Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic?

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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#2 » by zonedefense » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:12 pm

2003, 2005-11

Dirk anchored top 10 offenses every single year with a worse supporting cast in most of those seasons. He also is a marginally better defender in my opinion. Jokic is a great offensive player as well and his playmaking ability makes up for the lack in scoring ability but not for the overall impact Dirk had due to his gravity.
Nowitzki was the biggest missmatch of his era. Jokic is the best passing big of his era (maybe even alltime).
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#3 » by No-more-rings » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:18 pm

zonedefense wrote:2003, 2005-11

Dirk anchored top 10 offenses every single year with a worse supporting cast in most of those seasons. He also is a marginally better defender in my opinion. Jokic is a great offensive player as well and his playmaking ability makes up for the lack in scoring ability but not for the overall impact Dirk had due to his gravity.
Nowitzki was the biggest missmatch of his era. Jokic is the best passing big of his era (maybe even alltime).

I think you’d have to at least remove 05 and 07 due to poor playoff performance.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#4 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:51 pm

At this point I’d take very season of his extended prime (03-11) although Jokic could be argued over some of the weaker individual Dirk seasons.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#5 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:55 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
zonedefense wrote:2003, 2005-11

Dirk anchored top 10 offenses every single year with a worse supporting cast in most of those seasons. He also is a marginally better defender in my opinion. Jokic is a great offensive player as well and his playmaking ability makes up for the lack in scoring ability but not for the overall impact Dirk had due to his gravity.
Nowitzki was the biggest missmatch of his era. Jokic is the best passing big of his era (maybe even alltime).

I think you’d have to at least remove 05 and 07 due to poor playoff performance.


Jokic went up against the league’s 19th and 16th best defense- and the 16th defense was more like 28th after they replaced Nurkic with Kanter. Dirk went up against a very formidable Houston defense (ranked 4th).

We simply don’t have enough of a sample for Jokic to make determinations like this. He was very good but wasn’t really tested.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#6 » by No-more-rings » Mon Sep 9, 2019 6:59 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
zonedefense wrote:2003, 2005-11

Dirk anchored top 10 offenses every single year with a worse supporting cast in most of those seasons. He also is a marginally better defender in my opinion. Jokic is a great offensive player as well and his playmaking ability makes up for the lack in scoring ability but not for the overall impact Dirk had due to his gravity.
Nowitzki was the biggest missmatch of his era. Jokic is the best passing big of his era (maybe even alltime).

I think you’d have to at least remove 05 and 07 due to poor playoff performance.


Jokic went up against the league’s 19th and 16th best defense- and the 16th defense was more like 28th after they replaced Nurkic with Kanter. Dirk went up against a very formidable Houston defense (ranked 4th).

We simply don’t have enough of a sample for Jokic to make determinations like this. He was very good but wasn’t really tested.

You can only play who’s in front of you, why knock him for it?

I don’t really see anything about Jokic’s game that makes me believe he’d like crumble against a top notch defense. Maybe he doesn’t throw up 25/10/10 or whatever but a guy with his size, shooting and passing its hard to stop no matter who you are.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#7 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 9, 2019 7:13 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:I think you’d have to at least remove 05 and 07 due to poor playoff performance.


Jokic went up against the league’s 19th and 16th best defense- and the 16th defense was more like 28th after they replaced Nurkic with Kanter. Dirk went up against a very formidable Houston defense (ranked 4th).

We simply don’t have enough of a sample for Jokic to make determinations like this. He was very good but wasn’t really tested.

You can only play who’s in front of you, why knock him for it?

I don’t really see anything about Jokic’s game that makes me believe he’d like crumble against a top notch defense. Maybe he doesn’t throw up 25/10/10 or whatever but a guy with his size, shooting and passing its hard to stop no matter who you are.


I mean Giannis looked like Giannis until he ran into Kawhi. I’m nit trying to knock Jokic, he was brilliant in the Portland series, but if you’re just comparing statistical “playoff performance” you’re not comparing like for like. The difference in quality between the Warriors and Rockets and the rest of the West last year was pretty huge and those teams can throw things in terms of physical matchups, help schemes, and intensity that is leagues different from what San Antonio or Portland could manage. A guy like Draymond knows all your moves and which one you’ll choose before you do and already has a counter. Enes Kanter isn’t that.

Again not knocking him. But he will struggle against elite playoff defenses until he gains a ton of experience just like every young superstar does.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#8 » by freethedevil » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:42 am

A lack of elite opposition is really the only thing that makes me hesitatnt on putting jokic above dirk. If jokic plays lke he did these playoffs against a contender next season I'll probably have him above anything from dirk.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#9 » by freethedevil » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:44 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
Jokic went up against the league’s 19th and 16th best defense- and the 16th defense was more like 28th after they replaced Nurkic with Kanter. Dirk went up against a very formidable Houston defense (ranked 4th).

We simply don’t have enough of a sample for Jokic to make determinations like this. He was very good but wasn’t really tested.

You can only play who’s in front of you, why knock him for it?

I don’t really see anything about Jokic’s game that makes me believe he’d like crumble against a top notch defense. Maybe he doesn’t throw up 25/10/10 or whatever but a guy with his size, shooting and passing its hard to stop no matter who you are.


