#18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

[E-Balla]

E-Balla, how do you rate Robinson's playoff defense? Elgee has Robinson as leading the second best playoff defenses, above Hakeem, Duncan, Ewing, ect.

I find myself very convinced by your Robinson arguments when it comes to offense. Without the offensive struggles against good defenses that I think you've done a great job of showing, I'd could see Robinson's peak as high as top 5. That said, given that were at #18 now, I'm starting to think Robinson's defense is good enough to get him in on that alone, even if his offense is only +1 or so.

It depends. Next to Duncan when he only had to focus on defense his defense was great. Legitimately one of the best ever, but I don't think he was in another league when compared to someone like Draymond on that end in the playoffs.

Outside of that it was good, maybe even great, but pales in comparison to someone like Duncan, Wallace, Hakeem, Zo, and Ewing among a few others. Robinson is a great defender (top 5ish) but I don't think we've hit the point where someone has defensive impact that is singularly better than everyone else on both ends. Moses Malone for example was 1st team all defense and one of the best offensive players in the league. I don't think anyone other than Bill Russell has been so good on defense that they topped amazing 2 way players in their impact. That's why I see him with someone like Draymond who is a beast defensively.

[Mavericksfan]

Watch on YouTube

Overall I came away with the impression that Hakeem is really damn good. Like damn near unstoppable good. DRob looked pretty good on defense as well but not quite top 5 defender ever. There seemed to be a fair amount of miscommunications on D and I dont know if that’s on him or his coach.

Any suggestions for who guarded Hakeem the best? I’m actually curious how others managed to stop some of the stuff he was doing.

Spoiler:

Possession 1 - Hmm, I see Robinson clearly push Hakeem at 6:32 but he gets muscled back for deeper position. Continues to fight back so Hakeem catches it outside of the paint. Hakeem turns and rises immediately with DRob late to react. I think it was good initial D but no contest. Wash

Possession 2 -DRob initially tries fronting to deny Hakeem(not sure why) and then recover behind him. Hakeem feels DRob pushing and does a nice job faking as if he was going to come over his right shoulder. DRob did a poor job and should’ve been playing baseline since the help was coming towards the middle. Bad D

Possession 3 -Not sure how this is bad defense. At 8:45 DRob clearly bumps Hakeem with his hips to force him away from the basket. Hakeem uses that momentum into a nice fade. I don’t know how anyone would cover that since he created so much space. DRob forced him into a long fadeaway after a bump. I’d say good but not great D

Possession 4 -We agree on possession 4. Fought him the entire way. Great D

Possession 5 -I’d like to add his good help D prior to the rebound. He helped to take away the passing lane from the cutter and he lurked in the paint so Horry didnt have a driving lane. Poor awareness to not box out after the miss. He started to but instead of neutralizing Hakeem and letting his teammate get the board he leaves his feet which allows Olajuwon to sneak in for the OREB. I do think Elliot fouled Hakeem first. Great overall defensive possession imo.

Possession 6 -Not sure what you’re referring to here. At 10:44 you can see DRob get back on D. He actually stops an easy layup because there was a miscommunication on a pick n roll. Two guys went with the ball handler. D. DRob steps up to prevent a pass and allows his teammate to recover before getting back to Hakeem. Great D

Possession 7 - Now I see it, looks like you missed a possession. This one happens at 11:35 of the video and is the one you referred to as possession 6. DRob got back but he was once again fronting and Hakeem ran to the rim instead of trying to post at the wings. Bad defense. Next possession Drexler took it coast to coast. I’ll add it to this one so our possession counts dont get mixed up.

Possession 8 -Agreed here. I just shook my head at that play lol. Wash

Possession 9 -I think this is good D. His denial works this time and Hakeem is forced to face up further away. I think as a defense that’s a win if you force him to settle for a fadeaway 13 footer. I think good D.

Possession 10 - Disagree here. He rotates to stop an open shot but his teammates recovered. He does drift towards the rim but Hakeem shoots a 20 footer and DRob still gets a decent contest due to his length and quickness. I think it’s good D.

Possession 11 - Agreed. I think he didnt fight enough for position but he was ready to help. Wash

Possession 12 -I think it was good D. Rockets initially had a 4 on 3. DRob gets back and secures the paint. The PG uses a screen and kicks it out because DRob is waiting inside. They did miss a wide open Horry

Possession 13 -Good initial D , bad D for not forcing Hakeem towards the middle. Wash

Possession 14 -I think that was okay D. He was fighting but was pushed back. Hakeem shoots a lightning quick baseline fade. I don’t know what he’s supposed to do there. You can’t commit hard to Hakeem’s initial move due to his fakes(which he already hit DRob with at least 3 times in this game). Wash for me

Possession 15 -Wait what lol? Go to 18:36 DRob is literally pushing Hakeem. He does a great job of forcing Hakeem towards the help. Hakeem makes a hell of a pass and they swing the ball for an open 3. I think this is pretty good D.


Possession 16- agreed. N/a

Possession 17 -Immediately gets back and even tho Drexler drives baseline he commits to the middle knowing his teammate should force Drexler there. Great example of his help impacting his team. The perimeter defender was able to overplay the baseline because he knew DRob had his back. I think this is great D

Possession 18 - Agreed, good D.

Possession 19 -Lazy initial defense, isnt fighting for position. I think does a good job on the drive but the defense does collapse and a great pass by Hakeem. I agree bad D


Possession 20 -Agreed. Bad D

Possession 21 -Bad defense even before this. Didnt get back on D and they were only saved by a foul taken in transition. I think he was lazy fighting for position but otherwise that was good D. Didnt fall for any fakes and forced D-Rob into a 13 foot turnaround hook shot.

Possession 22 - Hakeem gets to his spot for an uncontested fadeaway. Bad defense.

Yeah not sure why he’s forcing the pass baseline when there’s no help there. Still played pretty good D on the turnaround. I’d say maybe a wash.

My count came to

6 bad possessions
4 washes
6 good
4 great

[euroleague]

1. David Robinson 94 - elite defense, easily the best impact defender remaining on this list. Elite offensively, although had issues when teams focused on him in the playoffs and he had no other legitimate offensive players as teammates.

2. David Robinson 96 - much the same reasoning

3. Moses Malone 81 - one of the greatest playoff runs ever. Dominated everyone, took 2 games in the finals. Virtually unstoppable 1v1, and hard to stop with a double

[cecilthesheep]

Watch on YouTube

1st quarter:

Possession 1 - Hakeem runs straight to the middle of the lane, is barely touched by Robinson so he established great position. Makes an easy fadeaway. Horrible defense from Robinson.

Possession 2 - Hakeem again runs straight down the court to the left block untouched. Posts Robinson, one dribble, Robinson fouls him on the fadeaway. Notable because like I said Robinson was so bad a hard double from VDN couldn't get there in time. Horrible defense from Robinson.

