What players in NBA history could have averaged 50 PPG in 1962?

[liamliam1234]

Widely discredited by anyone who actually looks at context and pays attention. Somehow I doubt “the most influential Wilt critic on this forum” goes around whining about foul rate (but hey, maybe I am giving this place too much credit).

Valuable contribution, as ever.

[freethedevil]

Valuable contribution, as ever.

-> Says something's been discredited
-> Fails to show how or where it's been discredited
-> Sarcastically comments on the value of another poster's post.

[liamliam1234]

This little thing you do where you insist I alone have a bibliography at the ready is really tedious. Disagreeing with the substance of the point itself at least has the potential to add discussion, but that would mean actual work on your part, right? Where is your Wilt critic citation about how the 1968 76ers were crippled by Wilt winning the assists title and not fouling?

As usual, you are under no obligation to take me at face value if you do not want to, nor are you even obligated to apply a modicum of common sense to the original claims, and I do not especially care whether you do as long as it does not lead to more of this insipid bad-faith needling. Find a new hobby, or, if you really are obsessed with these go-nowhere debates, put in the work yourself.

[kendogg]

In 1962 rules? I'm not sure a perimeter player could do it. Much more strict dribbling rules and handchecking is allowed means perimeter players get MUCH less good looks. There's a good reason the FG% were low back then and no it wasn't because there was a quota on black guys. Maybe Jordan or Kobe could do it, but I doubt it. You can't take their moves and transport them to 1962.

Forwards...most of the biggest scorers there are perimeter oriented and will suffer the same as the guards. Barkley is too undersized to average 50 I think. I can't think of another forward with a devastating enough post game to explode for 50 every night. Most of them are perimeter oriented SF's.

There's probably a couple big guys that might be able to do it, like Kareem or Shaq. Hakeem's game is built on quickness so I think he uses too much energy to score in that volume. Where as behemoths like Wilt and Shaq can get 10-15 easy points on putbacks and lobs without trying. Kareem can just Skyhook his way to 50. Shaq might not have the stamina, but I think Kareem could actually probably do it if he wanted to force it, though his FG% would suffer. Everyone else I'm not sure. Wilt's game was not predicated on explosive drop steps and bowling people with his shoulder though which can wear you down. He had a nasty fadeaway that he used to score far more than his drop steps. Comparable to Kareem's Skyhook.

So my answer is Wilt and Kareem (and maybe Shaq).

[freethedevil]

This little thing you do where you insist I alone have a bibliography at the ready is really tedious.

You alone made the post, so I would expect that, you alone can actually give us something to support what your post says.

As usual, you are under no obligation to take me at face value if you do not want to

Yes, which is why I'm curious if you have anything to offer beyond what's at the "face".

Off course you are not obilgated to substanitate what you say, but I am completely free to point out that you haven't substantiated what you're saying.

[liamliam1234]

But the original comment has no need to substantiate the idea Wilt was scared to foul or that his 1968 assists title damaged the team, right?

The foul thing is nonsense I am almost positive has to come from people parroting Bill Simmons or parroting others who indirectly are drawing from Bill Simmons. There is a reason if you go through the Wilt discussions in the 2017 Top 100 project that it does not come up at all. Part of the issue with “showing” that something is discredited is when it is so out of the conversation that it never is brought up in intelligent discussions. Because it really is an inexcusably garbage take. “The second-best defender of the era made himself ineffective by not fouling.” Thanks, Bill.

The assists hunting is less dead, and definitely more enduring. You can see it a couple of times in the Top 100 discussions, but it received a similar response (some from 70sFan) as I gave. Again, results of the season speak for themselves pretty clearly.

And scoring had lots of discussion on strategy and team context, with it generally being an accepted truth that the plan was to have Wilt do that, and with some debate over whether he should have or even wanted to push back against that plan.

[Heat4lyf]

My attitude toward the Way Wilt is generally dissed by the younger posters here is pretty much similar to what I think of the music that is popular with those same millennials today--I'm going to have a T-shirt printed that says "It's not just that I'm old--your music really DOES suck!" Same for your disparagement of the greats of the past. Wilt was. IMO, a significantly superior athlete to anyone in the NBA today, WITHOUT the benefit of all the medical. training, and equipment advantages today's young, arrogant prima donnas benefit from

One thing I will say - is that given the conditions teams played under in 1962 Wilt should at least be lauded for his insane endurance and durability.

