How many have a logical case for GOAT?

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Possible GOATs

1-MJ
96
24%
2-LBJ
82
21%
3-KAJ
76
19%
4-Wilt
37
9%
5-Russell
62
16%
6-Shaq
8
2%
7-Duncan
20
5%
8-Magic
8
2%
9-Hakeem
3
1%
10-Other
7
2%
 
Total votes: 399

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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#121 » by G35 » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:33 pm

freethedevil wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron

KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...


As Unbiased said KAJ's resume absolutely destroys anyone else's.

No one else has had the level of pure dominance at every level of basketball that Kareem has.

This is a not even close situation.

If you want to make it just about the NBA, fine there are arguments, but overall basketball its Kareem and then everyone else......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#122 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:40 pm

G35 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron

KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...


As Unbiased said KAJ's resume absolutely destroys anyone else's.

No one else has had the level of pure dominance at every level of basketball that Kareem has.

This is a not even close situation.

If you want to make it just about the NBA, fine there are arguments, but overall basketball its Kareem and then everyone else......


This is one player who I always entertain in GOAT debate vs. Jordan. I totally get it, when someone chooses KAJ.

That said, Jordan and Russell are the two players who have comparable resumes to KAJ. His isn't clearly better than either. These 3 have by far the greatest resumes. If you take away longevity, Jordan has everyone handily. But longevity is important in it's own right. If you prioritize winning championships, Russell creams them. That said, he did have to beat half the number of teams and far fewer games in the playoffs. Still, point being - all 3 have the greatest resumes.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kareem_abdul_jabbar_vs_michael_jordan.htm
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#123 » by thebigbird » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:43 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#124 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:44 pm

thebigbird wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.


Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#125 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:49 pm

bledredwine wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.


Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.

Well, it all depends on what you call "skills". By using typical definition (skills as an ability to score in variety of ways and using finesse) then Kobe is more skilled than Magic for example, but counting passing and versatility Magic is more skilled than Kobe in my opinion.

Using typical skills=scoring skills, Dantley may be the most skilled player ever. I don't think that's the best definition though.

Larry Bird is actually a player who is extremely skilled by any definition. So is Oscar, who I consider more skilled than Jordan (but not as good overall).
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#126 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:52 pm

70sFan wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.


Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.

Well, it all depends on what you call "skills". By using typical definition (skills as an ability to score in variety of ways and using finesse) then Kobe is more skilled than Magic for example, but counting passing and versatility Magic is more skilled than Kobe in my opinion.

Using typical skills=scoring skills, Dantley may be the most skilled player ever. I don't think that's the best definition though.

Larry Bird is actually a player who is extremely skilled by any definition. So is Oscar, who I consider more skilled than Jordan (but not as good overall).


Good call on Bird. He's easily in top 5 most skilled range, probably top 3. I'll add Hakeem to that equation for a big. I'll have to watch more Oscar, but he doesn't strike me as more skilled, especially when it comes to dribbling (so much one handed dribbling, though I know it's reflective of the times). What do you consider him more skilled at? I will say that I've been impressed by how "tight" or concise his game looks.

I consider skills all-encompassing. Fundamentals - footwork, ability to dribble, passing ability, defensive hand in the passing lane, quick lateral movement. Everything that requires execution, really.

Anyway, you may find it ironic since Oscar (and Jordan) are known for versatility, but I don't find Oscar's skillset nearly as versatile as Jordan's, hence why he wasn't able to perform all of the bizarre dribbles, acrobatic moves, etc. I actually believe that it's Jordan's insane control and fundamentals that enabled him to do the seemingly bizarre circus shots and plays that he made. But most of the time, he controlled these crazy plays and circus shots. Those are the skills at work, IMO.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#127 » by G35 » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:54 pm

bledredwine wrote:
G35 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...


As Unbiased said KAJ's resume absolutely destroys anyone else's.

No one else has had the level of pure dominance at every level of basketball that Kareem has.

This is a not even close situation.

If you want to make it just about the NBA, fine there are arguments, but overall basketball its Kareem and then everyone else......


This is one player who I always entertain in GOAT debate vs. Jordan. I totally get it, when someone chooses KAJ.

