The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread

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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#21 » by 70sFan » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:13 pm

limbo wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do we see a path for him being a superstar if he isn't the prime playmaker or prime defender?


This is a very good point i've been wrestling with myself, and you can add the fact that he's a weak outside shooter to it. In my view, that puts a ceiling on how good he can be offensively without significant improvements in those areas.

I've been impressed with his off-ball movement, offensive awareness and it's evident he's got a soft touch for finishing around the rim (aided tremendously by his insane athleticism and strength), but if the way he's playing so far in the preseason is any indication of the future, it's hard for me to see him having elite impact when he's not even being used as a catalyst offensively.

I like how Gentry's using him in the halfcourt, though. They have him staying on the weakside waiting for a screen and then just run around the screen and attack the basket with momentum. It's very hard to stop him when he has space to drive into the paint and he can make the smart pass from there if he can't finish himself.

That's basically all he did in the halfcourt vs the Bulls, and some improvised cuts to the basket. Good teams will adjust their defense and take that play away, and shooting 12/13 is an anomaly (also it's preseason vs. the Bulls...). Once that is countered, how many tools does Zion have left? He can't shoot. He can't consistently penetrate from the perimeter with his size and weight (+ defense playing him loose because he can't shoot).He makes smart passes but he's not an elite playmaker, he's not a threat to run pick and rolls. He's not really a post player either. He can bully smaller matchups occasionally, but he can't consistently score from the post due to his size and limited arsenal.

Compared to rookie LeBron. Bron was slimmer which meant he had better motor/stamina, was faster and more nimble, thus a more reliable driving threat. Bron was also taller, which means it's harder to contest his shots (Zion is not only guard-sized, but also has a shot that is slow and has a low release point - dude got blocked like three times in Summer League attempting normal shots). LeBron was a better playmaker (although Zion is also impressive, no doubt). And most importantly, LeBron actually had an outside shot. Granted it was very inconsistent but he could still effectively punish teams with it every other game. Zion doesn't even attempt to shoot if he's not completely open for the most part. LeBron's early shooting woes had a lot to due with poor shot selection, other minor kinks. Zion seems to be closer to needing to reconstruct his entire shooting form than anything else. Also, rookie Bron played in an era where 3-pt shots were still taken in moderation with a grain of salt. The league has a better understanding on how to exploit a weak outside shooter than it did in 2004...

I still believe Zion can be relatively efficient and effective if the Pelicans decide to play run and gun basketball. Defenses in the regular season are much more relaxed and indifferent. There's more transition opportunities where Zion is elite. That being said, it will be interesting to see how much the Pels decide to push the tempo and how the core of Zo/Jrue/Zion/Ingram will play off each other. What a set of characters, lmao... Zion can't shoot, Lonzo can't finish and Ingram can't pass the ball to save his life. Should be entertaining to say the least.

I agree on most things but Zion is definitely not guard-sized. 6'6 without shoes is regular height for small forward. How many true 6'6 guards we have in the league? 5%?
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#22 » by bledredwine » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:33 pm

I was one of maybe two posters stating that RJ Barrett May be a better player, but I’m starting to think that this was a terrible prediction.

Zion has enormous potential to dominate, but he’s currently raw and as mentioned, a bit out of shape.

My thoughts on RJ we’re that he has playmaking potential to be a McGrady/Harden type, which is a style more utilized than ever in the league. That said, he’s looking even more raw and inexperienced than Zion.

Regardless, I want both players to fulfill their potential. The more star power this league has in small markets, the better.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#23 » by limbo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:09 pm

70sFan wrote:I agree on most things but Zion is definitely not guard-sized. 6'6 without shoes is regular height for small forward. How many true 6'6 guards we have in the league? 5%?


He's on the smaller-end of the forward spectrum.

RJ Barrett
Klay Thompson
Jaylen Brown
Caris LaVert
Kevin 'Red Velvet' Huerter
Dwayne Bacon
Evan Fournier
Andrew Wiggins

Are all projected to start at SG for their teams and they are 6-6 or higher... Then there's Butler, DeRozan, Middleton, Andre Roberson who are natural guards but will play SF because of fit/talent reasons. So it's really more like 12 guys. Some of them barely didn't make the cutoff like Danny Green. We should also take into account that Zion isn't the lengthiest fella out there. His wingspan is closer to Victor Oladipo and Ricky Rubio than it is to LeBron or Aaron Gordon... forget about all the freaks playing Forward positions like Kawhi, Durant, Giannis, Ingram.

