#22 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#21 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 12:25 pm

No-more-rings wrote:2. 19’ Kawhi- For me it’s as simple as his playoff run being imo better than anyone else who’s left. Yeah he missed 20ish games, but he accomplished what everyone strives to do and only some can dream of.
.

His team, which won at a 60 win pace without him, achieved what everyone else wanted. Frankly, I'm not even seeing a clear case that kawhi had a better run than giannis given that playoff metrics strongly favor giannis over kawhi. That aside, kawhi played like a all star throughout the season, somethign he only had the luxury of doing because he had one of if not the best supporting casts in the league. We can logically assume that on most teams his playoff performance would dip because he wouldn't have the luxury of playing terrible for 82 games.

It's also wierd that people keep brining up his success with the raptors when the raptors weren't special offensively. Kawhi is almost exclusively an isolation scorer who led an alright playoff offense, and needed a 50+ win supporting cast to allow him to play like that. If we put kawhi on the bucks

A. He can't get a good seed, or even make the playoffs playing like he did during the rs
B. He won't have a +9 defense to lift offensively
C. He won't have playmakers that allow him to focus on scoring

Kawhi shouldn't be getting votes over giannis imo who aside from having a bigger impact in the playoffs can actually perform at an mvp level in the postseason without playing like donovan mitchell in the rs.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#22 » by No-more-rings » Sat Sep 7, 2019 12:37 pm

freethedevil wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:2. 19’ Kawhi- For me it’s as simple as his playoff run being imo better than anyone else who’s left. Yeah he missed 20ish games, but he accomplished what everyone strives to do and only some can dream of.
.

His team, which won at a 60 win pace without him, achieved what everyone else wanted. Frankly, I'm not even seeing a clear case that kawhi had a better run than giannis given that playoff metrics strongly favor giannis over kawhi. That aside, kawhi played like a all star throughout the season, somethign he only had the luxury of doing because he had one of if not the best supporting casts in the league. We can logically assume that on most teams his playoff performance would dip because he wouldn't have the luxury of playing terrible for 82 games.

It's also wierd that people keep brining up his success with the raptors when the raptors weren't special offensively. Kawhi is almost exclusively an isolation scorer who led an alright playoff offense, and needed a 50+ win supporting cast to allow him to play like that. If we put kawhi on the bucks

A. He can't get a good seed, or even make the playoffs playing like he did during the rs
B. He won't have a +9 defense to lift offensively
C. He won't have playmakers that allow him to focus on scoring

Kawhi shouldn't be getting votes over giannis imo who aside from having a bigger impact in the playoffs can actually perform at an mvp level in the postseason without playing like donovan mitchell in the rs.

Which playoff metrics support Giannis over Kawhi?

Kawhi smashes him in on/off, has a higher PER, ts %, and his BPM is slightly lower 8.6 to 9.0.

As to the other stuff, yeah Kawhi probably couldn’t have regular season impact like Giannis, but it means less to me since he doesn’t have a major flaw that can significantly minimize his impact like we saw when the 2 teams squared off. Maybe it’s overreacting a bit to one series, but it’s really bad when you go from averaging 28 ppg on 64 ts% in the regular season to just 23 ppg/52 ts% in a big series. Offensively it was like a 2011 Lebron vs Mavs series except he couldn’t pass like Lebron.

Edit- Also i think it’s absurd to think that the Bucks would miss the playoffs with Kawhi instead. They’d make the playoffs without either of them.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#23 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 1:00 pm

Because Kawhi comfortably trails Giannis in season CORP (whoops, and PIPM), so end of discussion. :roll: Never mind how comfortably outplayed Giannis was in those final four games, when it mattered most.
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Eballa wrote:I'm saying you're wrong for valuing a style of play that led to a worse team offense
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#24 » by AdagioPace » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:51 pm

If I was participating I wouldn't wote for Kawhi yet (Durant, Giannis, Harden, Barkley, Ewing...so many people deserving).....but: 2017 Kawhi (ultimate spurs version) would have a way better case than 2019 Kawhi. His RS is clearly superior and his PS (even assuming his stats would have settled vs the Warriors in the WCF) is comparable to its '19 counterpart until that point. Winning bias is really something...
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#25 » by DatAsh » Sat Sep 7, 2019 2:58 pm

Honestly kinda forgot about Giannis, and think he can be reasonably argued against Ewing.