Possession 3 - Hakeem covers, then runs to the left block uncontested again. Takes one dribble, fades, and misses the uncontested jumper. Again, bad defense from Robinson.

Possession 4 - Finally fights Hakeem and plays tough defense allowing the double to come forcing Hakeem to give it to Kenny who takes a bad shot on the dribble penetration clearly not wanting to try DRob. Good defense.

Possession 5 - Fouls Hakeem while reaching after his OREB. Gets lucky because they call it on Elliot. Makes up for it by stopping his drive from the 3 point line. Good defense.

Possession 6 - Let's Hakeem best him down the court. Gets lucky the pass to him went haywire. Horrible defense.

Not in play possession 7.

Possession 8 - Hakeem gets to his spot and dream shakes him. Defense wasn't good but no one on earth could defend that so it's a wash.

Possession 9 - Fights Hakeem in positioning but gets beat for the open jumper. Wash.

Possession 10 - Loses Hakeem ball watching on the perimeter and gives up an open jumper Hakeem misses. Bad defense.

Possession 11 - Wash.

Possession 12 - Meh. Not really in this play much. Wash.

Possession 13 - Contests the post, double had time to come. Hakeem gets him with up and under on repost. Wash.

Possession 14 - Let's Hakeem waltz to his spot and get off an uncontested fadeaway. Horrible defense.

Possession 15 - Hakeem literally walks down the whole court to his spot leaving the defense scrambling to cover for him leading to an open 3 from Horry. Horrible defense.

Not really in play possession 16.

Possession 17 - Helps on Drexler on fastbreak. Good but easy play.

Possession 18 - Has to leave Hakeem open to help on Kenny's drive. Good defense.

Possession 19 - Let's Hakeem get to his spot and drive to the middle of the lane forcing the defense to collapse. All 5 defenders are within 2 feet of Hakeem when he kicked it out to Horry who was wide open. Bad defense.

Possession 20 - Not hustling down court at all on the fast break. Clearly tired. Bad defense.

Possession 21 - Let's Hakeem get to his spot and does a pretty bad attempt at contesting, but Hakeem makes a nice hook. Bad defense.

Possession 22 - Hakeem gets to his spot for an uncontested fadeaway. Bad defense.

That's 22 possessions in the first and half of those possessions Robinson plays bad defense. A few of them are honestly embarrassing for someone so talented. Even if you don't totally agree with my assessment of these plays you gotta admit his defense was below average.

I'm not going to go through this play-by-play, but I made it through the first stretch of five or six and I really think you're being extremely critical of defense which is not that bad. Hakeem's positioning does not seem that overwhelmingly good to me, Robinson's doing a fine job of pushing him off the spot as he catches the ball, and Hakeem's taking a looooot of moving fades.

[freethedevil]

4. The notion that the Spurs had a decent team defensive rating in that Rockets series because of Robinson is pretty laughable. It almost sounds like one of those “face-to-fist style” fighting jokes. Are we really making excuses for him that being roasted by Hakeem while the rest of the Rockets are closely guarded becomes his primary value? What, he gets a boost for dying as as a sacrificial lamb?

Are we seriously acting like man on man d is anywhere near as important as protecting the paint? Because, if rodman really did refuse to double, then robinson being left on an island vs hakeem is literally what allowed for the rocket's shooters to be guarded so closely. That's the literally what distinguishes defensive anchors from complimentary perimiter pieces.

Lebron averaged a 50 point triple double per 100 possesions vs the magic in 09, shall we ding howard because he was a "sacrifical lamb"?

Brining up the offense as a whole isn't "an excuse", it's literally the point of a defensive anchor. If robinson being a "sacrificial lamb" allows the spurs to lower the offensive rating of the rockets, why the hell wouldn't we give him credit for it?

I suppose we should just dismiss when offensibe players create for teammates because them being defended makes them "sacrificial lambs"

[FrogBros4Life]

1990 Nuggets (3 games): 108.0 RS, 105.2 series, -2.8
1990 Trail Blazers (7 games): 110.5 RS, 107.2 series, -3.3
1991 Warriors (4 games): 111.9 RS, 111.7 series, -0.2
1993 Trail Blazers (4 games): 108.3 RS, 105.1 series, -3.2
1993 Suns (6 games): 113.3 RS, 109.9 series, -3.4
1994 Jazz (4 games): 108.6 RS, 110.6 series, +2.0
1995 Nuggets (3 games): 109.1 RS, 103.1 series, -6.0
1995 Lakers (6 games): 109.1 RS, 97.9 series, -11.2 (!)
1995 Rockets (6 games): 109.7 RS, 110.6 series, +0.9 (although we've covered how they added Clyde)
1996 Suns (4 games): 110.3 RS, 109.3 series, -1.0
1996 Jazz (6 games): 113.3 RS, 114.1 series, +0.8

And the one year where he's hurt for the playoffs, this happens:
1992 Suns (3 games): 112.1 RS, 120.7 series, +8.6

It looks like a pretty consistent impact to me. If we average all those series, weighted by how many games each one took, Robinson's Spurs slowed their opponents' offenses in the playoffs by nearly 2.6 points per 100, with only one increase of more than 1 point and two complete slaughters in '95.

Thanks, those are good statistics to provide. However, I do want to be clear that the contention is not that Robinson was outright bad on defence during his prime playoff runs. I also think it is important to remember that we are discussing him comparatively, not in isolation. How do those numbers compare with Ewing, Mourning, or Dikembe?

Dikembe at his offensive peak was nothing close to even D-Rob's bad offensive moments imo; his defense was undeniably on par with anyone's, but I don't think he merits this conversation quite yet. Here's Ewing from his age 24 to 30 seasons:

'88 Celtics (4 games): 115.4 RS, 117.3 series, +1.9
'89 76ers (3 games): 113.0 RS, 107.5 series, -5.5
'89 Bulls (6 games): 109.1 RS, 115.8 series, +6.7
'90 Celtics (5 games): 112.0 RS, 119.3 series, +7.3
'90 Pistons (5 games): 109.9 RS, 114.5 series, +4.6
'91 Bulls (3 games): 114.6 RS, 116.1 series, +1.5
'92 Pistons (5 games): 107.5 RS, 97.6 series, -9.9
'92 Bulls (7 games): 115.5 RS, 111.2 series, -4.3
'93 Pacers (4 games): 111.9 RS, 111.7 series, -0.2
'93 Hornets (5 games): 109.5 RS, 100.5 series, -9.0
'93 Bulls (6 games): 112.9 RS, 112.4 series, -0.5

Overall weighted average: -0.6, a fraction of Robinson's. Now, I bet this probably gets a lot better if you extend through Ewing's remaining All-Star years, like quite a bit better. I'd do that, but frankly the amount of pages I have to click through to get these stats is wearing me down. However I also think it's important to note that the Knicks had other defensive impact players like Starks, Oakley, etc. What great defenders did the Spurs have but Robinson? Was one year of old Rodman the best it got?

