How many have a logical case for GOAT?

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Possible GOATs

1-MJ
96
24%
2-LBJ
82
21%
3-KAJ
76
19%
4-Wilt
37
9%
5-Russell
62
16%
6-Shaq
8
2%
7-Duncan
20
5%
8-Magic
8
2%
9-Hakeem
3
1%
10-Other
7
2%
 
Total votes: 399

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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#101 » by bledredwine » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:43 pm

freethedevil wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
freethedevil wrote:Jordan failed more than russell did. That is emperical fact.


Not at all. He stated stepping up and winning with the least talent.


Russel's celtics had a negative srs without him...

Go ahead and name one series where Jordan didn’t step up and kick major ass. A single series.

Multiple series vs the pistons, series vs the knicks, and series vs the celtics.

You know the ones where jordan proponents start complaining about how extensively defenses schemed against him? As if that hasn't happened to other atg's? :lol:

Russell only failed to kick ass when he was injured or when facing the 60's version of the warriors, who he still beat 2/3 times(as a player coach).


You’re hilarious. Go ahead and link me to these Jordan series’ that you’re fabricating. It’s no surprise that you’d do this after your previous posts.

Come to think of it, I don’t think that I’ve seen you post credible stats or evidence in any single one of your posts. Let’s make this the first. I’ll be waiting.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#102 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:45 pm

The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#103 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:46 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Kareem scored 35 ppg on 65% TS in 1977. He also averaged 32 ppg on 61% TS in 1980. All in less efficient league and with worse team in 1977 than Kawhi in 2019.

He missed one game and he would have played in game 7 if necessary. He played better than Kawhi in the finals.

In short - Kareem was better scorer than Kawhi (by any measure), he was also better defender and even in terms of passing he was better and more impactful. What is the case for Kawhi here? Other than having better team than Kareem in 1977 or Jabbar missing one game in 1980? Kareem was better in RS and in playoffs both years than any Kawhi year.


Kareem never had the carry job that Kawhi did, he was playing with another superstar in Magic. Kawhi has played with Aldridge and Lowry. Huge huge gap there. 1980s Kareem was spoiled like 2017-2019 Durant, he played with a player arguably better than him.

Kawhi 2017 = Kareem 1980

Both couldn't close for their teams.

Kawhi 2019 > Kareem 1982

You are underrating 2017 and 2019 Leonard defense. He was still great defensively but just coasted a little in regular season 2019 due to coming off injury. 2019 playoff Kawhi defense I feel was superior to 1980s Kareem defense. Kareem was never a great athlete but as he aged he became an average athlete, I've always thought his defense in 1980s looked overrated and he just coasted a lot.

Wow, there is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, Kareem played 3 seasons post merger without Magic. You know that merger happened in 1976, not in 1979 right? He had far worse team in 1977 than Kawhi ever had at any point of his career and he averaged 35 ppg on 65% TS in playoffs, beating very good Warriors team and losing to future champions. This is a carryjob, his guards couldn't even bring the ball to halfcourt at some points. Kawhi's Raptors look like superteam compared to 1977 Lakers.

Secondly, if you want to compare their title runs, then Magic in 1980 wasn't a superstar. He was very talented rookie who didn't realize yet how to maximize his impact. Johnson from 1980 wasn't close to prime Magic, he wasn't elite playmaker yet and he couldn't shoot (his improvement in 1982 is huge in that aspect). He was very good player who played outstanding game 6, but that doesn't make him superstar.

Also, I don't understand why you compare 1982 Kareem to peak Leonard. He was 34 years old at that point, I hope that Leonard is better than 34-35 years old 7'2 center.