On Giannis vs Barkley: Barkley is probably 2-3x the offensive player, but Giannis is also a DPOY caliber defender, so I can see a case for either guy.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#26 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 6:46 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:Because Kawhi comfortably trails Giannis in season CORP (whoops, and PIPM), so end of discussion. :roll: Never mind how comfortably outplayed Giannis was in those final four games, when it mattered most.

Kawhi was +16 Giannis was +13 in a series decided by 6 points. If by outplayed you mean scored more?

sure.

If by outplayed you mean improved his team's chances of winning? Nah, it was more a draw then anything. But i can see how ppg might have fooled you. :roll:

Kawhi had the significantly better supporting cast and had to take the rs off to scrape by giannis by playing him to a relative draw. Pretty obvious who's the better player.

FYI "matter most"m did you forget the finals where kawhi's sole ability, scoring, took a hit, his marginal defense became near non existent.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#27 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 6:46 pm

AdagioPace wrote:If I was participating I wouldn't wote for Kawhi yet (Durant, Giannis, Harden, Barkley, Ewing...so many people deserving).....but: 2017 Kawhi (ultimate spurs version) would have a way better case than 2019 Kawhi. His RS is clearly superior and his PS (even assuming his stats would have settled vs the Warriors in the WCF) is comparable to its '19 counterpart until that point. Winning bias is really something...

Kawhi getting injured in 2017 basically destroys his case.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#28 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 7:01 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:2. 19’ Kawhi- For me it’s as simple as his playoff run being imo better than anyone else who’s left. Yeah he missed 20ish games, but he accomplished what everyone strives to do and only some can dream of.
.

His team, which won at a 60 win pace without him, achieved what everyone else wanted. Frankly, I'm not even seeing a clear case that kawhi had a better run than giannis given that playoff metrics strongly favor giannis over kawhi. That aside, kawhi played like a all star throughout the season, somethign he only had the luxury of doing because he had one of if not the best supporting casts in the league. We can logically assume that on most teams his playoff performance would dip because he wouldn't have the luxury of playing terrible for 82 games.

It's also wierd that people keep brining up his success with the raptors when the raptors weren't special offensively. Kawhi is almost exclusively an isolation scorer who led an alright playoff offense, and needed a 50+ win supporting cast to allow him to play like that. If we put kawhi on the bucks

A. He can't get a good seed, or even make the playoffs playing like he did during the rs
B. He won't have a +9 defense to lift offensively
C. He won't have playmakers that allow him to focus on scoring

Kawhi shouldn't be getting votes over giannis imo who aside from having a bigger impact in the playoffs can actually perform at an mvp level in the postseason without playing like donovan mitchell in the rs.

Which playoff metrics support Giannis over Kawhi?

Kawhi smashes him in on/off, has a higher PER, ts %, and his BPM is slightly lower 8.6 to 9.0.

As to the other stuff, yeah Kawhi probably couldn’t have regular season impact like Giannis, but it means less to me since he doesn’t have a major flaw that can significantly minimize his impact like we saw when the 2 teams squared off.

Edit- Also i think it’s absurd to think that the Bucks would miss the playoffs with Kawhi instead. They’d make the playoffs without either of them.

:Did you forget the previous season, when Giannis, who had yet to become one of the league's best defenders barelty carried the bucks into the playoffs? There is literally no reason to assume the bucks would make the playoffs without giannis and there's now way they're the second best team in the playoffs. The raptors on the other hand won at a 63 win pace without kawhi and are a second round worthy side with kawhi out of the mix. Kawhi's significantly better cast outscored giannis's by 6 points over 6 games. Kawhi led a marginally better team with a significantly better cast.

I also have no idea what on/off you're looking at. Even if we were to isolate the mil-tor series, kawhi was +16 to Giannis's +13. that's not "destroy" by any sort of imagination. That's what you would expect of two equal players where one team wins and one team loses a close series. Overall playoff metrics put giannis ahead be it pipm, luck adjusted rpm, or elgee's bpm model.

Those are all off course metrics that do a better job predicting w;s than per and which come from the gamescore(winning) rather than arbitrary weights like per does.
Maybe it’s overreacting a bit to one series, but it’s really bad when you go from averaging 28 ppg on 64 ts% in the regular season to just 23 ppg/52 ts% in a big series. Offensively it was like a 2011 Lebron vs Mavs series except he couldn’t pass like Lebron.

