Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul?

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Higher on your goat list?

Pippen
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48%
Cp3
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52%
 
Total votes: 58

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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#41 » by DatAsh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:27 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
eminence wrote:Sheed was for sure the Blazers defensive anchor.


Rasheed is a great pick and roll defender and man to man defender but he's no Pippen. He can't roam around the court on defense like Pippen and doesn't have the athleticism and iq of Pippen. Pippen is the total package on defense and was the catalyst for blazers 2000 playoff run, just go look at minutes BPM VORP steals assists rebounds.

1998 Shaq played blazers with Rasheed and averaged 29 PPG 65% FG and that was with his 2nd best scorer Rick Fox! Still swept Rasheed's blazers. Fast forward two years later when Kobe has emerged into an all-star. Adding Pippen still won 3 games vs a much superior team. That should tell how big of a difference Pippen was to Portland.

2000 Shaq was struggling because of Pippen's help defense. Game 7 shaq couldn't do anything and needed Kobe to save him.

As far as this comparison, Pippen has two years that are comparable to Paul's peak playoff years.

1994 and 2000 vs 2008 and 2018

Paul couldnt take his teams any further as the best player.

Than pippen had a 6 ring stretch of two 3peats in 8 years. Paul's body wouldn't hold up for that. So overall, Pippen seems to have the clear edge for career rank.


Are you arguing that Pippen was a better defender than Sheed on those Blazers teams?
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#42 » by DatAsh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:34 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Pippen was anchoring the Blazers defense as Rasheed was never really an anchor


:crazy: this makes me think you didn't actually watch those teams. Not really sure of a better way to put it.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#43 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:44 pm

I think both of these guys tend to be two of the most overrated ATG players on this board and in analytics circles, but I'm going Chris Paul with zero hesitation. Both were great defenders in their prime, and even though you should value forward/frontcourt defense more highly than PG defense, which gives Pippen an edge, Paul is 2-3 tiers above as an offensive player. The Bulls are sitting there with 8 rings instead of 6 if you swapped Pippen and Paul's age 22-24 seasons.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#44 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:04 pm

DatAsh wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
eminence wrote:Sheed was for sure the Blazers defensive anchor.


Rasheed is a great pick and roll defender and man to man defender but he's no Pippen. He can't roam around the court on defense like Pippen and doesn't have the athleticism and iq of Pippen. Pippen is the total package on defense and was the catalyst for blazers 2000 playoff run, just go look at minutes BPM VORP steals assists rebounds.

1998 Shaq played blazers with Rasheed and averaged 29 PPG 65% FG and that was with his 2nd best scorer Rick Fox! Still swept Rasheed's blazers. Fast forward two years later when Kobe has emerged into an all-star. Adding Pippen still won 3 games vs a much superior team. That should tell how big of a difference Pippen was to Portland.

2000 Shaq was struggling because of Pippen's help defense. Game 7 shaq couldn't do anything and needed Kobe to save him.

As far as this comparison, Pippen has two years that are comparable to Paul's peak playoff years.

1994 and 2000 vs 2008 and 2018

Paul couldnt take his teams any further as the best player.

Than pippen had a 6 ring stretch of two 3peats in 8 years. Paul's body wouldn't hold up for that. So overall, Pippen seems to have the clear edge for career rank.


Are you arguing that Pippen was a better defender than Sheed on those Blazers teams?


Yes in 2000. Pippen roams around all over the court and makes up so much space with his length athleticism and iq, its like he's making up 3 or 4 guys on defense. Pippen is a legit defensive GOAT level and the Bill Russell of his time. Rasheed is an excellent defender in his own right but not on Pippen's level as a help defender.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#45 » by DatAsh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:06 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
DatAsh wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Rasheed is a great pick and roll defender and man to man defender but he's no Pippen. He can't roam around the court on defense like Pippen and doesn't have the athleticism and iq of Pippen. Pippen is the total package on defense and was the catalyst for blazers 2000 playoff run, just go look at minutes BPM VORP steals assists rebounds.

1998 Shaq played blazers with Rasheed and averaged 29 PPG 65% FG and that was with his 2nd best scorer Rick Fox! Still swept Rasheed's blazers. Fast forward two years later when Kobe has emerged into an all-star. Adding Pippen still won 3 games vs a much superior team. That should tell how big of a difference Pippen was to Portland.