2019 Kawhi < 1979 Kareem = 1980 Kareem < 1977 Kareem

Lastly, calling Kareem "never a great athlete" makes me sure that you never saw 1970s Kareem, even on highlights. Dude was 7'2 freak who moved like a SF. He was very quick, had elite coordination and spring legs. I've never seen as nimble 7'2 player as Kareem, he was more agile than most 6'10 centers. Remeber, the merger happened in 1976, Kareem was still in his physical prime in 1977. He was far better athlete than Kawhi at any point of his career. He was also far better defender than Kawhi at any point of his career. I don't doubt Kawhi's defensive ability, he's damn good defender especially when he tried. Kareem was one of the best rim protectors ever in his prime though and he was quick enough to bother perimeter players on switches. Very few players had such an impact on opponents, he could really shut down the paint. That's the impact Kawhi can't touch even at his best. I'd probably take all Kareem seasons until 1984 defensively over Kawhi's best defensive season and that's definitely not 2019. Yeah, when Kareem was over 36 he wasn't great athlete anymore and he coasted defensively but that doesn't make his 1977-80 years any worse.

Kareem during Showtime era (1982-89) was definitely worse than peak Kawhi but you forget that he played a lot more seasons after the merger than that. Kawhi can't touch late 70s Jabbar.


Kareem played 11, 3, 8 for his playoff runs than in 1980 he didn't close out the final game. None of those compare to Kawhi's 2019 playoff run. The closest is 1980 and he didn't close the most important game (close out game). Magic Johnson in 1980 was also still much better than Lowry can ever be.

As far as athleticism, we disagree on that. I think kareem just has good post moves and good touch around the basket for a 7"2 guy and thats what made him a great scorer. Kareem is like Durant or dirk in the sense that he just gets in his sweet spot and shoots over you. Kareem isn't dunking over guys like Giannis or Embiid like kawhi is. Kareem has athleticism of a pau gasol. Kareem is mobile for his size but athletic? No way. Kawhi has elite athleticism and is pretty much in the 2nd tier of great athletes where only guys like jordan pippen wade Westbrook beat him. Kawhi athleticism is underrated, he can explode and erupt at any time.

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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#104 » by freethedevil » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:48 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron

KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#105 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Sep 8, 2019 10:53 pm

freethedevil wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron

KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...

KAJ's high school/college/NBA resume dwarfs pretty much everyone's.

And nothing odd about looking at aspects of the game. All these players excelled by having teams built around these strengths.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#106 » by penbeast0 » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:16 am

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


I would disagree with a few of these:

GOAT legacy -- Russell (titles are the ultimate goal of the game)
GOAT publicity -- MJ (created a brand like on one before or since -- though that may be what you mean by legacy)
GOAT skills -- MJ or LeBron
GOAT individual dominance -- Wilt
GOAT passer -- Stockton (though Magic was better overall)
GOAT talent -- Wilt
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#107 » by euroleague » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:36 am

6 - Wilt, MJ, Kareem , Shaq, Bird, Magic
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#108 » by Ainosterhaspie » Mon Sep 9, 2019 3:23 am

Guys I voted for and the reason they have a decent argument for GOAT:

MJ. No explanation needed.
Kareem. Longevity.
LeBron. Longevity/peak/prime/stats combo.
Russell. Titles.
Wilt. Stats.
My GOATs 1.LBJ/2.Jordan/3.KAJ/4.Duncan/5.Magic
Russell and Wilt grandfathered in at 6 and 7.

Yes I watched Jordan live, started paying attention to basketball in the bad boys era.

I respect Jordan way more now than I did when he played.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#109 » by HeartBreakKid » Mon Sep 9, 2019 3:28 am

unbias fan trying to shoe horn kobe in here.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#110 » by Samurai » Mon Sep 9, 2019 3:45 am

AMW27 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
AMW27 wrote:kareem realistically could've wom with those 1978 and 179 teams.. Also the early 1970s.

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I agree that he underperformed a bit in 1978 playoffs but 1979? He averaged 29-12-5 on 62% TS against the best defense in the league. The reason why Lakers lost is offensive rebounding - Lakers forwards got destroyed in that aspect (almost 7 offensive rebounds per game for Shelton and Silas) along with rebounding domination of Gus and Dennis. That's not Kareem's fault - he had over 10 defensive rebounds per game in that series and Sikma didn't do anything relevant on offensive glass. In next year Lakers did far better job on the glass and they reversed the result with Kareem playing around the same.

