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#21 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

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#21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:39 pm

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.
If you're repeating votes from previous rounds, copy and paste the reasoning because "see previous thread for explanation" will not be counted as a valid vote.

Current deadline: 12pm noon September 6 Eastern Time
The deadline will be extended by 24 hours up to twice if there is less than 12 votes or there is a tie for first


The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#2 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:51 pm

E-Balla wrote:1. 83 Moses Malone - The short version is that Moses was the best player in the league, on an historically great team, with great +/- estimates, and a gamebreaking ability on the offensive boards (averaged 6.5 offensive rebounds a game from 79 to 83). The gap between him and Curry who has that same argument (replace rebounding with 3 point shooting) is that outside of that one amazing ability Moses was still well above average at everything else. His jumper, defense (in 83 at least), and post game was already solid. His one weakness was his weak passing ability but it didn't hinder his chance to lead great or mediocre teams so I don't know how much it concerns me.

2. 17 Russell Westbrook - I'm on record since 2017 saying next to 09 LeBron this is the best season I've seen since I've watched basketball religiously. The short version here is that he averaged a 30 point triple double, made 200 three pointers, was the most clutch player ever (sidebar but this is one of my favorite posts in RealGM history, and it perfectly encapsulates exactly how clutch he was), and averaged 37/12/11 in the playoffs while destroying Houston, only losing because his team was the worst team I've ever seen in the playoffs without him on the floor. Unlike many here he had to also overcome horrible fitting teammates (they had the worst 3 point percentage in the league outside of him) and the worst coach in the league.

3. 82 Moses Malone - Spoilered my original vote. New vote is 82 Moses. At first I was thinking his defense was too bad to place this highly especially with the loss in the 1st round but on second thought it's his best offensive season and the season where he did the most lifting for his team. I still think it pales compared to the carry job Wade did in 09 and Westbrook did in 17 but it's pretty damn good.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#3 » by Odinn21 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:53 pm

1. 1983 Moses Malone
Well, it’s too hard to pick a single season for Moses from 1980-81 to 1982-83. Three great choices... But I’m gonna go with the safest choice. Dominant on every level. According to my own calculations (based on box score numbers though), Moses was on par with many goat level legends such as MJ, Bird, Magic, LeBron regarding performance on a loaded team. Playing on a loaded team, and benefiting from it, is not a con for Moses because he performed as well as anybody.

2. 1993 Charles Barkley
Natural scorer and rebounder and it wasn’t like he didn’t pay attention on defense in this particular season. That WCF performance was something to behold. The Sonics were 5th in ppg allowed and 2nd drtg (also, despite the W numbers, they led the league in SRS) and that 44/24 game 7 performance is one of the best ever game 7 performances. Also, despite losing in 6, the Suns didn’t get outscored by the Bulls in the NBA Finals. That was the level of Chuck elevating the team. I’m particularly big on this because there are team performances winning the series despite not outscoring the opponent but those series are usually decided in the last game, either game 5 or game 7. Not in this case.

I’m going to make an edit for 3rd spot. It’s between Ewing, McGrady, Durant, Paul and Malone but I haven’t conclude my process yet.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#4 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 3:57 pm

Odinn21 wrote:1. 1983 Moses Malone
Well, it’s too hard to pick a single season for Moses from 1980-81 to 1982-83. Three great choices... But I’m gonna go with the safest choice. Dominant on every level. According to my own calculations (based on box score numbers though), Moses was on par with many goat level legends such as MJ, Bird, Magic, LeBron regarding performance on a loaded team. Playing on a loaded team, and benefiting from it, is not a con for Moses because he performed as well as anybody.

2. 1993 Charles Barkley
Natural scorer and rebounder and it wasn’t like he didn’t pay attention on defense in this particular season. That WCF performance was something to behold. The Sonics were 5th in ppg allowed and 2nd drtg (also, despite the W numbers, they led the league in SRS) and that 44/24 game 7 performance is one of the best ever game 7 performances. Also, despite losing in 6, the Suns didn’t get outscored by the Bulls in the NBA Finals. That was the level of Chuck elevating the team. I’m particularly big on this because there are team performances winning the series despite not outscoring the opponent but those series are usually decided in the last game, either game 5 or game 7. Not in this case.

I’m going to make an edit for 3rd spot. It’s between Ewing, McGrady, Durant, Paul and Malone but I haven’t conclude my process yet.

