RealGM

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:16 pm**

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.
If you're repeating votes from previous rounds, copy and paste the reasoning because "see previous thread for explanation" will not be counted as a valid vote.

Extended deadline: 2pm August 27 Eastern Time
The deadline will be extended by 24 hours (up to twice) if there is less than 12 votes or there is a tie for first

THE VOTING SYSTEM:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

Spoiler:

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:04 pm**

Woo, come on, guys, how about we keep this guard streak going? :wink:

1. 2008 Kobe
With Wade and West in, think Ardee’s post is fully applicable as a leading argument. Scored well and efficiently, had strong impact metrics, acted as a true leader, was entering his peak passing years, performed incredibly well in the conference playoffs, and made a still flawed and adapting team look much better than it actually was. Finals is a blemish, but buy notion that 2009 only looked better because the team was meshing well. Also, we are mostly past the point of being able to seek those types of top-to-bottom brilliant playoff runs, unless we want to get really old-school.

2. 2009 Kobe
Strep’s numbers may be a bit off, but his broader point stands. Impressive boxscore year, excellent playoffs across the board, laudable leadership... More well-rounded than 2006, and more clearly near the top of the league. A lot of the team metrics for both years feel heavily dependent on him directly, and that also speaks volumes.

3. 2011 Dirk
Led league in RAPM. Led team to its best healthy SRS. Ran through profoundly difficult western conference with an incredible individual performance. Finals decline comparable to Kobe’s decline. Few players ever matched his shooting and off-ball impact. Finally put it all together, and achieved an all-time title reputation.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:44 pm**

LA Bird wrote:A best of 3 in round 1 made it easier for an upset so it is not a given that the Rockets still beat the Lakers if they had played them in a later round.

True but Moses was dominating them and I have no real reason to believe they weren't just about neck and neck. They were 2-3 against LA in the regular season too and all but the first game they played that year were close. Moses just canceled out Kareem enough to make Houston better than LA or evenly matched, which is an accomplishment in itself.

And they went to 7 against the Spurs, with Calvin Murphy being the hero in that game not Moses. If Sean Elliot had dropped 42 to lead the Spurs to the win while Robinson shot 6-19 for 21 in a G7, would you still be praising DRob for carrying a team of scrubs to victory?

If he averaged 29.3/11.5/2.0 on 59.3 TS% in games 1-6 including 34.0 ppg on 65 TS% in their first 3 wins, yeah I would. He averaged 28/12/2 in the series, one great game from Calvin Murphy doesn't change that. I don't know why you're laser focusing on a single game of a 7 game series as if that means it's no longer true that he carried his team.

Winning the championship in 83 doesn't prove much because Robinson could also have won in Moses's place. The proof for Moses as a lone superstar came in 81 and I just don't think it is particularly impressive given the circumstances and his lack of playoff success in other seasons.

Name me how many other players have made the Finals with a supporting cast anywhere near as weak as Moses'? How is it not proving much that he did something almost no one else has done? What exactly has David Robinson the first option accomplished in the playoffs outside of embarrassing performances?

And sure Robinson would've won in 83, he would've also been the second best player on the team to Dr. J. Not really comparable to Moses.

Don't know of a postseason scoring stat has Garnett way better than Robinson so you should go ahead and post it. Way better production to me would be something like 5+ ppg or TS% higher and I just don't see it.

Well you can already look at Robinson's series to series breakdown I posted. In KG's own postseason career we can point to vastly superior performances in 99 and 01 vs San Antonio and the 08 ECF vs Detroit. All series better than Robinson's best scoring series against any defenses worth mentioning. Really I want to include a bunch of other performances because thanks to the rules from 99-04 KG in most of those years played defenses stronger than any defense Robinson has ever performed against. Just doesn't feel right also including how KG carved up Dirk and C. Webb while their teams were below league average.

20.4 ppg on 54.2% TS is not far from Robinson's prime average of 21.0 ppg on 51.7% TS against good defenses that you quoted.

That 20.4 ppg on 54.2 TS% was still against better defenses than Robinson has ever played. It's just those are the best defenses Robinson have ever played. And it might not be far, but it's clearly superior production from a version of KG no one would call his peak or even a top 3 season of his.