It's really bad for giannis's standards. For kawhi? 23 ppg/52% ts vs a +9 defense while anchoring your own +9 defense is as good as anythign we've seen kawhi do all season which is why they're different levels of players. Kawhi's best series of his season can compare to Giannis's worst or second worst, and to get that series he needs to be on a team that wins at a 63 win pace without him. Kawhi has to major flaws compared to giannis. He's a worse passer who is a turnover machine when he has to run things and he's a non factor defensively. Giannis with "minimized impact" is still as impactful as kawhi is. Kawhi without maximized impact isn't on par with giannis. If the raptors were an incredible offense, kawhi might have a case here, but the offense was never great which means that kawhi, a player whose imapct is almost solely offensive wasn't very impressive compared to other superstars.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#29 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 7:17 pm

It sure is going to blow a lot of minds when the Raptors fail to even approach sixty wins or present any real playoff threat this season. :lol:
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Eballa wrote:I'm saying you're wrong for valuing a style of play that led to a worse team offense
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#30 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 7:37 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:It sure is going to blow a lot of minds when the Raptors fail to even approach sixty wins or present any real playoff threat this season. :lol:

Approaching 50 wins would be more than sufficient to prove my point. Not sure what you're using "playoff threat" for. Embid, Giannis, Curry, KD, and Harden are all good enough to make the raps a contender so it doesn't say much about kawhi being a top 22 ever peak
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#31 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Sep 7, 2019 8:07 pm

Curry is already in, Giannis faltered head-to-head, Durant never had a run as good as Kawhi’s without Curry, Harden never had a run as good as Kawhi’s, and Embiid both showcased major offensive limitations and has never led his team anywhere the way Kawhi did. Kawhi had the most efficient high-volume scoring championship run ever, behind only the duo of 2017 Curry/Durant (quelle coincidence). Expand to conference finals, and you only add a couple of other guys who were in the top ten.

And if fifty wins were “more than sufficient”, you would not need to continually parrot that profoundly dishonest “63-wins without Kawhi” extrapolation.
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Eballa wrote:I'm saying you're wrong for valuing a style of play that led to a worse team offense
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#32 » by DatAsh » Sat Sep 7, 2019 8:21 pm

AdagioPace wrote:If I was participating I wouldn't wote for Kawhi yet (Durant, Giannis, Harden, Barkley, Ewing...so many people deserving).....but: 2017 Kawhi (ultimate spurs version) would have a way better case than 2019 Kawhi. His RS is clearly superior and his PS (even assuming his stats would have settled vs the Warriors in the WCF) is comparable to its '19 counterpart until that point. Winning bias is really something...

But 2017 Kawhi got injured. That drops him like a hundred spots for me.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#33 » by freethedevil » Sat Sep 7, 2019 10:55 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:Curry is already in, Giannis faltered head-to-head

Giannis faltered and was still as good as kawhi which should tell you all you need to know about who should be getting picked here.
, Durant never had a run as good as Kawhi’s without Curry,

Kawhi has never had a run as good as many of durant's okc ones without a +9 defense. Durant has led better playoff offenses though, even without curry.
Harden never had a run as good as Kawhi’s,

By your logic? His 2019 run where he outplayed durant and curry head to head was better.

and Embiid both showcased major offensive limitations and has never led his team anywhere the way Kawhi did.

Kawhi has shown major offensive and defensive limitations. The second line is basically kawhi won, embid didn't which isn't something you're willing to apply consistently.

Kawhi had the most efficient high-volume scoring championship run ever,

Come back to me when you adjust for league-wide effiency. Also lol @cherrypicking scoring. His defense? No stat marks him as more than the slightest of positives. His playmaking? Going by playoff assist to to ratio, passer rating, box creation, or basically anything, he's among the bottom of current superstars. I might care if you could show me his scoring outweighed everything else but that's hard to do when the raptors were merely a +2 offense in the playoffs and a +9 defense. Coincidentally, in terms of actually improving his team, his playoff #"s aren't even top 5. If I subscribed to outscoring = outplaying or better team= better player, your analysis might make sense. But the slighest bit of contexting tells me the player whose only superstar level attribute led his team to a whopping +2 playoff offense despite having the luxury to lay off the pedal for a season specifically for that whopping +2 playoff offense didn't have the 22nd best peak ever. Harden was clearly wearing down towards the end of the rs. Hard to see that being a problem for him if he was playing on the raps instead of the rockets, but again, context is difficult to consider when you're trying to equate winning a championship with a player being the best in the league.

