Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

An Unbiased Fan · Post #1 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:39 pm

How far would Cleveland go? The 2009 squad for example won 66 games and had a 8+ SRS. Would they have made the Finals? Would they have beat the Lakers?

liamliam1234 · Post #2 » by **liamliam1234** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Well, those Cavaliers did not lose because Lebron did not score well, and without Lebron they would have no offensive initiator, so it would be pretty ugly. Middling seed and second-round exit at best. We are talking one of the greatest seasons ever versus a pretty good one.

No-more-rings · Post #3 » by **No-more-rings** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:00 pm

Depends how many games Kawhi gives them.

Asking if he can beat the Celtics or Lakers is laughable though. They’d be hurting from Kawhi’s lack of playmaking compared to Lebron, and it was harder to score in those years than today.

LKN · Post #4 » by **LKN** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:03 pm

Kawhi isn't a good fit on those teams because they really needed Lebron's playmaking.

Some of the Heat teams would be a more interesting question (well probably only 2011). Do the 2011 Heat win with peak Kawhi in place of Lebron? I can see an argument that they do.

(I'm not saying Kawhi would make the Heat better overall during their run... He's a very good player but his playmaking is really pedestrian and Wade would have been required to do much more of the primary playmaking - 2011 is probably the only year where it's interesting due to Wade still being ATG or close to it and Lebron crapping himself in the finals).

Pelly24 · Post #5 » by **Pelly24** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:08 pm

I don't want to bash this question, but this isn't even one that should be asked if you know the difference in their all-around abilities and Kawhi's role on the Raptors and the Spurs. Kawhi's job for both teams is to be an unstoppable one-on-one scorer and make shots and play good defense. That's very important, but that's it. He played in very well-constructed systems that didn't burden him with any playmaking responsibilities and he thrived. LeBron James *was* the system. He was the offense initiator, the best perimeter defender, at times the defensive anchor and the best scorer without a close second option.

Kawhi is possibly a more unstoppable scorer than this version of LeBron (even though LBJ averaged like 30 on 60 TS% and played against a better defense than Kawhi's ever seen in the Celtics), but he is worse in pretty much every other conceivable way. LeBron was also probably a better defender than Kawhi is right now for these two seasons.

With Kawhi they win 55 games and get bounced in the second round at best.

Sublime187 · Post #6 » by **Sublime187** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:38 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:How far would Cleveland go? The 2009 squad for example won 66 games and had a 8+ SRS. Would they have made the Finals? Would they have beat the Lakers?

Many people consider 09 as one of the top 5 GOAT peaks and that potentially Lebron was even better in 2010. Peak Leonard is no where near that.

They would probably struggle to win 50 games (if that) considering the year after Lebron left they won like 15 games with a relatively similar squad.

I guess saying a lot worse sums it up best.

Post #7 » by **zimpy27** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:40 pm

They would have performed poorly. Worse than Spurs when led by Kawhi without even considering the lack of Pop.

Without even considering the offensive side, LeBron would have been better defensively than Kawhi on that team. Without a strong rim-protecting C (like Duncan or Gasol) the impact of Kawhi's risk-reward perimeter defense would not be better than LeBron's team defensive quarterbacking.

Dr Spaceman · Post #8 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:58 pm

They’d win like 49 games. Lebron played 1000 more minutes in 2009 than Kawhi did this year. Not to mention the immense gap between the two offensively, and Kawhi was not a good regular season defender.

Amare_1_Knicks · Post #9 » by **Amare_1_Knicks** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:07 pm

Kawhi missed 22 games last season; Lebron played in all but the last game of the season. If Kawhi can’t be counted on for north of 70 games, then I’m not sure that this team even makes the playoffs(but I suspect that they would at least make 5-8 with something like a 47-35 record).

They definitely aren’t better than a healthy Boston team, or Orlando in the east. In the west, they surely lose to the Lakers, and perhaps the Nuggets as well.

As others have mentioned, even in a best case scenario, that Cavs team was heavily reliant upon James ability to make plays and facilitate.

Ainosterhaspie · Post #10 » by **Ainosterhaspie** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:41 pm

He's not going to stop the whole Orlando team from bombing threes the whole series, or Dwight from abusing the Cavs bigs. He's not averaging 38 ppg either, never mind the extra playmaking LeBron brings to the table.

freethedevil · Post #11 » by **freethedevil** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Lebron averaged near 50 point per 100 poss on great league relative efficiency in a scoring postseason that utterly broke bpm's scoring component. Lebron's better at kawhi's best thing and the gap gets bigger everywhere else. Kawhi isn't replacing Lebron

homecourtloss · Post #12 » by **homecourtloss** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:31 pm

2009 and 2010 LeBron with plus defenders everywhere and shooters would be a frightening prospect of any team. Lowry/Green/Siakam/Bron/Gasol would be 5 plus defenders plus enough shooting to win far more than they did.