That said, Jordan and Russell are the two players who have comparable resumes to KAJ. His isn't clearly better than either. These 3 have by far the greatest resumes. If you take away longevity, Jordan has everyone handily. But longevity is important in it's own right. If you prioritize winning championships, Russell creams them. That said, he did have to beat half the number of teams and far fewer games in the playoffs. Still, point being - all 3 have the greatest resumes.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kareem_abdul_jabbar_vs_michael_jordan.htm




Yes, when you take in account only the NBA yes.

But if you take in account high school and college and the NBA.

Its not close.


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.; April 16, 1947) is an American retired professional basketball player who played 20 seasons in the National Basketball Association (NBA) for the Milwaukee Bucks and the Los Angeles Lakers. During his career as a center, Abdul-Jabbar was a record six-time NBA Most Valuable Player (MVP), a record 19-time NBA All-Star, a 15-time All-NBA selection, and an 11-time NBA All-Defensive Team member. A member of six NBA championship teams as a player and two more as an assistant coach, Abdul-Jabbar twice was voted NBA Finals MVP. In 1996, he was honored as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. NBA coach Pat Riley and players Isiah Thomas and Julius Erving have called him the greatest basketball player of all time.

After winning 71 consecutive basketball games on his high school team in New York City, Alcindor was recruited by Jerry Norman, the assistant coach of UCLA,[6] where he played for coach John Wooden[7] on three consecutive national championship teams and was a record three-time MVP of the NCAA Tournament. Drafted with the first overall pick by the one-season-old Bucks franchise in the 1969 NBA draft, Alcindor spent six seasons in Milwaukee. After leading the Bucks to its first NBA championship at age 24 in 1971, he took the Muslim name Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Using his trademark "skyhook" shot, he established himself as one of the league's top scorers. In 1975, he was traded to the Lakers, with whom he played the final 14 seasons of his career and won five additional NBA championships. Abdul-Jabbar's contributions were a key component in the "Showtime" era of Lakers basketball. Over his 20-year NBA career, his teams succeeded in making the playoffs 18 times and got past the first round 14 times; his teams reached the NBA Finals on 10 occasions.

At the time of his retirement at age 42 in 1989, Abdul-Jabbar was the NBA's all-time leader in points scored (38,387), games played (1,560), minutes played (57,446), field goals made (15,837), field goal attempts (28,307), blocked shots (3,189), defensive rebounds (9,394), career wins (1,074), and personal fouls (4,657). He remains the all-time leader in points scored and career wins. He is ranked third all-time in both rebounds and blocked shots. In 2007, ESPN voted him the greatest center of all time,[8] in 2008, they named him the "greatest player in college basketball history",[9] and in 2016, they named him the second best player in NBA history (behind Michael Jordan).[10] Abdul-Jabbar has also been an actor, a basketball coach, and a best-selling author.[11][12] In 2012, he was selected by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to be a U.S. global cultural ambassador.[13] In 2016, President Barack Obama awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom.



The NBA GOAT is subjective, but the greatest basketball player ever is clearly Kareem......
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#128 » by thebigbird » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:57 pm

bledredwine wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron


In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.


Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.

No he's not. Kobe never shot over 47% in a single season. More skilled than LeBron who averages more points on a higher percentage than Kobe, while also being a much better passer? No chance.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#129 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 5:58 pm

thebigbird wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
thebigbird wrote:
In no way, shape, or form does Kobe have the GOAT skills. The only thing he is GOAT at is missing shots - more misses than anyone else in NBA history.


Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.

No he's not. Kobe never shot over 47% in a single season. More skilled than LeBron who averages more points on a higher percentage than Kobe, while also being a much better passer? No chance.


Oh, ok. I see why you're degrading Kobe now. The Lakers icon made me believe that you were an actual fan who didn't believe that Kobe wasn't one of the most skilled of all time. But now I get it.

:thumbsup: no bias there

Using efficiency as an argument of skillset is ridiculous. You're literally addressing one skill - hitting shots. And it's not just hitting shots. This is Kobe taking all sorts of crazy fadeaways. How would Lebron fare if he took a bunch of crazy midrange shots that he had smaller chance of making, not to mention in an era without such spread courts due to 3 ball shooting?

