Bigger legacy boost

Moderators: PaulieWal, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, Clyde Frazier, penbeast0, trex_8063

Bigger legacy boost

1. Karl Malone
30
81%
2. LeBron James
7
19%
3. Tim Duncan
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 37

Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 41,201
And1: 9,189
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Treys are for 'Kicks!...and Steph Curry
   

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#21 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:27 pm

Joao Saraiva wrote:In these scenarios, what would be the bigger legacy boost?

1. Jordan misses the shot in 98 and the Jazz go on to win game 7 at home. Imagine Malone plays to his averages in the 98 finals but goes out with the W. Everything else remains the same for everyone. How big is the legacy boost for Karl Malone? Top 10 ever?

2. LeBron has no meltdown vs Dallas in 11. Everything else remains the same. He wins FMVP and the Heat go on to 3-peat, and then he still goes to Cleveland. Assume he plays as well as he did vs the Bulls in the ECF.

3. Spurs win in 13. Tim Duncan wins 6 championships and they win against the Heat B2B in the finals. Remember he had a tremendous game 6.


I said Malone, but I think LeBron has an argument.

For Malone, it's not just that winning a championship helps cement his MVPs as legitimate. A win like this would let him be seen as the only man to ever really top Jordan. I think it's pretty much a given that Malone gets ranked by most ahead of Olajuwon with that feather in his cap, and many others would put him ahead of guys like Magic & Bird, but more than anything else, he's seen as a different thing in people's minds.

For LeBron, I actually don't think it would help that much for most people because LeBron is already basically just a spot below Jordan, and there's a strong urge in most to hold the flaws in LeBron's career against him compared to the "spotless" resume of Jordan. Remove '11 from the equation, and there's still '09 & '10 to consider.

However for me personally, '11 is a really big deal. I think criticisms of LeBron in '09 are silly, and I tended to interpret his '10 walkabout against the Celtics through the lens of his impending free agency. The '11 finals walkabout meant that I could no longer see '10 as a fluke and had to start taking earnestly what the quirk was in LeBron's brain that led him to be prone to this.

(This means, incidentally, that if '11 hadn't happened, I would still be analyzing LeBron assuming something was a fluke that really wasn't a fluke. That's how alternative histories go. One version of events tends to yield more information than another.)

Had '11 not happened then, I'd probably see LeBron as a guy who basically dominated as consistently as Jordan, and did so in a more sophisticated era where LeBron's talents give him a real edge over Jordan. I'd imagine that either after '16 or '17 I'd already have him over Jordan

Instead, I still have Jordan ahead of him. LeBron can still pass him, but it's still no given.

As for Duncan, I don't think it has a big effect on his legacy. I don't see another title won in that way making him into a serious GOAT contender, and he's already only just below GOAT contender status.
In another world...
Your Longshoremen of Long Beach...

And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
John Stockton
Bobby Jones
Rudy Gobert
Khris Middleton
Connie Hawkins
Otto Porter
Ryan Anderson
parapooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,460
And1: 705
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#22 » by parapooper » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:01 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
For LeBron, I actually don't think it would help that much for most people because LeBron is already basically just a spot below Jordan, and there's a strong urge in most to hold the flaws in LeBron's career against him compared to the "spotless" resume of Jordan. Remove '11 from the equation, and there's still '09 & '10 to consider.

However for me personally, '11 is a really big deal. I think criticisms of LeBron in '09 are silly, and I tended to interpret his '10 walkabout against the Celtics through the lens of his impending free agency. The '11 finals walkabout meant that I could no longer see '10 as a fluke and had to start taking earnestly what the quirk was in LeBron's brain that led him to be prone to this.

(This means, incidentally, that if '11 hadn't happened, I would still be analyzing LeBron assuming something was a fluke that really wasn't a fluke. That's how alternative histories go. One version of events tends to yield more information than another.)