Wilt was imo the Greatest athlete of all time

[KobesScarf]

Nobody else has even averaged 30 fga

[An Unbiased Fan]

Nobody else has even averaged 30 fga

Actually, Baylor had 33.1 FGA in 1962, but only 38.3 ppg. Conversely, Kobe had 35.4 ppg on just 27.2 FGA, and MJ had 37.1 ppg on 27.8 FGA. Kobe would have 43.1 ppg on Baylor's FGA, and Mj would have 44.2 ppg

Wilt took 39.5 FGA, and 06 Kobe would have had 51.4 ppg, and 87 MJ would have 52.7 ppg. Those are the only two player I can see who can consitently put up such a high volume while maintaining efficiency. There's no 3pt line, and smaller lane, but both players can hit from mid-range like West did, and both have elite post games.

[Samurai]

Nobody else has even averaged 30 fga

Actually, Baylor had 33.1 FGA in 1962, but only 38.3 ppg. Conversely, Kobe had 35.4 ppg on just 27.2 FGA, and MJ had 37.1 ppg on 27.8 FGA. Kobe would have 43.1 ppg on Baylor's FGA, and Mj would have 44.2 ppg

Wilt took 39.5 FGA, and 06 Kobe would have had 51.4 ppg, and 87 MJ would have 52.7 ppg. Those are the only two player I can see who can consitently put up such a high volume while maintaining efficiency. There's no 3pt line, and smaller lane, but both players can hit from mid-range like West did, and both have elite post games.

I think everyone's efficiency likely takes a hit with significantly more FG attempts, but I think perimeter players who rely more on their midrange jumpshot would suffer more than low-post players shooting from closer range.

[kendogg]

Nobody else has even averaged 30 fga

Actually, Baylor had 33.1 FGA in 1962, but only 38.3 ppg. Conversely, Kobe had 35.4 ppg on just 27.2 FGA, and MJ had 37.1 ppg on 27.8 FGA. Kobe would have 43.1 ppg on Baylor's FGA, and Mj would have 44.2 ppg

Wilt took 39.5 FGA, and 06 Kobe would have had 51.4 ppg, and 87 MJ would have 52.7 ppg. Those are the only two player I can see who can consitently put up such a high volume while maintaining efficiency. There's no 3pt line, and smaller lane, but both players can hit from mid-range like West did, and both have elite post games.

I think everyone's efficiency likely takes a hit with significantly more FG attempts, but I think perimeter players who rely more on their midrange jumpshot would suffer more than low-post players shooting from closer range.

Which is why I said only Wilt, Kareem and maybe Shaq could do it with a reasonable % and wouldn't just be losing their team the game by shooting 50 shots to get 50 points. Jordan could maybe do it in 45 shots (and I'm not convinced he could), but even that is extreme. Jordan did prove he can score against handcheck defense but some of his moves are carries/traveling in the 60's so he'd have to adjust. When you score that much defenses will zone in on you and stamina is also a factor. Wilt would sometimes hold the rebound and make his guards come get the ball so he could walk up the court and save some wind. Perimeter players expend more energy on defense generally speaking and more energy on offense as well. Wilt was so big he could get several easy buckets each game as well which add up. Jordan isn't getting any freebies like that or very few.

[Mazter]

Huh? People aren't averaging 50 ppg in this no-defense league of today. How will at least 50 players do it in a no-3pt era with a smaller lane. A league where fouls calls were nothing like today. If you were a small going into the paint.....good luck.

Well, let's put it this way, today's players were handpicked based on their level of athleticism and interest in basketball. They were picked out of a talent pool who have been playing basketball since age 8-9, some of them on a nation level since age 10-11. Between those athletes the best basketball players were chosen. In college they did every training possible to make them faster, stronger, smarter than their opponents. In the NBA dedicated training and coaching staff are thrown to the mix to improve speed, agility and strength. In the off season, most players even hit the gym early to strengthen up for the pre-season workouts. These guys are exploiting every inch and dime to maximize their capabilities.