I think the gap here is this, KG was a more volatile scorer in the postseason. He had a lot of terrible performances, but a lot of good ones. Robinson was consistent, just consistently bad. I'll take the guy that might give me a good series over the guy that'll always give me a bad series. Adding to that we never saw Robinson vs any defenses better than -3. That's a big deal because if he can't be expected to show up against a team like that, why would I think there's any chance he's showing up against the 99 and 01 Spurs?

Given the sample size is like 4 series against good defenses over his prime, I feel like you putting too much emphasis on the difference between having 0 and 1 good series. 0/4 and 1/4 are both poor. Not having that 1 good series doesn't mean Robinson is automatically on a lower tier than Garnett as first option scorers.

0 out of 4 is pretty damning when we're talking about including him with guys that are proven. This isn't 0/4 on being spectacular, it's 0/4 in even being passable. I can't think of anyone else that got 4 opportunities and failed all 4. 1 can be excused, 2 can be excused, 3 is fishy, 4 is a problem. I mean the only reason the sample is only 4 series is because he failed so bad he could never beat a team worth beating and advance to a later round to play a tougher team. I'm not giving him credit because he was so bad we don't have a larger sample of him being bad.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:45 pm**

1. 83 Moses Malone - The short version is that Moses was the best player in the league, on an historically great team, with great +/- estimates, and a gamebreaking ability on the offensive boards (averaged 6.5 offensive rebounds a game from 79 to 83). The gap between him and Curry who has that same argument (replace rebounding with 3 point shooting) is that outside of that one amazing ability Moses was still well above average at everything else. His jumper, defense (in 83 at least), and post game was already solid. His one weakness was his weak passing ability but it didn't hinder his chance to lead great or mediocre teams so I don't know how much it concerns me.

2. 17 Russell Westbrook - I'm on record since 2017 saying next to 09 LeBron this is the best season I've seen since I've watched basketball religiously. The short version here is that he averaged a 30 point triple double, made 200 three pointers, was the most clutch player ever (sidebar but this is one of my favorite posts in RealGM history, and it perfectly encapsulates exactly how clutch he was), and averaged 37/12/11 in the playoffs while destroying Houston, only losing because his team was the worst team I've ever seen in the playoffs without him on the floor. Unlike many here he had to also overcome horrible fitting teammates (they had the worst 3 point percentage in the league outside of him) and the worst coach in the league.

3. 82 Moses Malone - Spoilered my original vote. New vote is 82 Moses. At first I was thinking his defense was too bad to place this highly especially with the loss in the 1st round but on second thought it's his best offensive season and the season where he did the most lifting for his team. I still think it pales compared to the carry job Wade did in 09 and Westbrook did in 17 but it's pretty damn good.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:04 pm**

E-Balla wrote:1. 83 Moses Malone - The short version is that Moses was the best player in the league, on an historically great team, with great +/- estimates, and a gamebreaking ability on the offensive boards (averaged 6.5 offensive rebounds a game from 79 to 83). The gap between him and Curry who has that same argument (replace rebounding with 3 point shooting) is that outside of that one amazing ability Moses was still well above average at everything else. His jumper, defense (in 83 at least), and post game was already solid. His one weakness was his weak passing ability but it didn't hinder his chance to lead great or mediocre teams so I don't know how much it concerns me.

2. 17 Russell Westbrook - I'm on record since 2017 saying next to 09 LeBron this is the best season I've seen since I've watched basketball religiously. The short version here is that he averaged a 30 point triple double, made 200 three pointers, was the most clutch player ever (sidebar but this is one of my favorite posts in RealGM history, and it perfectly encapsulates exactly how clutch he was), and averaged 37/12/11 in the playoffs while destroying Houston, only losing because his team was the worst team I've ever seen in the playoffs without him on the floor. Unlike many here he had to also overcome horrible fitting teammates (they had the worst 3 point percentage in the league outside of him) and the worst coach in the league.

3. 82 Moses Malone - Spoilered my original vote. New vote is 82 Moses. At first I was thinking his defense was too bad to place this highly especially with the loss in the 1st round but on second thought it's his best offensive season and the season where he did the most lifting for his team. I still think it pales compared to the carry job Wade did in 09 and Westbrook did in 17 but it's pretty damn good.

