#29 - GOAT peaks project (2019)

Moderators: PaulieWal, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063

User avatar
LA Bird
Starter
Posts: 2,189
And1: 1,384
Joined: Feb 16, 2015

#29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#1 » by LA Bird » Wed Oct 9, 2019 3:05 pm

1) Michael Jordan 1990-91
2) LeBron James 2012-13
3) Wilt Chamberlain 1966-67
4) Shaquille O'Neal 1999-00
5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1976-77
6) Tim Duncan 2002-03
7) Larry Bird 1985-86
8) Bill Russell 1963-64
9) Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94
10) Magic Johnson 1986-87
11) Kevin Garnett 2003-04
12) Julius Erving 1975-76
13) Bill Walton 1976-77
14) Oscar Robertson 1963-64
15) Stephen Curry 2015-16
16) Dwyane Wade 2008-09
17) Jerry West 1965-66
18) David Robinson 1994-95
19) Dirk Nowitzki 2010-11
20) Kobe Bryant 2007-08
21) Tracy McGrady 2002-03
22) Moses Malone 1982-83
23) Patrick Ewing 1989-90
24) Kevin Durant 2013-14
25) Russell Westbrook 2016-17
26) Charles Barkley 1992-93
27) Kawhi Leonard 2018-19
28) Chris Paul 2007-08

Please include at least 1 sentence of reasoning for each of your 3 picks. A simple list of names will not be counted.
If you're repeating votes from previous rounds, copy and paste the reasoning because "see previous thread for explanation" will not be counted as a valid vote.

Extended deadline: 11am October 13 Eastern Time
The deadline will be extended by 24 hours up to twice if there is less than 12 votes or there is a tie for first.


The Voting System:

Everyone gives their 1st choice (4.5 points), 2nd choice (3 points), and 3rd choice (2 points). Highest point-total wins the round.
You can use your 3 choices to vote for more than 1 season of the same player (if you think that the best 3 seasons among the players left belong all to the same player, nothing is stopping you from using all you 3 choices on that player), but you can't continue voting for other seasons of that player once he wins and gets his spot. The final list will be 1 season per player.

Thank you for your participation!

Spoiler:
freethedevil wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

Colbinii wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.

trex_8063 wrote:.

E-Balla wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Lou Fan wrote:.

Amares wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

yoyoboy wrote:.

Dr Spaceman wrote:.

dontcalltimeout wrote:.

DatAsh wrote:.

PCProductions wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

_Game7_ wrote:.

Point-Forward wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

drza wrote:.

pandrade83 wrote:.

Timmyyy wrote:.

HHera187 wrote:.

Bel wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

Vladimir777 wrote:.

Samurai wrote:.

ardee wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

Sublime187 wrote:.

Homer38 wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

JoeMalburg wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

cecilthesheep wrote:.

No-more-rings wrote:.

liamliam1234 wrote:.

HBK_Kliq_33 wrote:.
penbeast0
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Senior Mod - NBA Player Comparisons
Posts: 21,411
And1: 3,848
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Location: South Florida
   

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 3:19 pm

Mikan 49 One of the 5 players who most dominated his era. Multiple consecutive titles. Weak sauce league but all his peers are long gone and it's about time for him.
Mikan 50 See 49.
Barry 75. One of my least favorite NBA stars. Rude, conceited, opinionated. But this was the only NBA title without a HOF center until the Bad Boy Pistons in an era where centers ruled the league and Barry did it without another star player (2nd best player was either journeyman center Cliff Ray or rookie Jamaal Wilkes. Dominant playoff run finished with sweep of the 3 time 70s finalist Bullets.
Bradley Beal@RealDealBeal23
Because we can hoop!
FrogBros4Life
Sophomore
Posts: 120
And1: 118
Joined: Dec 30, 2018

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#3 » by FrogBros4Life » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:15 pm

1.) 61 Elgin Baylor -- has anyone even voted for this guy yet? Possibly the greatest player to never win a title. His production this year speaks for itself. 35ppg, 20 rebounds, 5 assists on +2.9 rTS? Yes, please. Numbers are obviously inflated a bit due to pace, but still a phenomenal season. Backed up by a PER of 28.2 and ~15 win shares. Revolutionized the game for the wing position. Set a then NBA scoring record with 71 points in a game. His 62 season is actually more impressive as a physical feat when you consider he only played on the weekends while serving in the military, but the number of games missed is too much to overlook. Good defender in addition to his offensive contributions.

2.) 19 Harden -- As good as Nash was with the ball in his hands doing everything -- shooting, dribbling, passing, driving -- Harden on offense last year was a force of nature. He literally carried his team for the majority of the regular season in ways few players have. The gimmick defense Utah threw at him in the playoffs should tell you all you need to know about how hard it is to stop him. Despite his annual post season decline, he actually had the best statistical playoffs of his career last season too. There were moments during last year's regular season where he looked absolutely unguardable (similar to regular season Steph in 16). And his per 100 possession stats for last year's regular season are on the cusp of a 50 point triple double (48 points, 10 assists and 9 rebounds on 62% TS :o )

3.) 75 Rick Barry -- Best player on a title team that overachieved by sweeping a more talented 60 win Bullets squad without homecourt advantage. Washington had 3 All Stars this season. Barry was his team's only All Star, and their next best player was a rookie. Great all around stats for the year. Lead the league in steals. Superb court vision. Could do a little bit of everything on the court. I'm tempted to change my vote to 75 McAdoo here, but for now I'll stick with Barry.
No-more-rings
Starter
Posts: 2,358
And1: 1,082
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#4 » by No-more-rings » Wed Oct 9, 2019 4:23 pm

Yay another Harden voter lol. But seriously, i was on vacation and didn’t have the time or desire to vote in the last thread. I’ll get back into it here.
trex_8063
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 8,108
And1: 4,025
Joined: Feb 24, 2013
   

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#5 » by trex_8063 » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:23 pm

1st ballot - '19 Giannis Antetokounmpo
A fairly dominant offensive player during the rs (39.3 pts/100 possessions @ +8.4% rTS, plus 8.4 ast/100 and a respectable 9.43% Modified TOV%). Finished nearly 77% at the rim while getting roughly 4 of every 7 of his attempts at said rim, and also having a .550 FTAr. I realize rules/officiating have made things easier in regards to getting to the rim or line, but those numbers even out-do Lebron last year and put Harden to shame.
Still easily an All-Star level offensive player in the playoffs, too, while arguably being a top 2 DPOY candidate and anchor (or at worst co-anchor [with Lopez]) throughout the whole season: were the league's best defense in the rs, and also performed as a 103.1 DRtg in the playoffs (which is -8.6, relative to the average offense being faced in the playoffs).