Then come 1962, guys were basically chosen on their length and interest in basketball, if discovered that is because there was not a nation wide basketball network. Most didn't start playing organised until high school and they didn't even went on nation level until college. They didn't have hoops hanging around the neighborhood, let alone public basketball courts, to improve their game whenever they liked. There were no licensed coaches, neither coaches or specialists with professional experiences. There were no televised games to learn from neither video to analyse their own game. And, except for Wilt who trained with body builders, no one saw a weight training room because it wasn't believed to help their game.

The gap in opportunities and awareness is so big, I would be surprised if not at least 100 NBA players would be able to overpower, out-skill, outrun and outsmart their peers of the sixties for 45+ minutes in 1962. So it would just be a matter of adaptation and skills whether they would be able to close in on 50ppg. But in the Olympics different rules don't seem like a problem, so the general adaptability of these players seem fine to me.

If the question was if they were born 40-60 years earlier the task would be much different. Maybe if they were transported by surprise it would it a bit of a challenge. Otherwise it can't be that a 1962 player would be as explosive, fast and strong as any other player from the nineties and on.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Nobody else has even averaged 30 fga

Actually, Baylor had 33.1 FGA in 1962, but only 38.3 ppg. Conversely, Kobe had 35.4 ppg on just 27.2 FGA, and MJ had 37.1 ppg on 27.8 FGA. Kobe would have 43.1 ppg on Baylor's FGA, and Mj would have 44.2 ppg

Wilt took 39.5 FGA, and 06 Kobe would have had 51.4 ppg, and 87 MJ would have 52.7 ppg. Those are the only two player I can see who can consitently put up such a high volume while maintaining efficiency. There's no 3pt line, and smaller lane, but both players can hit from mid-range like West did, and both have elite post games.

I think everyone's efficiency likely takes a hit with significantly more FG attempts, but I think perimeter players who rely more on their midrange jumpshot would suffer more than low-post players shooting from closer range.

I actually think mid-range players do better in the 60's, mainly because theyr'e facing shorter, slower defenders who don't really bother their shots. Jerry West had good efficiency during this era

[70sFan]

Huh? People aren't averaging 50 ppg in this no-defense league of today. How will at least 50 players do it in a no-3pt era with a smaller lane. A league where fouls calls were nothing like today. If you were a small going into the paint.....good luck.

Well, let's put it this way, today's players were handpicked based on their level of athleticism and interest in basketball. They were picked out of a talent pool who have been playing basketball since age 8-9, some of them on a nation level since age 10-11. Between those athletes the best basketball players were chosen. In college they did every training possible to make them faster, stronger, smarter than their opponents. In the NBA dedicated training and coaching staff are thrown to the mix to improve speed, agility and strength. In the off season, most players even hit the gym early to strengthen up for the pre-season workouts. These guys are exploiting every inch and dime to maximize their capabilities.

Then come 1962, guys were basically chosen on their length and interest in basketball, if discovered that is because there was not a nation wide basketball network. Most didn't start playing organised until high school and they didn't even went on nation level until college. They didn't have hoops hanging around the neighborhood, let alone public basketball courts, to improve their game whenever they liked. There were no licensed coaches, neither coaches or specialists with professional experiences. There were no televised games to learn from neither video to analyse their own game. And, except for Wilt who trained with body builders, no one saw a weight training room because it wasn't believed to help their game.

The gap in opportunities and awareness is so big, I would be surprised if not at least 100 NBA players would be able to overpower, out-skill, outrun and outsmart their peers of the sixties for 45+ minutes in 1962. So it would just be a matter of adaptation and skills whether they would be able to close in on 50ppg. But in the Olympics different rules don't seem like a problem, so the general adaptability of these players seem fine to me.

If the question was if they were born 40-60 years earlier the task would be much different. Maybe if they were transported by surprise it would it a bit of a challenge. Otherwise it can't be that a 1962 player would be as explosive, fast and strong as any other player from the nineties and on.

Are you trying to tell me that players like Jokic, Gasol, Vucevic or Gobert are more "explosive, fast and strong" than Russell, Wilt or Bellamy? Mind you that I didn't use poor athletes, they all are decent and very good basketball players, but their athletic abilities are not close to the best centers of the 1960s.

