The James Harden Thread (2019-20)

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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#341 » by CKRT » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:00 pm

From a process standpoint, I am honestly not sure Harden does need to add anything to his game. Like Heej mentioned anytime he had single coverage he got to the line and even though he shot horribly he still put up 22 with 2 made FGs.

While he could invest time into adding wrinkles to the Rockets offense through a mid range game or off ball movement is it worth it when the ISO or 4v3 is probably a higher PPP than whatever he adds to his game? I feel like the answer SHOULD be yes that variety is needed but I’m not sure Houston FO/Harden feel the same way.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#342 » by MyUniBroDavis » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 pm

CKRT wrote:From a process standpoint, I am honestly not sure Harden does need to add anything to his game. Like Heej mentioned anytime he had single coverage he got to the line and even though he shot horribly he still put up 22 with 2 made FGs.

While he could invest time into adding wrinkles to the Rockets offense through a mid range game or off ball movement is it worth it when the ISO or 4v3 is probably a higher PPP than whatever he adds to his game? I feel like the answer SHOULD be yes that variety is needed but I’m not sure Houston FO/Harden feel the same way.


I think its more so he needs to be more active without the ball.

Its fine most of the time but if the base strategy isnt working they dont have a plan B. If harded passes it out and his initial iso doesnt work he goes yeet
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#343 » by Krodis » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:37 pm

Danuel House can't be the most popular guy in the locker room right now.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#344 » by bledredwine » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:11 pm

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

You need a midrange or post game to be a consistent and reliable clutch scorer, regardless of era.

Harden has neither, nor does Giannis. My Harden predictions from four years ago and Giannis predictions from 2 years ago have been spot on. I'm sure plenty will find reasons to disagree, but this is the reason why. This is also why it's no coincidence that Durant and Kawhi are the most reliable scorers. It is the reason why Westbrook is aging terribly.

It's easy to look at big cumulative stats and claim someone is amazing, but it's another to see a level of consistency to maintain that, especially in important games. Harden and Giannis don't have that. Relying on merely free throws, drives and threes is going to be flukey in nearly every series. It is much easier to put a lid on than a competent midrange shooter with post moves, which Kawhi is doing brilliantly, especially short distance.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#345 » by 70sFan » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:10 pm

bledredwine wrote:I've said it once and I'll say it again.

You need a midrange or post game to be a consistent and reliable clutch scorer, regardless of era.

Harden has neither, nor does Giannis. My Harden predictions from four years ago and Giannis predictions from 2 years ago have been spot on. I'm sure plenty will find reasons to disagree, but this is the reason why. This is also why it's no coincidence that Durant and Kawhi are the most reliable scorers. It is the reason why Westbrook is aging terribly.

It's easy to look at big cumulative stats and claim someone is amazing, but it's another to see a level of consistency to maintain that, especially in important games. Harden and Giannis don't have that. Relying on merely free throws, drives and threes is going to be flukey in nearly every series. It is much easier to put a lid on than a competent midrange shooter with post moves, which Kawhi is doing brilliantly, especially short distance.

I mean, Harden has been excellent in the bubble. It's not his fault that Rockets can't rebound because they decided to play without bigs or that Westbrook is so bad that he can be guarded like Deandre Jordan. I agree with you that versatility is extremely important, but Harden hasn't got exposed in 2020 playoffs. He's unstoppable and all Lakers can do to reduce his production is doubling him immediatly.

I'd never pick Harden over someone like Jordan offensively but he's legit all-timer on that end and plays like the one in postseason. One weaker shooting game won't changr the fact that Harden has been killing Lakers defense.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#346 » by Bidofo » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:43 pm

Heej wrote:Not gonna lie he seemingly disappeared for stretches but that dude is still unguardable af man. Any time they had single coverage on him he'd shift his defender and get to the rim and draw a foul. Even on guys like AD and Danny Green lol. 20 FTs is something he earned. I just think Houston is terrible at taking advantage of 4 on 3s and Harden isn't very good at orchestrating it and stringing out the double so his teammates are in the right place

It’s actually sad how inept his teammates are at handling a double team. I’ve seen multiple times now a Lakers double forcing a deflection and Harden then complaining/instructing his closest teammate about where to be, not to mention their glaring inability to attack a 4v3. I don’t really like him or anything, but it’s sad watching an ATG player waste his prime on this gimmicky roster with mediocre talent.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#347 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:03 pm

bledredwine wrote:I've said it once and I'll say it again.