Anyway, I won't continue this because it'll for sure go nowhere, but I don't think that you know what "skills" implies. Are you also going to tell me that Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady and Derrick Rose weren't skilled because they're less efficient?
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#130 » by Baski » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:42 pm

bledredwine wrote:
Baski wrote:
bledredwine wrote:Jordan, KAJ, Russell are the only three. Anyone else looks ridiculous to me, unless someone claims Wilt is since he’s a question mark.

The next tier - Wilt, Lebron, Bird, Magic, maybe Hakeem.

This poll is going to change significantly for Lebron (downwards) in the next five years and KAJ won’t just be equal but quite a bit ahead, as he should be, much like Kobe’s realgm fan base changed when he became obsolete to current events.

I'm suprised you have Lebron so high. But curious what would make him drop in the next five years.


Many get the wrong impression of me. Jordan comparisons to me are silly, which is why many will see me as biased. But frankly, I just see.... I see the way Chris Paul plays and it doesn't make sense that he'd be ranked among the greatest point guards, so I rag on Chris Paul with no agenda or "biased" reason. I see Lebron play and see one of the best to ever do it, but someone with too many vulnerabilities and lack of stepping it up in important moments to be in GOAT contention. When Jordan played, there was no other player on the court who was close, period. Realgm tries to make it a habit of re-inventing that and bringing others to his level, but he was on another level, period, and many superstars would say as much. You can't say the same about anyone over the last 10 years.

So who was on that same tier of greatness? We can definitely say that Russell was. We can say that Kareem completely dominated as well. We can say that statistically, Wilt did... and he's the biggest question mark of all.

Lebron is without a doubt (to me) a top 5 player. I'd draft him over Magic and Bird, though I should mention it's due to his longevity. I was a big Lebron fan back when I lived in Cleveland.

What I can't do is conform to the hype that comes along with certain fanbases dominating forums, this forum's Lebron fanaticism (alongside Dirk, Duncan, and KG) being a great example. Lebron's popularity will go down in the next 5 years as his relevance diminishes, and it will go down significantly on realgm because fans of other dominating players will be joining realgm. Don't be surprised in even one or two years if someone's fanbase (say Giannis) is drawing Lebron comparisons that frankly, are full of crap. This is the way it works for any great player. If someone DOES have a compatible dominance to Jordan, I'll be the first to admit it. When Steph had his ridiculous regular season, I was starting to tell my friends that with excellent defense, it'd be Jordan'esque.

Anyway, if realgm had been around during Jordan, the number of fans would have been obnoxious as well. If you're unsure what I'm talking about, I encourage you to search old posts comparing Jordan and Kobe and look at the percentage of fans who voted for Kobe against Jordan- It's staggering. Still, Lebron's without a doubt the best of his generation. I'm not taking that away.

That said, time diminishes legacy over and over again. Just like the Titanic, we won't be talking as much about Lebron in 5-10 years as we are now. Even last year, people were quick to call Kawhi better than Lebron (funny) because he had an excellent playoffs. So yes, his place in the all-time rankings will drop compared to what you're seeing on this forum. It won't be significant, but just like Kobe, I'll be looking back and saying "I told you so" to fans. Jordan left a legacy that is still intact, which is remarkable, because Jordan is no exception to this axiom either. His legacy is certainly less vivid than it was as he was playing and retired.

I kinda see the thing with Jordan. When he played, there really was nobody close to him. It's a level of dominance few players ever reach.
With Kobe though, it was sort of foreshadowed that he'd drop. You just had to observe how his career went. Most of the people who rank Lebron over Kobe are old enough to have watched Kobe's rise, and for most of them, Lebron surpassed him after playing 7 less seasons. He just wasn't that GOATworthy. For Lebron, he's done so much and been the best for so long. The thing that stands out about him is that he's been so good for so long, that he defines the NBA for most people. For example, Zion was 3 when Lebron got drafted and had already been heralded as the next GOAT (meaning that growing up, he was hearing about this Lebron kid), 9 when he won his first MVP, and now that he's a rookie, Lebron's still at the top of the league. Lebron is the NBA for that generation of players. It's insane and totally abnormal for pretty much any player ever. That kind of sustained excellence is what will keep him relevant for decades. I mean look at the size of that highlight reel :o .