For Mourning, I just took his first seven playoff years, as his big injury came at age 30:

'93 Celtics (4 games): 108.7 RS, 108.7 series, 0.0
'93 Knicks (5 games): 106.1 RS, 104.9 series, -1.2
'95 Bulls (4 games): 109.5 RS, 112.2 series, +2.7
'96 Bulls (3 games): 115.2 RS, 119.2 series, +4.0
'97 Magic (5 games): 105.6 RS, 100.2 series, -4.4
'97 Knicks (7 games): 104.4 RS, 97.7 series, -6.7
'97 Bulls (5 games): 114.4 RS, 104.0 series, -10.4 (wow)
'98 Knicks (5 games): 103.0 RS, 105.3 series, +2.2
'99 Knicks (5 games): 98.6 RS, 103.4 series, +4.8
'00 Pistons (3 games): 107.3 RS, 89.2 series, -18.1 (ok, WOW)
'00 Knicks (7 games): 102.5 RS, 97.9 series, -4.6

Average, -2.9. Very very good. I'm not much of a believer in his offense even compared to Robinson's, but maybe I should be thinking about him more.

I'm a bit disappointed in this post Cecil, as you're usually a bit more thorough and precise with posting things like this. You say that the overall weighted defensive showing of Ewing's Knicks through the 92-93 season was but "a fraction" of Robinson's, before summarily glossing over the fact that "it probably gets a lot better if you extend through the rest of Ewing's career"......Gee....ya think? I feel like you shouldn't have posted incomplete data on Ewing that leaves out the entire back half of his career after he became a much more intelligent defender (despite being less athletic) and switched playing styles altogether to one that was more defensive oriented. By focusing primarily on the earliest of Ewing's playoff series, where 1.) He had a weaker supporting cast than Robinson had in his first few years (they had about equal supporting casts by 91-92) and 2.) The average regular season rank for the oRTG of Ewing's playoff opponents for the years you listed was 6th. The average regular season rank for the oRTG of Robinson's playoff opponents for the years you listed was 8th (8.3 to be precise), it appears falsely framed. Ewing had a more difficult task in so far as he was trying to stop more potent offenses than Robinson was in just the years you cited. But lets extend the numbers for Ewing's entire Knick career and see what we find....

For starters.....here are Robinson's pre-Duncan numbers again

Robinson
==================

89-90 Nuggets (Reg Season oRTG = 108) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 105.2) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -2.8

89-90 Blazers (Reg Season oRTG = 110.5) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 107.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -3.3

90-91 Warriors (Reg Season oRTG = 111.9) 6th in league (Series oRTG = 111.7) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = -0.2

*92-93 Blazers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.3) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 105.1) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -3.2

* (if we exclude game 1 where Drexler did not play then (Series oRTG = 108.5 in games 2-4) Diff = +0.2

92-93 Suns (Reg Season oRTG = 113.3) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 109.9) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = -3.4

93-94 Jazz (Reg Season oRTG = 108.6) 7th in league (Series oRTG = 110.6) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = +2

94-95 Nuggets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 103.1) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -6

94-95 Lakers (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1) 12th in league (Series oRTG = 97.9) = 6 games (won series) Diff = -11.2

94-95 Rockets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.7) 7th in league (Series oRTG = 110.6) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +0.9

95-96 Suns (Reg season oRTG = 110.3) 8th in league (Series oRTG = 109.3) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -1

95-96 Jazz (Reg Season oRTG = 113.3) 2nd in league (Series oRTG = 114.1) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +0.8


Avg oRTG faced: 110.2
Avg oRTG rank faced: 8.3

Avg oRTG diff = -2.57
Avg oRTG diff (adjusted for Drexler missing game 1 of the 93 Portland series) = -2.36

Faced the #1 oRTG in the league: one time

Lost all 3 series where his opponent's oRTG for their playoff series increased from their regular season oRTG


Now here's Patrick.....

Ewing
==========
87-88: Celtics (Reg Season oRTG = 115.4), 1st in league (Series oRTG = 117.3) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = +1.9

88-89: Sixers (Reg Season oRTG = 113.1), 3rd in league (Series oRTG = 107.5) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -5.6

88-89: Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1), 12th in league (Series oRTG = 115.8) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +6.7

89-90: Celtics (Reg Season oRTG = 112), 6th in league (Series oRTG = 119.3) = 5 games (won series) Diff = +7.3

89-90: Pistons (Reg Season oRTG = 109.9) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 114.5) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = +4.6

90-91: Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 114.6) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 116.1) = 3 games (lost series) Diff = +1.5

91-92: Pistons (Reg Season oRTG = 107.5) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 97.6) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -9.9

91-92 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 115.5) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 111.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -4.3

92-93 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 111.9) 5th in league (Series oRTG = 111.7) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -0.2

92-93 Hornets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.5) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 100.5) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -9

92-93 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 112.9) 2nd in league (Series oRTG = 112.4) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = -0.5

93-94 Nets (Reg Season oRTG = 107.2) 13th in league (Series oRTG = 95.9) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -11.3

93-94 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 106.1) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 106.7) = 7 games (won series) Diff = +0.6

93-94 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 107.8) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 100.1) = 7 games (won series) Diff = -7.7

93-94 Rockets (Reg Season oRTG = 105.9) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 100.1) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -5.8

94-95 Cavs (Reg Season oRTG = 105.3) 22nd in league (Series oRTG = 97.6) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -7.7

94-95 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 109.6) 8th in league (Series oRTG = 106.9) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -2.7

95-96 Cavs (Reg Season oRTG = 109.9) 10th in league (Series oRTG = 99.9) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -10

95-96 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 115.2) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 105.2) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = -10

96-97 Hornets (Reg Season oRTG = 110.9) 4th in league (Series oRTG = 110.4) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -0.5

96-97 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 106.8) 12th in league (Series oRTG = 99.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -7.6

97-98 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.4) 4th in league (Series oRTG = 106.5) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = -1.9

98-99 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 104.7) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 98.4) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -6.3

98-99 Hawks (Reg Season oRTG = 100.5) 19th in league (Series oRTG = 89.3) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -11.2

*98-99 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.7) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 106.15) = 2 games (of 6) (won series) Diff = -2.6

*Ewing played in games 1 and 2 of this series, before injuring himself at the end of game 2 and missing the rest of the playoffs. The series oRTG here is for the 2 games in which he played.

99-00 Raptors (Reg Season oRTG = 104.7) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 98.1) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -6.6

99-00 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 104.5) 17th in league (Series oRTG = 96.9) = 7 games (won series) Diff = -7.6

99-00 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.5) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 109.5) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +1



Avg oRTG faced: 109.2
Avg oRTG rank faced: 8.6


Avg oRTG diff: -3.68


Faced #1 regular season oRTG: six times

Won 2 series where his playoff opponent's oRTG for their series increased from the regular season

So we see that despite Ewing's entire Knick playoff record, and Robinson's entire pre-Duncan playoff record has them facing about the same strength of offensive opponent on average, by both actual oRTG (110.2 to 109.2) and oRTG rank relative to the league (8.6 to 8.3, or, both roughly faced the 8th best oRTG on average), Ewing comes out more than a full point better in oRTG point differential (-3.68 to -2.57), and if we use the adjusted difference that accounts for Drexler missing part of the 93 series, it's (-3.68 to -2.36).