I also disagree with early 70s - in 1970 he played against much better Knicks team and he averaged 34 ppg against them. In 1972 he lost Oscar in the WCF and he still made Bucks competitive averaging 34-18-5 and almost his efficiency wasn't the best, he faced one of the best teams of all-time with Wilt Chamberlain and without his main playmaker. In 1974 he led his team to 7 games loss against the Celtics while averaging 33-12-5 against Dave Cowens and winning game 6 by himself.

The only two times when Kareem underperformed in the playoffs in his prime were 1973 (against GOAT post defender Nate the Great) and in 1978 (in three games series). That's not more than any other GOAT candidate, even Duncan (my favorite player of all-times) has quite a few underperformings.
Those late 1970 teams(78, 79) he shouldve had the top seed with those teams. He was capable of winning with those teams.

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Just curious - did you actually watch the 78 and 79 Lakers or are you just looking at their roster and stats? They were a classic example of a team that tried to put names together that should not be on the same team. The biggest blunder, which if you recall was pointed out by several media sources at the time, was acquiring Adrian Dantley. Dantley was an outstanding offensive scorer...in the low post. He was not an outside shooting threat from the perimeter. So for him to be most effective, the Lakers needed to post him up down low and move Kareem out to the high post. Spell that M-I-S-T-A-K-E (not my wording - you probably remember the same article saying that at that time). But the point is that you don't take arguably the greatest low post player in history and move him out of the post to make room for Dantley.

Next mistake: they traded away Kermit Washington. If you remember the tone at that time, they felt they had no choice given the lack of support Kermit received from the team in the aftermath of the Tomjanovich incident. But Kareem himself said that he was much more active defensively when he had Kermit there because it allowed Kareem to be all over the place and jump out to defend on the perimeter since he knew Kermit could clean up the boards. Without Kermit, the Lakers had to go with Don Ford at the 4. Remember Ford was known derisively as "the power forward without the power". Ford was a terrible rebounder and it allowed other teams to beat up the Lakers on the glass; if Kareem didn't get the rebound, the Lakers were not getting the ball. They also had Jamaal Wilkes, a 6-6, 190 pound beanpole who was also miscast as a PF since Dantley was the SF. Wilkes would eventually become a very solid player in the 80's after Dantley was traded and he could go back to his SF position, but that is not relevant for a discussion of the 78 and 79 teams.

Then we have the fondness for big names who were no longer stars: Lou Hudson and Charlie Scott. Scott had a HoF career and averaged over 24 ppg....from 73 to 75. Unfortunately we are talking about 78 and 79. The Lakers rolled the dice hoping that Scott would be the same player he was a few years earlier; Lakers lost that bet. Sweet Lou had one of the smoothest jumpers I've ever seen....in the early 70's. He was a 6-time All Star from 69-74. Unfortunately, this was 78 and 79, the last two seasons for Lou's career and he was clearly on his last legs. Even in his prime, Hudson didn't earn his paycheck with his defense and at the end of his career, he had trouble keeping up with his own shadow. Neither Scott nor Dantley were great, or even good in Dantley's case, on defense. Noticing a trend? Other than Kareem, and without Kermit, who exactly was going to play defense on those teams? The Lakers allowed 104 ppg in 77, good for 4th best in the league. But again, they had Kermit for over half that season as well as Lucius Allen. Without them, they dropped to giving up 108 ppg in 78 and 110 ppg in 79. Kareem did his part: he was All-Defensive 2nd team and finished 2nd in blocks in 78 and All-Defensive first team in 79, leading the league in blocks. But replacing Kermit and Lucius with the aforementioned players clearly negatively impacted their defense and on the boards. In 78, the Lakers were 16th in the league (out of 22 teams) in rebounding and in 79 they dropped to 20th. This dismal rebounding picture was despite Kareem finishing 7th in rebounding in 78 and 3rd in 79. Again, if Kareem didn't make the defensive play or grab the rebound, it was unlikely any of his teammates would do so.