Out of all starting Forwads in the leauge, only Eric Gordon and CJ Miles are smaller than Zion. And both of those guys can shoot.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#24 » by eminence » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:23 pm

If you're not going to be a primary rim-protector height just doesn't matter much. Being able to body guys out of position goes a long way on both ends. Work on stamina/awareness (a rookie who needs to work on his awareness, shocking) and he'll be there.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#25 » by limbo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:39 pm

Height and length matters when you are trying to get your shot off. There's ways to offset the degree by being crafty, having good footwork, using trickery with the dribble, having a high and quick release etc, but Zion still has a lot to work on in these departments. That's why i can see him struggling to score efficiently in the half-court, especially against great defenses.

Defensively, his height and length mean he can never effectively protect the rim or contest shots. But that's ok, since no one expects him to be having Big man level defensive impact anyway.

That being said, i believe he can be a largely positive contributor on defense, especially once he starts getting some experience under his belt. Igoudala was able to be an elite defender in this league for a long time and Zion looks like an oversized version of Iggy.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#26 » by eminence » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:09 pm

I guess I'm not sure the standard we're holding him to here, but I see pretty much 0% chance he's not an efficient medium-high volume scorer. In college his shot distribution was something along the lines of 75/10/15 (rim/mid/3pt) I doubt he can maintain quite that level in the pros, but with his finishing ability (and foul draw rate) that gives him a huge margin with his shot to stay efficient overall (much like Giannis or Barkley in ancient times).
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#27 » by 70sFan » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:49 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:I agree on most things but Zion is definitely not guard-sized. 6'6 without shoes is regular height for small forward. How many true 6'6 guards we have in the league? 5%?


He's on the smaller-end of the forward spectrum.

RJ Barrett
Klay Thompson
Jaylen Brown
Caris LaVert
Kevin 'Red Velvet' Huerter
Dwayne Bacon
Evan Fournier
Andrew Wiggins

Are all projected to start at SG for their teams and they are 6-6 or higher... Then there's Butler, DeRozan, Middleton, Andre Roberson who are natural guards but will play SF because of fit/talent reasons. So it's really more like 12 guys. Some of them barely didn't make the cutoff like Danny Green. We should also take into account that Zion isn't the lengthiest fella out there. His wingspan is closer to Victor Oladipo and Ricky Rubio than it is to LeBron or Aaron Gordon... forget about all the freaks playing Forward positions like Kawhi, Durant, Giannis, Ingram.

Out of all starting Forwads in the leauge, only Eric Gordon and CJ Miles are smaller than Zion. And both of those guys can shoot.


Fournier is below 6'6 without the shoes. I don't know about the rest, but it's likely that at least some of them were also shorter. Danny Green is almost inch shorter than Zion.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#28 » by limbo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Point being Zion's height and length will make it hard for him to be anything other than a perimeter player primarily. I'm absolutely fine with him being a Forward, but he's currently not optimized for an effective perimeter game, that's why i'm skeptical about his impact.

It's still extremely early days to be drawing any conclusions, but the first thing i'd look into is dropping mass. There's no reason the dude should be this bulked up at 6-6. I mean, he carries his weight incredibly well and it helps him absorb contact, but i think trading some off that for speed/quickness is the smarter approach for both short and long term. He'll still be big-boned and regain most of his strength, but the benefits of being quicker will make a far greater impact on his game. It will help him beat defenders off the dribble more consistently, squirm through tighter areas, increase his defensive ability to recover, improve his endurance and put a lesser strain on his body and joints, which is probably the most valuable thing.

Right now, he's too wide to explode by defenders consistently and create off the dribble, which is what he should be doing at 6-6 and with his ability to handle and pass. If the Pelicans don't even trust you with on-ball duties, it's a problem.

Other than that, develop an outside shot and you are good to go. A 260 lbs Zion with an outside shot, and we can start taking about offensive potential. A 280+ lbs Zion with no shot and a subpar game off the dribble... nah, ain't happening.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#29 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:14 pm

bledredwine wrote:I was one of maybe two posters stating that RJ Barrett May be a better player, but I’m starting to think that this was a terrible prediction.