2nd ballot - '97 Karl Malone
imo, wherever Barkley is for peak, Malone should not be far behind. Peak Barkley (I went w/ '90 as his peak, btw) was one of the most dominant/reliable post scorers of all-time, far more devastating in this aspect than Karl. He was also hyper-elite on the offensive glass, and fantastic in transition (and unlike Malone, could also be the guy LEADING the break, being a very good transition passing forward). But '97 Karl was better at basically better at everything else, imo: he was a clearly better mid-range shooter, better FT-shooter, better half-court passer (they ran A LOT of off-ball screens and back-picks for cutting guards, with Malone hitting them with precision passes from the elbow; while also being fantastic passing out of the double-team), better [than any version of Barkley prior to '93, and equal(ish) to '93 and after version] defensive rebounder, and notably better defender (very crafty low-post defender, active hands, and decent pnr defender, capable of moving his feet on the perimeter).

Yeah, having Stockton to set you up sometimes certainly helps you look good; but let's not overlook that Stockton having someone like Malone----a guy who sets a fantastic screen, who has a great sense of when to roll and when to pop [and can function/score from either], who has great hands on the move, who finishes well at the rim, and who is also probably the best transition running PF in history prior to Giannis----was certainly very helpful in making him [Stockton] look good, too.

I mean, if we replace Malone with Tristan Thompson, does Stockton's career look as glossy? There's definite give and take in their relationship.


3rd ballot - '11 Dwight Howard
I reserve the right to change my 3rd ballot in this or later threads (Baylor, Harden, Nash, Davis, McAdoo all look like good candidates to me at this point, too; '09 Dwight is also a good option [or even '10]; EDIT: very unsure what to do with Mikan, but he may be a good candidate by now, too), but yeah......I'm gonna break the ice on Dwight (who I think doesn't get enough credit here for how damn good he was from '09-'12).
Really a bit of an athletic freak: though only about 6'9" without shoes, he has kinda long arms/reach, freakish ups for a guy that size, and a tremendous amount of strength (particularly in the upper body). Decent foot-speed for his size, too.

On offense, he put that athleticism to good use mostly by way of offensive rebounding (where he was near '19 Rudy Gobert territory), and in finishing at the rim. He's basically the GOAT finisher outside of prime Shaq and perhaps peak Robinson (finishing >75% from <3 ft in '10 and '11, despite huge volume there--->like 50+% of his shot load between the two years, and often going thru 2 or 3 defenders and getting And1's). His FTAr is a ridiculous .877 in '11 (is higher other years), as teams adopted a hack-a-Shaq strategy when he got the ball deep under the rim (because he was basically unstoppable otherwise if you let him get the rock that low).
He also by this point had a little bit of a simple jump-hook (with either hand) that he used quite regularly (was probably at his peak form for this particular move in '11).
He otherwise doesn't have much going for him offensively: has no jump-shot or range to speak, limited [though not terrible] FT shooter, limited repertoire of post-moves outside of the one I mentioned, not much of a passer, and a touch turnover-prone.

Still, to be clear, I'm not trying to imply offensive mediocrity on his part (many of his critics attempt to do so, and it's absolutely untrue, imo). His hands, strength, explosiveness, etc, allow him to be in a GOAT-level tier of finishers when he gets the ball near the rim, and that cannot be trivialized. And if taking a hack-a-Howard strategy, peak Howard's not as big a liability at the line as most versions of Shaq, Wilt, or Russell.
The Magic structured their offense around his inside presence, often spreading the floor with four shooters around him, essentially daring teams to not guard him one-on-one.

And defensively, well......while he doesn't have the footwork or IQ of someone like Tim Duncan [by a long shot], his athleticism again can make up for a multitude of sins (both his, or those of teammates). He anchored a -5.3 rDRTG with a cast of [in descending order of minutes]: Jameer Nelson, Brandon Bass, Jason Richardson, Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Redick, Ryan Anderson, aging Gilbert Arenas, and Quentin Richardson. They were #1 in the league in DREB% and 4th in opp eFG%.

They were also above average offensively with that cast, btw, and won 52 games with a +4.92 SRS. They lost in the first round [6 games] to a good Hawks team, but can't lay it on Dwight: although he did avg 5.5 topg in the series, he also averaged 27 ppg on 67.7% TS and grabbed 15.5 rpg, while helping to hold the Hawks to lowly 101.6 ORtg in the series (Orlando actually outscored them in the series). Dwight's entire supporting cast pretty much vanished in the series, though.
All-Time NE Fantasy Team
PG-Chauncey Billups (06-08)/Terry Porter (91-93)
SG-George Gervin (78-80)/Danny Green
SF-R. Barry (67-70)/Bruce Bowen (04-06)
PF-Ho Grant (92-94)/D. Cowens (74-76)
C-D. Robinson (94-96)/Kevin Willis (92-94)
Bill Sharman (coach)
User avatar
cecilthesheep
Junior
Posts: 499
And1: 337
Joined: Sep 17, 2018
 

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#6 » by cecilthesheep » Wed Oct 9, 2019 7:26 pm

1. 1949 George Mikan - Mikan's peak was so far above his contemporaries that I don't think I can leave him out any longer. He was the most unstoppable scorer of basketball's first decade or two, he raised his game in the playoffs to lead his team to 5 titles in 6 years and create the league's first dynasty, and this was his most dominant year.