I dunno I thought you had him really low because the way you speak about him compared to MJ, it makes no sense for him to be anywhere near MJ, so 5th is pretty surprising.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#131 » by Baski » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:49 pm

freethedevil wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
KTM_2813 wrote:
I've seen a few people predict that LeBron's reputation will decline after he retires, but I find that kind of hard to believe. The guy has both [1] a genuinely top-caliber resume and [2] one of the most viscerally impressive highlight packages of incredible performances and moments that the game has ever seen. Those are the kind of things that will live on for a long time.


First off wilt was never consensus goat. Russell was widely understood as the more imapctful player of the time and kept being so throuout their careers. Wilt's conversation started after box stats were popularized and there wasn't much else available footage/data to remember what russell did, but since then that's been shut down with newer datathat reflect russell's superior impact over the course of his career.

Winning is the only thing that really lasts.


Huh? Since when. Russell has been passed by mj, kareem and lebron in the eyes of most. Messi was seen as someone who never won when it mattered and 4 years later he's consensus goat despite failing to win anything post 2014 and his own contemporary three peating and winning multiple international titles.

You are welcome to use whatever narrow criteria and selective filters arrives you at the conclusion jordan has an argument and lebron doesn't, but there is no precedent for that criteria being the one that ages better than anyone else's. The only widely held goat who won the most is tom brady, and he also happened to have the best longevity, and a case for best peak and a case for best resume.

Messi being a choke artist is a recent thing. He won plenty and continues to win the odd trophy at least once a year. At his peak we knew we were watching the greatest to ever play, it was just the longevity that was lacking. Same thing with Jordan by 1991. Messi's resume up to 2015 is GOATworthy by itself.

He's turned into quite the choker though I gotta say. Pretty sad.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#132 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 9, 2019 7:22 pm

bledredwine wrote:
70sFan wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
Bullcrap.

Kobe fans drove me nuts, but he's a top 2 most skilled player all time next to Jordan, no doubt. He has some of the best fundamentals and footwork that I've seen. No one today really compares.

Well, it all depends on what you call "skills". By using typical definition (skills as an ability to score in variety of ways and using finesse) then Kobe is more skilled than Magic for example, but counting passing and versatility Magic is more skilled than Kobe in my opinion.

Using typical skills=scoring skills, Dantley may be the most skilled player ever. I don't think that's the best definition though.

Larry Bird is actually a player who is extremely skilled by any definition. So is Oscar, who I consider more skilled than Jordan (but not as good overall).


Good call on Bird. He's easily in top 5 most skilled range, probably top 3. I'll add Hakeem to that equation for a big. I'll have to watch more Oscar, but he doesn't strike me as more skilled, especially when it comes to dribbling (so much one handed dribbling, though I know it's reflective of the times). What do you consider him more skilled at? I will say that I've been impressed by how "tight" or concise his game looks.

I consider skills all-encompassing. Fundamentals - footwork, ability to dribble, passing ability, defensive hand in the passing lane, quick lateral movement. Everything that requires execution, really.

Anyway, you may find it ironic since Oscar (and Jordan) are known for versatility, but I don't find Oscar's skillset nearly as versatile as Jordan's, hence why he wasn't able to perform all of the bizarre dribbles, acrobatic moves, etc. I actually believe that it's Jordan's insane control and fundamentals that enabled him to do the seemingly bizarre circus shots and plays that he made. But most of the time, he controlled these crazy plays and circus shots. Those are the skills at work, IMO.


His dribbling looks unimpressive because he couldn't do things players from 1980s and on have been doing. Rules didn't allow that, that's why his dribbling looks very simple. He still had killer crossover and could do all behind the backs and hesitation moves, he did that and it worked for him perfectly.

Oscar had amazing midrange game, the level of difficulty of some of his fadeaways and pull ups is ridiculous. In this aspect he's quite comparable to older Jordan who didn't have enough athleticism to find easy separation and instead forced tons of contested jumpshots that was easy for him. The same applies to Oscar, he did that without any problems.