[Samurai]

Actually, Baylor had 33.1 FGA in 1962, but only 38.3 ppg. Conversely, Kobe had 35.4 ppg on just 27.2 FGA, and MJ had 37.1 ppg on 27.8 FGA. Kobe would have 43.1 ppg on Baylor's FGA, and Mj would have 44.2 ppg

Wilt took 39.5 FGA, and 06 Kobe would have had 51.4 ppg, and 87 MJ would have 52.7 ppg. Those are the only two player I can see who can consitently put up such a high volume while maintaining efficiency. There's no 3pt line, and smaller lane, but both players can hit from mid-range like West did, and both have elite post games.

I think everyone's efficiency likely takes a hit with significantly more FG attempts, but I think perimeter players who rely more on their midrange jumpshot would suffer more than low-post players shooting from closer range.

I actually think mid-range players do better in the 60's, mainly because theyr'e facing shorter, slower defenders who don't really bother their shots. Jerry West had good efficiency during this era

They are also facing a much more packed-in defenses without the spacing that the 3-point shot affords to mid-range shooters today. West did shoot with excellent efficiency....shooting about 22 FGA's/game and a career high of 23.9. My point is that he would not be that efficient if his FGA's jumped from 22/game to 39.5/game. Also, West never averaged over 42 minutes/game, jumping up to playing 48.5 minutes/game will significantly increase his fatigue with a corresponding negative impact on his shooting efficiency.

[Bidofo]

Are you trying to tell me that players like Jokic, Gasol, Vucevic or Gobert are more "explosive, fast and strong" than Russell, Wilt or Bellamy? Mind you that I didn't use poor athletes, they all are decent and very good basketball players, but their athletic abilities are not close to the best centers of the 1960s.

You're comparing some of the greatest athletes in basketball history to relatively unathletic bigs. Yea, there are freaks in every generation, but I think the point he was trying to make was that the average athlete in the 60s is not more impressive than the average athlete since then, which is the way it should be given medicinal/technological advancements..

[Bidofo]

Something to take into account in regards to the stamina required, is that players today cover more ground than they did in the 60s. Wilt didn't really need to wander far from the paint. It's possible that this may balance out the crazy pace + 48.5 mpg, but I'm not sure. I do think it guarantees though that the player you'd need to take back must be a big, assuming perimeter players are actually playing defense on the perimeter. They just need to run down, play defense, run back down, create a paint shot. Easier said than done, but I'm looking at the Shaqs and Hakeems of the world here.

[70sFan]

Are you trying to tell me that players like Jokic, Gasol, Vucevic or Gobert are more "explosive, fast and strong" than Russell, Wilt or Bellamy? Mind you that I didn't use poor athletes, they all are decent and very good basketball players, but their athletic abilities are not close to the best centers of the 1960s.

You're comparing some of the greatest athletes in basketball history to relatively unathletic bigs. Yea, there are freaks in every generation, but I think the point he was trying to make was that the average athlete in the 60s is not more impressive than the average athlete since then, which is the way it should be given medicinal/technological advancements..

Yeah but the difference isn't as big as some implies here, especially given the difference of league size. Average center from 1960s is someone like Zelmo Beaty and he's good athlete by today standards. Even weaker players like Walter Dukes or LeRoy Ellis were very athletic, the gap is way extravagated.

[Mazter]

Are you trying to tell me that players like Jokic, Gasol, Vucevic or Gobert are more "explosive, fast and strong" than Russell, Wilt or Bellamy? Mind you that I didn't use poor athletes, they all are decent and very good basketball players, but their athletic abilities are not close to the best centers of the 1960s.

No, I'm trying to tell you that they are better and more professionally conditioned.

[70sFan]

Are you trying to tell me that players like Jokic, Gasol, Vucevic or Gobert are more "explosive, fast and strong" than Russell, Wilt or Bellamy? Mind you that I didn't use poor athletes, they all are decent and very good basketball players, but their athletic abilities are not close to the best centers of the 1960s.

No, I'm trying to tell you that they are better and more professionally conditioned.

Jokic better conditioned than Russell or Wilt? Sorry, but I don't buy that.