And if fifty wins were “more than sufficient”, you would not need to continually parrot that profoundly dishonest “63-wins without Kawhi” extrapolation.

I'm doing you a favor and assuming weakened scheduling could strip that down by 13. It honestly probably doesn't and, assuming everyone stays as good as they were this season, I'd expect something similar to their 2017-2018 season which is way more than i would expect from if i took curry off the warriors, giannis off the bucks and more than what i'd expect from the rockets without harden or the 6ers without embid. Kawhi made a very good team great by moderately upgrading their offense. That's basically the bare minumim for being a superstar.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#34 » by Morb » Sun Sep 8, 2019 12:00 am

1. Bob McAdoo 1975 - Scoring Machine, shooting 6'10, rebounds, historically great series vs DRtg 91.3 (-6.4). Wow.
2. Chris Paul 2008 - Top 3 PG Peak, assists, tempo, midrange, quickness, low tovs, good series vs DRtg 106.1 (-1.4) and good series vs DRtg 101.8 (-5.7).
3. Patrick Ewing 1990 - Offense + Defense, 7'1, midrange, athletic, great series vs DRtg 107.9 (-0.2) and average series vs DRtg 103.5 (-4.6).

http://bkref.com/tiny/JsISO
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#35 » by liamliam1234 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 12:37 am

freethedevil wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:Curry is already in, Giannis faltered head-to-head

Giannis faltered and was still as good as kawhi which should tell you all you need to know about who should be getting picked here.


Desperately trying to make the gap look as small as possible does not mean they were equal, nor does it change the fact that Kawhi elevated and Giannis did not.

Durant never had a run as good as Kawhi’s without Curry,

Kawhi has never had a run as good as many of durant's okc ones without a +9 defense.


Oh, yes, poor Durant, languishing on those untalented Thunder rosters.

And for per game production I would take 2017 Kawhi over most Durant ones anyway.

Durant has led better playoff offenses though, even without curry.


All by himself. No other in-his-prime, regular all-NBA, likely first-ballot hall-of-fame, MVP level point guard contributing.

Again, always says a lot when you need to hide all contrary context.

Harden never had a run as good as Kawhi’s,
By your logic? His 2019 run where he outplayed durant and curry head to head was better.


Yeah, sure seemed like Harden was outperforming them in those final couple of games, huh.

and Embiid both showcased major offensive limitations and has never led his team anywhere the way Kawhi did.

Kawhi has shown major offensive and defensive limitations. The second line is basically kawhi won, embid didn't which isn't something you're willing to apply consistently.


Oh, yes, I have been so inconsistent voting for championship winners, a game 7 Finals loser (Jerry West), two semifinals losers with historic production (Garnett and Robertson), and, now that we are basically done with the most deserving title-winners, Tracy McGrady (who had impact statistics on Giannis’s level in the regular season and maintained against a more talented and defensively dominant team in the playoffs). Maybe compared to someone who votes blindly based on what PIPM says, that might seem “inconsistent”, but for the rest of us, I think my standards have been pretty clear. Especially given that my last several votes have generally had extremely similar profiles, between Wade and West and Kobe and McGrady.

Kawhi had the most efficient high-volume scoring championship run ever,

Come back to me when you adjust for league-wide effiency.


If you think that radically changes anything, you do it.

Also lol @cherrypicking scoring.


Hahahaha, yes, points per game and true shooting, how cherrypicked. I sure twisted the data to show that result!

His defense? No stat marks him as more than the slightest of positives.


And defensive metrics are famously perfect.

His playmaking? Going by playoff assist to to ratio, passer rating, box creation, or basically anything, he's among the bottom of current superstars.


True, but his potential rivals in scoring are hardly maestros themselves.

I might care if you could show me his scoring outweighed everything else but that's hard to do when the raptors were merely a +2 offense in the playoffs and a +9 defense.


Kawhi effectively matched the scoring output of the team’s next two lead scorers combined; against Philadelphia, that was even more severe, as he had a 34.4% point share (not that I expect you to be honest about the actual level of Philadelphia’s defence in that series). Maybe if he had better playoff scorers around him, those team offensive numbers would be more palatable for you.