I feel bad for you because i feel like it will still be quite a while before either of those guys make it. Then again with the weak-ass participation lately, maybe not :lol:

.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:09 pm**

91 Robinson, 95 Robinson, 96 Robinson

A capable first or second offensive option who also anchored great defenses while posting atg defensive metrics. AuPM gives robinson two +6 postseasons, Corp's +/- evaluation gives him two +6 seasons, and that's a tier above anyone else who hasn't been voted in and even higher than guys who already have been voted in. I can be persuaded if you can show me his defense wasn't effective against good postseasons offenses. I don't really care much about meh offensive box stats because his defense was predominantly based on defensive side of the game which no one I've seen receive consideration is much removed from being a non factor on. Giannis and Draymond are possible exceptions but their impact #"s don't seem to be on par and it's quite questionable if you'd even want draymond as a second option offensively. Giannis is better offensively but his defensive metrics don't match and the fact his teamates were less effecient on the court and the bucks postseason offensive rating went down with him look like major red flags to me.

Lol @ "I'd rather have melo" though.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:26 pm**

freethedevil wrote:91 Robinson, 95 Robinson, 96 Robinson

A capable first or second offensive option who also anchored great defenses while posting atg defensive metrics. AuPM gives robinson two +6 postseasons, Corp's +/- evaluation gives him two +6 seasons, and that's a tier above anyone else who hasn't been voted in and even higher than guys who already have been voted in. I can be persuaded if you can show me his defense wasn't effective against good postseasons offenses.

From that post I had about his 5 tough series from 93 to 98 that I put in the last thread:

Now defensively there's another issue: in series where he disappointed offensively (is the 5 above) more often than not his team also underperformed defensively. In 93 they held Portland better than expected (-2.5) but Clyde missed game 1 (Portland's worst offensive performance of the series with a 95.0 ORTG). Take out that game and San Antonio performed worse than expected defensively. San Antonio also performed well against Denver (-4.2) but they were led by rookie Jalen Rose offensively by the time the playoffs came.

In 95 Houston performed better than expected (+3.0) mainly because of Hakeem's play and Utah killed them in 94 and 96 with the PNR (+4.0 in 94 and +5.7 in 96). TBH I'm not sure if I trust his defense to stand when he's taken out of the game offensively. I want to say its a small sample but 23 games is a pretty large postseason sample for Robinson to look so unspectacular in during his "peak" years.

Maybe it's convincing, maybe not, but in the series where he was taken out of the games offensively his team defenses seemed to play worse. Now Hakeem beating on him was obvious, Portland wasn't much better than their season average, and Utah is the same team twice so maybe they just tore him up, but the Spurs postseason defense really wasn't impressive until Duncan came along and Robinson became a proper 2nd option not relied on to run the offense.

I don't really care much about meh offensive box stats because his defense was predominantly based on defensive side of the game which no one I've seen receive consideration is much removed from being a non factor on. Giannis and Draymond are possible exceptions but their impact #"s don't seem to be on par and it's quite questionable if you'd even want draymond as a second option offensively. Giannis is better offensively but his defensive metrics don't match and the fact his teamates were less effecient on the court and the bucks postseason offensive rating went down with him look like major red flags to me.

Alonzo Mourning? I'd say he's far from being a non factor and I've been talking about him since like thread 14 so he's definitely being discussed. It's strange how he's blown by historically as if he wasn't a top 3-4 player in basketball for multiple seasons before his injury.

Lol @ "I'd rather have melo" though.

It was obvious I meant as a first option on offense. I've already said Robinson is the king of second options, but not a first option at all.

Posted: **Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:07 pm**

E-Balla wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Maybe it's convincing, maybe not, but in the series where he was taken out of the games offensively his team defenses seemed to play worse. Now Hakeem beating on him was obvious, Portland wasn't much better than their season average, and Utah is the same team twice so maybe they just tore him up, but the Spurs postseason defense really wasn't impressive until Duncan came along and Robinson became a proper 2nd option not relied on to run the offense.

That's pretty convincing. I might have to reconsider my vote if his defenses consistently faltered vs strong offenses. I'd like to see if la bird has series where the opposite happened. How did the spurs defense in those series do with him off vs with him on?

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:46 am**

Mavericksfan wrote:1)1995 David Robinson-
He has all the boxes checked except one. Won MVP, has insane boxscore production and impact metrics. Was an anchor on both ends and led a top 5 offense and defense. 5.90 SRS indicates they were a legit contender but he was famously cooked by Hakeem. Hakeem is also in the top 10 and seeing Garnett so much higher despite playoff scoring woes makes me believe D-Rob is being underrated.

