When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch?

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When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#1 » by 2klegend » Wed Sep 4, 2019 1:41 am

MJ's 4 years sketch from '88-'91, from a statistical standpoint, is pure dominant.

Michael Jordan: Advanced (1987-88 to 1990-91)

31.4 PER, .607 TS%, .301 WS/48 ,11.5 BPM, 43.7 VORP
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#2 » by freethedevil » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:27 am

Sooner than someone can statistically surpass bron's 09 playoff or wilt's top rs's
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#3 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:38 am

Give me

1962-65 Russell
1964-67 Wilt
1971-74 Kareem
1977-80 Kareem

and I can compete with anyone. Not to mention some James, Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem stretches.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#4 » by Odinn21 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 7:48 am

LeBron James from 2008-09 to 2012-13;
30.4 per, 0.606 ts, 0.296 ws/48, 11.3 bpm, 48.0 vorp (40.6 if we exclude the lockout season to match that 4 years)

I won’t even argue why looking at players like this is purely flawed. Just wanted to show it’s already been done by some other than MJ.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#5 » by E-Balla » Wed Sep 4, 2019 11:35 am

Odinn21 wrote:LeBron James from 2008-09 to 2012-13;
30.4 per, 0.606 ts, 0.296 ws/48, 11.3 bpm, 48.0 vorp (40.6 if we exclude the lockout season to match that 4 years)

I won’t even argue why looking at players like this is purely flawed. Just wanted to show it’s already been done by some other than MJ.

Those numbers are all under MJs so no it hasn't been done. Not even a fan of those numbers but MJ is the best going off of them.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#6 » by Odinn21 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 1:16 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:LeBron James from 2008-09 to 2012-13;
30.4 per, 0.606 ts, 0.296 ws/48, 11.3 bpm, 48.0 vorp (40.6 if we exclude the lockout season to match that 4 years)

I won’t even argue why looking at players like this is purely flawed. Just wanted to show it’s already been done by some other than MJ.

Those numbers are all under MJs so no it hasn't been done. Not even a fan of those numbers but MJ is the best going off of them.

LeBron led the league in all of those categories in that 5 seasons span. And his numbers a bit down due 2010-11 season.

This is his statline from 2008-09 to 2012-13 without 2010-11, 4 seasons;
31.3 per, 0.609 ts, 0.310 ws/48, 12.1 bpm, 0.1349 vorp per game

MJ from 1987-88 to 1990-91;
31.4 per, 0.607 ts, 0.301 ws/48, 11.5 bpm, 0.1336 vorp per game

(Used vorp per game to eliminate the effect of the lockout season.)

So, if excluding anything before or after that 4 seasons span of MJ is OK to reach the highest possibility (doing this is arbitrary in the end), it’s OK for me to exclude 2010-11 season as well, and it’s not like I ignore context while doing this. This is not much different from including 1986-87 or 1991-92 season to match 5 season number.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#7 » by Mazter » Wed Sep 4, 2019 2:38 pm

Probably sooner than someone breaking LeBron's 10 consecutive seasons stretch with:
29.1 - .609 - .263 - 10.1 - 85.8
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#8 » by KTM_2813 » Wed Sep 4, 2019 4:46 pm

I would kill to see MJ's RAPM or RPM from that time. Sadly, I don't think those become available until... What, 1997? Those stats would be really interesting.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#9 » by Franco » Wed Sep 4, 2019 5:10 pm

Why is it hard to answer a Jordan question without bringing LeBron into the mix? Jesus Christ.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#10 » by Mazter » Wed Sep 4, 2019 8:58 pm

Franco wrote:Why is it hard to answer a Jordan question without bringing LeBron into the mix? Jesus Christ.

Well, don't know for the other Jordan questions, but maybe because in this case LeBron was the only one coming close. And if the cut would have not been coincidentally set at 4 years LeBron would have getting close and even surpass Jordan the more years you add.