Not only does looking at the complete picture show us that Ewing's average playoff oRTG differential wasn't "a fraction" of Robinson's as you claimed....but rather, his -3.68 mark is outright better than both Robinson (adjusted or unadjusted) and Mourning's. And if we just look at the playoff point differentials for Ewing during the Riley/Van Gundy years it becomes much more pronounced, but we don't have to only look at the Riley/Van Gundy years. Ewing still comes out ahead even when we include the Stu Jackson, Rick Pitino, and John MacLeod years (by a comfortable margin).

Furthermore, Robinson's best point differential in any given series was the 95 Lakers at -11.2. Ewing's best mark of -11.3 (against the Nets in 94) not only beats this, but he has another differential equal to Robinson's best, of -11.2 vs. the Hawks in 99 (with none of the same teammates!). In fact, after the Lakers series in 95, Robinson's next best single season oRTG point differential was a -6, against the Nuggets that same year. Ewing has TWELVE (!!!!) single series that are better than Robinson's second best of -6, six of which are -9 or better. Also, Robinson's Spurs held the league best oRTG Phoenix Suns to a -3.6 in their 93 playoff series. Impressive for sure. Now let's note that Ewing's Knicks held the league best oRTG Chicago Bulls to a -4.3 in their 1992 playoff series, and the league best oRTG 72 win 1996 Chicago Bulls to a -10 in their 1996 playoff series.


Of course, Robinson starts to look better as a playoff defender once Duncan arrives, but Ewing never had the luxury of playing with another top 10 player so it's only fair that we look at their results when both Ewing and Robinson were the most important players on their teams. So the idea that Robinson was vastly superior as a playoff defensive anchor to Ewing just doesn't seem to hold water. And, if you've been reading the previous threads regarding Robinson and his pre-Duncan playoff foibles, you'll remember that Ewing was going up against much better playoff defenses on a yearly basis than Drob, and still performing better offensively. So....Robinson's offense suffered more against easier defenses.....Robinson's defense (in the context that you have presented: regular season to playoff oRTG differentials) is worse despite them both playing relatively equal offensive units....so what exactly is the argument for pre-Duncan Robinson being a better playoff performer (or even a better player period) than Ewing agian?
Oh, that's right....

However I also think it's important to note that the Knicks had other defensive impact players like Starks, Oakley, etc. What great defenders did the Spurs have but Robinson? Was one year of old Rodman the best it got?

As usual, people want to assign the lion's share of that defensive impact to the schemes and style of play, to his coaches, and/or his teammates instead of giving it to, you know, the only single person (player or coach) who was there for every one of these seasons.

FWIW, Rodman was 1st team All D in 95 and 2nd team All D in 94 (also for the Spurs). Starks was 2nd team all D in 94. Oakley was 1st team all D in 94 and 2nd team all D in 98. It wasn't like either Ewing or Robinson had a roster overflowing with perennial All D selections as teammates. Starks had a positive DBPM once his entire career....a 0.2 in 93-94. Robinson had SIX teammates playing at least 15mpg with a DBPM greater than that in the 1991 season alone. He had four teammates playing at least 14 mpg per game in 1995 with a DBPM above Starks career high. Oakley and Mason were legitimately great defensive players, and while Starks was good he certainly wasn't Bruce Bowen. Ewing did have more defensive minded teammates over the course of both of their careers, Robinson had more offensive help to balance that out.

As for Oakley and Mason...Mason was no longer a Knick by 96-97 and Oakley was traded in 98-99. Ewing's avg playoff oRTG differential after Mason was traded: -4.83 (!!!), and Ewing's avg playoff oRTG differential after Oakley was traded: -5.5 (!!!!)..... but yea, let's give all that credit to Starks, Oakley and Mason.

And on the topic of credit and blame....if we are going to place all of the blame on Rodman for the Spurs losing to the Rockets in 95, are we also going to give him any of the credit for that -11.2 differential vs the Lakers or the -6 differential vs the Nuggets that same postseason where he played well in both of those series?

[Odinn21]

What is the current tally? I don’t vote in project due to the person started it but i can participate to help it go further because we’re too swamped in Robinson discussion (very much like Curry discussions a few spots ago) and the project isn’t going forward with this.

I’m far away from my PC and will be like this for another week and a half, or maybe two. That’s why I use mobile browsers and try to keep short and to the point. Looking through this many and long messages have me dizziness when I tried to count the tally... LOL.

[E-Balla]

I'm not going to go through this play-by-play, but I made it through the first stretch of five or six and I really think you're being extremely critical of defense which is not that bad. Hakeem's positioning does not seem that overwhelmingly good to me, Robinson's doing a fine job of pushing him off the spot as he catches the ball, and Hakeem's taking a looooot of moving fades.

Overall I came away with the impression that Hakeem is really damn good. Like damn near unstoppable good. DRob looked pretty good on defense as well but not quite top 5 defender ever. There seemed to be a fair amount of miscommunications on D and I dont know if that’s on him or his coach.

Any suggestions for who guarded Hakeem the best? I’m actually curious how others managed to stop some of the stuff he was doing.

Look at Ewing in 94.

To both of you I think you're underestimating how much you have to fight for post position if you think Robinson's small pushes was him fighting for position. He's not that weak to where it justifies that weak fighting for position.

Watch on YouTube

This is how tough defense against a player as good as Hakeem should look. At all positions lockdown defenders (Pat Bev, Tony Allen, Draymond, etc.) play rough on defense and Robinson didn't at all.

Hell Oakley and Mase were using all of their body weight the few times they got mismatched because they knew. Make the catch too easy and he's going to be automatic. The few times Ewing didn't fight Hakeem got the ball in great position. At 25:21 you can see back to back possessions of Ewing and Hakeem going at it and see the clear gap between that and what DRob did. You can also see how Hakeem guards Ewing way tougher than DRob guarded him.

Also on the 2nd play for the Rockets after that mark you'll see something Hakeem had to do to Ewing a lot in that series to get to his spot which is grab one of Ewing's legs so he only has one leg on the ground and no leverage, a clear offensive foul, but the type of rough play refs let slide down low.

[LA Bird]

What is the current tally? I don’t vote in project due to the person started it but i can participate to help it go further because we’re too swamped in Robinson discussion (very much like Curry discussions a few spots ago) and the project isn’t going forward with this.

I’m far away from my PC and will be like this for another week and a half, or maybe two. That’s why I use mobile browsers and try to keep short and to the point. Looking through this many and long messages have me dizziness when I tried to count the tally... LOL.