2)2011 Dirk-
Misses 9 games and has a pedestrian regular season in terms of boxscore production. Has great impact stats and led the Mavs to a dominant win % when he played. Absolutely insane playoff production leading the Mavs against two championship caliber teams(almost 6 SRS Lakers, almost 7 SRS Heat). Bonus points for portability as he can fit any offense.

3)Kobe Bryant 2008-
A top player according to impact, boxscore metrics and the his team results speak for themselves. Beat two championship caliber teams in the Spurs and Jazz while having an overall solid playoffs.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:05 am**

It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

Also Moses has pretty good performances against direct matchup. His 19/17 performance against Big E and McGinnis at age 21 in 1977 playoffs is nearly better than two third of DRob’s performances prior to TD. I don’t see Robinson dominating Kareem and Lanier, especially the way Moses did. Or outgunning Gervin.

I’m all for advanced statistical evaluation of players (for example huge impact metrics Robinson has is a pro) but there’s more to it.

Gun to my head, there are at least 20/25 players I’d pick over Robinson to lead my team in a playoffs / playoff series.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:52 am**

Odinn21 wrote:It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

Also Moses has pretty good performances against direct matchup. His 19/17 performance against Big E and McGinnis at age 21 in 1977 playoffs is nearly better than two third of DRob’s performances prior to TD. I don’t see Robinson dominating Kareem and Lanier, especially the way Moses did. Or outgunning Gervin.

I’m all for advanced statistical evaluation of players (for example huge impact metrics Robinson has is a pro) but there’s more to it.

Gun to my head, there are at least 20/25 players I’d pick over Robinson to lead my team in a playoffs / playoff series.

I think it comes down to how much you value regular season.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:17 am**

Mavericksfan wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

Also Moses has pretty good performances against direct matchup. His 19/17 performance against Big E and McGinnis at age 21 in 1977 playoffs is nearly better than two third of DRob’s performances prior to TD. I don’t see Robinson dominating Kareem and Lanier, especially the way Moses did. Or outgunning Gervin.

I’m all for advanced statistical evaluation of players (for example huge impact metrics Robinson has is a pro) but there’s more to it.

Gun to my head, there are at least 20/25 players I’d pick over Robinson to lead my team in a playoffs / playoff series.

I think it comes down to how much you value regular season.

I value regular season more than most us here I think. But picking David Robinson makes it all about regular season because his performance as the 1st option in playoffs is certainly a negative for him. I used to think a bit more positively about that but recent discussions made it crystal clear for me.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:39 pm**

Odinn21 wrote:I value regular season more than most us here I think. But picking David Robinson makes it all about regular season because his performance as the 1st option in playoffs is certainly a negative for him. I used to think a bit more positively about that but recent discussions made it crystal clear for me.

How is his ‘95 playoffs a negative? He struggled againsg Hakeem but was still dominant overall defensively. People forget that the Rockets had a damn near 120 Orating with Drexler on the court. Their reg season O-rating didnt reflect how much better they were once he was added.

Plus 04 KG had similar issues in the playoffs. It seems like a double standard because D-rob was cooked by Hakeem that year.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:17 pm**

Mavericksfan wrote:
How is his ‘95 playoffs a negative? He struggled againsg Hakeem but was still dominant overall defensively. People forget that the Rockets had a damn near 120 Orating with Drexler on the court. Their reg season O-rating didnt reflect how much better they were once he was added.

This is not even close to being remotely true. They had a 112.4 ORTG after trading for Clyde, good enough for 9th in the league. They went 17-18 IIRC with Clyde, the team got worse.

And how is someone getting burnt for 35 a night dominant defensively? Was Robinson guarding their shooters and closing out on them so that they had their worst shooting series of the postseason? Was Robinson checking Clyde/Cassell and holding them to about 20% shooting from deep?

Plus 04 KG had similar issues in the playoffs. It seems like a double standard because D-rob was cooked by Hakeem that year.