Besides, I don't really believe this was a question which expected an answer like 4, 10, 50 or 100 years. More one to point out a impressive 4 year stretch by Jordan. Which it is, but then there is even impressive 5 year stretch, and in the end a more impressive 10 year stretch. And most likely the 4 year stretch will be broken a couple of years before the 10 year one will be broken...by the same player. He might be in elementary, in kindergarten or maybe not even born yet.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#11 » by 2klegend » Thu Sep 5, 2019 12:21 am

Mazter wrote:
Franco wrote:Why is it hard to answer a Jordan question without bringing LeBron into the mix? Jesus Christ.

Well, don't know for the other Jordan questions, but maybe because in this case LeBron was the only one coming close. And if the cut would have not been coincidentally set at 4 years LeBron would have getting close and even surpass Jordan the more years you add.

Besides, I don't really believe this was a question which expected an answer like 4, 10, 50 or 100 years. More one to point out a impressive 4 year stretch by Jordan. Which it is, but then there is even impressive 5 year stretch, and in the end a more impressive 10 year stretch. And most likely the 4 year stretch will be broken a couple of years before the 10 year one will be broken...by the same player. He might be in elementary, in kindergarten or maybe not even born yet.

You can have 5 years consecutive span if you like because typically 5-years span coincided with Jordan athletic peak. The mind, the body, and the soul really play the game at its true form, intelligent + prowess. After 5 years, players don't play with that same reckless abandon anymore but instead smarter and trying to conserve energy so you don't get that explosive stat.

REGULAR
MJ '87-'91 (age 23-27) - missing just one game in 5 years.
31.1PER .596 TS% .290 WS/48 10.9 BPM 52.5 VORP

Lebron 2009-2013 (age 24-28)
30.4PER .606 TS% .296 WS/48 11.3 BPM 48.0 VORP

POSTSEASON RUN
MJ '87-'91 (age 23-27)
30.6PER .594 TS% .279 WS/48 13.1BPM 10.0 VORP

Lebron 2009-2013 (age 24-28)
29.1PER .587 TS% 270 WS/48 11.1BPM 12.9 VORP

Lebron is the closest. Just to show people how remarkable these two talents are when their body and mind combine are well above everyone else. Also let remind the young kids nowadays who think the Kawhi, the Greek freak, the Curry of this era how dominant they were, not just from the eye test but also from a record book perspective.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#12 » by RCM88x » Thu Sep 5, 2019 1:50 am

But what about a 5 year consecutive sketch?
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#13 » by bledredwine » Thu Sep 5, 2019 2:52 am

Odinn21 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:LeBron James from 2008-09 to 2012-13;
30.4 per, 0.606 ts, 0.296 ws/48, 11.3 bpm, 48.0 vorp (40.6 if we exclude the lockout season to match that 4 years)

I won’t even argue why looking at players like this is purely flawed. Just wanted to show it’s already been done by some other than MJ.

Those numbers are all under MJs so no it hasn't been done. Not even a fan of those numbers but MJ is the best going off of them.

LeBron led the league in all of those categories in that 5 seasons span. And his numbers a bit down due 2010-11 season.

This is his statline from 2008-09 to 2012-13 without 2010-11, 4 seasons;
31.3 per, 0.609 ts, 0.310 ws/48, 12.1 bpm, 0.1349 vorp per game

MJ from 1987-88 to 1990-91;
31.4 per, 0.607 ts, 0.301 ws/48, 11.5 bpm, 0.1336 vorp per game

(Used vorp per game to eliminate the effect of the lockout season.)

So, if excluding anything before or after that 4 seasons span of MJ is OK to reach the highest possibility (doing this is arbitrary in the end), it’s OK for me to exclude 2010-11 season as well, and it’s not like I ignore context while doing this. This is not much different from including 1986-87 or 1991-92 season to match 5 season number.