2. 1950 George Mikan - same player, second-best year, basically the same level of performance

3. 2007 Steve Nash. I'd just rather have this guy to win a title with than anyone left. Very very close with some version of Ewing and with '97 Karl Malone, but the way Nash totally transforms an offense is not something that anyone remaining in this tier can do on either end, in that I think if you have this version of Nash your offense is guaranteed to be one of the best in the league.

Vote For Mikan To Free Cecil
All-Time Spurs

T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75
Samurai
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,988
And1: 1,667
Joined: Jul 01, 2014
     

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#7 » by Samurai » Wed Oct 9, 2019 8:29 pm

1. George Mikan 1949. I understand the concerns about the strength of his era and thus I haven't said anything about him not being voted in yet. But to keep him out of the top 25 altogether seems to be going overboard in one direction. The dominant offensive player in the game, leading the league in scoring and 8th in assists/game. But he was also the dominant defender and rebounder as well. He clearly dominated his peers to a greater extent than anyone left on the board; dropping him to #26 due to questions about league strength seems about right to me.

2. Bob McAdoo 1975. League MVP, he was an outstanding scorer, leading the league with 34.5 ppg, he also led the league in OWS, WS and WS/48. 5th in TS% and 2nd in PER. The knock on him has always been his defense, but 75 was arguably his best defensive season as well. Finished 6th in DWS, 18th in Def Rtg, and 6th in blocks/game.

3. Bob Pettit 1963. Yes, I understand his stats were more dominant in 56 and 59. But the level of competition he faced in those seasons were lower; Schayes, Johnston, Cousy, Sharman and Stokes were pretty much the next tier of stars. In 63, Pettit averaged 28.4/15.1/3.1 in a league that included stars like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, and Bellamy with next tier stars like Greer, Cousy, DeBusschere, Howell, Gola, Guerin, and Wilkens. But Pettit also raised his game in the playoffs, with a 31.8/15/3 line and leading with a 26.1 PER and .244 WS/48. He also recorded the highest TS% of his playoff career with a .543. Era adjustment is not a precise science and those who penalize his era more heavily will have Pettit farther down the list while those who penalize his era less will have him higher. Your mileage may vary.
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 647
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#8 » by liamliam1234 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:20 am

I am holding off my vote (I will vote, but I am still in deciding phase between 2007 and 2005 Nash and for who deserves vote #3), but I think now that Paul is in, it would be a good time to repost my Nash case. I have been linking it for reference, but I have updated it with enough new material from each thread (including a bit from LA Bird’s case in the prior thread) that I think posting it again in full will hopefully sway some of Paul’s supporters over to the other guard with undeniably comparable impact and overall excellence. I sought to cover everything, from impact metrics (phenomenal) to basic box scores (superb postseasons) to team performance (SRS and relative offence) to highlights to even his far too excessively maligned “negatives”. Please, if your vote is open, give it a glance. Again, the bulk of it is taken from Backpicks, because it is a useful starting frame, but I tried to work in a large amount of accompanying material beyond that profile.

liamliam1234 wrote:For starters, I highly recommend everyone go through elgee's Backpicks profile on Nash; if you do, you can skip most of this portion, because I am going to go through the contents here, but I know some people simply hate opening new tabs. Alternatively, it provides an excellent collection of videos of his play. I also recommend listening to the recent episode of his Thinking Basketball podcast where he discusses the all-time greatest playmakers (per a playmaking metric he put together); Nash is ranked second below only Magic (shocking). I have previously said I think elgee's work on passing is maybe his most valuable contribution to the broader discussion of basketball, and that makes him an essential starting point in any discussion of a player who draws a large proportion of their value from their passing ability. And since I am likely to cover multiple years, this type of broader look works well.

The article starts off with a strong summary:
Image
Key Stats and Trends
- Spearheaded the most efficient offenses in NBA history
- All-time combination of passing, creating and scoring efficiency
- Performs extremely well in non-box value metrics
At his apex, Steve Nash was arguably the most aggressive attacker in NBA history. With the ball, he forced defenses to respond to his passing and scoring threats simultaneously; sleep on his scoring and he burned you with a bucket, respect his scoring and he burned you with a pass. And he was the most prolific passer in NBA history.

After some discussion of his development in Dallas, we arrive at the core of what makes Nash who he is:
Nash delivered more quality passes, per possession, than anyone I’ve ever studied on film. In Dallas, he was already competing with the greatest passers in history, slinging a “good” or “great” pass on over 5 plays per 100. But in Phoenix, surrounded by better athletes and shooters that spaced the floor, Nash uncorked good passes on almost 9 percent of possessions! While Magic played in a time where there were fewer great passing opportunities, Nash’s wild forays into the paint created many of those small windows. If Magic exploited, Nash explored; he’d tug on defenses like a puppet master, waiting to see if big men would overplay his scoring while hoping help defenders would rotate to the wrong man… It’s unlikely any player in history created as many open shot opportunities for their teammates.

And that creation translated. Here (https://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/indexe598.html?p=6205) is a list of, per the blog's metric, the best offences ever. 2007 Suns at #1, 2005 Suns at #2, 2010 Suns at #4 (who needs D'Antoni/Diaw/Marion?), 2004 Mavericks at #6 (elgee's own calculus puts it higher, but he acknowledges they kind-of cheated to do so), 2006 Suns at #10 (who needs Amar'e?), 2009 Suns at #11, 2002 Mavericks at #19... This excludes modern teams, but the general point holds. Even if these rosters were offensively focused, Nash was the clear common element, and he was the force elevating them into the greatest ever. And elgee's own calculations agree:
Nash’s incredible passing and relentless creation spearheaded a plethora of historically great offences... His decade of offensive wizardry on two offence-first teams meant he played on the best offences in NBA history through his career and a mind-boggling six of the 15 best “healthy” offences ever:Imagehttp://www.backpicks.com/2016/08/01/the-best-healthy-offenses-of-all-time/