Currently, the point leaders are 95 DRob (18.0), 94 DRob (11.0) and 08 Kobe (6.5) after 9 votes. We would need 3 more votes to move onto the next round without deadline extensions. Also, the poster who started this project has disappeared so you are most welcome to vote in the project in future if you would like to.

[cecilthesheep]

Thanks, those are good statistics to provide. However, I do want to be clear that the contention is not that Robinson was outright bad on defence during his prime playoff runs. I also think it is important to remember that we are discussing him comparatively, not in isolation. How do those numbers compare with Ewing, Mourning, or Dikembe?

Dikembe at his offensive peak was nothing close to even D-Rob's bad offensive moments imo; his defense was undeniably on par with anyone's, but I don't think he merits this conversation quite yet. Here's Ewing from his age 24 to 30 seasons:

'88 Celtics (4 games): 115.4 RS, 117.3 series, +1.9
'89 76ers (3 games): 113.0 RS, 107.5 series, -5.5
'89 Bulls (6 games): 109.1 RS, 115.8 series, +6.7
'90 Celtics (5 games): 112.0 RS, 119.3 series, +7.3
'90 Pistons (5 games): 109.9 RS, 114.5 series, +4.6
'91 Bulls (3 games): 114.6 RS, 116.1 series, +1.5
'92 Pistons (5 games): 107.5 RS, 97.6 series, -9.9
'92 Bulls (7 games): 115.5 RS, 111.2 series, -4.3
'93 Pacers (4 games): 111.9 RS, 111.7 series, -0.2
'93 Hornets (5 games): 109.5 RS, 100.5 series, -9.0
'93 Bulls (6 games): 112.9 RS, 112.4 series, -0.5

Overall weighted average: -0.6, a fraction of Robinson's. Now, I bet this probably gets a lot better if you extend through Ewing's remaining All-Star years, like quite a bit better. I'd do that, but frankly the amount of pages I have to click through to get these stats is wearing me down. However I also think it's important to note that the Knicks had other defensive impact players like Starks, Oakley, etc. What great defenders did the Spurs have but Robinson? Was one year of old Rodman the best it got?

For Mourning, I just took his first seven playoff years, as his big injury came at age 30:

'93 Celtics (4 games): 108.7 RS, 108.7 series, 0.0
'93 Knicks (5 games): 106.1 RS, 104.9 series, -1.2
'95 Bulls (4 games): 109.5 RS, 112.2 series, +2.7
'96 Bulls (3 games): 115.2 RS, 119.2 series, +4.0
'97 Magic (5 games): 105.6 RS, 100.2 series, -4.4
'97 Knicks (7 games): 104.4 RS, 97.7 series, -6.7
'97 Bulls (5 games): 114.4 RS, 104.0 series, -10.4 (wow)
'98 Knicks (5 games): 103.0 RS, 105.3 series, +2.2
'99 Knicks (5 games): 98.6 RS, 103.4 series, +4.8
'00 Pistons (3 games): 107.3 RS, 89.2 series, -18.1 (ok, WOW)
'00 Knicks (7 games): 102.5 RS, 97.9 series, -4.6

Average, -2.9. Very very good. I'm not much of a believer in his offense even compared to Robinson's, but maybe I should be thinking about him more.

I'm a bit disappointed in this post Cecil, as you're usually a bit more thorough and precise with posting things like this. You say that the overall weighted defensive showing of Ewing's Knicks through the 92-93 season was but "a fraction" of Robinson's, before summarily glossing over the fact that "it probably gets a lot better if you extend through the rest of Ewing's career"......Gee....ya think? I feel like you shouldn't have posted incomplete data on Ewing that leaves out the entire back half of his career after he became a much more intelligent defender (despite being less athletic) and switched playing styles altogether to one that was more defensive oriented. By focusing primarily on the earliest of Ewing's playoff series, where 1.) He had a weaker supporting cast than Robinson had in his first few years (they had about equal supporting casts by 91-92) and 2.) The average regular season rank for the oRTG of Ewing's playoff opponents for the years you listed was 6th. The average regular season rank for the oRTG of Robinson's playoff opponents for the years you listed was 8th (8.3 to be precise), it appears falsely framed. Ewing had a more difficult task in so far as he was trying to stop more potent offenses than Robinson was in just the years you cited. But lets extend the numbers for Ewing's entire Knick career and see what we find....

For starters.....here are Robinson's pre-Duncan numbers again

Robinson
==================

89-90 Nuggets (Reg Season oRTG = 108) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 105.2) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -2.8

89-90 Blazers (Reg Season oRTG = 110.5) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 107.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -3.3

90-91 Warriors (Reg Season oRTG = 111.9) 6th in league (Series oRTG = 111.7) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = -0.2

*92-93 Blazers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.3) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 105.1) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -3.2

* (if we exclude game 1 where Drexler did not play then (Series oRTG = 108.5 in games 2-4) Diff = +0.2

92-93 Suns (Reg Season oRTG = 113.3) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 109.9) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = -3.4

93-94 Jazz (Reg Season oRTG = 108.6) 7th in league (Series oRTG = 110.6) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = +2

94-95 Nuggets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 103.1) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -6

94-95 Lakers (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1) 12th in league (Series oRTG = 97.9) = 6 games (won series) Diff = -11.2

94-95 Rockets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.7) 7th in league (Series oRTG = 110.6) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +0.9

95-96 Suns (Reg season oRTG = 110.3) 8th in league (Series oRTG = 109.3) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -1

95-96 Jazz (Reg Season oRTG = 113.3) 2nd in league (Series oRTG = 114.1) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +0.8


Avg oRTG faced: 110.2
Avg oRTG rank faced: 8.3

Avg oRTG diff = -2.57
Avg oRTG diff (adjusted for Drexler missing game 1 of the 93 Portland series) = -2.36

Faced the #1 oRTG in the league: one time

Lost all 3 series where his opponent's oRTG for their playoff series increased from their regular season oRTG


Now here's Patrick.....