2000 Shaq was struggling because of Pippen's help defense. Game 7 shaq couldn't do anything and needed Kobe to save him.

As far as this comparison, Pippen has two years that are comparable to Paul's peak playoff years.

1994 and 2000 vs 2008 and 2018

Paul couldnt take his teams any further as the best player.

Than pippen had a 6 ring stretch of two 3peats in 8 years. Paul's body wouldn't hold up for that. So overall, Pippen seems to have the clear edge for career rank.


Are you arguing that Pippen was a better defender than Sheed on those Blazers teams?


Yes in 2000. Pippen roams around all over the court and makes up so much space with his length athleticism and iq, its like he's making up 3 or 4 guys on defense. Pippen is a legit defensive GOAT level and the Bill Russell of his time. Rasheed is an excellent defender in his own right but not on Pippen's level as a help defender.


Yeah...I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. We're so far apart on this.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#46 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:16 pm

DatAsh wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
DatAsh wrote:
Are you arguing that Pippen was a better defender than Sheed on those Blazers teams?


Yes in 2000. Pippen roams around all over the court and makes up so much space with his length athleticism and iq, its like he's making up 3 or 4 guys on defense. Pippen is a legit defensive GOAT level and the Bill Russell of his time. Rasheed is an excellent defender in his own right but not on Pippen's level as a help defender.


Yeah...I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. We're so far apart on this.




Kobe has huge respect for Pippen and he played against older Pippen. We agree to disagree as I feel Pippen has anchored 8 or 9 great defensive teams in his career.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#47 » by DatAsh » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:19 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
DatAsh wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
Yes in 2000. Pippen roams around all over the court and makes up so much space with his length athleticism and iq, its like he's making up 3 or 4 guys on defense. Pippen is a legit defensive GOAT level and the Bill Russell of his time. Rasheed is an excellent defender in his own right but not on Pippen's level as a help defender.


Yeah...I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. We're so far apart on this.




Kobe has huge respect for Pippen and he played against older Pippen. We agree to disagree as I feel Pippen has anchored 8 or 9 great defensive teams in his career.


Pippen is on my short list of greatest perimeter defenders ever.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#48 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:24 pm

Being one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history doesn't make Pippen Bill Russell of his era. Russell was the best player of his era and arguably ever.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#49 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:56 pm

70sFan wrote:Being one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history doesn't make Pippen Bill Russell of his era. Russell was the best player of his era and arguably ever.


I don't see Russell as a great enough 2 way player to be considered that. Russell was more in the category of a Steve Nash or Magic Johnson player (dominating on 1 end but not great on the other end). Russell can be argued goat defender but never goat 2 way player, not even close.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#50 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:47 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Being one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history doesn't make Pippen Bill Russell of his era. Russell was the best player of his era and arguably ever.


I don't see Russell as a great enough 2 way player to be considered that. Russell was more in the category of a Steve Nash or Magic Johnson player (dominating on 1 end but not great on the other end). Russell can be argued goat defender but never goat 2 way player, not even close.

He's not GOAT two way player, he's GOAT player. Period.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#51 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:13 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Being one of the best perimeter defenders in NBA history doesn't make Pippen Bill Russell of his era. Russell was the best player of his era and arguably ever.


I don't see Russell as a great enough 2 way player to be considered that. Russell was more in the category of a Steve Nash or Magic Johnson player (dominating on 1 end but not great on the other end). Russell can be argued goat defender but never goat 2 way player, not even close.

He's not GOAT two way player, he's GOAT player. Period.


Russell never even averaged 19 points, he isn't goat level overall player. Wilt Hakeem Kareem Shaq Duncan are all clearly better because the offense and scoring gap.

Wilt averaged more than double the points Russell ever did. Russell is an all time great defensive player, great playmaker, not a great scorer. Same with Pippen. Russell's rings get exaggerated, in his first ring there was 2 other teams in the league over .500 record how is that impressive.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#52 » by Lost92Bricks » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:01 pm

No-more-rings wrote:I don’t remember it being an entire quarter when i watched the series in real time.