He doesn't. In 04 specifically he wasn't any more efficient than Robinson (once you adjust for the quality of defense) but his volume was higher and unlike Robinson he's shown in other situations that he can play well on ocassion. Not consistent, borderline, but clearly a first option. Robinson doesn't have a series we can point to where he looked like a serviceable first option vs a good defense.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 4:02 pm**

Odinn21 wrote:It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

I voted Ewing 3rd last thread.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:26 pm**

E-Balla wrote:
Mavericksfan wrote:
How is his ‘95 playoffs a negative? He struggled againsg Hakeem but was still dominant overall defensively. People forget that the Rockets had a damn near 120 Orating with Drexler on the court. Their reg season O-rating didnt reflect how much better they were once he was added.

This is not even close to being remotely true. They had a 112.4 ORTG after trading for Clyde, good enough for 9th in the league. They went 17-18 IIRC with Clyde, the team got worse.

And how is someone getting burnt for 35 a night dominant defensively? Was Robinson guarding their shooters and closing out on them so that they had their worst shooting series of the postseason? Was Robinson checking Clyde/Cassell and holding them to about 20% shooting from deep?

Plus 04 KG had similar issues in the playoffs. It seems like a double standard because D-rob was cooked by Hakeem that year.

He doesn't. In 04 specifically he wasn't any more efficient than Robinson (once you adjust for the quality of defense) but his volume was higher and unlike Robinson he's shown in other situations that he can play well on ocassion. Not consistent, borderline, but clearly a first option. Robinson doesn't have a series we can point to where he looked like a serviceable first option vs a good defense.

Wait what? In 1995 their Orating was 109.7 for the entire year(curious what it was before the trade).If they had 112.4 for the entire season that wouldve put them 5th.

Drexler’s Orating was litererally 119 during the regular season and 120 during the playoffs. No idea where you’re getting the idea that he made them worse offensively.

And regarding D-Rob’s defense. I’m talking about his entire playoffs. Also the Spurs still held the Rockets as a team below their usual Orating with Drexler.

As far as KG goes we are talking about specific years. KG’s playoff performance in 04 isnt anything special. (Relative to other greats or D-Rob in 95)

Also not sure where you’re getting the more volume thing from. D-Rob has him beat in per 36, per 100 possession and per game scoring. KG has him beat soundly in playmaking but not scoring. The biggest knock against 95 D-Rob is that he was roasted by a guy we have down as clearly better than him and one of the best playoff performers ever.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:38 pm**

Odinn21 wrote:It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

Malone? Ewing? Believe it or not, they had the same kinds of issues in the playoffs as Robinson. Scoring-wise, Malone's volume declined a little bit less in the playoffs than Robinson's, but his efficiency fell further. And he was never the same level of impact defender as Robinson - good yes but doesn't compare. Meanwhile, Ewing's volume and efficiency both take similar dives in the playoffs to Robinson's. Ewing's volume looks a lot better if you cut out some years at the end of his All-Star run, although his efficiency gets worse.

Barkley was good in the playoffs, but he was never a consistently good defender, so that's why I'm looking at him in the next tier of players. Here are some scoring stats for the three big guys (I'm looking at pre-injury prime years for everybody, so 90-96 for the Admiral, 88-97 for Ewing, and 88-98 for Malone):

All stats per 100 possessions
David Robinson, 90-96:
RS: 33.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 31.6p / 55.7% TS
Diff: -2.3p / -3.5% TS

Karl Malone, 88-98:
RS: 36.6p / 59.1% TS
PS: 35.2p / 53.4% TS
Diff: - 1.4p / -5.7% TS

Patrick Ewing, 88-97:
RS: 33.0p / 56.3% TS
PS: 30.6p / 52.8% TS
Diff: -2.4p / -3.5% TS

If you want, we can limit this to everyone's age 24-30 seasons to make it extra fair:

David Robinson, 90-96:
RS: 33.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 31.6p / 55.7% TS
Diff: -2.3p / -3.5% TS

Karl Malone, 88-94:
RS: 35.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 34.2p / 55.3% TS
Diff: - 1.7p / -3.9% TS

Patrick Ewing, 87-93:
RS: 32.6p / 57.4% TS
PS: 31.7p / 53.6% TS
DIFF: -0.9p / -3.8% TS

This all looks very similar to me. All three of these guys were rather inefficient self-creators and their production declined in the playoffs. Robinson was the best defender out of the three. So I go with him.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:51 pm**

1. 1994 David Robinson - Robinson is a fascinating case. As a player I consider him very similar to Kevin Garnett - big man who can play like a guard, not an overwhelming individual scorer, possibly underrated defender even though his greatness on that end is acknowledged. Garnett gets his edge over Robinson because he's a much better passer and doesn't decline as much in the playoffs. But I don't think the gap is as huge as the conversation here might imply, with Garnett's name in the running since near the beginning and Robinson only recently becoming a contender. He's a truly all-time defensive force imo, and that's mostly what I'm voting for him based on.