Why do you include Durant with Ewing, McGrady, and especially Malone?

What's his argument over Kawhi Leonard at his own position in his own era?
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#5 » by Odinn21 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:17 pm

E-Balla wrote:Why do you include Durant with Ewing, McGrady, and especially Malone?

What's his argument over Kawhi Leonard at his own position in his own era?

Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

As for comparing Durant to the other names on that shortlist? Like said it’s a working progress.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#6 » by trex_8063 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:23 pm

1st ballot - '14 Kevin Durant - League-leading 32 ppg on ridiculous +9.4% rTS shooting efficiency, while also emerging as a pretty good playmaker this year. Totally respectable turnover economy as he added 5.5 apg to his 32 ppg, and was [imo] beginning to be a fair/passable defender by this point, and solid SF rebounder as always. Was 1st in the league in PER, 1st in WS/48 and WS, 2nd in BPM and 1st in VORP, while also being 3rd in RAPM iirc [playing considerably more minutes than the guy in 2nd].

People rag on his playoff performance this year, though as has been noted in many prior spots, I'm not as playoff-centric as many appear to be. But it's worth touching on that he faced good-to-elite team defenses AND good-to-elite individual defenders every step of the way in the playoffs. He nonetheless averaged 29.6 ppg [again: league-leading] on +2.9% rTS in the playoffs, though his playmaking and turnovers did worsen a little. Breaking down the good defenses I'm referring to....

*1st round they faced the 7th-rated [-2.1 rDRTG] Grizzlies, with Memphis platooning Tony Allen, Tayshaun Prince (+/- a little James Johnson et al at times) on Durant. Durant averaged 29.9 ppg @ +0.2 rTS%, though 4.0 topg (to 3.4 apg; though also 9.6 rpg). He still averaged a team-best 19.7 GameScore and a +4 net rating facing that defensive core.

**2nd round they faced a 9th-rated [-1.9 rDRTG] Clippers team, who had Matt Barnes (plus some Jared Dudley) to primarily cover Durant. Durant averaged 33.2 ppg @ +7.9% rTS with 5.3 apg (4.0 topg; and again 9.5 rpg); averaged a team-best 24.7 GameScore, as well as a +9 net rating.

***3rd round they faced the eventual champ Spurs team [whom they took to 6 games, one further than the Heat managed in the finals]. This had been the 3rd-rated [-4.3 rDRTG] defense during the rs, and of course had the ultimate stopper at SF: a still defensively-applied Kawhi Leonard. A "shut down" Durant was still averaging 25.8 ppg @ +2.9% rTS with 3.2 apg and 3.3 topg [Leonard, fwiw, averaged 11.8 ppg @ -5.4% rTS].

And we know Durant is just about as portable as volume-scorers come. fwiw, I actually somewhat like '17 Durant better (all the good things that come with the '14 version, but better defensively [at least with his slightly reduced minutes and offensive role]). However, I think those things might have been made possible by the aforementioned reduced offensive role and minutes; and then there's the 20 missed games to consider. Still, it's in the running for my 3rd ballot.


2nd ballot - '15 Chris Paul - Wicked efficiency (both in terms of shooting and turnover economy) while leading a top-tier offense, and also being one of the best defensive PG's in the game. Played brilliantly in the playoffs, too, the only blemished being that he missed two playoff games [and did that cost them something?]; which was ironic, given he didn't miss a single game in the long rs.
I could see going for '08, but I just feel his defense was better in the later portions of his career, and his on-court impact has perhaps never looked better than in '15.


3rd ballot - '03 Tracy McGrady - 32.1 ppg @ +4.5% rTS, 6.5 rpg, 5.5 apg with a phenomenal turnover economy (just 2.6 topg despite the massive creation responsibilities). He led a pretty rag-tag supporting cast to 10th-rated offense, 42 wins and a playoff berth. In the playoffs, they/he are sometimes criticized for blowing a 3-1 series lead; but I take a more favorable look on it, noting that they took three games off a wildly superior Pistons team, a team they had no business being competitive against.
The Pistons were the 4th-rated (-3.7 rDRTG) defensive team, and had Michael Curry [who had an NBA career ONLY because of his defense] and a rookie Tayshaun Prince largely guarding TMac, with Ben Wallace hedging on the help and guarding the rim. TMac still averaged 31.7 ppg @ +3.2% rTS, 4.7 apg, 3.7 topg......pretty damn good under the circumstances, imo.