Ewing
==========
87-88: Celtics (Reg Season oRTG = 115.4), 1st in league (Series oRTG = 117.3) = 4 games (lost series) Diff = +1.9

88-89: Sixers (Reg Season oRTG = 113.1), 3rd in league (Series oRTG = 107.5) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -5.6

88-89: Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 109.1), 12th in league (Series oRTG = 115.8) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +6.7

89-90: Celtics (Reg Season oRTG = 112), 6th in league (Series oRTG = 119.3) = 5 games (won series) Diff = +7.3

89-90: Pistons (Reg Season oRTG = 109.9) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 114.5) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = +4.6

90-91: Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 114.6) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 116.1) = 3 games (lost series) Diff = +1.5

91-92: Pistons (Reg Season oRTG = 107.5) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 97.6) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -9.9

91-92 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 115.5) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 111.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -4.3

92-93 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 111.9) 5th in league (Series oRTG = 111.7) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -0.2

92-93 Hornets (Reg Season oRTG = 109.5) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 100.5) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -9

92-93 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 112.9) 2nd in league (Series oRTG = 112.4) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = -0.5

93-94 Nets (Reg Season oRTG = 107.2) 13th in league (Series oRTG = 95.9) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -11.3

93-94 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 106.1) 14th in league (Series oRTG = 106.7) = 7 games (won series) Diff = +0.6

93-94 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 107.8) 11th in league (Series oRTG = 100.1) = 7 games (won series) Diff = -7.7

93-94 Rockets (Reg Season oRTG = 105.9) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 100.1) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -5.8

94-95 Cavs (Reg Season oRTG = 105.3) 22nd in league (Series oRTG = 97.6) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -7.7

94-95 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 109.6) 8th in league (Series oRTG = 106.9) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -2.7

95-96 Cavs (Reg Season oRTG = 109.9) 10th in league (Series oRTG = 99.9) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -10

95-96 Bulls (Reg Season oRTG = 115.2) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 105.2) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = -10

96-97 Hornets (Reg Season oRTG = 110.9) 4th in league (Series oRTG = 110.4) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -0.5

96-97 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 106.8) 12th in league (Series oRTG = 99.2) = 7 games (lost series) Diff = -7.6

97-98 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.4) 4th in league (Series oRTG = 106.5) = 5 games (lost series) Diff = -1.9

98-99 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 104.7) 9th in league (Series oRTG = 98.4) = 5 games (won series) Diff = -6.3

98-99 Hawks (Reg Season oRTG = 100.5) 19th in league (Series oRTG = 89.3) = 4 games (won series) Diff = -11.2

*98-99 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.7) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 106.15) = 2 games (of 6) (won series) Diff = -2.6

*Ewing played in games 1 and 2 of this series, before injuring himself at the end of game 2 and missing the rest of the playoffs. The series oRTG here is for the 2 games in which he played.

99-00 Raptors (Reg Season oRTG = 104.7) 15th in league (Series oRTG = 98.1) = 3 games (won series) Diff = -6.6

99-00 Heat (Reg Season oRTG = 104.5) 17th in league (Series oRTG = 96.9) = 7 games (won series) Diff = -7.6

99-00 Pacers (Reg Season oRTG = 108.5) 1st in league (Series oRTG = 109.5) = 6 games (lost series) Diff = +1



Avg oRTG faced: 109.2
Avg oRTG rank faced: 8.6


Avg oRTG diff: -3.68


Faced #1 regular season oRTG: six times

Won 2 series where his playoff opponent's oRTG for their series increased from the regular season

So we see that despite Ewing's entire Knick playoff record, and Robinson's entire pre-Duncan playoff record has them facing about the same strength of offensive opponent on average, by both actual oRTG (110.2 to 109.2) and oRTG rank relative to the league (8.6 to 8.3, or, both roughly faced the 8th best oRTG on average), Ewing comes out more than a full point better in oRTG point differential (-3.68 to -2.57), and if we use the adjusted difference that accounts for Drexler missing part of the 93 series, it's (-3.68 to -2.36).

Not only does looking at the complete picture show us that Ewing's average playoff oRTG differential wasn't "a fraction" of Robinson's as you claimed....but rather, his -3.68 mark is outright better than both Robinson (adjusted or unadjusted) and Mourning's. And if we just look at the playoff point differentials for Ewing during the Riley/Van Gundy years it becomes much more pronounced, but we don't have to only look at the Riley/Van Gundy years. Ewing still comes out ahead even when we include the Stu Jackson, Rick Pitino, and John MacLeod years (by a comfortable margin).

Furthermore, Robinson's best point differential in any given series was the 95 Lakers at -11.2. Ewing's best mark of -11.3 (against the Nets in 94) not only beats this, but he has another differential equal to Robinson's best, of -11.2 vs. the Hawks in 99 (with none of the same teammates!). In fact, after the Lakers series in 95, Robinson's next best single season oRTG point differential was a -6, against the Nuggets that same year. Ewing has TWELVE (!!!!) single series that are better than Robinson's second best of -6, six of which are -9 or better. Also, Robinson's Spurs held the league best oRTG Phoenix Suns to a -3.6 in their 93 playoff series. Impressive for sure. Now let's note that Ewing's Knicks held the league best oRTG Chicago Bulls to a -4.3 in their 1992 playoff series, and the league best oRTG 72 win 1996 Chicago Bulls to a -10 in their 1996 playoff series.


Of course, Robinson starts to look better as a playoff defender once Duncan arrives, but Ewing never had the luxury of playing with another top 10 player so it's only fair that we look at their results when both Ewing and Robinson were the most important players on their teams. So the idea that Robinson was vastly superior as a playoff defensive anchor to Ewing just doesn't seem to hold water. And, if you've been reading the previous threads regarding Robinson and his pre-Duncan playoff foibles, you'll remember that Ewing was going up against much better playoff defenses on a yearly basis than Drob, and still performing better offensively. So....Robinson's offense suffered more against easier defenses.....Robinson's defense (in the context that you have presented: regular season to playoff oRTG differentials) is worse despite them both playing relatively equal offensive units....so what exactly is the argument for pre-Duncan Robinson being a better playoff performer (or even a better player period) than Ewing agian?
Oh, that's right....

However I also think it's important to note that the Knicks had other defensive impact players like Starks, Oakley, etc. What great defenders did the Spurs have but Robinson? Was one year of old Rodman the best it got?

As usual, people want to assign the lion's share of that defensive impact to the schemes and style of play, to his coaches, and/or his teammates instead of giving it to, you know, the only single person (player or coach) who was there for every one of these seasons.

FWIW, Rodman was 1st team All D in 95 and 2nd team All D in 94 (also for the Spurs). Starks was 2nd team all D in 94. Oakley was 1st team all D in 94 and 2nd team all D in 98. It wasn't like either Ewing or Robinson had a roster overflowing with perennial All D selections as teammates. Starks had a positive DBPM once his entire career....a 0.2 in 93-94. Robinson had SIX teammates playing at least 15mpg with a DBPM greater than that in the 1991 season alone. He had four teammates playing at least 14 mpg per game in 1995 with a DBPM above Starks career high. Oakley and Mason were legitimately great defensive players, and while Starks was good he certainly wasn't Bruce Bowen. Ewing did have more defensive minded teammates over the course of both of their careers, Robinson had more offensive help to balance that out.

As for Oakley and Mason...Mason was no longer a Knick by 96-97 and Oakley was traded in 98-99. Ewing's avg playoff oRTG differential after Mason was traded: -4.83 (!!!), and Ewing's avg playoff oRTG differential after Oakley was traded: -5.5 (!!!!)..... but yea, let's give all that credit to Starks, Oakley and Mason.