So you had to eliminate Lebron’s worst season in that stretch just for it to almost equal Jordan’s? Cherry picking enough? Let’s also not sit here and pretend that 30 per hasn’t been a heck of a lot more achievable in this era and by more players.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#14 » by Baski » Thu Sep 5, 2019 7:21 am

bledredwine wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Those numbers are all under MJs so no it hasn't been done. Not even a fan of those numbers but MJ is the best going off of them.

LeBron led the league in all of those categories in that 5 seasons span. And his numbers a bit down due 2010-11 season.

This is his statline from 2008-09 to 2012-13 without 2010-11, 4 seasons;
31.3 per, 0.609 ts, 0.310 ws/48, 12.1 bpm, 0.1349 vorp per game

MJ from 1987-88 to 1990-91;
31.4 per, 0.607 ts, 0.301 ws/48, 11.5 bpm, 0.1336 vorp per game

(Used vorp per game to eliminate the effect of the lockout season.)

So, if excluding anything before or after that 4 seasons span of MJ is OK to reach the highest possibility (doing this is arbitrary in the end), it’s OK for me to exclude 2010-11 season as well, and it’s not like I ignore context while doing this. This is not much different from including 1986-87 or 1991-92 season to match 5 season number.



So you had to eliminate Lebron’s worst season in that stretch just for it to almost equal Jordan’s? Cherry picking enough? Let’s also not sit here and pretend that 30 per hasn’t been a heck of a lot more achievable in this era and by more players.

This is pretty true, but Lebron's done it so many times you have to assume he'd get it regardless of era just like Jordan.
But yeah I believe there'll be a whole lot of 30 PERs in the coming seasons because of all the stat and efficiency bumps players get/pursue these days.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#15 » by Odinn21 » Thu Sep 5, 2019 9:25 am

Like I said, picking 4 consecutive seasons as the topic because it is the best fit is no less arbitrary than me considering 2010-11 season as an outlier due to context.
You don’t have to get sensitive anything and everything about MJ, you know.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#16 » by bledredwine » Thu Sep 5, 2019 11:36 am

Odinn21 wrote:Like I said, picking 4 consecutive seasons as the topic because it is the best fit is no less arbitrary than me considering 2010-11 season as an outlier due to context.
You don’t have to get sensitive anything and everything about MJ, you know.


It’s not sensitivity. It’s calling out unfair biases and cherry-picking. It’s something that I’ve noticed Lebron fans do most and it’s a bit aggravating. You don’t see Jordan fans posting “up till age ____” stats for example, like Lebron fans used to. Now it’s pretty much longetivity-favored and catered to specific series of leading teams in multiple categories (namely one series), because those are two of the feats Lebron has over Jordan. For Jordan fans, it’s posting about achievements, scoring, playoff runs, and so on, which are generally more valid, especially since Jordan’s duty on the team wasn’t to run the point. Point being, most of the cross era stats arguments, especially among perimeter players, are fairly stupid. When there aren’t many long-term arguments for your player, t
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#17 » by Bidofo » Thu Sep 5, 2019 4:16 pm

bledredwine wrote:So you had to eliminate Lebron’s worst season in that stretch just for it to almost equal Jordan’s? Cherry picking enough? Let’s also not sit here and pretend that 30 per hasn’t been a heck of a lot more achievable in this era and by more players.

You understand this whole premise of 4 consecutive years is already arbitrary and a bit cherry-picky because it happens to be Jordan's best 4 year stretch, right? Lol at saying he "almost" equals Jordan's when LeBron beats him in 4 of the 5 stats that were listed (although adjusted for era, Jordan's rTS% should be higher, so really just 3 out of 5).