EDIT: I'd be perfectly content with any of Charles Barkley, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, or perhaps Patrick Ewing at this point, too. I'm somewhat warming to the idea of George Mikan around here, though likely won't be supporting him myself for at least a few threads (if he's still around).
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#7 » by No-more-rings » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:27 pm

Kobe fans can rest easy now lol.

1. 90 Pat Ewing- Highly efficient volume scorer and defensive anchor, took it to the Celtics in the 1st round dropping 31.6 ppg/59.7 ts%, and won in 5 who appeared to would’ve been favored over them that year, still managed 27 ppg/56 ts% against the eventual champion and very strong defense Pistons.

2. 19’ Kawhi- For me it’s as simple as his playoff run being imo better than anyone else who’s left. Yeah he missed 20ish games, but he accomplished what everyone strives to do and only some can dream of. And 2017 proved he can play a full season and still be rested enough to dominate, sure you can bring his durability into question, I remember him being a little banged up against the Warriors and maybe some of the Bucks series but he’s shown to have held up better than someone like Cp3 has proven.

3. 03 Tmac- I thought about the likes of Moses or Harden here, but Tmac’s stats are just more impressive considering that era, a 30.3 PER was unheard of for perimeter players and i think only Shaq matched or surpassed that from like the mid 90s up until Lebron in 09. And 32.1 ppg on +4.5 relative ts% just smashes anything anyone did scoring wise during that era.

I understand the unknown with him and the fact this was such an outlier season, but I can’t ignore such a statistically dominant season, and if we had more sample of years like this with playoff runs i’d
probably have this season at least 4-5 spots higher.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#8 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:34 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Why do you include Durant with Ewing, McGrady, and especially Malone?

What's his argument over Kawhi Leonard at his own position in his own era?

Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

As for comparing Durant to the other names on that shortlist? Like said it’s a working progress.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.


Durant had a 22 PER on 57% TS in 2014

Kawhi had a 31 PER on 67% TS in 2017

Playing 14 total more games doesn't make up for this gap.

As far as 2019, nobody even missed a game on the 76ers. Now you're just making up stuff. Everybody is banged up in the playoffs anyway. I guess you see what you want to see when your team is taking 1st round exits and the star that left your team is holding up the larry OB
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#9 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 4:51 pm

Spurs fans should be banned from talking about Leonard. Always criminally underrating Kawhi and its embarrassing. We get it you traded Kawhi for Pete Myers, deal with it and move on.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#10 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 5:37 pm

Odinn21 wrote:Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

I still think his best season is 2016 pretty easily and it's way more complete than any KD season to me. In 2017 his defense was nowhere near up to par and was above average at best. I mean the team was 9 points per possession better when he hit the bench. Then offensively his ballhogging finally became a thing and the team offense fell off a cliff with him taking possessions from LMA.

In 2019 I have the same hang ups as you, but on top of that I don't think Kawhi in his current form is on that top tier. His talent is still there but he's a ballhog that doesn't give effort on D.

Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.

What do you mean by this? What is this consistency? I can't think of any standard of consistency that doesn't apply to Pettit.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#11 » by Odinn21 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:15 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

I still think his best season is 2016 pretty easily and it's way more complete than any KD season to me. In 2017 his defense was nowhere near up to par and was above average at best. I mean the team was 9 points per possession better when he hit the bench. Then offensively his ballhogging finally became a thing and the team offense fell off a cliff with him taking possessions from LMA.

In 2019 I have the same hang ups as you, but on top of that I don't think Kawhi in his current form is on that top tier. His talent is still there but he's a ballhog that doesn't give effort on D.

Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.

What do you mean by this? What is this consistency? I can't think of any standard of consistency that doesn't apply to Pettit.

The reason I’m not considering 2016 for Kawhi is the reason he was just better in 2017 and 2019. At least he played better. And h2h between him and KD is far from conclusive. He wasn’t ‘clearly’ better than KD. So it kinda kills 2016 Kawhi’s case against peak KD.
Also I don’t think we’ve reached to the point where we ran out of peaks good enough to be in there and should focus the available bests.