Oscar had extremely efficient high post game too, also very similar to Jordan. He didn't use all of the fancy footwork because traveling was called more strictly back then, but when you watch him you can see a lot of subtle head fakes, hesitations and shimmy moves. It's often not visible at first look, but when you watch him in slow motion you should really appreciate his abilities.

Oscar was also extremely good at using his body and I consider that more of a skill than acrobatic moves. Jordan's insane ability to hit circus shots needs a lot of skill, but it's still mostly due to his athleticism. I think that watching someone like Dantley finishing over 7 footer in the post requires more skill than Jordan jumping over two defenders and making reverse layup.

Oscar was also better passer than Jordan and this one isn't close to me. Maybe it's more because of his mindset, but Jordan was not the floor general Oscar was. I'm not talking about assists numbers or highlight passes, but regular playmaking and executing typical plays. It's not a knock on Jordan's passing ability (he was good passer), I am just very high on Oscar passing ability.

I definitely agree with you that Jordan's combination of fundamentals and athleticism is probably unmatched by any player. That's why he can be argued as the most skilled player ever, but I have a bit different definition of that word and by my definitions Bird and Oscar are more skilled players (but worse overall). Oscar could do everything Jordan could in terms of non-athletic related things, but he doesn't look as "impressive" at first look because he's less athletic and played under stricter rules.

I hope you understand my argument now.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#133 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 7:28 pm

70sFan wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
Good call on Bird. He's easily in top 5 most skilled range, probably top 3. I'll add Hakeem to that equation for a big. I'll have to watch more Oscar, but he doesn't strike me as more skilled, especially when it comes to dribbling (so much one handed dribbling, though I know it's reflective of the times). What do you consider him more skilled at? I will say that I've been impressed by how "tight" or concise his game looks.

I consider skills all-encompassing. Fundamentals - footwork, ability to dribble, passing ability, defensive hand in the passing lane, quick lateral movement. Everything that requires execution, really.

Anyway, you may find it ironic since Oscar (and Jordan) are known for versatility, but I don't find Oscar's skillset nearly as versatile as Jordan's, hence why he wasn't able to perform all of the bizarre dribbles, acrobatic moves, etc. I actually believe that it's Jordan's insane control and fundamentals that enabled him to do the seemingly bizarre circus shots and plays that he made. But most of the time, he controlled these crazy plays and circus shots. Those are the skills at work, IMO.


His dribbling looks unimpressive because he couldn't do things players from 1980s and on have been doing. Rules didn't allow that, that's why his dribbling looks very simple. He still had killer crossover and could do all behind the backs and hesitation moves, he did that and it worked for him perfectly.

Oscar had amazing midrange game, the level of difficulty of some of his fadeaways and pull ups is ridiculous. In this aspect he's quite comparable to older Jordan who didn't have enough athleticism to find easy separation and instead forced tons of contested jumpshots that was easy for him. The same applies to Oscar, he did that without any problems.

Oscar had extremely efficient high post game too, also very similar to Jordan. He didn't use all of the fancy footwork because traveling was called more strictly back then, but when you watch him you can see a lot of subtle head fakes, hesitations and shimmy moves. It's often not visible at first look, but when you watch him in slow motion you should really appreciate his abilities.

Oscar was also extremely good at using his body and I consider that more of a skill than acrobatic moves. Jordan's insane ability to hit circus shots needs a lot of skill, but it's still mostly due to his athleticism. I think that watching someone like Dantley finishing over 7 footer in the post requires more skill than Jordan jumping over two defenders and making reverse layup.

Oscar was also better passer than Jordan and this one isn't close to me. Maybe it's more because of his mindset, but Jordan was not the floor general Oscar was. I'm not talking about assists numbers or highlight passes, but regular playmaking and executing typical plays. It's not a knock on Jordan's passing ability (he was good passer), I am just very high on Oscar passing ability.

I definitely agree with you that Jordan's combination of fundamentals and athleticism is probably unmatched by any player. That's why he can be argued as the most skilled player ever, but I have a bit different definition of that word and by my definitions Bird and Oscar are more skilled players (but worse overall). Oscar could do everything Jordan could in terms of non-athletic related things, but he doesn't look as "impressive" at first look because he's less athletic and played under stricter rules.