The semi-well-known "top two offence for a decade" statistic is insane enough on its own. But that offence carried over through perpetually changing rosters, into the playoffs, and across time.
These attacks weren’t regular season frauds, either. The best four-year stretch for a playoff offence is held by Nash’s Suns, who were +10.7 in 51 playoff games between 2005 and 2008 (and his Dallas teams were in the top-10 too). Most importantly, all of this happened with lineups shifting around him:
Image

I took this next graph from egee’s Karl Malone profile (hence the Jazz highlighting); take a look at the top right corner:ImageI was not an avid viewer for this stretch, but I am sure the gap between Nash's offences and the rest of the league must have seemed outright comical. In 2005 specifically, the Suns set a record for relative offensive rating, with a substantial lead over second. And that one-way impact is the best on the list, ahead of even the defence of the 1997 Bulls and the 1964 Celtics. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_AdaCB40YpgZGY1cGZheV8xcHM/view)
Nash’s box stats compare favorably to the other modern offensive giants. Mathematically, his elite efficiency makes him one of the most valuable scorers ever. Using Jacob Goldstein’s method, Nash’s five-year run of volume and efficiency was the third most productive in NBA history, behind only Steph Curry and Michael Jordan.Imagehttps://replacementplayer.wordpress.com/2017/08/22/efficere-a-measure-of-shot-efficiency/
Per the scouting report, he could also ramp up his scoring when teams overplayed his passing: He tallied 25-point games nearly a quarter of the time during his Phoenix postseasons. And of course, Nash was the creation king:
Image

In Goldstein's career volume/efficiency, Nash is comfortably at the top; this is a peaks project, and having your prime be in third behind two guys admitted weeks ago hardly matters, but just wanted to clarify. And he maintained his offensive excellence into the postseason, both in impact and in scoring. (https://web.archive.org/web/20111121071127/http://www.backpicks.com:80/2011/08/15/adjusting-playoff-stats-part-iii-30-post-merger-stars/).
Nash’s impact footprint extends beyond these team trends and Phoenix’s enormous single-season turnaround in 2005. His presence in the lineup correlated heavily with his team’s success, ranking in the top-10 in both WOWY and regressed game-level data. At the lineup level, he’s second in the Databall era in scaled offensive adjusted plus-minus (APM), behind only LeBron James. And his best scaled (overall) APM seasons are in the 99th percentile historically. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ukBETcjKmDbABCnlfz8LoHeQFmu7nq4pOAqns9KkfBk/edit#gid=1011679855)

Here Nash is again arguably undersold a bit by elgee’s phrasing here. In WOWYR and game-level regression, Nash is not just top ten; as you can see in the metric profile at the beginning of this walkthrough, Nash is fifth in prime WOWYR, and in game-level regression, he is third. In AuPM, his offensive rating carries him to seventh among modern players, below four guys admitted in the top twelve and then Chris Paul and Manu. And in Engelmann’s PI RAPM data, Nash goes from 10th (probably undersold) to 4th to 2nd, with an average only trailing Manu and Duncan over that three-year period. Now, these are obviously not the end-all-be-all metrics, for reasons apparent as soon as you look at the other names on these lists, but I think everyone here acknowledges impact is at least a worthwhile piece of the puzzle, and across the board they clearly show Nash's offensive impact was enough to match the overall "impact" of anyone. If BPM is designed to approximate impact, using actual impact metrics should be more than enough to make up for his deficiencies in that flawed box-score calculus.

Speaking of impact, because we are at the box creation portion of the profile, I think this is as good a time as any to include the most relevant portion of that playmaker podcast episode I mentioned earlier:
He owns the best playoff run ever, according to this [playmaking] model, and it is by a large degree. In 2007, the model spits out a +2.9 value. I think the next best is around +2.5-2.6. If you are wondering what happened in those two rounds in 2007 (which I view as Nash’s peak season; absolutely unbelievable tour de force): box creation estimates of 17 shots created per 100 for his teammates, and a passer rating of 9.5/10. Just absolutely carving up defences with his playmaking.

I had a good bit of fun going through Basketball-Reference and looking at his effect on his teammate's effective field goal percentage, especially compared to other point guards (necessary because NBA.com on/off data is not available that far back). 2005 Nash had an estimated team shooting impact of +6.8/+3.7 (regular seasons / playoffs, respectively), 2006 Nash had a team shooting impact of +4.9/+6, and 2007 Nash had a team shooting impact of +8.2/+3.6. With the acknowledgement those are not the definitive values, as far as I can tell, no other passer comes close to that impact. Beyond that, further comparative impact statistics from NBA.com are available here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1892754#p78550299

That covers most of the case for his offence. Well, what about his defence? Look, people have their opinions, but by basically every objective indication, Nash was not a significant negative, by RAPM, on/off, or otherwise.
His physical tools left him shorthanded on [the defensive] end and he was often hidden on the opponent’s weakest perimeter player. He had decently quick feet for much of his prime — a relic of his soccer-playing days — and was crafty enough to recognize sets and hedge in front of a screen, a common practice of his. But even when he stayed in front of a good penetrator, his size still presented mismatch problems… Nash’s biggest detriment, without question, was his size. He was simply too small to affect opposing shots, even when he played “good defense.” His double-teams were less effective because of this, rarely able to bother post players or disrupt an offense. Much like on offense, his defensive strength was his awareness. He was quite good at rotating to the right spot and positioning himself for charges, on or off the ball. In my tracking, he forced 1.2 turnovers per 100 that weren’t counted by traditional scorekeeping methods. This is a small sample, but it’s reflective of his ability to make up for some of his defensive shortcomings with guile and basketball IQ. While his lack of verticality or physical strength curtailed the value of his team rotations, he could still check the boxes on a number of help plays, preventing teams from finding easy looks or minimizing their power plays… He provided value with good rotations and by forcing more turnovers than his steals per game suggest. Point guard defense is rarely game-changing, and Nash’s D was further muted because he could hide on weaker offensive players in many situations; his defensive APM was right around (or even slightly above) average in five seasons between 2001-11. Based on all of this, I consider Nash a shade below average on defense in Phoenix and slightly worse in his Dallas days.