Not Barrett specific, but I've been on record as well as saying I don't think he will have the best career of his draft class. He's really impressive physically but I still have my doubts.

And yes I had my doubts about Steph and Giannis too and looked like an idiot so I'm prepared to look like one with Zion as well.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#30 » by clyde21 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:29 pm

Gooner wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:His body control and handle in combination with his size and athleticism is remarkable. It's why I can't fathom how anyone who watches basketball can look at him as just some raw , unskilled athlete.


He is only 6'6''.


okay? Bron is 6-7 what's your point?
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#31 » by bledredwine » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:40 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I was one of maybe two posters stating that RJ Barrett May be a better player, but I’m starting to think that this was a terrible prediction.



Not Barrett specific, but I've been on record as well as saying I don't think he will have the best career of his draft class. He's really impressive physically but I still have my doubts.

And yes I had my doubts about Steph and Giannis too and looked like an idiot so I'm prepared to look like one with Zion as well.


I hear that. Well, I was convinced that Thomas Robinson would be one of the best bigs in the league and that Doug McDermott would be an all-star.

Surprisingly, Steph is my best prediction as a prospect. I saw him play in a tournament going through college and his deep shooting/quick release blew my mind. That said, he showed all typical signs of a late first round pick. Your opinion was a lot more common and I wouldn’t have bet on it.

Another brilliant prediction was Brandon Ingram becoming the next Kevin Durant. I thought he’d at least be better than Simmons, which in retrospect was stupid.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#32 » by Funcrusher » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:45 pm

limbo wrote:
zimpy27 wrote:How do we see a path for him being a superstar if he isn't the prime playmaker or prime defender?


This is a very good point i've been wrestling with myself, and you can add the fact that he's a weak outside shooter to it. In my view, that puts a ceiling on how good he can be offensively without significant improvements in those areas.

I've been impressed with his off-ball movement, offensive awareness and it's evident he's got a soft touch for finishing around the rim (aided tremendously by his insane athleticism and strength), but if the way he's playing so far in the preseason is any indication of the future, it's hard for me to see him having elite impact when he's not even being used as a catalyst offensively.

I like how Gentry's using him in the halfcourt, though. They have him staying on the weakside waiting for a screen and then just run around the screen and attack the basket with momentum. It's very hard to stop him when he has space to drive into the paint and he can make the smart pass from there if he can't finish himself.

That's basically all he did in the halfcourt vs the Bulls, and some improvised cuts to the basket. Good teams will adjust their defense and take that play away, and shooting 12/13 is an anomaly (also it's preseason vs. the Bulls...). Once that is countered, how many tools does Zion have left? He can't shoot. He can't consistently penetrate from the perimeter with his size and weight (+ defense playing him loose because he can't shoot).He makes smart passes but he's not an elite playmaker, he's not a threat to run pick and rolls. He's not really a post player either. He can bully smaller matchups occasionally, but he can't consistently score from the post due to his size and limited arsenal.

Compared to rookie LeBron. Bron was slimmer which meant he had better motor/stamina, was faster and more nimble, thus a more reliable driving threat. Bron was also taller, which means it's harder to contest his shots (Zion is not only guard-sized, but also has a shot that is slow and has a low release point - dude got blocked like three times in Summer League attempting normal shots). LeBron was a better playmaker (although Zion is also impressive, no doubt). And most importantly, LeBron actually had an outside shot. Granted it was very inconsistent but he could still effectively punish teams with it every other game. Zion doesn't even attempt to shoot if he's not completely open for the most part. LeBron's early shooting woes had a lot to due with poor shot selection, other minor kinks. Zion seems to be closer to needing to reconstruct his entire shooting form than anything else. Also, rookie Bron played in an era where 3-pt shots were still taken in moderation with a grain of salt. The league has a better understanding on how to exploit a weak outside shooter than it did in 2004...

I still believe Zion can be relatively efficient and effective if the Pelicans decide to play run and gun basketball. Defenses in the regular season are much more relaxed and indifferent. There's more transition opportunities where Zion is elite. That being said, it will be interesting to see how much the Pels decide to push the tempo and how the core of Zo/Jrue/Zion/Ingram will play off each other. What a set of characters, lmao... Zion can't shoot, Lonzo can't finish and Ingram can't pass the ball to save his life. Should be entertaining to say the least.