As for Pettit, maybe I’m not as knowledgeable as you are on that part of NBA history. Can’t say much. When I think of Russell, Chamberlain, Duncan, Durant etc, I know how well did they did throughout their career. And there’s some consistency about evaluating those players. I don’t know that much about Pettit and what to do with his career. It’s probably my own issue.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#12 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:53 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

I still think his best season is 2016 pretty easily and it's way more complete than any KD season to me. In 2017 his defense was nowhere near up to par and was above average at best. I mean the team was 9 points per possession better when he hit the bench. Then offensively his ballhogging finally became a thing and the team offense fell off a cliff with him taking possessions from LMA.

In 2019 I have the same hang ups as you, but on top of that I don't think Kawhi in his current form is on that top tier. His talent is still there but he's a ballhog that doesn't give effort on D.

Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.

What do you mean by this? What is this consistency? I can't think of any standard of consistency that doesn't apply to Pettit.


Leonard's offense was on a whole another level in 2019 and 2017. Go check Kevin Durant's 2019 playoff scoring numbers, Leonard was still better at the time of Durant's injury! Two of the best offensive series performances ever in grizzles series and 76ers.

76ers series: 35 ppg 63% TS

Grizzles series: 31 ppg 71% TS 144 offensive rating

And than rockets series he put up Miami heat LeBron numbers.

I would say only only 1 or 2 guys on this entire list is capable of having offensive playoff series like that. Leonard played great defensive teams in 1st round like Grizzled and didn't have cake walks like LeBron in 2009. .

Leonard was still spurs 3rd best defender in 2017 in DBPM and the eye test matches that. He was at worst spurs 2nd best defender over old Gasol, only guy maybe better is Danny Green? He was playing great team defense. You are underrating Leonard as usual, still a better 1 on 1 defender than Bird ever was and was on the #1 defensive team in the league.

As far as the soft and unathletic robotic running loser Lamarcus Aldridge. He was never good enough to be a 2nd best player on a title team, he was in the category of a guy like Chris Bosh a strong 3rd option only. Leonard has said he told Spurs he wanted Paul George and that's because he knows Lamarcus Aldridge is the definition of soft and a bum! he will never win anything for him. If spurs fans want anybody to blame for kawhi demanding a trade? it should be themselves for signing Lamarcus Aldridge and pretending he's good enough to be a 2nd option on an elite offensive team. 9th best offensive rating is still very good with his supporting cast.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#13 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 6:57 pm

Odinn21 wrote:The reason I’m not considering 2016 for Kawhi is the reason he was just better in 2017 and 2019. At least he played better.

And here's my hangup, how? I mean he scored more, but was he a better scorer? Did it lead to better team results? Did it offset his massive drop defensively from 16 to 17 and 19?

In 2016 the Spurs with Kawhi on the court had a +14.1 net rating and a +12.1 rating without Tim Duncan on the court (to remove the one player of note that left the team between the 16 and 17 seasons). The Spurs in 17 had a +8.7 net rating with Kawhi on the court.

Without Kawhi in 2017 they had a +5.7 net rating and in 16 they had a +6.7 net rating without Kawhi. Really there's a major gap in the 17 and 16 Spurs and a small part of that is Duncan but it seems to me like the biggest reason for it was Kawhi not playing in the system in 17 and as a result Pop wasn't able to optimize his usage to make the team as good as possible.

Outside of his increased scoring average which was only possible with him hurting his teams I don't see any way I can say Kawhi improved after 2016.

And h2h between him and KD is far from conclusive. He wasn’t ‘clearly’ better than KD. So it kinda kills 2016 Kawhi’s case against peak KD.
Also I don’t think we’ve reached to the point where we ran out of peaks good enough to be in there and should focus the available bests.

I will agree that head to head 16 KD and 16 Kawhi were very close in terms of how they played each other in that series. That said I think that Kawhi still played great and his regular season craps on anything from KD. Not many players can lead a +10 team, and Kawhi has proven he can do that while also proving he could be a championship level first option. That's meaningful to me when outside of 2012 KD's kind of unproven in the postseason.

I mean 14 is the year most will pick as his peak and that's a year where he was clearly the 2nd best player on his own team in the playoffs (I remember Westbrook getting POTY hype around here for how he was playing even with the 46 games played). I find it hard to put KD this high over other guys that have been the best players on their own teams most of their careers and in their peak years.

As for Pettit, maybe I’m not as knowledgeable as you are on that part of NBA history. Can’t say much. When I think of Russell, Chamberlain, Duncan, Durant etc, I know how well did they did throughout their career. And there’s some consistency about evaluating those players. I don’t know that much about Pettit and what to do with his career. It’s probably my own issue.