Feel free to find the footage though..

Edit: If you’re talking about this, i’m seeing a bunch of double teams and on top of that Paul was honestly fouling the **** out of him


No, I actually watched the damn game. He was KD's primary defender for the entire quarter. That video shows none of the times he denied KD the ball and forced OKC into turnovers and bad shots.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#53 » by udfa » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:09 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Steve Smith is no better than Eric Gordon. I actually think Gordon is the better overall player. Pippen played 24 more regular season games and played in the game 7 of the WCF, that plays a huge factor in pippen being better. Pippen also still has the higher playoff BPM and VORP since Paul couldn't stay on the court. Pippen would of won the title with Harden I think, he was inches away from winning it with Rasheed who is a way worse player than Harden.


2000 Steve Smith >> any version of Eric Gordon. Equating the two is ridiculous and clearly displays the extent of your bias in the argument. Since you place so much emphasis on BPM, I'm sure you will agree once you consider the staggering gap between them:

2000 Smith BPM and VORP (reg/playoffs): +3.2 BPM and 3.6 VORP / +5.7 BPM and 1.2 VORP
Eric Gordon's career best regular season (2011) BPM and VORP: +1.3 and 1.7
Eric Gordon's career best playoff (2017) BPM and VORP: +0.2 and 0.2

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Pippen anchored blazers offense and defense, he has a stronger case as blazers best player than Chris Paul did. Rasheed didn't draw close to the attention Harden did and isn't nearly the playmaker that Harden is. Sounds like Paul was the one that had more help.


Even if Pippen was the best player on the 2000 Blazers (which is far from certain), the best player on Team A is not necessarily better or even more important than the 2nd best player on Team B. That's simply a fact that can be very easily demonstrated. This is Pippen vs Paul, not Pippen vs Steve Smith (who BTW had just 0.2 less playoff VORP than Pippen on that Blazers team).

Playoff BPM is just one stat (VORP is derived directly from BPM) and your entire argument essentially rests on a +0.4 edge in very small samples. CP3 had a +2.9 regular season BPM edge over Pip and despite playing 902 fewer minutes had just 0.1 less VORP. WS and WS/48 show a higher edge for CP3 in both the regular season and playoffs. Forget the stats for a moment. The impacts on their teams from the two are very clearly demonstrated by the team results. The 1999 Blazers won 57 games and lost 0-4 in the WCF to the eventual champ. The 2000 Blazers returned the 1999 team intact and added Pippen and Smith but won just 2 more regular season games and lost 3-4 in the WCF to the eventual champ. The 2017 Rockets won 55 games and lost 2-4 in the West Semis to the eventual loser of the WCF. The 2018 Rockets added CP3 and Tucker but lost Bev, Lou and Harrell and still managed to win 10 more games, plus Houston was up 3-2 in the WCF on the eventual champs before CP3 got injured and then completely collapsed. If Paul had not been injured at the end of Game 5, it's plausible if not probable that the Rockets win it all.

For clarity, let's have a full look at the BBRef stats besides BPM for both players.

00 Pip Regular: 12.5 PPG (.533 TS), 6.3 RPG, 5.0 APG (2 to 1 Assist/TO), 1.4 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 7.8 WS, .137 WS/48
18 CP3 Regular: 18.6 PPG (.604 TS), 5.4 RPG, 7.9 APG (3.6 to 1), 1.7 SPG, 0.2 BPG, 10.2 WS, .265 WS/48

00 Pip Playoff: 14.9 PPG (.522 TS), 7.3 RPG, 4.3 APG (1.9 to 1), 2.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 1.8 WS, .140 WS/48
18 CP3 Playoff: 21.1 PPG (.565 TS), 5.9 RPG, 5.8 APG (3.1 to 1), 2.0 SPG, 0.3 BPG, 2.1 WS, .193 WS/48

I just can't see how anyone can look at the differences in both the stats and the team accomplishments (relative to talent) and not conclude that Chris Paul was both a better player and more important to his team's success both that season and throughout their careers.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#54 » by udfa » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:52 am