This is not the recipe for building a team to win a title. And these shortcomings were fairly apparent when watching them play, hence my question about if you actually saw that team play at the time.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#111 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 4:13 am

penbeast0 wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


I would disagree with a few of these:

GOAT legacy -- Russell (titles are the ultimate goal of the game)
GOAT publicity -- MJ (created a brand like on one before or since -- though that may be what you mean by legacy)
GOAT skills -- MJ or LeBron
GOAT individual dominance -- Wilt
GOAT passer -- Stockton (though Magic was better overall)
GOAT talent -- Wilt

Fair enough. Those are certainly good choices too. But only makes the idea of GOATs even more dubious. There's no consensus picks for pretty much any category, much less overall.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#112 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:28 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Kareem never had the carry job that Kawhi did, he was playing with another superstar in Magic. Kawhi has played with Aldridge and Lowry. Huge huge gap there. 1980s Kareem was spoiled like 2017-2019 Durant, he played with a player arguably better than him.

Kawhi 2017 = Kareem 1980

Both couldn't close for their teams.

Kawhi 2019 > Kareem 1982

You are underrating 2017 and 2019 Leonard defense. He was still great defensively but just coasted a little in regular season 2019 due to coming off injury. 2019 playoff Kawhi defense I feel was superior to 1980s Kareem defense. Kareem was never a great athlete but as he aged he became an average athlete, I've always thought his defense in 1980s looked overrated and he just coasted a lot.

Wow, there is so much wrong in this post that I don't know where to start.

Firstly, Kareem played 3 seasons post merger without Magic. You know that merger happened in 1976, not in 1979 right? He had far worse team in 1977 than Kawhi ever had at any point of his career and he averaged 35 ppg on 65% TS in playoffs, beating very good Warriors team and losing to future champions. This is a carryjob, his guards couldn't even bring the ball to halfcourt at some points. Kawhi's Raptors look like superteam compared to 1977 Lakers.

Secondly, if you want to compare their title runs, then Magic in 1980 wasn't a superstar. He was very talented rookie who didn't realize yet how to maximize his impact. Johnson from 1980 wasn't close to prime Magic, he wasn't elite playmaker yet and he couldn't shoot (his improvement in 1982 is huge in that aspect). He was very good player who played outstanding game 6, but that doesn't make him superstar.

Also, I don't understand why you compare 1982 Kareem to peak Leonard. He was 34 years old at that point, I hope that Leonard is better than 34-35 years old 7'2 center.

2019 Kawhi < 1979 Kareem = 1980 Kareem < 1977 Kareem

Lastly, calling Kareem "never a great athlete" makes me sure that you never saw 1970s Kareem, even on highlights. Dude was 7'2 freak who moved like a SF. He was very quick, had elite coordination and spring legs. I've never seen as nimble 7'2 player as Kareem, he was more agile than most 6'10 centers. Remeber, the merger happened in 1976, Kareem was still in his physical prime in 1977. He was far better athlete than Kawhi at any point of his career. He was also far better defender than Kawhi at any point of his career. I don't doubt Kawhi's defensive ability, he's damn good defender especially when he tried. Kareem was one of the best rim protectors ever in his prime though and he was quick enough to bother perimeter players on switches. Very few players had such an impact on opponents, he could really shut down the paint. That's the impact Kawhi can't touch even at his best. I'd probably take all Kareem seasons until 1984 defensively over Kawhi's best defensive season and that's definitely not 2019. Yeah, when Kareem was over 36 he wasn't great athlete anymore and he coasted defensively but that doesn't make his 1977-80 years any worse.

Kareem during Showtime era (1982-89) was definitely worse than peak Kawhi but you forget that he played a lot more seasons after the merger than that. Kawhi can't touch late 70s Jabbar.


Kareem played 11, 3, 8 for his playoff runs than in 1980 he didn't close out the final game. None of those compare to Kawhi's 2019 playoff run. The closest is 1980 and he didn't close the most important game (close out game). Magic Johnson in 1980 was also still much better than Lowry can ever be.