I hope you understand my argument now.



Yeah, that makes sense. For the record, I consider Oscar the most underrated passer of all time. That’s his skill that impressed me the most, though I did notice his stellar midrange game as well (ahead of its time). I think that he’d rack up some major assists today, but I know that in terms of pace that may not make sense.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#134 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 9, 2019 7:41 pm

bledredwine wrote:
Using efficiency as an argument of skillset is ridiculous. You're literally addressing one skill - hitting shots. And it's not just hitting shots. This is Kobe taking all sorts of crazy fadeaways. How would Lebron fare if he took a bunch of crazy midrange shots that he had smaller chance of making, not to mention in an era without such spread courts due to 3 ball shooting?


Yeah if only there were examples out there of LeBron hitting lots of tough mid range shots. Wish such a thing existed.







It’s just such a shame we never saw LeBron show off his mid-range prowess.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#135 » by bledredwine » Mon Sep 9, 2019 8:30 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
Using efficiency as an argument of skillset is ridiculous. You're literally addressing one skill - hitting shots. And it's not just hitting shots. This is Kobe taking all sorts of crazy fadeaways. How would Lebron fare if he took a bunch of crazy midrange shots that he had smaller chance of making, not to mention in an era without such spread courts due to 3 ball shooting?


Yeah if only there were examples out there of LeBron hitting lots of tough mid range shots. Wish such a thing existed.







It’s just such a shame we never saw LeBron show off his mid-range prowess.


Right. Let’s sit here and ignore that it’s his major weakness and that until only four years ago, he had a 20 percentile finals midrange game. Let’s also forget that Popovich left him open as a strategy because it was a weakness.

Lebron’s talented at many things, but no, he would not be nearly as efficient if he took a midrange fade-away instead of more drives. You know that.

I will stand by this always- midrange game is Lebron’s weakness. It’s the only reason that the Lebron clutch stigma began in the first place. It's the reason that Durant looks so much more comfortable and consistently outscores Lebron. It’s something that he’s had to work on and something that he’s improved a lot. Though he’s shown amazing midrange game on occasion (50 point finals game 1 for example), he’s never been consistent.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#136 » by freethedevil » Mon Sep 9, 2019 8:44 pm

G35 wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The idea of a GOAT is all opinion. It's like asking who the greatest actor is, or best singer.

There is no one overall GOAT, just people who are the GOATs at aspects of the game

GOAT defender - Russell
GOAT legacy - MJ
GOAT resume - KAJ
GOAT skills - Kobe
GOAT dominance - Shaq
GOAT passer - Magic
GOAT talent - Lebron

KAj’s resume isn’t necessarily better than mj’s and it isn’t on par with russell’s.


Also odd to use passer+dominance+skills...


As Unbiased said KAJ's resume absolutely destroys anyone else's.

No, it really doesn't. His college resume is better, but it's not by the same margin as the gap in the nba resumes. Russell was a 2x ncaa champion who won the highschool equivalent of the mvp. Then he won the college equivalent of the mvp twice.

Lets comapre that to ther nba resumes where russell has one less mvp, 9 or 8 more fmvp's(depends on if we count magic's fmvp where the original vote was for kareem, for kareem) Even if we were to count all non-nba accolades, those 11 fmvp's russell would have won vaults him signifcantly above anyone else.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#137 » by freethedevil » Mon Sep 9, 2019 8:46 pm

G35 wrote:
bledredwine wrote:
G35 wrote:
As Unbiased said KAJ's resume absolutely destroys anyone else's.

No one else has had the level of pure dominance at every level of basketball that Kareem has.

This is a not even close situation.

If you want to make it just about the NBA, fine there are arguments, but overall basketball its Kareem and then everyone else......


This is one player who I always entertain in GOAT debate vs. Jordan. I totally get it, when someone chooses KAJ.