Forgot the Per 100 stats

00 Pip Regular: 19.9 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.3 SPG, 0.8 BPG, 4.0 TO, Net Rtg +6
18 CP3 Regular: 28.8 PPG, 8.3 RPG, 12.2 APG, 2.6 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 3.4 TO, Net Rtg +21

00 Pip Playoffs: 21.8 PPG, 10.4 RPG, 6.3 APG, 2.9 SPG, 0.6 BPG, 3.4 TO, Net Rtg +6
18 CP3 Playoffs: 30.7 PPG, 8.6 RPG, 8.4 APG, 2.9 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 2.7 TO, Net Rtg +10

This isn't meant to be a knock on Pippen, he was an all-star level player that season. CP3 was still an all-NBA level player, probably for the last time in his career. It's not a huge gap between them because you can plug Pippen onto any team and get full value for his production rather than Paul whose team will lose by redundancy when Paul is paired with a high volume ball dominant guard.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#55 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:58 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
I don't see Russell as a great enough 2 way player to be considered that. Russell was more in the category of a Steve Nash or Magic Johnson player (dominating on 1 end but not great on the other end). Russell can be argued goat defender but never goat 2 way player, not even close.

He's not GOAT two way player, he's GOAT player. Period.


Russell never even averaged 19 points, he isn't goat level overall player. Wilt Hakeem Kareem Shaq Duncan are all clearly better because the offense and scoring gap.

Wilt averaged more than double the points Russell ever did. Russell is an all time great defensive player, great playmaker, not a great scorer. Same with Pippen. Russell's rings get exaggerated, in his first ring there was 2 other teams in the league over .500 record how is that impressive.

That's not my fault that you are so obsessed with volume scorers, but players can impact the gam in so many other ways. Russell had higher overall impact than any of the players you mentioned even though he's worse scorer than them.

I don't rank him because of rings either and don't forget that being over 0.500 in 8 teams league is far more impressive than in 30 teams league.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#56 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:54 pm

udfa wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Steve Smith is no better than Eric Gordon. I actually think Gordon is the better overall player. Pippen played 24 more regular season games and played in the game 7 of the WCF, that plays a huge factor in pippen being better. Pippen also still has the higher playoff BPM and VORP since Paul couldn't stay on the court. Pippen would of won the title with Harden I think, he was inches away from winning it with Rasheed who is a way worse player than Harden.


2000 Steve Smith >> any version of Eric Gordon. Equating the two is ridiculous and clearly displays the extent of your bias in the argument. Since you place so much emphasis on BPM, I'm sure you will agree once you consider the staggering gap between them:

2000 Smith BPM and VORP (reg/playoffs): +3.2 BPM and 3.6 VORP / +5.7 BPM and 1.2 VORP
Eric Gordon's career best regular season (2011) BPM and VORP: +1.3 and 1.7
Eric Gordon's career best playoff (2017) BPM and VORP: +0.2 and 0.2

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:Pippen anchored blazers offense and defense, he has a stronger case as blazers best player than Chris Paul did. Rasheed didn't draw close to the attention Harden did and isn't nearly the playmaker that Harden is. Sounds like Paul was the one that had more help.


Even if Pippen was the best player on the 2000 Blazers (which is far from certain), the best player on Team A is not necessarily better or even more important than the 2nd best player on Team B. That's simply a fact that can be very easily demonstrated. This is Pippen vs Paul, not Pippen vs Steve Smith (who BTW had just 0.2 less playoff VORP than Pippen on that Blazers team).

Playoff BPM is just one stat (VORP is derived directly from BPM) and your entire argument essentially rests on a +0.4 edge in very small samples. CP3 had a +2.9 regular season BPM edge over Pip and despite playing 902 fewer minutes had just 0.1 less VORP. WS and WS/48 show a higher edge for CP3 in both the regular season and playoffs. Forget the stats for a moment. The impacts on their teams from the two are very clearly demonstrated by the team results. The 1999 Blazers won 57 games and lost 0-4 in the WCF to the eventual champ. The 2000 Blazers returned the 1999 team intact and added Pippen and Smith but won just 2 more regular season games and lost 3-4 in the WCF to the eventual champ. The 2017 Rockets won 55 games and lost 2-4 in the West Semis to the eventual loser of the WCF. The 2018 Rockets added CP3 and Tucker but lost Bev, Lou and Harrell and still managed to win 10 more games, plus Houston was up 3-2 in the WCF on the eventual champs before CP3 got injured and then completely collapsed. If Paul had not been injured at the end of Game 5, it's plausible if not probable that the Rockets win it all.