As far as athleticism, we disagree on that. I think kareem just has good post moves and good touch around the basket for a 7"2 guy and thats what made him a great scorer. Kareem is like Durant or dirk in the sense that he just gets in his sweet spot and shoots over you. Kareem isn't dunking over guys like Giannis or Embiid like kawhi is. Kareem has athleticism of a pau gasol. Kareem is mobile for his size but athletic? No way. Kawhi has elite athleticism and is pretty much in the 2nd tier of great athletes where only guys like jordan pippen wade Westbrook beat him. Kawhi athleticism is underrated, he can explode and erupt at any time.

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Kareem with athleticism of Pau Gasol? Watch some basketball before making such a ridiculous statements. Kareem didn't dunk on guys like Giannis or Embiid, he dunked on Wilt:





Seriously, if you truly believe that Kareem was Pau Gasol level athlete, you have to watch a lot more 1970s Kareem. Based on what you said here so far, I wouldn't be surprised if you have seen only mid-80s Kareem.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#113 » by The-Power » Mon Sep 9, 2019 9:05 am

70sFan wrote:Kareem scored 35 ppg on 65% TS in 1977. He also averaged 32 ppg on 61% TS in 1980. All in less efficient league and with worse team in 1977 than Kawhi in 2019.

[...]

In short - Kareem was better scorer than Kawhi (by any measure)

You cannot note the league average efficiency to prop up Kareem's scoring but then completely disregard pace and use raw numbers instead. Note that I am firmly on the Kareem > Leonard side of the debate, but that was disingenuous (especially with the second part in brackets).
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#114 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 9:20 am

The-Power wrote:
70sFan wrote:Kareem scored 35 ppg on 65% TS in 1977. He also averaged 32 ppg on 61% TS in 1980. All in less efficient league and with worse team in 1977 than Kawhi in 2019.

[...]

In short - Kareem was better scorer than Kawhi (by any measure)

You cannot note the league average efficiency to prop up Kareem's scoring but then completely disregard pace and use raw numbers instead. Note that I am firmly on the Kareem > Leonard side of the debate, but that was disingenuous (especially with the second part in brackets).

The difference in pace is very small though. Besides, there is no linear corelation between pace and stars production. Then you have to point out minutes played too and Jabbar played 2 mpg more in 1980 and 3 mpg more in 1977 than Kawhi did in 2019 playoffs. That's more significant than 4 possessions more per game.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#115 » by Baski » Mon Sep 9, 2019 1:43 pm

bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#116 » by AMW27 » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:04 pm

Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm supposed you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.
My top 3 would be Jordan, Russell, Duncan.
How could this be ridiculous?

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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#117 » by KTM_2813 » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:19 pm

Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.


I've seen a few people predict that LeBron's reputation will decline after he retires, but I find that kind of hard to believe. The guy has both [1] a genuinely top-caliber resume and [2] one of the most viscerally impressive highlight packages of incredible performances and moments that the game has ever seen. Those are the kind of things that will live on for a long time.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#118 » by An Unbiased Fan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 2:41 pm

KTM_2813 wrote:
Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.


I've seen a few people predict that LeBron's reputation will decline after he retires, but I find that kind of hard to believe. The guy has both [1] a genuinely top-caliber resume and [2] one of the most viscerally impressive highlight packages of incredible performances and moments that the game has ever seen. Those are the kind of things that will live on for a long time.

Winning is the only thing that really lasts. Just look at Wilt who was the consensus GOAT til the 1980's. Lebron has great numbers, but the big problem for him has always been the lackluster results he's had with contending teams over the years. The 09 & 10 teams that lost to inferior squads, the 2011 debacle, and the lukewarm results with big 3 teams he's had since going to Miami. Not making the playoffs once he went to the WC only drove that point home for many.