You need a midrange or post game to be a consistent and reliable clutch scorer, regardless of era.

Harden has neither, nor does Giannis. My Harden predictions from four years ago and Giannis predictions from 2 years ago have been spot on. I'm sure plenty will find reasons to disagree, but this is the reason why. This is also why it's no coincidence that Durant and Kawhi are the most reliable scorers. It is the reason why Westbrook is aging terribly.

It's easy to look at big cumulative stats and claim someone is amazing, but it's another to see a level of consistency to maintain that, especially in important games. Harden and Giannis don't have that. Relying on merely free throws, drives and threes is going to be flukey in nearly every series. It is much easier to put a lid on than a competent midrange shooter with post moves, which Kawhi is doing brilliantly, especially short distance.


Kevin Durant's reliability does drop off in the post season...look at his OKC stats. You can't be serious thinking his GSW stats is a good representation of that - if Giannis and Harden were literally guarded just by one player they would have no problems scoring.

Durant doesn't have a post game and his mid range game is really basic, and not well tested against actual team defense. He just shot over guys because defenders have to be left on an island with Durant. In fact, Durant is such an outlier that in his first year he was scoring on cuts and open layups - which Harden/Giannis and pretty much every other superstar would never get at such a high clip because defenses would be too aware of where they are.

James Harden is still having a better scoring post season than any what Durant would have in OKC. Not to mention Harden has to create for himself much more than Kevin Durant did.

In fact the only time Durant had a mega efficient scoring post season is when he had James Harden and Westbrook on his team in 2012. I don't think it's a big coincidence or has to do with him having a good mid range game or post game - his scoring translates the best when he's on ridiculously top heavy teams.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#348 » by eminence » Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:10 pm

Anybody have any data on this? Harden has always struck me as a slow catch and shoot guy. Maybe not necessarily on his actual shots, but he seems to have a lot of catches where he should put up a shot, but winds up dribbling into something else due to a slow release/decision making process. I think a little off ball movement and upping the speed there could go a long way.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#349 » by G35 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:05 pm

bledredwine wrote:I've said it once and I'll say it again.

You need a midrange or post game to be a consistent and reliable clutch scorer, regardless of era.

Harden has neither, nor does Giannis. My Harden predictions from four years ago and Giannis predictions from 2 years ago have been spot on. I'm sure plenty will find reasons to disagree, but this is the reason why. This is also why it's no coincidence that Durant and Kawhi are the most reliable scorers. It is the reason why Westbrook is aging terribly.

It's easy to look at big cumulative stats and claim someone is amazing, but it's another to see a level of consistency to maintain that, especially in important games. Harden and Giannis don't have that. Relying on merely free throws, drives and threes is going to be flukey in nearly every series. It is much easier to put a lid on than a competent midrange shooter with post moves, which Kawhi is doing brilliantly, especially short distance.



+1

I have been saying the same thing that Harden has no variety to his game. Spamming the same move is a recipe to get downloaded by the defense.

It seems as long as you put up aggregate numbers and your efficiency looks good that is all that matters...this "Not my fault" attitude is why players do not adjust their game. They see the stats, they see fans excusing their play, and they see no reason to change their approach at all.......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#350 » by 70sFan » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:28 pm

G35 wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I've said it once and I'll say it again.

You need a midrange or post game to be a consistent and reliable clutch scorer, regardless of era.

Harden has neither, nor does Giannis. My Harden predictions from four years ago and Giannis predictions from 2 years ago have been spot on. I'm sure plenty will find reasons to disagree, but this is the reason why. This is also why it's no coincidence that Durant and Kawhi are the most reliable scorers. It is the reason why Westbrook is aging terribly.

It's easy to look at big cumulative stats and claim someone is amazing, but it's another to see a level of consistency to maintain that, especially in important games. Harden and Giannis don't have that. Relying on merely free throws, drives and threes is going to be flukey in nearly every series. It is much easier to put a lid on than a competent midrange shooter with post moves, which Kawhi is doing brilliantly, especially short distance.