Ah ok. Just read up on him then, it's not like they played that long before your scope. When Pettit made his last All-NBA 1st team it was 1964, a year already represented on this list. His career only started 2 years before Bill Russell, he's not that old compared to him and some others that will be on this list, so I think at the very least when people start making their cases for older guys you take them into consideration.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:01 pm

Odinn21 wrote: He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.


Leoanrd averaged 35/10/4 on 63+ ts%, its safe to say it's not his fault for that series going 7.

E-Balla wrote:
Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.


What are you talking about with this? The SPurs ORTG went from 110.3 to 111.1 in 2016 to 2017.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#15 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:13 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Odinn21 wrote: He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.


Leoanrd averaged 35/10/4 on 63+ ts%, its safe to say it's not his fault for that series going 7.

E-Balla wrote:
Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.


What are you talking about with this? The SPurs ORTG went from 110.3 to 111.1 in 2016 to 2017.

The NBA league average ORTG went from 106.4 to an (at the time) all time high by a distance 108.8 ORTG from 16 to 17. The Spurs ORTG only went up because of officiating changes, not because they actually were better. The 16 Spurs were a +3.9 offense, and the 17 Spurs were a +2.3 offense.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#16 » by E-Balla » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:23 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:Well, I’m working on this and those are the ones made the shortlist.

I’m not thinking Kawhi yet because the two season those can be considered as his peak got impaired.
In 2017, he got injured and that was it.
In 2019, he sat in one quarter of the season. It’s hard to consider a season like that as peak. What if he had to play for a team like Miami? He wouldn’t have the luxury to sit out like that. And his playoff run got way overrated. He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.

As good as he is, Kawhi doesn’t have a complete enough season to put him in there.
Do I think Kawhi at his best is at least as good as KD at his best? Yes. But he just doesn’t have that season to justify that opinion. Yet.

That’s how I see it about Kawhi.

I still think his best season is 2016 pretty easily and it's way more complete than any KD season to me. In 2017 his defense was nowhere near up to par and was above average at best. I mean the team was 9 points per possession better when he hit the bench. Then offensively his ballhogging finally became a thing and the team offense fell off a cliff with him taking possessions from LMA.

In 2019 I have the same hang ups as you, but on top of that I don't think Kawhi in his current form is on that top tier. His talent is still there but he's a ballhog that doesn't give effort on D.

Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.

I can explain why I do not include Mikan and Pettit though. I simply do not know how to evaluate them. Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, West, Baylor. All of these early legends have consistency in their career which overlaps with our way of evaluation. I don’t see that consistency in Mikan’s and Pettit’s career. So I’m staying out of the conversation I can’t back it up properly.

What do you mean by this? What is this consistency? I can't think of any standard of consistency that doesn't apply to Pettit.


Leonard's offense was on a whole another level in 2019 and 2017. Go check Kevin Durant's 2019 playoff scoring numbers, Leonard was still better at the time of Durant's injury! Two of the best offensive series performances ever in grizzles series and 76ers.

76ers series: 35 ppg 63% TS

Grizzles series: 31 ppg 71% TS 144 offensive rating

And than rockets series he put up Miami heat LeBron numbers.

I would say only only 1 or 2 guys on this entire list is capable of having offensive playoff series like that. Leonard played great defensive teams in 1st round like Grizzled and didn't have cake walks like LeBron in 2009. .

Leonard was still spurs 3rd best defender in 2017 in DBPM and the eye test matches that. He was at worst spurs 2nd best defender over old Gasol, only guy maybe better is Danny Green? He was playing great team defense. You are underrating Leonard as usual, still a better 1 on 1 defender than Bird ever was and was on the #1 defensive team in the league.

As far as the soft and unathletic robotic running loser Lamarcus Aldridge. He was never good enough to be a 2nd best player on a title team, he was in the category of a guy like Chris Bosh a strong 3rd option only. Leonard has said he told Spurs he wanted Paul George and that's because he knows Lamarcus Aldridge is the definition of soft and a bum! he will never win anything for him. If spurs fans want anybody to blame for kawhi demanding a trade? it should be themselves for signing Lamarcus Aldridge and pretending he's good enough to be a 2nd option on an elite offensive team. 9th best offensive rating is still very good with his supporting cast.