A fair number of you are likely still saying it does not matter, because he was still a team handicap. In a literal sense compared to, say, Jason Kidd, sure. But in terms of team results? Not really; again, point guard defence generally is not a major needle-mover, as we can see when Nash's teams actually invested in some paint protection:
Some of Nash’s most impressive team results were produced with traditional lineups. In 2006, the Suns brought in Kurt Thomas to provide some muscle at center. In 50 games with Thomas, Phoenix was 3.6 points better than average on offense…and 3.4 points better on defense (6.6 SRS or 59-win pace)... This echoed what happened in Dallas in 2001, when the Nash-Nowitzki-Finley trio paired with a traditional defensive center, Shawn Bradley, and crushed opponents by a league-best 17 points per 100.

And our very own LA Bird arrived at a similar conclusion four years ago, in the last peaks project:
There is actually no stat supporting the widespread myths that Nash regularly gets burnt by opponent PGs because of his weak and slow defense.

Team opponent PG efficiency relative to league average
2005: -0.7
2006: -1.0
2007: -1.7
2008: +0.7
2009: +0.7
2010: -0.5
2011: -0.2
2012: +0.3
Source: hoopsstats.com

Individual opponent PER relative to league average
2005: ? (can't find data)
2006: +0.3
2007: +1.2
2008: +2.5
2009: +2.2
2010: +0.7
2011: -0.7
2012: -0.7
Source: 82games.com

Defensive RAPM numbers from J.E.'s most recent data (positive is better):
2005: -1.22
2006: -0.56
2007: -0.12
2008: -0.05
2009: -0.48
2010: -0.42
2011: +0.43
2012: +0.43
Source: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0

Nash's defense is a little below average but not exactly awful. And the fact that he is often among league leaders in offensive fouls drawn suggests that he at least puts in the effort to play defense.

Offensive fouls drawn
2006: 38 (19th)
2007: 62 (6th)
2008: 32 (26th)
2009: 53 (1st)
2010: 37 (14th)
Source: nbaminer.com

IMO, Nash's defensive deficiencies are largely overblown. People harping about his defense while ignoring his GOAT-level offensive impact is missing the bigger picture as Nash is still a massive impact player despite his defense (Suns 14.2 SRS dropoff in 16 games without Nash from 05~07 is the largest margin in ElGee's WOWY data).

Having covered most of elgee's profile, where does that leave us in relation to other players?
Between his historically good shooting and passing, and the data suggesting nearly unrivaled value in Phoenix, I wonder if I’m underselling Nash’s peak. If I penalize him slightly less for poor fit, I’m still not sure he could crack the prestigious top-18, but I’m also not comfortable shaving too much more off his apex (which bounds him in the low 20s). With one of the five or six greatest offensive peaks ever, Nash lands at No. 19.Image

That MVP peak may not initially seem spectacular, but it actually is one of the highest peaks we have left. Durant matches or tops him, but otherwise, not Barkley, not Chris Paul, not Malone... Giannis and Westbrook and Harden are not covered by these profiles, so I will acknowledge they may have MVP impacts of their own which stand up well. But expanding beyond the calculus here is still favourable to Nash (per FTD :wink:):
Here's the top SRS +/- impact evaluations
+7.5 -> 2012 Lebron
+7.25-> 2009-10 and 2013 Lebron, 1989-91 Jordan
+7 -> 2000 Shaq, 1993 Olajuwon, 1992 and 1988 Jordan
+6.75-> 2001 Shaq, 2011/14/16 Lebron, 1993 Jordan
+6.5-> 2002 Shaq, 2002-03 Duncan, 1977 Kareem, 2017 Lebron, 1994 Hakeem
+6.25 -> 1996 Jordan, 1973-74 Kareem, 2004 Garnett, 2015 Lebron, 1987 Magic, 2007 Nash, 1988-89 and 95 Hakeem, 1962-64 Russell, 1977 Walton, 1964 and 1967 Chamberlain, 2017 Curry
+6-> 2005-06 Nash, 1991 and 1995-96 Robinson, 1960-61 and 1965 Russell, 1968 West
For the next score I'll only list the peaks I haven't mentioned yet:
+5.75-> 1985 Bird, 2006 Kobe, 2009 Wade, 2016 Paul (when healthy)
For reference, 2019 Giannis and Curry have a +/- evaluation of +5.62 and +5.5 respectively.

As you may notice, Nash is the only one yet to be admitted to the project, and stacks up comfortably well with basically every player we had in our top fifteen. He is well, well, well past overdue. Now all that is left is to pick the seasons.

In 2005, against the Mavericks team which effectively low-balled him back to Phoenix, Nash had one of the most spectacular offensive series ever:

    Game 1: 11/13 in 31 minutes of a blowout win
    Game 2: 23/13 in a 2-point loss (+5 for the game)
    Game 3: 27/17 in a comfortable win
    Game 4: 48/5 on 20/28 shooting in a double-digit loss; the Suns famously had bad results when Nash was pushed to score more, and this has to be the prime example why Nash preferred to focus on setting up his teammates
    Game 5: 34/12(/13); back to balanced devastation
    Game 6: 39/12(/9); think Cuban got the message?
Overall, Nash averaged 30/12(/6.5) on 64% true shooting against the ninth ranked defence that year. If we were doing peak series, this would almost certainly go in the top twenty.

Anyway, his scoring explosion generally carried over into the Spurs series, but after two narrow home losses despite putting up an efficient 29/13 and 29/15, the numbers dipped back down, and the Suns fell into a 3-0 hole which ended in a 4-1 series loss. Still, he finished this postseason with 24/11(/5) averages on 60.4% true shooting, and (again) a historic and unprecedented relative postseason offence.