And on the topic of credit and blame....if we are going to place all of the blame on Rodman for the Spurs losing to the Rockets in 95, are we also going to give him any of the credit for that -11.2 differential vs the Lakers or the -6 differential vs the Nuggets that same postseason where he played well in both of those series?

Damn, I knew Ewing's stats would get better, but I honestly didn't realize how much better. I just took 24-30 because it was the same age as Robinson was. This is very impressive and I'll definitely be thinking about voting for Ewing in future threads, with the caveat that he had some of the same playoff issues on offense as Robinson and his offensive and defensive peaks do not intersect the way Robinson's did. But overall, yeah, great points, you're totally right and I messed up by not bothering to extend the evaluation through the rest of Ewing's All-Star years.

I stand by the thing about supporting casts, though. DBPM is a terrible stat imo, especially because of how it consistently underrates guards. Gary Payton's career DBPM is a big fat zero, with a career high of 1.4 and only two years above 1. I don't think it's wrong to say Starks was a better defender than any perimeter guy Robinson played with. I also think Rodman by the time he got to the Spurs was still a good defender but his reputation outstripped his actual performance, while Oakley was consistent throughout the 90s. Not that Rodman was bad, but he was definitely into the board-hunting stage of his career which was sometimes detrimental ... I'd take Oakley every time.

To be clear, I of course agree that Ewing deserves the biggest share of the credit for the Knicks' defense. A supporting cast is only that, a supporting cast, and Ewing was the anchor that made it all possible. But, it does matter when you have consistently great guys next to you, and based on the players I'd expect the Knicks' defense to be a little better than the Spurs', even assuming Robinson was the best defender in the league. Again though I don't mean to discredit the points you've made. Those numbers are hard to argue with.

[Clyde Frazier]

Wow time snuck up on me...

Ballot #1 - 11 Dirk

Dirk had an incredible regular season topped off by a championship run where he was about unstoppable as a player could get. His combo of elite footwork and patience on offense developed over the few seasons prior paid off as his teammates finally stepped up to support him.

Ballot#2 - 90 Ewing

Lending some support for Ewing here. Being at his peak athletically in 1990, Ewing was a workhorse on both ends of the floor. His combination of volume scoring on great efficiency and ability to anchor a defense should be worthy of this range. Led the 13th ranked SRS knicks to a 1st round upset of the 8th ranked SRS celtics in the first round. Would end up being eliminated by the eventual champion pistons, put still put up a valiant effort in the series, with 27.2 PPG. 9.6 RPG, 2.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.2 BPG on 56% TS. Pistons also ranked 2nd in defense that season. If only Riley got his hands on Ewing a few years earlier...

Ballot #3 - 95 David Robinson

Could flip flop with Ewing here, but need to look into it further. An incredible physical specimen who did just about everything you could ask for from the center position. Extremely mobile for his size with the ability to run the floor. I do think his playoff struggles are a bit overstated.

[Clyde Frazier]

--

One other suggestion for getting more votes: with 24 hours to go, tag everyone again for anyone who forgot. I can help out with that too.

[penbeast0]

Getting a lot tougher and I'm not doing as much research as I would like to but, reading others posts here and using my own personal prejudices . . .

Dirk 11 -- wasn't a huge Dirk fan before this but he really stepped it up
Mikan 49 -- very iffy vote. Yes, he was easily the most dominant but the competition at this point in the NBA's history takes a massive hit. Almost voted Connie Hawkins 68 over him.
Moses 81 -- 83 is sexier since he won a title but he was a one man wrecking crew in 81 and his team needed his scoring more and his passing less which helps him.

[Odinn21]

What is the current tally? I don’t vote in project due to the person started it but i can participate to help it go further because we’re too swamped in Robinson discussion (very much like Curry discussions a few spots ago) and the project isn’t going forward with this.

I’m far away from my PC and will be like this for another week and a half, or maybe two. That’s why I use mobile browsers and try to keep short and to the point. Looking through this many and long messages have me dizziness when I tried to count the tally... LOL.

Currently, the point leaders are 95 DRob (18.0), 94 DRob (11.0) and 08 Kobe (6.5) after 9 votes. We would need 3 more votes to move onto the next round without deadline extensions. Also, the poster who started this project has disappeared so you are most welcome to vote in the project in future if you would like to.

Oh, OK then, nice. There are two new votes. And if you count my vote, we’ll be moving to the next spot.

1. 1983 Moses Malone
Well, it’s too hard to pick a single season for Moses from 1980-81 to 1982-83. Three great choices... But I’m gonna go with the safest choice. Dominant on every level. According to my own calculations (based on box score numbers though), Moses was on par with many goat level legends such as MJ, Bird, Magic, LeBron regarding performance on a loaded team. Playing on a loaded team, and benefiting from it, is not a con for Moses because he performed as well as anybody.

2. 1993 Charles Barkley
Natural scorer and rebounder and it wasn’t like he didn’t pay attention on defense in this particular season. That WCF performance was something to behold. The Sonics were 5th in ppg allowed and 2nd drtg (also, despite the W numbers, they led the league in SRS) and that 44/24 game 7 performance is one of the best ever game 7 performances. Also, despite losing in 6, the Suns didn’t get outscored by the Bulls in the NBA Finals. That was the level of Chuck elevating the team. I’m particularly big on this because there are team performances winning the series despite not outscoring the opponent but those series are usually decided in the last game, either game 5 or game 7. Not in this case.

3. 2011 Nowitzki
Well, I argued I consider 2006 as Nowitzki’s peak and the last conversation swayed me a little bit. But the thing changed my pick was Dirk blew one big lead in a series, and was very near to blow another one. I watched some of the highlights of SAS-DAL series and Dirk was on the verge of blowing a 3-1 lead if it wasn’t for Manu’s one idiotic single play. Realising that made me go for 2011 as Dirk’s peak. Even though I’m still considering 2008 Kobe. Kobe’s dominating performance against the WC in 2008 was better than Dirk’s performance against the WC in 2011. And if LeBron didn’t choke, Dirk wouldn’t win the series just like Kobe didn’t against the Celtics in 2008.

I had a change of heart.
3. 2008 Kobe
I’m not deleting that Nowitzki part to share my thought of train. My 3rd ballot vote goes to 2008 Kobe.

[LA Bird]

We have 12 votes. The final totals are:

1) 95 Robinson = 20.0 points
2) 11 Dirk = 14.0 points
3) 94 Robinson = 11.0 points
4) 83 Moses = 9.0 points
5) 08 Kobe = 8.5 points

95 Robinson wins.

[migya]

Well, I’m going to try another way to put it about Admiral.

Name David Robinson’s best playoff series in his peak years. Then compare it to the best playoff series of the following names;
Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Moses, Nowitzki, Bryant, Durant, CP3, Zeke, Nash, Kidd, Frazier, Harden, Havlicek, Cowens, Big E. These are the ones I thought about very quickly.

Then compare the number of good/elite/great playoff series performances among those names. Especially against good/elite/great defensive teams.