I usually ignore your posts because of the stanning but I'll comment on this because it's absurd and highlights an issue I have with Leonard and the 2017 season.

People crap on LMA but the 2019 Spurs (+2.5) had a better offense than the 2017 Spurs (+2.3). The 2016 Spurs had a +3.9 offense which is very good and better than any other offense Kawhi has been on. The Raps went from a +5.2 offense in 2018 to a +2.7 offense last year. There's no evidence that making Kawhi the singular first option helps your offense, and there's actually evidence of the opposite. Being the only option is good when you're on untalented teams and taking them higher than they'd be otherwise, but if you hold back great offenses and can't fit in to them it makes you a ballhog and that's not a positive by any stretch of the imagination.

Swapping Kawhi+Danny for Demar+Jakob shouldn't result in a better offense unless Kawhi's doing something to hold his teammates back.

And it's clearly not LMA holding them back when since 2014 he's been on a better offense than the 2017 Spurs each year other than 2018 when he was by himself without Kawhi, Demar, or Dame. He seems to be a good enough 2nd option and even first option at all other times, including his first year with Kawhi. It just happens to be he looked bad next to Kawhi once he started being a ballhog.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#17 » by trex_8063 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:24 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Durant had a 22 PER on 57% TS in 2014

Kawhi had a 31 PER on 67% TS in 2017

Playing 14 total more games doesn't make up for this gap.


fwiw, it's just a pinch strange to say X PER on Y TS%, given shooting efficiency is sort of baked right into the pie with these all-in-one metrics (granted PER considers it to a MUCH lesser degree than metrics like WS/48 or net rating).

Anyway, some might say '14 Durant had a 29.8 PER, a .295 WS/48, a +8.8 BPM, and a +19 net rating while playing 38.5 mpg......and that '19 Kawhi had a 25.8 PER, .224 WS/48, +5.0 BPM, and +14 net rating while playing 34.0 mpg (and missing more games).

Just sayin'; not everyone disregards what happens prior to late April.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#18 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:29 pm

E-Balla wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Odinn21 wrote: He was taken to a game 7 by the Sixers which were crippled by the injuries. And then he won against the Warriors which got more than crippled.


Leoanrd averaged 35/10/4 on 63+ ts%, its safe to say it's not his fault for that series going 7.

E-Balla wrote:
Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.


What are you talking about with this? The SPurs ORTG went from 110.3 to 111.1 in 2016 to 2017.

The NBA league average ORTG went from 106.4 to an (at the time) all time high by a distance 108.8 ORTG from 16 to 17. The Spurs ORTG only went up because of officiating changes, not because they actually were better. The 16 Spurs were a +3.9 offense, and the 17 Spurs were a +2.3 offense.

this sure isn't "falling off a cliff" though

I think you're way overrating the defensive dropoff. It was there but he was still the best defender on the team by a long stretch. Duncan leaving hurt the defense a lot.

As far as ball hogging, Kawhi was the only guy who could get a shot off on that offense for much of the year. If anything, he was the only reason the team offense *didn't* fall off a cliff.
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T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
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K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#19 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:38 pm

E-Balla wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:I still think his best season is 2016 pretty easily and it's way more complete than any KD season to me. In 2017 his defense was nowhere near up to par and was above average at best. I mean the team was 9 points per possession better when he hit the bench. Then offensively his ballhogging finally became a thing and the team offense fell off a cliff with him taking possessions from LMA.

In 2019 I have the same hang ups as you, but on top of that I don't think Kawhi in his current form is on that top tier. His talent is still there but he's a ballhog that doesn't give effort on D.

Why wouldn't you include 2016 along with 2017 and 2019? Is it his scoring, because that increased scoring production is only a positive if it led to better offensive results, and it didn't. Losing old man Duncan isn't why the Spurs offense fell off a cliff.


What do you mean by this? What is this consistency? I can't think of any standard of consistency that doesn't apply to Pettit.


Leonard's offense was on a whole another level in 2019 and 2017. Go check Kevin Durant's 2019 playoff scoring numbers, Leonard was still better at the time of Durant's injury! Two of the best offensive series performances ever in grizzles series and 76ers.

76ers series: 35 ppg 63% TS

Grizzles series: 31 ppg 71% TS 144 offensive rating

And than rockets series he put up Miami heat LeBron numbers.

I would say only only 1 or 2 guys on this entire list is capable of having offensive playoff series like that. Leonard played great defensive teams in 1st round like Grizzled and didn't have cake walks like LeBron in 2009. .