That said, Jordan and Russell are the two players who have comparable resumes to KAJ. His isn't clearly better than either. These 3 have by far the greatest resumes. If you take away longevity, Jordan has everyone handily. But longevity is important in it's own right. If you prioritize winning championships, Russell creams them. That said, he did have to beat half the number of teams and far fewer games in the playoffs. Still, point being - all 3 have the greatest resumes.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kareem_abdul_jabbar_vs_michael_jordan.htm




Yes, when you take in account only the NBA yes.

But if you take in account high school and college and the NBA.

Its not close.


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (born Ferdinand Lewis Alcindor Jr.; April 16, 1947) is an American retired professional basketball player who played 20 seasons in the National Basketball Association (NBA) for the Milwaukee Bucks and the Los Angeles Lakers. During his career as a center, Abdul-Jabbar was a record six-time NBA Most Valuable Player (MVP), a record 19-time NBA All-Star, a 15-time All-NBA selection, and an 11-time NBA All-Defensive Team member. A member of six NBA championship teams as a player and two more as an assistant coach, Abdul-Jabbar twice was voted NBA Finals MVP. In 1996, he was honored as one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History. NBA coach Pat Riley and players Isiah Thomas and Julius Erving have called him the greatest basketball player of all time.

After winning 71 consecutive basketball games on his high school team in New York City, Alcindor was recruited by Jerry Norman, the assistant coach of UCLA,[6] where he played for coach John Wooden[7] on three consecutive national championship teams and was a record three-time MVP of the NCAA Tournament. Drafted with the first overall pick by the one-season-old Bucks franchise in the 1969 NBA draft, Alcindor spent six seasons in Milwaukee. After leading the Bucks to its first NBA championship at age 24 in 1971, he took the Muslim name Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Using his trademark "skyhook" shot, he established himself as one of the league's top scorers. In 1975, he was traded to the Lakers, with whom he played the final 14 seasons of his career and won five additional NBA championships. Abdul-Jabbar's contributions were a key component in the "Showtime" era of Lakers basketball. Over his 20-year NBA career, his teams succeeded in making the playoffs 18 times and got past the first round 14 times; his teams reached the NBA Finals on 10 occasions.

At the time of his retirement at age 42 in 1989, Abdul-Jabbar was the NBA's all-time leader in points scored (38,387), games played (1,560), minutes played (57,446), field goals made (15,837), field goal attempts (28,307), blocked shots (3,189), defensive rebounds (9,394), career wins (1,074), and personal fouls (4,657). He remains the all-time leader in points scored and career wins. He is ranked third all-time in both rebounds and blocked shots. In 2007, ESPN voted him the greatest center of all time,[8] in 2008, they named him the "greatest player in college basketball history",[9] and in 2016, they named him the second best player in NBA history (behind Michael Jordan).[10] Abdul-Jabbar has also been an actor, a basketball coach, and a best-selling author.[11][12] In 2012, he was selected by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to be a U.S. global cultural ambassador.[13] In 2016, President Barack Obama awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom.



The NBA GOAT is subjective, but the greatest basketball player ever is clearly Kareem......

Give russell his non-nba accolades and the awards he would have won if they existed at the time and russell is back to well ahead of mj or kareem.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#138 » by PurpleGreenGold » Mon Sep 9, 2019 9:24 pm

Given the lunacy of this board sometimes, I'm surprised someone didn't throw out Garnett's name for this thread. Why not? He already gets overrated on every other topic.
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#139 » by SeniorWalker » Mon Sep 9, 2019 9:40 pm

Forgot about Kevin Garnett. Yep he deserves to be considered absolutely. Not the best defender of his era, not the best offensive player of his era, never led his minny teams to the finals. The one finals he won Paul Pierce was the most valuable player. Routinely outplayed by other positional match ups in his prime. How could I forget? :)
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Re: How many have a logical case for GOAT? 

Post#140 » by freethedevil » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:11 am

SeniorWalker wrote:Forgot about Kevin Garnett. Yep he deserves to be considered absolutely. Not the best defender of his era, not the best offensive player of his era, never led his minny teams to the finals. The one finals he won Paul Pierce was the most valuable player. Routinely outplayed by other positional match ups in his prime. How could I forget? :)

I wonder how you reconcile this take with the 08 celtics improving more with post prime garnett than the 08 lakers did with peak kobe....

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