This is kind of an unreasonably high standard your pitting him against, and as eminence said, I really don't see a way he doesn't end up an extremely efficient player offensively on significant volume. And not all that accurate either. On all of those elbow plays there were at least four defenders collapsing the paint on Zion once he caught the ball, he really had hardly any space to exploit, and yet still managed to get all the way to the rim, precisely because of the insane momentum he generates with his mass, not to mention the dexterity he displays at that size.

And honestly, if anything Zion is quicker and more nimble than rookie LeBron, as far as end to end speed LBJ was obviously faster, but in terms of pure burst off the dribble and horizontal athleticism Zion is better imo. So I don't see LeBron as the better driving threat really (outside of having a more advanced handle at the same stage, which definitely matters).

Also think you're underrating his post game a smidge, he's definitely not posting up 4's and 5's in the NBA, but his post footwork in college is something that has severely gone under the rader (he's got a lethal spin move/drop step which is his go-to, but up and unders, hop steps, hook shots are all in his arsenal), and I'd definitely like Gentry to utilize him out of the post on most smaller mismatches.

But, as far as his overall utility offensively, I really think it's simple: what makes him special is that he has more gravity in any one area than anyone not named Giannis or Curry. Montrezl Harrell simply cannot generate the opportunities Zion will be able to generate with his paint gravity, regardless of whether Zion develops his perimeter skills more (which he absolutely should, obviously).
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#33 » by Funcrusher » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:53 pm

limbo wrote:Point being Zion's height and length will make it hard for him to be anything other than a perimeter player primarily. I'm absolutely fine with him being a Forward, but he's currently not optimized for an effective perimeter game, that's why i'm skeptical about his impact.

It's still extremely early days to be drawing any conclusions, but the first thing i'd look into is dropping mass. There's no reason the dude should be this bulked up at 6-6. I mean, he carries his weight incredibly well and it helps him absorb contact, but i think trading some off that for speed/quickness is the smarter approach for both short and long term. He'll still be big-boned and regain most of his strength, but the benefits of being quicker will make a far greater impact on his game. It will help him beat defenders off the dribble more consistently, squirm through tighter areas, increase his defensive ability to recover, improve his endurance and put a lesser strain on his body and joints, which is probably the most valuable thing.

Right now, he's too wide to explode by defenders consistently and create off the dribble, which is what he should be doing at 6-6 and with his ability to handle and pass. If the Pelicans don't even trust you with on-ball duties, it's a problem.

Other than that, develop an outside shot and you are good to go. A 260 lbs Zion with an outside shot, and we can start taking about offensive potential. A 280+ lbs Zion with no shot and a subpar game off the dribble... nah, ain't happening.

Point being Zion's height and length will make it hard for him to be anything other than a perimeter player primarily.


Right now, he's too wide to explode by defenders consistently and create off the dribble


It will help him beat defenders off the dribble more consistently, squirm through tighter areas


None of these things are problems that have materialized to this point. Do you have any concrete examples or evidence, or is this all mere projection?
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#34 » by Funcrusher » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:05 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
bledredwine wrote:I was one of maybe two posters stating that RJ Barrett May be a better player, but I’m starting to think that this was a terrible prediction.



Not Barrett specific, but I've been on record as well as saying I don't think he will have the best career of his draft class. He's really impressive physically but I still have my doubts.

And yes I had my doubts about Steph and Giannis too and looked like an idiot so I'm prepared to look like one with Zion as well.

But Chuck, for the sake of a Luka/Zion rivalry, you must believe in fat D-Rose :)
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#35 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:08 pm

Funcrusher wrote:But Chuck, for the sake of a Luka/Zion rivalry, you must believe in fat D-Rose :)



No need for a rivalry for me. The Duncan/Dirk rivalry was enough. I just want straight up Luka dominance with no peers, thank you very much.

also, please trade Jrue to Dallas, thanks.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#36 » by Funcrusher » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:14 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:But Chuck, for the sake of a Luka/Zion rivalry, you must believe in fat D-Rose :)



No need for a rivalry for me. The Duncan/Dirk rivalry was enough. I just want straight up Luka dominance with no peers, thank you very much.

also, please trade Jrue to Dallas, thanks.