+1

I have been saying the same thing that Harden has no variety to his game. Spamming the same move is a recipe to get downloaded by the defense.

It seems as long as you put up aggregate numbers and your efficiency looks good that is all that matters...this "Not my fault" attitude is why players do not adjust their game. They see the stats, they see fans excusing their play, and they see no reason to change their approach at all.......

I really think that we watch different Houston games...
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#351 » by Statlanta » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:12 pm

It's a defensive era and the contenders(Denver, Houston, LAC, LAL) are dominant defense teams.

I wouldn't hold this series against him especially since he's playing the best rim protection team in NBA history and has systematically forced two of the best shot blockers off the floor.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#352 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:03 am

Statlanta wrote:It's a defensive era and the contenders(Denver, Houston, LAC, LAL) are dominant defense teams.

I wouldn't hold this series against him especially since he's playing the best rim protection team in NBA history and has systematically forced two of the best shot blockers off the floor.


Are there any concrete stats that points to this being true?
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#353 » by Dupp » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:55 pm

Does someone know how the Capela trade had effected hardens output? Like has the extra space led to more shots at the rim and free throws? Or has the lack of a lob threat made it a little harder or are things basically the same?

Did Houston’s offense overall get much of a bump? What about their d?
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#354 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:18 pm

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
Statlanta wrote:It's a defensive era and the contenders(Denver, Houston, LAC, LAL) are dominant defense teams.

I wouldn't hold this series against him especially since he's playing the best rim protection team in NBA history and has systematically forced two of the best shot blockers off the floor.


Are there any concrete stats that points to this being true?


Its not their bottom 10 in fg% difference in the paint, at the rim, and top 10 in allowing the most attempts from those spots

Theyre not a bad defensive team and are pretty well built to stop this lakers team on offense in some ways, in that theyre very good at packing the paint and not giving up open threes other than 5 out systems.

He had 1 bad game 1 great game 1 zomg wtf game and 1 decent game (i admit i didnt see half of last game because of exams)

This houstan team did a really good job packkng the paint game 1 and i feel he reeled it in in game 4 as well, but even with his scoring not being insane (and even thats mostly from three) he had 15 rebounds and alot of great passes in those 9 assists
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#355 » by MyUniBroDavis » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:27 pm

Dupp wrote:Does someone know how the Capela trade had effected hardens output? Like has the extra space led to more shots at the rim and free throws? Or has the lack of a lob threat made it a little harder or are things basically the same?

Did Houston’s offense overall get much of a bump? What about their d?


61.6 TS pre capela 64.9 TS post capela

He has two really bad games with skews his ts lower post capela, its in the 67-68 range if you take those out

Westbrook went from 52.6 to 56.2, altho that obv has other factors
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#356 » by JordansBulls » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:29 pm

Why not switch it up and use Tyson Chandler and put him on Anthony Davis. As Davis is wearing out PJ Tucker
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#357 » by Homer38 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:30 pm

Problem with Harden is not that his stats are awful (his TS% will always be good because of his free throws) but it's when the game is close in the fourth quarter in a playoffs game or when the game this is a must win game (as the last game or game 7 against OKC) he is often bad and this is now a expectation, which is sad

Not winning a ring is not my biggest problem with him, it's how he performs in big moment that is the problem.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#358 » by Dupp » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:42 pm

Homer38 wrote:Problem with Harden is not that his stats are awful (his TS% will always be good because of his free throws) but it's when the game is close in the fourth quarter in a playoffs game or when the game this is a must win game (as the last game or game 7 against OKC) he is often bad and this is now a expectation, which is sad

Not winning a ring is not my biggest problem with him, it's how he performs in big moment that is the problem.



I think everyone is well aware of this now. A lot of people claim it’s his “gimmick” offense but his skill set isn’t the issue it’s entirely mental. There’s been some examples already this post season against okc where he just didn’t appear to want the ball when they where di or die situations.
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#359 » by Dupp » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:43 pm

JordansBulls wrote:Why not switch it up and use Tyson Chandler and put him on Anthony Davis. As Davis is wearing out PJ Tucker



There will be no plan b!!
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Re: The James Harden Thread (2019-20) 

Post#360 » by thekdog34 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:17 am

Harden slows the pace down which is good for his stats but isn't good for winning.

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