Also you seem to confuse this "era" with LeBron's entire career, as if since 2003 the league has been bombing away threes and running up and down the court like mad men. That recent change really only happened around 2017. LeBron's last 30+ PER season was 2013. Here is league-wide ORTG and pace in the years Jordan had 30+ PER and 2013:

1988: 108 ORTG, 99.6 pace
1989: 107.8 ORTG, 100.6 pace
1990: 108.1 ORTG, 98.3 pace
1991: 107.9 ORTG, 97.8 pace
2013: 105.9 ORTG, 92 pace

So no, your default rationale of "stat inflation" does not apply in the slightest. Maybe we should start taking into account Jordan's stat inflation? :D :wink:
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#18 » by Ainosterhaspie » Thu Sep 5, 2019 8:54 pm

Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:LeBron led the league in all of those categories in that 5 seasons span. And his numbers a bit down due 2010-11 season.

This is his statline from 2008-09 to 2012-13 without 2010-11, 4 seasons;
31.3 per, 0.609 ts, 0.310 ws/48, 12.1 bpm, 0.1349 vorp per game

MJ from 1987-88 to 1990-91;
31.4 per, 0.607 ts, 0.301 ws/48, 11.5 bpm, 0.1336 vorp per game

(Used vorp per game to eliminate the effect of the lockout season.)

So, if excluding anything before or after that 4 seasons span of MJ is OK to reach the highest possibility (doing this is arbitrary in the end), it’s OK for me to exclude 2010-11 season as well, and it’s not like I ignore context while doing this. This is not much different from including 1986-87 or 1991-92 season to match 5 season number.



So you had to eliminate Lebron’s worst season in that stretch just for it to almost equal Jordan’s? Cherry picking enough? Let’s also not sit here and pretend that 30 per hasn’t been a heck of a lot more achievable in this era and by more players.

This is pretty true, but Lebron's done it so many times you have to assume he'd get it regardless of era just like Jordan.
But yeah I believe there'll be a whole lot of 30 PERs in the coming seasons because of all the stat and efficiency bumps players get/pursue these days.


Only LeBron stopped hitting 30 a few years ago. Current bumps in nember of guys hitting that number aren't reflective of LeBron's era. The offensive uptick is happening just as he's leaving his prime. It may be helping him sustain nice raw numbers as he ages, but it isn't why he put up the numbers he did in his prime years.
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#19 » by 1993Playoffs » Thu Sep 5, 2019 9:00 pm

Wish the ignore feature actually wiped out all the post of the person your ignoring ,so i don't have to read their gibberish in quotes ....
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Re: When will someone surpass MJ's 4 years consecutive sketch? 

Post#20 » by bledredwine » Thu Sep 5, 2019 10:53 pm

Bidofo wrote:
bledredwine wrote:So you had to eliminate Lebron’s worst season in that stretch just for it to almost equal Jordan’s? Cherry picking enough? Let’s also not sit here and pretend that 30 per hasn’t been a heck of a lot more achievable in this era and by more players.

You understand this whole premise of 4 consecutive years is already arbitrary and a bit cherry-picky because it happens to be Jordan's best 4 year stretch, right? Lol at saying he "almost" equals Jordan's when LeBron beats him in 4 of the 5 stats that were listed (although adjusted for era, Jordan's rTS% should be higher, so really just 3 out of 5).

Also you seem to confuse this "era" with LeBron's entire career, as if since 2003 the league has been bombing away threes and running up and down the court like mad men. That recent change really only happened around 2017. LeBron's last 30+ PER season was 2013. Here is league-wide ORTG and pace in the years Jordan had 30+ PER and 2013:

1988: 108 ORTG, 99.6 pace
1989: 107.8 ORTG, 100.6 pace
1990: 108.1 ORTG, 98.3 pace
1991: 107.9 ORTG, 97.8 pace
2013: 105.9 ORTG, 92 pace

So no, your default rationale of "stat inflation" does not apply in the slightest. Maybe we should start taking into account Jordan's stat inflation? :D :wink:


Overall dominance and stats over the period of 4 years is NOT cherry picking.

However, this thread did have Jordan in mind. Still, it's one thing to pick a series, or to eliminate the worst year in a 4 year stretch to try and compare someone else without eliminating the worst year of Jordan's. Now that is cherry-picking in your favor and giving an advantage to one side.

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