As far as the year, it's clearly either '94 or '95 imo, and I just think every indication gives '94 the edge except for awards and playoff performance. D-Rob was always miscast as a first offensive option; he didn't have great skills to create for himself compared to most 25+ per game scorers, and it showed in the playoffs. So his stats are a little underwhelming in both postseasons. Given that, I'll take the '94 RS.

2. 1995 David Robinson - Same reasoning, second-best year.

3. 1949 George Mikan - It's time. Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think we can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year. Unless we're not counting BAA years, in which case this vote is 1950 for all the same reasons.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:30 pm**

cecilthesheep wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:It’s insane to think that David Robinson is mentioned this many times and yet there are no mentions of Barkley, Malone and Ewing. Far more capable players in the postseason from Robinson’s time...

Malone? Ewing? Believe it or not, they had the same kinds of issues in the playoffs as Robinson. Scoring-wise, Malone's volume declined a little bit less in the playoffs than Robinson's, but his efficiency fell further. And he was never the same level of impact defender as Robinson - good yes but doesn't compare. Meanwhile, Ewing's volume and efficiency both take similar dives in the playoffs to Robinson's. Ewing's volume looks a lot better if you cut out some years at the end of his All-Star run, although his efficiency gets worse.

Barkley was good in the playoffs, but he was never a consistently good defender, so that's why I'm looking at him in the next tier of players. Here are some scoring stats for the three big guys (I'm looking at pre-injury prime years for everybody, so 90-96 for the Admiral, 88-97 for Ewing, and 88-98 for Malone):

All stats per 100 possessions
David Robinson, 90-96:
RS: 33.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 31.6p / 55.7% TS
Diff: -2.3p / -3.5% TS

Karl Malone, 88-98:
RS: 36.6p / 59.1% TS
PS: 35.2p / 53.4% TS
Diff: - 1.4p / -5.7% TS

Patrick Ewing, 88-97:
RS: 33.0p / 56.3% TS
PS: 30.6p / 52.8% TS
Diff: -2.4p / -3.5% TS

If you want, we can limit this to everyone's age 24-30 seasons to make it extra fair:

David Robinson, 90-96:
RS: 33.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 31.6p / 55.7% TS
Diff: -2.3p / -3.5% TS

Karl Malone, 88-94:
RS: 35.9p / 59.2% TS
PS: 34.2p / 55.3% TS
Diff: - 1.7p / -3.9% TS

Patrick Ewing, 87-93:
RS: 32.6p / 57.4% TS
PS: 31.7p / 53.6% TS
DIFF: -0.9p / -3.8% TS

This all looks very similar to me. All three of these guys were rather inefficient self-creators and their production declined in the playoffs. Robinson was the best defender out of the three. So I go with him.

It's not that simple though, because Malone faced far better competition (overall and defensively) than Robinson. It's not even comparable and Malone was still clearly better passer than Admiral (and especially Ewing).

I don't think there is much debate on who is better offensively, though I'd take Admiral overall due to his defense.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:47 pm**

70sFan wrote:It's not that simple though, because Malone faced far better competition (overall and defensively) than Robinson. It's not even comparable and Malone was still clearly better passer than Admiral (and especially Ewing).

I don't think there is much debate on who is better offensively, though I'd take Admiral overall due to his defense.

Better offensively, sure. But I was responding to the claim that Malone and Ewing were "far more capable" overall. I'm just saying the offensive gap is small enough here that the defensive difference makes it completely reasonable to take Robinson.

I'd like more detail on the competition before I can completely agree. I think this is less about competition and more about Robinson's lack of elite post moves, Malone's low release point in the paint, Ewing's vulnerability to doubling, etc. I do agree that Malone was probably the best of the three on offense because of his great passing.

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Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Re: #18 - GOAT peaks project (2019)