2007 was something of a different animal; watch the assists:

    Game 1 (Lakers): 20/10 in a warm-up win
    Game 2: 16/14 in 25 minutes of a blowout win
    Game 3: 10/13 in a loss
    Game 4: 17/23 :lol:
    Game 5: 17/10 to close out the series

    Game 1 (Spurs): 31/8 on 11/18 shooting in a close loss
    Game 2: 20/16 in a blow-out win
    Game 3: 16/11 in a close loss
    Game 4: 24/15 in a win
    Game 5 ( :evil: ): 19/12 in a three-point loss without half the starters
    Game 6: 18/14 in the close-out loss
Playoff averages of 18.9/13.3, with a 55.8 assist percentage; the only one to surpass the former is Magic, and the only ones to surpass or even approach the latter were guys with no more than five games played.

And finally, for you visual “learners” (passing highlights start at 9:28):
freethedevil
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,157
And1: 2,119
Joined: Dec 09, 2018
         

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#9 » by freethedevil » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:19 am

freethedevil wrote:2019 giannis
-> anchored a historically great team on both ends, both as the primary facilitator, defensive anchor, and scoring weapon. It took an atg championship winning defense giving him the pistons treatment to stop him and even then it was by the slimmest of margins. His decimation of a strong celtics defense was quite impressive as well. His passing limitations cost him vs the raptors but no one yet to be listed is strong enough of an offensive threat to warrant anything close to the defensive attention giannis warranted and when you add that to being one of the game's best scorers and a top 5 defender, you get a worthy pick for this spot. He has the highest corp +/- evaluation and the highest corp.


07 Nash. Led an atg offense and i boost him over 05 nash due to suns nash playing a healthy duncan.

not sure who to vote for 3, i'll let other people sway jme.
euroleague
Head Coach
Posts: 6,060
And1: 1,162
Joined: Mar 26, 2014
 

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#10 » by euroleague » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:57 pm

1) Mikan 49 - too dominant in his era to not be on here, changed the way the game is played, rewrote the rule book, etc

2) Karl Malone 98 - more dominant player than in 97. He was more consistent in the postseason, and had a more methodical approach. Elite player often overlooked because he molded his game to fit the team, not the other way around

3) Isiah Thomas 90 - dominant postseason, one of the best title runs of any team ever, his leadership, playmaking and intangibles are often overlooked in favor of more gaudy stats. He transformed a team with basically no offensive talent into a very good offensive team. When he was injured in 91, the team fell off sharply - detailing the narrative that he wasn’t the team’s engine
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 647
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#11 » by liamliam1234 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:41 pm

I jinxed it last time, but that should definitely be enough for Mikan. :lol:

1. 2007 Steve Nash
2. 2005 Steve Nash
3. 2006 Steve Nash

Reasons for Nash generally outlined in prior comment. Best playoff passing and impact metrics in 2007, best playoff scoring in 2005 and best team offence, and solid carry-job with strong shooting and on/off impact in 2006.

Not remotely locking myself to this order (or to 2006 Nash at all) for next time, but figured I may as well submit a vote in case this gets called early. Still on the radar are Giannis, Karl Malone, I guess Bob Pettit, and maybe Artis Gilmore if 70sFan makes as strong a case as I hope he can.
User avatar
ardee
RealGM
Posts: 12,824
And1: 3,946
Joined: Nov 16, 2011
Location: Caught in the undertow
   

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#12 » by ardee » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:00 pm

1. 1998 Karl Malone

Fairly impressive year honestly. Stockton was well past his prime, and also injured for once. For Malone to drag this team to 62 wins... it's very impressive. This time he kept up the performances on the big stage too, and his game 5 against the Bulls is honestly an ATG Finals performance. I think even if he didn't deserve the MVP this year, it was very close between him and Jordan.

2. 2007 Steve Nash

It's close between this and '05. '05 had the ridiculous Playoff series against the Mavs which is quite possibly the best series by a PG other than Magic. I do think '07's RS was better though, the numbers bear it out pretty clearly. Not to mention Amare's production dropped and the '07 Suns were still a better team. I think this edges it for '07.

3. 2005 Steve Nash

Clear MVP for me, I mean no disrespect but I think only a casual fan would take Shaq over him this year.
No-more-rings
Starter
Posts: 2,358
And1: 1,082
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#13 » by No-more-rings » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:12 pm

1. 2019 Harden- As said before, carried the Rockets to 53 wins and 2nd ranked offense with Paul in major decline and playing only 58 games. Put up a pretty good series against the Warriors, maybe the best of anyone against them that year?

2. 2005 Nash- Same stuff i said before, monster offensive impact despite underwhelming box scores. Great playoff run, put on a clinic against the Mavs, and would’ve had a better chance vs the Spurs if not for the Joe Johnson injury.

3. 2018 Harden- Tough call vs some other nash years, but he wasn’t much worse than 2019 and showed he can be the best player on a super elite team that pushed the Warriors to the limit. Arguably win it all if Paul stays healthy. He’s not as good offensively as any Nash year, but shown he can have some value on defense through post defense and steals, Nash offers nothing.

Take note though that i’m getting the super elite offensive players out of the way first, then i can look at guys like Dwight, Davis, Alonzo, Giannis etc.

I’m not buying the Mikan stuff at all and honestly will be kind of silly if he goes this high. Putting up stats against a bunch of scrubs isn’t impressive.
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 647
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#14 » by liamliam1234 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:46 pm

No-more-rings wrote:He’s not as good offensively as any Nash year, but shown he can have some value on defense through post defense and steals, Nash offers nothing.


:(
I feel like other people have done a good job congregating the numbers which effectively disprove this notion of Nash, and I think this take is a bit half-baked in light of that. Harden is a far lazier defender, and his overall turnover impact is very likely not as high as Nash’s even despite his advantage in steals (see all the bits about Nash’s charge-taking not showing up on the basic stat-sheet). And Harden’s post defence has been exaggerated so much it is basically a meme. I am not saying there is no case that Harden was marginally better on defence, but even that has yet to really be backed up by any numerical argument. And I am confident it would be marginal, and a marginal added defensive impact should not outweigh what you perceive (and I agree) is a fair offensive advantage for Nash.