I mean Giannis looked like Giannis until he ran into Kawhi. I’m nit trying to knock Jokic, he was brilliant in the Portland series, but if you’re just comparing statistical “playoff performance” you’re not comparing like for like. The difference in quality between the Warriors and Rockets and the rest of the West last year was pretty huge

Not really arguing but defensively both the rockets and warriors had bad playoff defenses last sesason.

Also puzzling people keep insisting on making it "giannis ran into kawhi" when siakim was as effective vs him and gasol/ibaka's paint presence was more important than literally anything that happened in the perimiter.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#10 » by Dr Spaceman » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:28 am

freethedevil wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:You can only play who’s in front of you, why knock him for it?

I don’t really see anything about Jokic’s game that makes me believe he’d like crumble against a top notch defense. Maybe he doesn’t throw up 25/10/10 or whatever but a guy with his size, shooting and passing its hard to stop no matter who you are.


I mean Giannis looked like Giannis until he ran into Kawhi. I’m nit trying to knock Jokic, he was brilliant in the Portland series, but if you’re just comparing statistical “playoff performance” you’re not comparing like for like. The difference in quality between the Warriors and Rockets and the rest of the West last year was pretty huge

Not really arguing but defensively both the rockets and warriors had bad playoff defenses last sesason.

Also puzzling people keep insisting on making it "giannis ran into kawhi" when siakim was as effective vs him and gasol/ibaka's paint presence was more important than literally anything that happened in the perimiter.


The Rockets held the Jazz to a 99 ORTG- that’s pretty excellent. They didn’t defend the Warriors well though.

Warriors were very up and down- horrible against LAC, fine against the Rcokets, excellent against Portland and then bad against TOR where all their best players were hurt.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#11 » by Baski » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:10 am

03-12
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#12 » by Pg81 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:08 am

All prime versions.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:27 am

No-more-rings wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:I think you’d have to at least remove 05 and 07 due to poor playoff performance.


Jokic went up against the league’s 19th and 16th best defense- and the 16th defense was more like 28th after they replaced Nurkic with Kanter. Dirk went up against a very formidable Houston defense (ranked 4th).

We simply don’t have enough of a sample for Jokic to make determinations like this. He was very good but wasn’t really tested.

You can only play who’s in front of you, why knock him for it?

I don’t really see anything about Jokic’s game that makes me believe he’d like crumble against a top notch defense. Maybe he doesn’t throw up 25/10/10 or whatever but a guy with his size, shooting and passing its hard to stop no matter who you are.


There is a huge difference in playing weak defenses and great ones. Dirk is one of the very few players who sustained his production against the best defensive teams he faced. But that's rare and we can't assume that Jokic also will do that.There are/were just too many players who look just as good as Dirk playing mediocre competition that becomes much less spectacular under pressure.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#14 » by freethedevil » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:35 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:
freethedevil wrote:
Dr Spaceman wrote:
I mean Giannis looked like Giannis until he ran into Kawhi. I’m nit trying to knock Jokic, he was brilliant in the Portland series, but if you’re just comparing statistical “playoff performance” you’re not comparing like for like. The difference in quality between the Warriors and Rockets and the rest of the West last year was pretty huge

Not really arguing but defensively both the rockets and warriors had bad playoff defenses last sesason.

Also puzzling people keep insisting on making it "giannis ran into kawhi" when siakim was as effective vs him and gasol/ibaka's paint presence was more important than literally anything that happened in the perimiter.


The Rockets held the Jazz to a 99 ORTG- that’s pretty excellent. They didn’t defend the Warriors well though.

Well the jazz suck offensively and the warriors offense was the best. Not surprising
fine against the Rcokets,

Not really when we consider what happened to the rockets the series before. A lame impersonation of the bucks turned the rrockets offense into an absolute atrocity. I don't remember what the defensive rating vs portland was. As for the raps, their offensive players got hurt, but I don't think their defense really changed much. Klay and durant were both only so-so in the earlier rounds defensively
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#15 » by Amares » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:59 pm

2010, 2011 is peak Dirk, and it's about the same level as current Jokic. Also 2006, 2007 got some strong arguments, and that's about it.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#16 » by Jaivl » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:24 am

Any FIBA version :)
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ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#17 » by Dr Spaceman » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:31 am

Jaivl wrote:Any FIBA version :)


DAMN.

Spoiler:
I was really looking forward to the USA-Serbia matchup but at least now I get to enjoy me a little more Luis Scola
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#18 » by Blazers-1977 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:51 am

2003, 2005-2007, 2010 and 2011
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#19 » by Jaivl » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:48 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Any FIBA version :)


DAMN.

Spoiler:
I was really looking forward to the USA-Serbia matchup but at least now I get to enjoy me a little more Luis Scola

At least I nailed my two other "watch out for this guy" picks (Jokic, Middleton, Ricky).
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Re: Which versions of Dirk Nowitzki would you take over 2019 Jokic? 

Post#20 » by bledredwine » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:01 pm

Dr Spaceman wrote:At this point I’d take very season of his extended prime (03-11) although Jokic could be argued over some of the weaker individual Dirk seasons.



This is my answer as well.

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