Harden was clearly wearing down towards the end of the rs. Hard to see that being a problem for him if he was playing on the raps instead of the rockets, but again, context is difficult to consider when you're trying to equate winning a championship with a player being the best in the league.


A. Regular season wear is a known effect. It was not a mystery to Harden. It was not a necessity that he battle for a four-seed so they could face the Warriors a round later. There are no bonus points for playoff diminishment by way of fatigue.

B. Seemed to still be a problem even on his 65-win team last year.

C. History of the league strongly suggests otherwise, as does the general result of this project. The best playoff performers tend to win. And sure, Kawhi is one of the worst of that bunch, but hey, the rest are generally accounted for.

And if fifty wins were “more than sufficient”, you would not need to continually parrot that profoundly dishonest “63-wins without Kawhi” extrapolation.

I'm doing you a favor and assuming weakened scheduling could strip that down by 13. It honestly probably doesn't and, assuming everyone stays as good as they were this season, I'd expect something similar to their 2017-2018 season which is way more than i would expect from if i took curry off the warriors, giannis off the bucks and more than what i'd expect from the rockets without harden or the 6ers without embid. Kawhi made a very good team great by moderately upgrading their offense. That's basically the bare minumim for being a superstar.


Cool, never said Kawhi matched their value in the regular season, nor do I particularly care if he does. Simply put, if Kawhi had been replaced in the playoffs with any of them, I do not believe they do as well. Especially with the acknowledgment Curry is already in. Giannis is the most interesting case, and his 2020 iteration might be a different story, but again, unlike Kawhi he caved when faced with unexpected pressure. And that matters.
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Eballa wrote:I'm saying you're wrong for valuing a style of play that led to a worse team offense
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#36 » by freethedevil » Sun Sep 8, 2019 12:41 am

liamliam1234 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:Curry is already in, Giannis faltered head-to-head

Giannis faltered and was still as good as kawhi which should tell you all you need to know about who should be getting picked here.


Desperately trying to make the gap look as small as possible does not mean they were equal, nor does it change the fact that Kawhi elevated and Giannis did not.


Elevated kawhi was as good as faltering giannis. If you have an argument for kawhi outplaying giannis in that series, make it. But don't expect me to care about ppg+ts. Giannis didn't rival kawhi's scoring? Sure. But the gap is smaller than the monstrous gap in their defense and giannis is also the better playmaker.

I don't have to "desperately try", anything that measures overall play says they were close that series. You're sticking to ppg and ts because it reamains the only justification for saying kawhi was >>giannis

Your argument is solely that kawhi comfortably outplayed giannis. Now prove it.

Hahahaha, yes, points per game and true shooting, how cherrypicked.

Are you unaware of what cherrypicking is? Cherrypicking is when you take a subset of data to draw a conclusion that requires a whole set of data. PPG and ts measures scoring exclsuively. Hence to use it to assess overall play is cherrypicking.

Find me something to say kawhi was a significantly better overall player than giannis during the series. If you can't, don't waste my time.

Simply put, if Kawhi had been replaced in the playoffs with any of them

SImply out your opinion is your opinion. That kawhi won doesn't matter, because the only thing he made noteworthy contributions to was the offense which was +2. Since a +2 offense isn't usually good enough to contend, "kawhi won" utterly fails as a compelling argument.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#37 » by liamliam1234 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 12:56 am

Giannis’s defence was good on Siakam, and I guess to a certain extent the Gasol/Ibaka tandem (not that either is a scoring powerhouse), but he utterly failed to stop Kawhi, and for all the talk of his ability to roam, he also did not disrupt Lowry or Van Vleet. Compare that to a clear and deliberate shift in defensive strategy giving Kawhi more responsibility for guarding Giannis, directly correlated with clear dips in Giannis’s performance. So no, when it mattered, I do not think the defensive gap was anywhere near as large as you want to portray it, nor would I say Giannis can claim an especially massive passing advantage considering how well Kawhi moved the ball over the four-game win-streak (especially the final two games). And yes, I would say Kawhi scoring thirty percent more on better efficiency is a suitably massive gap.

the only thing he made noteworthy contributions to was the offense which was +2. Since a +2 offense isn't usually good enough to contend, "kawhi won" utterly fails as a compelling argument.