For clarity, let's have a full look at the BBRef stats besides BPM for both players.

00 Pip Regular: 12.5 PPG (.533 TS), 6.3 RPG, 5.0 APG (2 to 1 Assist/TO), 1.4 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 7.8 WS, .137 WS/48
18 CP3 Regular: 18.6 PPG (.604 TS), 5.4 RPG, 7.9 APG (3.6 to 1), 1.7 SPG, 0.2 BPG, 10.2 WS, .265 WS/48

00 Pip Playoff: 14.9 PPG (.522 TS), 7.3 RPG, 4.3 APG (1.9 to 1), 2.0 SPG, 0.4 BPG, 1.8 WS, .140 WS/48
18 CP3 Playoff: 21.1 PPG (.565 TS), 5.9 RPG, 5.8 APG (3.1 to 1), 2.0 SPG, 0.3 BPG, 2.1 WS, .193 WS/48

I just can't see how anyone can look at the differences in both the stats and the team accomplishments (relative to talent) and not conclude that Chris Paul was both a better player and more important to his team's success both that season and throughout their careers.


BPM is a good stat for star players but not for role players. Both Steve Smith and Eric Gordon's role are to shoot and score, there's not a significant difference between them. It certainly doesn't make up the gap between Harden and Rasheed.

The significant difference is the teams best scorers in Rasheed and James Harden, which you conveniently keep ignoring. James Harden won MVP that regular season and you're trying to make some case about how great Paul made them better in 58 games he played? Pippen wasn't playing with an MVP, he was playing with Rasheed who clearly isn't a 1st option scorer. Pippen still ran the offense in regular season and had them at a top 3 offense. Paul wasn't running the offense in regular season, harden was. Paul didn't even play 60 games.

Playoffs? Like I said both teams the previous year won zero west finals games and both teams ended with 3 wins the next. The difference is Pippen actually played in games 6 and 7 which gives him the edge.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#57 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:58 pm



Paul's defense also looked lazy vs spurs in 08 playoffs. You're telling me that's close to 1994 Pippen? Wow
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#58 » by Dr Spaceman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:30 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:

Paul's defense also looked lazy vs spurs in 08 playoffs. You're telling me that's close to 1994 Pippen? Wow


No one here ever argued that Paul was an elite defensive force when he was 22. Neither was Pippen, FWIW.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#59 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:12 pm

70sFan wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:
70sFan wrote:He's not GOAT two way player, he's GOAT player. Period.


Russell never even averaged 19 points, he isn't goat level overall player. Wilt Hakeem Kareem Shaq Duncan are all clearly better because the offense and scoring gap.

Wilt averaged more than double the points Russell ever did. Russell is an all time great defensive player, great playmaker, not a great scorer. Same with Pippen. Russell's rings get exaggerated, in his first ring there was 2 other teams in the league over .500 record how is that impressive.

That's not my fault that you are so obsessed with volume scorers, but players can impact the gam in so many other ways. Russell had higher overall impact than any of the players you mentioned even though he's worse scorer than them.

I don't rank him because of rings either and don't forget that being over 0.500 in 8 teams league is far more impressive than in 30 teams league.


I just don't see how Russell is that far ahead on defense to make up for his lacking offense. Duncan's offense gap on Russell is bigger than the defensive gap, much much bigger. You are the one obsessed with 50s/60s players and overrating Russell here.
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Re: Who do you rank higher all time: Scottie Pippen or Chris Paul? 

Post#60 » by HBK_Kliq_33 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:16 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:

Paul's defense also looked lazy vs spurs in 08 playoffs. You're telling me that's close to 1994 Pippen? Wow


No one here ever argued that Paul was an elite defensive force when he was 22. Neither was Pippen, FWIW.


Well we were comparing peak playoff runs and that's why I looked at 94 vs 08. If you want to compare 94 vs 2015 I think Paul still loses because he got injured again.

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