I mean we just saw Kawhi win with a non super team, aka what we used to see before the Heatles brought about the superteam era. It's funny how when you go to a peak player discussion, people almost always pick....the season a player won the title. 11' Dirk got selected in the peaks project, even though 06 & 07 Dirk were superior as players. What Lebron does with AD in LA will determine alot about his legacy going forward
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#119 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 4:48 pm

Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.


Many get the wrong impression of me. Jordan comparisons to me are silly, which is why many will see me as biased. But frankly, I just see.... I see the way Chris Paul plays and it doesn't make sense that he'd be ranked among the greatest point guards, so I rag on Chris Paul with no agenda or "biased" reason. I see Lebron play and see one of the best to ever do it, but someone with too many vulnerabilities and lack of stepping it up in important moments to be in GOAT contention. When Jordan played, there was no other player on the court who was close, period. Realgm tries to make it a habit of re-inventing that and bringing others to his level, but he was on another level, period, and many superstars would say as much. You can't say the same about anyone over the last 10 years.

So who was on that same tier of greatness? We can definitely say that Russell was. We can say that Kareem completely dominated as well. We can say that statistically, Wilt did... and he's the biggest question mark of all.

Lebron is without a doubt (to me) a top 5 player. I'd draft him over Magic and Bird, though I should mention it's due to his longevity. I was a big Lebron fan back when I lived in Cleveland.

What I can't do is conform to the hype that comes along with certain fanbases dominating forums, this forum's Lebron fanaticism (alongside Dirk, Duncan, and KG) being a great example. Lebron's popularity will go down in the next 5 years as his relevance diminishes, and it will go down significantly on realgm because fans of other dominating players will be joining realgm. Don't be surprised in even one or two years if someone's fanbase (say Giannis) is drawing Lebron comparisons that frankly, are full of crap. This is the way it works for any great player. If someone DOES have a compatible dominance to Jordan, I'll be the first to admit it. When Steph had his ridiculous regular season, I was starting to tell my friends that with excellent defense, it'd be Jordan'esque.

Anyway, if realgm had been around during Jordan, the number of fans would have been obnoxious as well. If you're unsure what I'm talking about, I encourage you to search old posts comparing Jordan and Kobe and look at the percentage of fans who voted for Kobe against Jordan- It's staggering. Still, Lebron's without a doubt the best of his generation. I'm not taking that away.

That said, time diminishes legacy over and over again. Just like the Titanic, we won't be talking as much about Lebron in 5-10 years as we are now. Even last year, people were quick to call Kawhi better than Lebron (funny) because he had an excellent playoffs. So yes, his place in the all-time rankings will drop compared to what you're seeing on this forum. It won't be significant, but just like Kobe, I'll be looking back and saying "I told you so" to fans. Jordan left a legacy that is still intact, which is remarkable, because Jordan is no exception to this axiom either. His legacy is certainly less vivid than it was as he was playing and retired.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#120 » by freethedevil » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:06 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:
Baski wrote:I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.


I've seen a few people predict that LeBron's reputation will decline after he retires, but I find that kind of hard to believe. The guy has both [1] a genuinely top-caliber resume and [2] one of the most viscerally impressive highlight packages of incredible performances and moments that the game has ever seen. Those are the kind of things that will live on for a long time.


First off wilt was never consensus goat. Russell was widely understood as the more imapctful player of the time and kept being so throuout their careers. Wilt's conversation started after box stats were popularized and there wasn't much else available footage/data to remember what russell did, but since then that's been shut down with newer datathat reflect russell's superior impact over the course of his career.

Winning is the only thing that really lasts.


Huh? Since when. Russell has been passed by mj, kareem and lebron in the eyes of most. Messi was seen as someone who never won when it mattered and 4 years later he's consensus goat despite failing to win anything post 2014 and his own contemporary three peating and winning multiple international titles.

You are welcome to use whatever narrow criteria and selective filters arrives you at the conclusion jordan has an argument and lebron doesn't, but there is no precedent for that criteria being the one that ages better than anyone else's. The only widely held goat who won the most is tom brady, and he also happened to have the best longevity, and a case for best peak and a case for best resume.

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