As always, a beautiful sight when it comes right after you complain about cherrypicking and only looking at one subset of data.
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Eballa wrote:I'm saying you're wrong for valuing a style of play that led to a worse team offense
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#38 » by freethedevil » Sun Sep 8, 2019 1:20 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Giannis’s defence was good on Siakam, and I guess to a certain extent the Gasol/Ibaka tandem (not that either is a scoring powerhouse), but he utterly failed to stop Kawhi,

Man defense is a fraction of defensive value so okay. That's still far more impressive than kawhi's exploits in 3-4 man walls.
and for all the talk of his ability to roam, he also did not disrupt Lowry or Van Vleet.

jesus, are you actually equating giannis's defensive value to his man defense? :lol:

Compare that to a clear and deliberate shift in defensive strategy giving Kawhi more responsibility for guarding Giannis, directly correlated with clear dips in Giannis’s performance.
i
Kawhi had as much responsibility vs giannis as siakim did. The strategy shift which was triple teaming/quadruiple blocking his drives was applied to everyone, and kawhi's man defense was marginally better than siakim. It's clear you disproprtionately value man defense, so naturally you'd think kawhi wasn't vastly below giannis defensively.

So no, when it mattered

So when we cherrypick...
, I do not think the defensive gap was anywhere near as large as you want to portray it


One protected the rim, the other didn't. The man defense was merely big yes, the overall defensive gap was massive.
, nor would I say Giannis can claim an especially massive passing advantage considering how well Kawhi moved the ball over the four-game win-streak (especially the final two games).

If i claimed that, I might care, alas I did not.
And yes, I would say Kawhi scoring thirty percent more on better efficiency is a suitably massive gap.

Great, then you should find something that substantiates that the gap was enough for kawhi to be significantly than giannis. Or are we using the conclusion that the scoring gap was big enough to prove the scoring gap was big enough which would be circular reasoning...

the only thing he made noteworthy contributions to was the offense which was +2. Since a +2 offense isn't usually good enough to contend, "kawhi won" utterly fails as a compelling argument.


As always, a beautiful sight when it comes right after you complain about cherrypicking and only looking at one subset of data.[/quote]
If you want to say this is out of context then you have to explain how. I specifcally used context, kawhi being an offensive only star, so I'm not seeing what you're missing here.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#39 » by ardee » Sun Sep 8, 2019 5:36 am

ardee wrote:Man this is hard. Really didn't think about who I was going to vote after Kobe was in until now. Could go so many ways. Think I'll go:

1. 2015 Chris Paul

He has a really solid case as the best player in the league that year. Blake missed a bunch of games but he still led the Clippers to a 6.8 SRS and the best offense in the league. At least regular season wise it's a feat comparable to 2008 Kobe. 19-5-10 on 49-40-90, 60% TS, 26 PER, numbers are definitely there. The Spurs series was masterful and it truly marked his ascenion to Point God. I can't really put the Rockets loss on him at all, now when we averaged 26-10 efficiently for the last 3 games. The one missed game, well, if 2016 Curry is already in with 7 missed Playoff games, then that is a moot point here.

The way he controlled games this year was unreal, his BBIQ was ludricious.

2. 2008 Chris Paul

Basically just as good in every way as 2015 but less experienced and a slightly worse shooter. Raw numbers are utterly absurd (even better in 2009, which is IMO the 2nd best regular season for a PG after 2016 Curry, but of course he was terrible in the Playoffs). Absurd Playoffs too, 30.7 PER for a PG is just wtf.

3. 1990 Charles Barkley

It's clearly his peak IMO. All the numbers favor it over 1993. The main reason 1993 gets votes is those two ridiculous games 5 and 7 performances against Seattle, but I'm not putting 2016 LeBron over 2013 LeBron based on 2 games either. Dragged a very uninspiring Sixers team to the 2nd ranked offense in the league with God-like scoring and honestly pretty underrated playmaking. If he was even a Dirk-like defender he'd be in contention for a top 12 peak.


I really think 2015 CP3 had the potential to be a 2011 Dirk or 2019 Kawhi-like run if his teammates didn't falter like they did.
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Re: #22 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#40 » by No-more-rings » Sun Sep 8, 2019 6:53 am

ardee wrote:
I really think 2015 CP3 had the potential to be a 2011 Dirk or 2019 Kawhi-like run if his teammates didn't falter like they did.

This is wishful thinking at best. We’ve seen absolutely nothing in Paul’s entire career to make us think he could’ve done that.

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