Also, more specifically, I am curious, as someone who values playoffs at least somewhat highly, how do you weigh Nash’s 2007 all-time passing postseason against Harden’s 2018 postseason dip?
No-more-rings
Starter
Posts: 2,358
And1: 1,082
Joined: Oct 04, 2018

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#15 » by No-more-rings » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:50 pm

liamliam1234 wrote:

:(
I feel like other people have done a good job congregating the numbers which effectively disprove this notion of Nash, and I think this take is a bit half-baked in light of that. Harden is a far lazier defender, and his overall turnover impact is very likely not as high as Nash’s even despite his advantage in steals (see all the bits about Nash’s charge-taking not showing up on the basic stat-sheet). And Harden’s post defence has been exaggerated so much it is basically a meme. I am not saying there is no case that Harden was marginally better on defence, but even that has yet to really be backed up by any numerical argument. And I am confident it would be marginal, and a marginal added defensive impact should not outweigh what you perceive (and I agree) is a fair offensive advantage for Nash.

Well i guess it’s a matter of whether you live and die by “numerical arguments”. What your eye sees matters too. And what are you talking about in regards to it being disproven, to my knowledge Nash’s defense was still shown as a negative by various DRAPM sources that i’m aware of.

Besides that i’m not going to get into an argument that was similar to Eballa’s on Nash vs Harden about how “both we’re negative by DRAPM but Harden’s was worse so he’s definitely the worse defender”

Harden’s post defense is not exaggerated. I’m going to see if i can find any good video evidence of him being an above average defender when trying. That is since people are pushing back so hard against it, and against Harden in general. If i fail to do so, then by all means remain skeptical. But I think it’s still something that should probably be looked at beyond just narratives or whatever.

Harden went 33rd in the 2015 project, with plenty of knowledgeable posters voting him in, he’s had better seasons since then so I don’t understand all the hard pushback for him to go perhaps a few spots higher. Won’t happen I don’t think though, the panel has been pretty anti-Harden as it is.

For what it’s worth on their offense, I didn’t mean to imply it’s a decent advantage for Nash, i think it’s fairly small depending on the years.

liamliam1234 wrote:Also, more specifically, I am curious, as someone who values playoffs at least somewhat highly, how do you weigh Nash’s 2007 all-time passing postseason against Harden’s 2018 postseason dip?

We’ve kind of been over Nash’s postseason though. And even though his passing may have been great, his scoring seen a pretty big drop enough where I’m taking 2005 over 2007. Like even with an increased passing, his postseason overall was definitely a dropoff.

Harden’s drop off is visible but nothing we haven’t seen from a lot or most superstars before. It wasn’t worse than 2014 Kd’s who was already voted in, or a few of Curry’s years.

For starters he had a +20.1 on/off, and yes that includes the defense being much better with him on court. It’s fine to not weigh on/off for a sample that small, but it’s there so i’m going to use it.

So nearly 29 ppg and 7 apg on lower turnovers than usual (3.8), scoring efficiency was mediocre but his overall production was still efficient if he had a 24.8 PER and a 7.8 BPM.

And if people want to keep ignoring how they went up on 3-2 against a warriors that had all of KD, Klay, Curry and Green healthy go ahead. There was 2 straight games where they absolutely locked the Warriors up, you can debate how much Harden had to do with that but he was not out there just being a turnstile on defense like people probably believe.

Nash has been on so many absolute atrocious defenses, it’s hard for me to believe he’s ever been anything but a real negative. See 25th ranked Mavs in 02, 26th ranked Mavs in 04, 26th ranked 09 Suns, 23rd ranked Suns in 2010, 25th in 2011, 24th in 2012.

At some point we can’t just not look at him as part of the problem.
Vladimir777
Pro Prospect
Posts: 903
And1: 656
Joined: May 12, 2018
 

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#16 » by Vladimir777 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:52 pm

It’s funny how many people voted for the first few spots and then disappeared. If I vote for something, I’ll see it to the end.
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 647
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#17 » by liamliam1234 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:14 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Well i guess it’s a matter of whether you live and die by “numerical arguments”. What your eye sees matters too. And what are you talking about in regards to it being disproven, to my knowledge Nash’s defense was still shown as a negative by various DRAPM sources that i’m aware of.


Usually weak negative to neutral, and we are talking about how he compares to Harden.

Besides that i’m not going to get into an argument that was similar to Eballa’s on Nash vs Harden about how “both we’re negative by DRAPM but Harden’s was worse so he’s definitely the worse defender”


I am not saying that necessarily. My point is that Harden is not remotely advantaged.

Harden’s post defense is not exaggerated. I’m going to see if i can find any good video evidence of him being an above average defender when trying. That is since people are pushing back so hard against it, and against Harden in general. If i fail to do so, then by all means remain skeptical. But I think it’s still something that should probably be looked at beyond just narratives or whatever.


:-?

Harden went 33rd in the 2015 project, with plenty of knowledgeable posters voting him in, he’s had better seasons since then so I don’t understand all the hard pushback for him to go perhaps a few spots higher. Won’t happen I don’t think though, the panel has been pretty anti-Harden as it is.


I personally am not pushing back against Harden as a vote in isolation; I am pushing back against him compared with Nash.

Also, the panel was all over the place and had a ton of recency bias (look at Davis and Howard).

We’ve kind of been over Nash’s postseason though. And even though his passing may have been great, his scoring seen a pretty big drop enough where I’m taking 2005 over 2007. Like even with an increased passing, his postseason overall was definitely a dropoff.


I tried to show it was not a dropoff, but you dismissed my arguments. Which you can do, but...

For starters he had a +20.1 on/off, and yes that includes the defense being much better with him on court. It’s fine to not weigh on/off for a sample that small, but it’s there so i’m going to use it.


You do remember completely dismissing me showing Nash’s 2007 postseason impact metrics were better than in 2005 (and better than any of Harden’s postseasons), right?

There was 2 straight games where they absolutely locked the Warriors up, you can debate how much Harden had to do with that but he was not out there just being a turnstile on defense like people probably believe.


He was playing next to four extremely strong defenders. How often did Nash ever have that luxury? No one ever said bad defenders inherently cripple every defence. In the same sense one good defender cannot carry a bunch of scrubs, one bad defender cannot totally tank an otherwise stout team.

