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henshao wrote:You do have to consider though that a lot of Malone's value comes from longevity and this is Peak Only

Malone also beat Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan in the same playoffs. Also beat Robinson several times without HCA. Dwight basically only beat Lebron once and no one else of significance.

Yeah sorry, in no universe was Malone not the clear best offensive player on those Jazz teams, and by every offensive volume and efficiency metric, an absolute elite offensive player. Stockton contrarianism be damned. Or is it just coincidence that Utah's best offenses ('96-99) and title contending coincided with Stockton's assist rate and usage actually going down, being less ball-dominant, and running more offense through Malone as a secondary play-maker? A change that I'm pretty sure Jerry Sloan even admitted later on.

I think both of these guys are being undervalued by many in this thread.

Malone was indeed an all time great offensive player and that should not be dismissed. But I also think people forget what a dominant defensive force peak Howard was.

Look at the personnel on those Orlando teams. Turkaglu was a bad defender, Rashard Lewis was a real bad defender. Jameer Nelson was 5-11 and had one of the shortest wingspans of any NBA guard in the past 30 years. Redick was another alligator armed wing, only he was less savvy defensively back then. The only above average defensive teammates Howard had were Mickael Pietrus and Courtney Lee, yet that team was the best defense in the league. It was all due to Howard. The guy was a monster protecting the rim and on the glass. Howard was also a great offensive rebounder, but his greatest contribution on offense was the fact that he could handle all of the rebounding for his team so they could afford to invent the position of "stretch four" by and play Rashard Lewis there. That enabled them to be the 11th best offense in the league despite having no decent shot creators on the roster.

During Howard's peak, that mediocre roster won 59 games a season. Two years later, Howard missed 34 games and the same basic team won just 37 games. The year after that, Howard departed Orlando and the team won just 20 games.

Sublime187 wrote:

henshao wrote:Karl Malone finished 2nd place in total points (behind only MJ) eight times

Jerry Stackhouse and Allen Iverson also won the season scoring titles. Doesn't make them good offensive players. I am not saying Malone is in their tier but he isn't the most reliable first option especially for the playoffs.

Look at the Utah rosters throughout Malone's career, they were awful besides Stockton and Hornacek or Jeff Malone. Karl Malone was almost their entire offense and replace him with almost any other player alltime and that team doesn't win as much.

migya wrote:

Sublime187 wrote:

henshao wrote:Karl Malone finished 2nd place in total points (behind only MJ) eight times

Jerry Stackhouse and Allen Iverson also won the season scoring titles. Doesn't make them good offensive players. I am not saying Malone is in their tier but he isn't the most reliable first option especially for the playoffs.

Look at the Utah rosters throughout Malone's career, they were awful besides Stockton and Hornacek or Jeff Malone. Karl Malone was almost their entire offense and replace him with almost any other player alltime and that team doesn't win as much.

And Dwight's Orlando team rosters were star-studded? Stockton would be instantly the 2nd best player on any of those teams. In 2009 he took the Magic all the way to the finals without his all-star point guard (and 2nd best player) playing at all.

theonlyclutch wrote:

migya wrote:

Sublime187 wrote:
Jerry Stackhouse and Allen Iverson also won the season scoring titles. Doesn't make them good offensive players. I am not saying Malone is in their tier but he isn't the most reliable first option especially for the playoffs.

Look at the Utah rosters throughout Malone's career, they were awful besides Stockton and Hornacek or Jeff Malone. Karl Malone was almost their entire offense and replace him with almost any other player alltime and that team doesn't win as much.

And Dwight's Orlando team rosters were star-studded? Stockton would be instantly the 2nd best player on any of those teams. In 2009 he took the Magic all the way to the finals without his all-star point guard (and 2nd best player) playing at all.

True that Magic team was not that talentedbut they had a better bench and shooters than Malone's teams did. Turkoglu was like a PG with his playmaking and the three point shooting in that team was very good, exactly what was needed with Dwight. They faced the even more untalented 76ers, aging Celtics without KG and Cavs who had less talent than them.

Utah beat incredibly talented teams like Portland, Seattle, Phoenix, San Antonio and Houston throughout the 1990s.

I don't trust Howard as my focal point on offense as much as I trust Malone.

You can literally post up Karl in slow paced games and he'll produce a ton for your squad. If the game as a higher pace he'll be a nightmare at his size running up and down the court. Dwight is also a good offensive player, a force on the rebounds, tremendous PnR player... but I don't see the offense playing trough him as much as I do with Karl.