For KP? You got it pal :wink:
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#37 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:16 pm

Funcrusher wrote:For KP? You got it pal :wink:



Well played.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#38 » by clyde21 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:25 pm

limbo wrote:Point being Zion's height and length will make it hard for him to be anything other than a perimeter player primarily. I'm absolutely fine with him being a Forward, but he's currently not optimized for an effective perimeter game, that's why i'm skeptical about his impact.


complete nonsense, he's going to get to the rim at will, and if you still need convincing of that at this point then I'm not sure what discussion can be had here
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#39 » by limbo » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:50 pm

Funcrusher wrote:This is kind of an unreasonably high standard your pitting him against, and as eminence said, I really don't see a way he doesn't end up an extremely efficient player offensively on significant volume. And not all that accurate either. On all of those elbow plays there were at least four defenders collapsing the paint on Zion once he caught the ball, he really had hardly any space to exploit, and yet still managed to get all the way to the rim, precisely because of the insane momentum he generates with his mass, not to mention the dexterity he displays at that size.


I mean, he's being lauded as the best prospect since LeBron. In that sense, i'm trying to see him through a superstar lens, i thought those are the expectations?

Ok, then why is Gentry running weakside screens for him where there's less defensive congestion so he can attack the basket with momentum and space? Why doesn't he have the ball in his hands more? If he can indeed penetrate at will, he should be having the ball more and taking advantage of that, yet he's playing more as a cutter.


And honestly, if anything Zion is quicker and more nimble than rookie LeBron, as far as end to end speed LBJ was obviously faster, but in terms of pure burst off the dribble and horizontal athleticism Zion is better imo. So I don't see LeBron as the better driving threat really (outside of having a more advanced handle at the same stage, which definitely matters).


I sincerely doubt Zion is quicker than young LeBron, much less more nimble. Doesn't even make sense with Zion's weight. I mean, i know Zion is a GOAT-level athlete, but so is LeBron. I guess the only way to know this for sure is to pull up their draft combine measurements in regards to speed. But going off eye test, LeBron seems more agile to me, though Zion is definitely fast.

Also think you're underrating his post game a smidge, he's definitely not posting up 4's and 5's in the NBA, but his post footwork in college is something that has severely gone under the rader (he's got a lethal spin move/drop step which is his go-to, but up and unders, hop steps, hook shots are all in his arsenal), and I'd definitely like Gentry to utilize him out of the post on most smaller mismatches.


He will try to bully smaller/weaker matchups occasionally, but don't expect the Pelicans to actually run offense sets around Zion posting up. It won't happen.

But, as far as his overall utility offensively, I really think it's simple: what makes him special is that he has more gravity in any one area than anyone not named Giannis or Curry. Montrezl Harrell simply cannot generate the opportunities Zion will be able to generate with his paint gravity, regardless of whether Zion develops his perimeter skills more (which he absolutely should, obviously).


He's definitely not going to be Trez Harrell, lol, somebody was speaking outlandish, but saying he'll have more gravity than anyone not named Giannis or Curry is also asinine. Curry's skillset isn't even comparable to Zion. Giannis has enormous gravity because you can't stop him from scoring once he gets to the paint since he's 6-11 with GOAT-level length on top of that. Zion is a midget with short arms. Yes, his athletic package will make up for that to a good enough degree, to the point that he can still be elite, but i'd be careful about having too high of an expectation here... I don't care how unreal you are athletically, height and length are super important in basketball. When you are 6-6, it's easier for everybody to effect your shot.

PS: These are all projections on my part based on what i've observed. Saying these things have yet to materialize in such an extent doesn't mean much when we only have high school and college as evidence. Plenty of players dominated college basketball and couldn't transition to the NBA and vice verse.
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Re: The 2019-2020 Zion Williamson thread 

Post#40 » by Funcrusher » Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:42 am

limbo wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:This is kind of an unreasonably high standard your pitting him against, and as eminence said, I really don't see a way he doesn't end up an extremely efficient player offensively on significant volume. And not all that accurate either. On all of those elbow plays there were at least four defenders collapsing the paint on Zion once he caught the ball, he really had hardly any space to exploit, and yet still managed to get all the way to the rim, precisely because of the insane momentum he generates with his mass, not to mention the dexterity he displays at that size.