Nash has been on so many absolute atrocious defenses, it’s hard for me to believe he’s ever been anything but a real negative. See 25th ranked Mavs in 02, 26th ranked Mavs in 04, 26th ranked 09 Suns, 23rd ranked Suns in 2010, 25th in 2011, 24th in 2012.

At some point we can’t just not look at him as part of the problem.


This is also something I felt I very thoroughly addressed, and it is frustrating to see you again just kind-of dismiss it off-hand. :(

elgee wrote:His physical tools left him shorthanded on [the defensive] end and he was often hidden on the opponent’s weakest perimeter player. He had decently quick feet for much of his prime — a relic of his soccer-playing days — and was crafty enough to recognize sets and hedge in front of a screen, a common practice of his. But even when he stayed in front of a good penetrator, his size still presented mismatch problems… Nash’s biggest detriment, without question, was his size. He was simply too small to affect opposing shots, even when he played “good defense.” His double-teams were less effective because of this, rarely able to bother post players or disrupt an offense. Much like on offense, his defensive strength was his awareness. He was quite good at rotating to the right spot and positioning himself for charges, on or off the ball. In my tracking, he forced 1.2 turnovers per 100 that weren’t counted by traditional scorekeeping methods. This is a small sample, but it’s reflective of his ability to make up for some of his defensive shortcomings with guile and basketball IQ. While his lack of verticality or physical strength curtailed the value of his team rotations, he could still check the boxes on a number of help plays, preventing teams from finding easy looks or minimizing their power plays… He provided value with good rotations and by forcing more turnovers than his steals per game suggest. Point guard defense is rarely game-changing, and Nash’s D was further muted because he could hide on weaker offensive players in many situations; his defensive APM was right around (or even slightly above) average in five seasons between 2001-11. Based on all of this, I consider Nash a shade below average on defense in Phoenix and slightly worse in his Dallas days.
elgee wrote:Some of Nash’s most impressive team results were produced with traditional lineups. In 2006, the Suns brought in Kurt Thomas to provide some muscle at center. In 50 games with Thomas, Phoenix was 3.6 points better than average on offense…and 3.4 points better on defense (6.6 SRS or 59-win pace)... This echoed what happened in Dallas in 2001, when the Nash-Nowitzki-Finley trio paired with a traditional defensive center, Shawn Bradley, and crushed opponents by a league-best 17 points per 100.
LA Bird wrote:There is actually no stat supporting the widespread myths that Nash regularly gets burnt by opponent PGs because of his weak and slow defense.

Team opponent PG efficiency relative to league average
2005: -0.7
2006: -1.0
2007: -1.7
2008: +0.7
2009: +0.7
2010: -0.5
2011: -0.2
2012: +0.3
Source: hoopsstats.com

Individual opponent PER relative to league average
2005: ? (can't find data)
2006: +0.3
2007: +1.2
2008: +2.5
2009: +2.2
2010: +0.7
2011: -0.7
2012: -0.7
Source: 82games.com

Defensive RAPM numbers from J.E.'s most recent data (positive is better):
2005: -1.22
2006: -0.56
2007: -0.12
2008: -0.05
2009: -0.48
2010: -0.42
2011: +0.43
2012: +0.43
Source: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/teutg7zvxudqnlw/AAAUkNkDUG0KWeewPZbnwS2ja?dl=0

Nash's defense is a little below average but not exactly awful. And the fact that he is often among league leaders in offensive fouls drawn suggests that he at least puts in the effort to play defense.

Offensive fouls drawn
2006: 38 (19th)
2007: 62 (6th)
2008: 32 (26th)
2009: 53 (1st)
2010: 37 (14th)
Source: nbaminer.com

IMO, Nash's defensive deficiencies are largely overblown. People harping about his defense while ignoring his GOAT-level offensive impact is missing the bigger picture as Nash is still a massive impact player despite his defense (Suns 14.2 SRS dropoff in 16 games without Nash from 05~07 is the largest margin in ElGee's WOWY data).
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 647
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#18 » by liamliam1234 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:15 pm

Vladimir777 wrote:It’s funny how many people voted for the first few spots and then disappeared. If I vote for something, I’ll see it to the end.


Feel free to join in; we could use the extra activity.
Vladimir777
Pro Prospect
Posts: 903
And1: 656
Joined: May 12, 2018
 

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#19 » by Vladimir777 » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:39 am

liamliam1234 wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:It’s funny how many people voted for the first few spots and then disappeared. If I vote for something, I’ll see it to the end.


Feel free to join in; we could use the extra activity.


Honestly, I would love to, but I just am not knowledgeable enough, and don't want to skew the results with my lack of historical and statistical knowledge. But I should start discussing in the threads more to potentially drum up more interest from more seasoned posters.

Thanks for the invite!
User avatar
cecilthesheep
Junior
Posts: 499
And1: 337
Joined: Sep 17, 2018
 

Re: #29 - GOAT peaks project (2019) 

Post#20 » by cecilthesheep » Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:28 pm

Vladimir777 wrote:
liamliam1234 wrote:
Vladimir777 wrote:It’s funny how many people voted for the first few spots and then disappeared. If I vote for something, I’ll see it to the end.


Feel free to join in; we could use the extra activity.


Honestly, I would love to, but I just am not knowledgeable enough, and don't want to skew the results with my lack of historical and statistical knowledge. But I should start discussing in the threads more to potentially drum up more interest from more seasoned posters.

Thanks for the invite!

Have you seen some of these votes? No pressure if you don't want to participate, but I certainly think you're qualified.
All-Time Spurs

T. Parker '13 | J. Silas '76 | J. Moore '83
G. Gervin '78 | M. Ginóbili '08 | A. Robertson '88
K. Leonard '17 | S. Elliott '95 | B. Bowen '05
T. Duncan '03 | L. Aldridge '18 | T. Cummings '90
D. Robinson '95 | A. Gilmore '83 | S. Nater '75

Return to Player Comparisons