Leonard was still spurs 3rd best defender in 2017 in DBPM and the eye test matches that. He was at worst spurs 2nd best defender over old Gasol, only guy maybe better is Danny Green? He was playing great team defense. You are underrating Leonard as usual, still a better 1 on 1 defender than Bird ever was and was on the #1 defensive team in the league.

As far as the soft and unathletic robotic running loser Lamarcus Aldridge. He was never good enough to be a 2nd best player on a title team, he was in the category of a guy like Chris Bosh a strong 3rd option only. Leonard has said he told Spurs he wanted Paul George and that's because he knows Lamarcus Aldridge is the definition of soft and a bum! he will never win anything for him. If spurs fans want anybody to blame for kawhi demanding a trade? it should be themselves for signing Lamarcus Aldridge and pretending he's good enough to be a 2nd option on an elite offensive team. 9th best offensive rating is still very good with his supporting cast.

I usually ignore your posts because of the stanning but I'll comment on this because it's absurd and highlights an issue I have with Leonard and the 2017 season.

People crap on LMA but the 2019 Spurs (+2.5) had a better offense than the 2017 Spurs (+2.3). The 2016 Spurs had a +3.9 offense which is very good and better than any other offense Kawhi has been on. The Raps went from a +5.2 offense in 2018 to a +2.7 offense last year. There's no evidence that making Kawhi the singular first option helps your offense, and there's actually evidence of the opposite. Being the only option is good when you're on untalented teams and taking them higher than they'd be otherwise, but if you hold back great offenses and can't fit in to them it makes you a ballhog and that's not a positive by any stretch of the imagination.

Swapping Kawhi+Danny for Demar+Jakob shouldn't result in a better offense unless Kawhi's doing something to hold his teammates back.

And it's clearly not LMA holding them back when since 2014 he's been on a better offense than the 2017 Spurs each year other than 2018 when he was by himself without Kawhi, Demar, or Dame. He seems to be a good enough 2nd option and even first option at all other times, including his first year with Kawhi. It just happens to be he looked bad next to Kawhi once he started being a ballhog.


All that means is Lamarcus likes Derozan better than he liked Kawhi in 2017 and had better chemistry with him. Lamarcus still played better with Kawhi than Chris Bosh or Kevin Love played with Lebron? So I don't see the criticism there. Either way, Lamarcus could never get the job done. He couldn't even get his team past the 1 man Jokic nuggets, that's sad actually. Kawhi elevates his teams offense in the playoffs and 2017 spurs was the best offensive playoff team lamarcus ever played on.

What about spurs in 2017 #1 defensive rating with Kawhi in 2017
#19 without Kawhi in 2019.

That #19 doesn't do them justice either because I remember the 2019 spurs were actually dead last place in many defensive stat categories in the first 20 or 30 games as well. Still, dropping from 1 to 19 is embarrassing. Old Tony Parker and Pau Gasol are gone and they still dtopped that bad? Testimony to Kawhi's defense.
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Re: #21 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#20 » by cecilthesheep » Tue Sep 3, 2019 7:40 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:As far as 2019, nobody even missed a game on the 76ers. Now you're just making up stuff. Everybody is banged up in the playoffs anyway. I guess you see what you want to see when your team is taking 1st round exits and the star that left your team is holding up the larry OB


HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Spurs fans should be banned from talking about Leonard. Always criminally underrating Kawhi and its embarrassing. We get it you traded Kawhi for Pete Myers, deal with it and move on.


HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:As far as the soft and unathletic robotic running loser Lamarcus Aldridge. He was never good enough to be a 2nd best player on a title team, he was in the category of a guy like Chris Bosh a strong 3rd option only. Leonard has said he told Spurs he wanted Paul George and that's because he knows Lamarcus Aldridge is the definition of soft and a bum! he will never win anything for him. If spurs fans want anybody to blame for kawhi demanding a trade? it should be themselves for signing Lamarcus Aldridge and pretending he's good enough to be a 2nd option on an elite offensive team.

ಠ_ಠ there's a lot going on here ... face it, Kawhi's complicated. I'll argue all day that he was a better player than Durant in 2017, but the injury complicates that year a lot. I'll probably still vote for '17 Kawhi before I vote for Durant, that said, you need to chill out. This is something reasonable people can disagree on.
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T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75

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