I mean, he's being lauded as the best prospect since LeBron. In that sense, i'm trying to see him through a superstar lens, i thought those are the expectations?

Ok, then why is Gentry running weakside screens for him where there's less defensive congestion so he can attack the basket with momentum and space? Why doesn't he have the ball in his hands more? If he can indeed penetrate at will, he should be having the ball more and taking advantage of that, yet he's playing more as a cutter.

Because they don't think he has the handle to initiate at this point, which is fine and not really abnormal at his age, nor a red flag when it's clear he has the foundational skillset as a ballhandler. Has nothing to do with his "mass" making it hard for him to turn the corner on defenders, that's silly and everything he's done in high school, college and even preseason makes that argument seem counter-intuitive. And Zion's not facing less defensive congestion coming off of screens, don't know what you're talking about there.
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limbo wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:And honestly, if anything Zion is quicker and more nimble than rookie LeBron, as far as end to end speed LBJ was obviously faster, but in terms of pure burst off the dribble and horizontal athleticism Zion is better imo. So I don't see LeBron as the better driving threat really (outside of having a more advanced handle at the same stage, which definitely matters).


I sincerely doubt Zion is quicker than young LeBron, much less more nimble. Doesn't even make sense with Zion's weight. I mean, i know Zion is a GOAT-level athlete, but so is LeBron. I guess the only way to know this for sure is to pull up their draft combine measurements in regards to speed. But going off eye test, LeBron seems more agile to me, though Zion is definitely fast.

Nothing makes sense with Zion's weight. But as you acknowledge, he's a GOAT-level athlete, and I'm pretty confident he's quicker off the dribble than young LBJ, and that's not underestimating LeBron's quickness by any stretch.

limbo wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:Also think you're underrating his post game a smidge, he's definitely not posting up 4's and 5's in the NBA, but his post footwork in college is something that has severely gone under the rader (he's got a lethal spin move/drop step which is his go-to, but up and unders, hop steps, hook shots are all in his arsenal), and I'd definitely like Gentry to utilize him out of the post on most smaller mismatches.


He will try to bully smaller/weaker matchups occasionally, but don't expect the Pelicans to actually run offense sets around Zion posting up. It won't happen.

Um, okay, not much substance to this response, don't really see how this refutes anything I said there.

limbo wrote:
Funcrusher wrote:But, as far as his overall utility offensively, I really think it's simple: what makes him special is that he has more gravity in any one area than anyone not named Giannis or Curry. Montrezl Harrell simply cannot generate the opportunities Zion will be able to generate with his paint gravity, regardless of whether Zion develops his perimeter skills more (which he absolutely should, obviously).


He's definitely not going to be Trez Harrell, lol, somebody was speaking outlandish, but saying he'll have more gravity than anyone not named Giannis or Curry is also asinine. Curry's skillset isn't even comparable to Zion. Giannis has enormous gravity because you can't stop him from scoring once he gets to the paint since he's 6-11 with GOAT-level length on top of that. Zion is a midget with short arms. Yes, his athletic package will make up for that to a good enough degree, to the point that he can still be elite, but i'd be careful about having too high of an expectation here... I don't care how unreal you are athletically, height and length are super important in basketball. When you are 6-6, it's easier for everybody to effect your shot.

Yeah, no. If you're only argument against my point is, "he's a midget with short arms," neither of those things being accurate either, then a constructive conversation can't be had here. If lack of length hasn't stopped Zion from scoring in the paint at will to this point, it's not going to start now. Handwaving Zion's athleticism here is arguing in bad faith, the kid has the GOAT-level package of speed + strength, no one is stopping his penetration. Don't know why you even mentioned Curry's skillset here, I was comparing him to Zion based purely on GRAVITY, I'm aware that as a guard Curry is more skilled than Zion :roll:

limbo wrote:PS: These are all projections on my part based on what i've observed. Saying these things have yet to materialize in such an extent doesn't mean much when we only have high school and college as evidence. Plenty of players dominated college basketball and couldn't transition to the NBA and vice verse.

I'm not sure how valid your observations are then if these are the conclusions you've come to.
gh123 wrote:Zion lucky if he gets 18 ppg on decent efficiency. Midget big man is a no-career in NBA. Chuck being the only wonder. Zion is the next Tractor Trailer at best.

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