01 Iverson vs 11 D-Rose

[Narigo]

Who ya got?

[Colbinii]

2011 Rose but he also had a better team around him.

[GeorgeMarcus]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

[Colbinii]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

He was much worse in 2008 than his other years. Just because his efficiency improved while his volume dropped doesn't make him a better player.

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS.

You can't say "Hey look at Iverson in a lesser impactful role, his efficiency improved" while ignoring that his impact was much lower than his prime.

[Odinn21]

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS

My comment is going to be strictly about WS stat.

I’ve always had an issue with the stat. And this is a good comparison to point out my issue.
Iverson played 71 games, won 50 games. So, he averaged .1028 per game and .1460 per win.
Rose played 81 games, won 62 games. So he averaged .1025 per game and .1339 per win.

I get that being healthy and/or playing more games is a thing to consider and it has an effect on a cumulative stat but I don’t see the use of mentioning it like this.

[Colbinii]

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS

My comment is going to be strictly about WS stat.

I’ve always had an issue with the stat. And this is a good comparison to point out my issue.
Iverson played 71 games, won 50 games. So, he averaged .1028 per game and .1460 per win.
Rose played 81 games, won 62 games. So he averaged .1025 per game and .1339 per win.

I get that being healthy and/or playing more games is a thing to consider and it has an effect on a cumulative stat but I don’t see the use of mentioning it like this.

Im just mentioning a ton advanced stats that people care about. If anything the conclusion should be "They are similar, but Rose ranged from around the same to having an advantage in most categories".

[Odinn21]

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS

My comment is going to be strictly about WS stat.

I’ve always had an issue with the stat. And this is a good comparison to point out my issue.
Iverson played 71 games, won 50 games. So, he averaged .1028 per game and .1460 per win.
Rose played 81 games, won 62 games. So he averaged .1025 per game and .1339 per win.

I get that being healthy and/or playing more games is a thing to consider and it has an effect on a cumulative stat but I don’t see the use of mentioning it like this.

Im just mentioning a ton advanced stats that people care about. If anything the conclusion should be "They are similar, but Rose ranged from around the same to having an advantage in most categories".

Oh. I wasn’t critical of you. If I sounded like that, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to have a conversation about the concept of the stat, that was all. Cheers.

[Colbinii]

My comment is going to be strictly about WS stat.

I’ve always had an issue with the stat. And this is a good comparison to point out my issue.
Iverson played 71 games, won 50 games. So, he averaged .1028 per game and .1460 per win.
Rose played 81 games, won 62 games. So he averaged .1025 per game and .1339 per win.

I get that being healthy and/or playing more games is a thing to consider and it has an effect on a cumulative stat but I don’t see the use of mentioning it like this.

Im just mentioning a ton advanced stats that people care about. If anything the conclusion should be "They are similar, but Rose ranged from around the same to having an advantage in most categories".

Oh. I wasn’t critical of you. If I sounded like that, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to have a conversation about the concept of the stat, that was all. Cheers.

The stat certainly has biases and the Bulls had a better team around Rose so it does make some sense that Rose rates higher than Iverson in that statistic. OBPM rates them somewhat close as well, though an advantage to Rose.

I personally thought Rose's ability to break down a defense was more impactful than Iversons ability to do so.

[No-more-rings]

I’d take Ai by a bit. His scoring efficiency was poop, but i still think he was a better overall offensive player he just played in a tough defensive environment for an undersized guard. Ai in 06 put up like 33/4/7 on 54 ts% which was better than anything Rose managed.

[magicman1978]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

He was much worse in 2008 than his other years. Just because his efficiency improved while his volume dropped doesn't make him a better player.

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS.

You can't say "Hey look at Iverson in a lesser impactful role, his efficiency improved" while ignoring that his impact was much lower than his prime.

AI's peak was 33ppg, 6.0 BPM, 8.8 OWS, 54.3%TS, 34.9 Ast%. I understand that's not the season we're comparing here, but it's a season in which the defensive environment was more similar to 2011 and may be more indicative of what Iverson could have done with more offensive support/spacing.

[Colbinii]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

He was much worse in 2008 than his other years. Just because his efficiency improved while his volume dropped doesn't make him a better player.

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS.

You can't say "Hey look at Iverson in a lesser impactful role, his efficiency improved" while ignoring that his impact was much lower than his prime.

AI's peak was 33ppg, 6.0 BPM, 8.8 OWS, 54.3%TS, 34.9 Ast%. I understand that's not the season we're comparing here, but it's a season in which the defensive environment was more similar to 2011.

You could be right. I still think AI was "better" in 2001 due to his defensive intensity.

[GeorgeMarcus]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

He was much worse in 2008 than his other years. Just because his efficiency improved while his volume dropped doesn't make him a better player.

Derrick Rose scored 25 points on 55 TS% but did much more than Iverson. His 38.7 Ast%, 5.8 BPM and 8.3 OWS bests AI's peak of 31.0 on 51.8 TS%, 23.0 AST%, 5.0 BPM and 7.3 WS.

You can't say "Hey look at Iverson in a lesser impactful role, his efficiency improved" while ignoring that his impact was much lower than his prime.

That's not my point though. When looking at 01 Iverson, his efficiency stands out as being particularly bad (which he gets knocked for all the time). My point is, we have to view that with the context that he was playing next to one of the most offensively handicapped starting units in the league (Eric Snow/George Lynch/Tyrone Hill/old Mutombo). If the same Iverson had a Reggie Miller, or for purposes of this thread the 11 Bulls, then his efficiency would likely increase significantly as it did on the Nuggets.

[HeartBreakKid]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

Allen Iverson was still in his prime.

And his efficiency went up because he wasn't chucking as much, pretty simple really. I mean yeah, Iverson averaged 26 points on 56 TS%, that is pretty comparable to what Derrick Rose did and Rose was not playing with a volume scorer.

[udfa]

11 Rose

Just as talented and fills the same role but is easier to manage personally

[bledredwine]

Both players received a lot of hate for efficiency but both received way more defensive attention than anyone else in the league in those respective years.

I chose Rose for how he incorporated teammates but it’s a close one.

Wow Forum! That’s 2 good comparisons in a row! Well done

[GeorgeMarcus]

AI. I always like to point out how much his efficiency improved when paired with another high volume scorer in Melo. Suddenly he wasn't the focus of every defensive scheme, allowing his post-prime self to average 26.4ppg on 56.7 TS%.

Allen Iverson was still in his prime.

And his efficiency went up because he wasn't chucking as much, pretty simple really. I mean yeah, Iverson averaged 26 points on 56 TS%, that is pretty comparable to what Derrick Rose did and Rose was not playing with a volume scorer.

Meh he lost a clear step defensively by then, but let’s say it was his prime. You say his efficiency went up because he wasn’t “chucking” which is basically the point I was making. He was no longer in a system that forced him to shoot at such a high volume.

[iggymcfrack]

Iverson barely. Rose maybe a hair better on defense and a hair better numbers per minute, but Iverson played an incredible 42 MPG in the regular season and 46 MPG in the playoffs. That kind of durability matters and if Iverson could be maybe 95%-98% as valuable as Rose per minute, then his ability to stay on the court wins out. Have to wonder how much more efficient Iverson could have been if they found him a little rest every once in a while.

[JordansBulls]

Iverson did more overall

[SpreeS]

Who ya got?

I would prefer to shoot my self than to answer who is better, if you would add Westbrook 2017.