However I trust Howard to anchor a D at a super elite level if the other guys have good lateral movement. Much more than Malone, but Karl was still a good defender himself.

I'll give the nod to Malone overall. On my #1 option I'm trusting offense more than D. But it's close.

I really gave a it a ton of thought here. Nice comparison. Howard is just one of those players that is sometimes hard to rank, but he definitely peaked high.

Karl Malone is several tiers above Dwight.

Offensively Malone>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight
Rebounding Dwight>>>>>Malone
Defense Dwight>>Malone

KobesScarf wrote:Karl Malone is several tiers above Dwight.

Offensively Malone>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight
Rebounding Dwight>>>>>Malone
Defense Dwight>>Malone

There’s no way the offense is that much larger than the defensive gap.

Peak Dwight if 2011 averaged 27 ppg on 68 ts% in a first round exit.

Peak Malone if 1992 averaged 29 ppg on 62 ts% in the playoffs.

And you and others are underselling the defensive gap by a lot, Malone was nothing more than a good defender, not an anchor. Dwight was a legit 3 time DPOY player, he wasn’t quite KG/Duncan level but he wasn’t far off and he was certainly better than weak DPOY winners like Chandler or Noah.

No-more-rings wrote:

KobesScarf wrote:Karl Malone is several tiers above Dwight.

Offensively Malone>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight
Rebounding Dwight>>>>>Malone
Defense Dwight>>Malone

There’s no way the offense is that much larger than the defensive gap.

Peak Dwight if 2011 averaged 27 ppg on 68 ts% in a first round exit.

Peak Malone if 1992 averaged 29 ppg on 62 ts% in the playoffs.

And you and others are underselling the defensive gap by a lot, Malone was nothing more than a good defender, not an anchor. Dwight was a legit 3 time DPOY player, he wasn’t quite KG/Duncan level but he wasn’t far off and he was certainly better than weak DPOY winners like Chandler or Noah.

I probably agree with your conclusion, but the offensive gap is much bigger than the stats you quoted suggets.

First of all, Karl was excellent passer. Not just decent, but excellent - one of the best in the league at his position. He really impacted the game with passing and playmaking from the high post. Meanwhile Howard was probably the worst passing star I've ever watched.

Secondly, Malone was much more versatile. Howard's volume in 2011 is an outlier, usually he was more of a finisher than shot creator. That's why their efficiency is comparable, but their impact is not.

70sFan wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

KobesScarf wrote:Karl Malone is several tiers above Dwight.

Offensively Malone>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwight
Rebounding Dwight>>>>>Malone
Defense Dwight>>Malone

There’s no way the offense is that much larger than the defensive gap.

Peak Dwight if 2011 averaged 27 ppg on 68 ts% in a first round exit.

Peak Malone if 1992 averaged 29 ppg on 62 ts% in the playoffs.

And you and others are underselling the defensive gap by a lot, Malone was nothing more than a good defender, not an anchor. Dwight was a legit 3 time DPOY player, he wasn’t quite KG/Duncan level but he wasn’t far off and he was certainly better than weak DPOY winners like Chandler or Noah.

I probably agree with your conclusion, but the offensive gap is much bigger than the stats you quoted suggets.

First of all, Karl was excellent passer. Not just decent, but excellent - one of the best in the league at his position. He really impacted the game with passing and playmaking from the high post. Meanwhile Howard was probably the worst passing star I've ever watched.

Secondly, Malone was much more versatile. Howard's volume in 2011 is an outlier, usually he was more of a finisher than shot creator. That's why their efficiency is comparable, but their impact is not.

Malone’s peak passing and scoring didn’t coincide though, should be noted that his 1st 5 seasons he had more turnovers than assists, that’s not impactful passing. I’m not knowledgeable enough on him to know when he was at his defensive peak, but it’s important to just not assume all his best qualities happened at once because they likely did not.

Dwight’s offensive best was in 2011, and if his defense fell from say 09, it wasn’t by much.

I’m not saying I disagree overall, but still at some point we have to recognize how much his scoring efficiency dipped in the playoffs.

The way Dwight is being described you would think he was Tyson Chandler out there. He had a perfectly functional assortment of hooks, finger rolls, and raw power moves at his disposal with his back to the basket. He was the heir apparent to Shaq himself before falling off the face of the Earth.

Malone was a great natural PF, but Dwight was a great natural C. It's really easy for me to pick Dwight. Only natural PFs who deserve mention over peak Howard would be Garnett and Nowitzki.

The sad part is that peak Howard should have been pre-apex Howard. He had a ton more to give and should have been the next David Robinson or such.