BTW, I’d like to clear out I’m not saying all of the players I listed are better than Robinson. Just pointing out the vote is about goat peaks and he doesn’t have a case to be in the top 20. That’s what I’m saying.

It's telling his best series is also the one everyone likes to say we unfairly judge his whole career off of because as much as we talking about him getting dominated by Hakeem, it's clearly the most impressive 7 game series he's ever played.

I don't think we unfairly judge Robinson's career off of that series. I think we completely misjudge what happened in that series and how damaging it was for Rodman to essentially just quit on help defense. He played, at worst, fine. Not a player in the league who could have guarded Hakeem on an island like that.

I also don't think it was his best series ever, though. Look at what he did to the Lakers just one series before. And look at what he did in 1993 against the Suns. Or the 1990 Trail Blazers. Or the first-round beatdowns on the 1990 Nuggets and 1996 Suns. The embarrassing loss in '91 was also not his fault at all - we're talking about Robinson here, not his teammates, and he put up 25 points on 76% true shooting.

As much as Robinson underachieved and even underperformed in the playoffs before Duncan, he had very weak, untalented teams, to say the least. Smith and Maxwell, then Drexler, were better than the backcourt Robinson had. Otis Thorpe was better than any big Robinson had next to him, as Cummings didn't last long on the Spurs and was past it and Rodman was an offensive liability the two seasons he was there. Elliot was decent but Horry was a far better defender and all-around player. Comparing Olajuwon's teams to Robinson's. Robinson had to confer much defensively and offensively.

[FrogBros4Life]

Damn, I knew Ewing's stats would get better, but I honestly didn't realize how much better. I just took 24-30 because it was the same age as Robinson was. This is very impressive and I'll definitely be thinking about voting for Ewing in future threads, with the caveat that he had some of the same playoff issues on offense as Robinson and his offensive and defensive peaks do not intersect the way Robinson's did. But overall, yeah, great points, you're totally right and I messed up by not bothering to extend the evaluation through the rest of Ewing's All-Star years.

I stand by the thing about supporting casts, though. DBPM is a terrible stat imo, especially because of how it consistently underrates guards. Gary Payton's career DBPM is a big fat zero, with a career high of 1.4 and only two years above 1. I don't think it's wrong to say Starks was a better defender than any perimeter guy Robinson played with. I also think Rodman by the time he got to the Spurs was still a good defender but his reputation outstripped his actual performance, while Oakley was consistent throughout the 90s. Not that Rodman was bad, but he was definitely into the board-hunting stage of his career which was sometimes detrimental ... I'd take Oakley every time.

To be clear, I of course agree that Ewing deserves the biggest share of the credit for the Knicks' defense. A supporting cast is only that, a supporting cast, and Ewing was the anchor that made it all possible. But, it does matter when you have consistently great guys next to you, and based on the players I'd expect the Knicks' defense to be a little better than the Spurs', even assuming Robinson was the best defender in the league. Again though I don't mean to discredit the points you've made. Those numbers are hard to argue with.

Robinson's already in, so I don't wanna clutter up the current peaks thread with another Robinson response, but I did want to address a few things here. I realize you were just doing the initial comparison by age because it's an easy way to approach something like this, and it's a common way that players are often compared. But Robinson is a very unique case as a rookie/young player in that he came out of the gate playing at an MVP level, whereas most players, even the other ATGs need a few years under their belt to start making serious impact. So comparing Robinson's first 5 years to almost anybody's first 5 years will probably have Robinson looking clearly, if not significantly better. That was my only issue with your approach there, and thought that comparing them both at their best was a more accurate way to see who was better at their best, not who was better at age 26.

I agree DBPM (and OBPM) have limited trustworthiness in what they actually tell me about how good a player is, but even if I don't think it's a great stat to begin with, I'm less critical of it when used to compare players from the same eras, even more so when they played in similar systems (in this case, two teams built around two way big men, with complimentary scoring coming primarily from the perimeter, with extra defense and rebounding in the frontcourt) because even if the stat is somewhat inaccurate, it's inaccurate for players on every team, not just John Starks. John Starks was a better defender than his DBPM would suggest, but you could probably say the same thing about a guy like Avery Johnson. My point to include it was simply to show that by some metrics that aim to capture defensive value, Robinson's teammates weren't as atrocious as some are saying. JR Reid was a good defender, Antoine Carr was a good defender, Willie Anderson was a pretty good defender, Rodman was a GREAT defender for the two years he was there (the Rockets series in 95 aside). Was his defensive help as good as Ewing's? I wouldn't go that far....but Robinson certainly had some serviceable defensive components on his rosters over the years.

Back to Rodman...I'm not sure I'd say he was merely getting by on reputation by 1995. The Bulls only had a top 5 defense once during their first 3 peat, a 4th place finish. After acquiring Rodman, the Bulls had a top 5 defense all three years of their 2nd 3peat, with a 4th place finish this time being their lowest. Rodman still had defensive value, and I think he played well in San Antonio for the most part. And I keep reading contradictory things here about that Houston series....people are saying that the Spurs made the right choice not to double Hakeem and leave the 3 point shooters open, yet Rodman is getting crucified for.....not doubling on Hakeem and leaving someone like Horry open? Was Rodman literally the only Spur that was supposed to come double Hakeem, and he refused to do so?

Anyway, in case you or anyone else is interested, I ran the rest of the numbers between Ewing and Drob's playoff oRTG differentials to find the weighted averages for Robinson's entire career (including the Duncan years), just the years where Robinson and Duncan played in the post season together, and just Ewing's years under Riley/Van Gundy only. Combined with the results from the last post, I will list them all from worst to best.

5.) Robinson's pre-Duncan playoff years (90-96)
Avg oRTG diff (adjusted for Drexler missing part of the 93 series): -2.36
Avg oRTG diff: -2.57 (unadjusted)

4.) Ewing's entire Knick playoff career (88-00)
Avg oRTG diff: -3.68

3.) Robinson's entire playoff career (including Duncan years) (90-03)
Avg oRTG diff: -5.096

2.) Ewing's Riley/Van Gundy playoff years only (92-00)
Avg oRTG diff: -5.3

1.) Robinson only with Duncan in the playoffs (98-03)
Avg oRTG diff = -6.9


So....I expected the Robinson and Duncan years to be far and away the best of these, but I also expected that Robinson's entire career would also appear a bit better than Ewing's Riley/Van Gundy years on the strength of Duncan's impact once he arrived, despite Ewing besting Robinson when looking at Ewing's whole career vs. Drob's pre Duncan years. However, we see that even with Duncan's impact factored into the back half of Drob's career, Robinson's oRTG differential still comes up short to Ewing's Riley/Van Gundy seasons. That's pretty remarkable as a testament to how good of a defensive anchor Ewing actually was in his prime. It's also worth noting that for the final two years of Robinson's career, they were also playing with Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Malik Rose, Terry Porter and some other capable defenders which is only going to make them even better as a defensive unit.