Who on the 2009 Cavs is even close to Green let alone Lowry and Gasol?

The Raps’ “supporting” cast, i.e., the ones responsible for one of the greatest post season defenses ever doesn’t get enough accolades.

Amares · Post #13 » by **Amares** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:46 pm

They wouldn't pass first round. 2009, 2010 LeBron was much better than any Kawhi version

HBK_Kliq_33 · Post #14 » by **HBK_Kliq_33** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:34 pm

They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense. Kawhi is a better scorer, defender, shooter than LeBron and can carry the offense by himself to the finals as long as he has a good enough defense supporting cast. The combination of mo williams and Jamison are better than any combined 2nd and 3rd offensive players that kawhi had with Spurs. Lamarcus is a bum in the playoffs and doesn't like being a 2nd option scorer. Yet kawhi had a 99% chance of being up 1-0 in the WCF vs Durant's warriors.

I don't see kawhi losing a series to Dwight or old KG. Dwight is overrated and had the worse finals performance for a superstar in finals history. KG was old and played pathetic in the finals. Cavs have a good enough defense and good enough role players to allow kawhi to be the man on the team. When kawhi is the clear cut man, his team hasn't lost a playoff series yet. Whether they beat lakers is the question. Kawhi already proved he can carry a teams offense by himself with raptors in the playoffs. Kawhi would do to Dwight's magic or KG's celtics what he did to Embiid's 76ers. Embiid 2019 is clearly better than 2010 KG and about equal to 2009 Dwight.

liamliam1234 · Post #15 » by **liamliam1234** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

Post #16 » by **PaulieWal** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:44 pm

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense. Kawhi is a better scorer, defender, shooter than LeBron and can carry the offense by himself to the finals as long as he has a good enough defense supporting cast. The combination of mo williams and Jamison are better than any combined 2nd and 3rd offensive players that kawhi had with Spurs. Lamarcus is a bum in the playoffs and doesn't like being a 2nd option scorer. Yet kawhi had a 99% chance of being up 1-0 in the WCF vs Durant's warriors.

I don't see kawhi losing a series to Dwight or old KG. Dwight is overrated and had the worse finals performance for a superstar in finals history. KG was old and played pathetic in the finals. Cavs have a good enough defense and good enough role players to allow kawhi to be the man on the team. When kawhi is the clear cut man, his team hasn't lost a playoff series yet. Whether they beat lakers is the question. Kawhi already proved he can carry a teams offense by himself with raptors in the playoffs. Kawhi would do to Dwight's magic or KG's celtics what he did to Embiid's 76ers. Embiid 2019 is clearly better than 2010 KG and about equal to 2009 Dwight.

The entire post is null and void when you realize the 09 Cavs do not have Lowry, FVV, and Pascal to take the playmaking burden and Kawhi is terrible at it. THe 09 Cavs offense would be nowhere as good with Kawhi instead of LeBron.

liamliam1234 · Post #17 » by **liamliam1234** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:50 pm

No part of the post is valid. It is the crowning achievement of a forum existence comprised almost solely of terrible stan takes.

LKN · Post #18 » by **LKN** » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:54 pm

Are you guys just making threads to bait / troll HBK? Lol

An Unbiased Fan · Post #19 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:08 am

liamliam1234 wrote:Lebron 2009 playoffs per 100 possessions (41.4 minutes per game): 47.5/12.3/9.8/2.2/1.2 with 3.7 turnovers per game on 61.8% true shooting (+7.4 rTS).

Kawhi 2019 playoffs per 100 possessions (39.1 minutes per game): 39.0/11.6/5.0/2.1/0.9 with 3.9 turnovers per game on 61.9% true shooting (+5.9 rTS).

Literally worse across the board except for a .01 advantage in true shooting... which vanishes as soon as we adjust for era efficiency improvements.

Just stop.

Problem here is that the first two teams Lebron faced were weak. Pistons were a 39 win team with negative SRS, and the Hawks were only a 1.70 SRS team

An Unbiased Fan · Post #20 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:10 am

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:They would go to the finals both years and probably lose to Lakers. Those cavs teams are ranked 3rd and 6th in defense.

This was actually the thing I was thinking about. Defnesively, that Cavs tream would be nasty. Much more akin to the mid 00's Piston teams. The 09 Magic themsleves were more anchored on Dwight's defense also. I'm a little surprised that eveyrone is soley focussed on the offnesive side of the ball.