shock that MJ retires, is replaced by CBA legend Pete Myers and they go 55-27. Is Pete Myers worth as many wins as Jordan? Obviously not but it's clear the era just wasn't up to snuff. It wasn't the 80's. There was no three legit HOF per championship squad. Just facts.
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Re: Harden vs. MJ as a Scorer 

Post#20 » by DatAsh » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:44 pm

I think Morey is mostly talking about regular season here, and Morey himself even kinda admits that Jordan would score more effectively if he played today.

Looking only at the regular season, Harden and Curry are probably the most statistically impressive scorers ever.

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