Had '11 not happened then, I'd probably see LeBron as a guy who basically dominated as consistently as Jordan, and did so in a more sophisticated era where LeBron's talents give him a real edge over Jordan. I'd imagine that either after '16 or '17 I'd already have him over Jordan

Instead, I still have Jordan ahead of him. LeBron can still pass him, but it's still no given.


Stop implying 2010 was anything like 2011. LeBron had elbow problems in 2010 since the end of the regular season. In the 2 games with rest he averaged 36.5/7.5/7/2/2/1.5 on 67%TS and an ORtg of 146 for an average game score of 34.3. In the games with only 1 day rest he was much worse - again, he had elbow problems and was even shooting FTs left-handed. Still, overall he was at 27-9-7 for an overall game score of 22. With a bad elbow against a Celtics defense that had absolutely noone else to worry about on his team. He also held Paul Pierce to a game score of 7.3 - probably the worst series of his entire prime.
LeBron's NetRtg was +20.

For comparison, finals MVP Kobe had an average game score of 18.7 against the same Celtics and a NetRtg of -12.
And he was healthy, had teammates the Celtics had to cover and didn't hold any opponent to a historically bad series.
Then in 2011 Kobe played again badly, arguably worse than LeBron. But as everyone knows he had problems with the main joint on one of his extremities during that series. So I would be a complete douche to hold that series against him as a career-defining failure that made his "bad" performance in the 2010 finals not a fluke.

How about MJ being complete trash for the last 3 games of the 96 finals and being saved by Rodman from losing after being up 3-0 with a 72-win team? Did that make his meh performance in 95 (also a worse game score than 2010 LeBron and against a worse defense) when his team didn't get any further than the year before without him not a fluke?
parapooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,460
And1: 705
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#23 » by parapooper » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:31 pm

So the consensus in this thread is that if Karl Malone had played exactly the same in '98 it would have been a huge boost for his legacy.
Classic example of the kind of genius conclusions you get when you rank players based on team achievements.
liamliam1234
Senior
Posts: 692
And1: 646
Joined: Jul 24, 2019

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#24 » by liamliam1234 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:11 pm

1. Legacy is different from personal assessment.
2. Malone closing out a title-deciding game 7 against Jordan is a pretty notable change and not simply a matter of “playing the same”.
parapooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,460
And1: 705
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#25 » by parapooper » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:10 am

liamliam1234 wrote:1. Legacy is different from personal assessment.

Yeah, legacy means mostly - "opinion of the average clueless person" - Why care about that though?

liamliam1234 wrote:2. Malone closing out a title-deciding game 7 against Jordan is a pretty notable change and not simply a matter of “playing the same”.


OP says nothing about Malone closing out game 7 - only difference he mentions is MJ missing, not Malone doing anything different.
OP literally says "Malone plays to his averages in the 98 finals" (which implies an average game 7)

And let's face it, even if Malone played worse than usual - ring-counters would still see it as a huge boost to his legacy if his team won
Cavsfansince84
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,573
And1: 4,313
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#26 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:15 am

If Malone had gotten a ring and beaten MJ while doing it he's probably universally seen as top 15 and as high as top 10 by some people. LeBron just moves up from the top 1-4 range to getting a few more #1 votes. Duncan's legacy wouldn't change that much with the ring in 2013 imo since he was already past his prime.
Cavsfansince84
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,573
And1: 4,313
Joined: Jun 13, 2017
   

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#27 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:22 am

parapooper wrote:So the consensus in this thread is that if Karl Malone had played exactly the same in '98 it would have been a huge boost for his legacy.
Classic example of the kind of genius conclusions you get when you rank players based on team achievements.


I and I think a lot of other bb fans would say that there's something to be said for getting the job done and semi willing your team to victory as their best player. Had Malone lifted his game to where his team won one of those finals against MJ then yes it would have a big impact on how he is perceived today I would say. He's widely seen as a guy who couldn't play at his highest level when his team really needed him to. Which is fine if it happens now and then but just look what Dirk did for his legacy in 2011. Malone with one playoff run like that which ended in a championship would have silenced so many of his critics.
User avatar
toodles23
Analyst
Posts: 3,053
And1: 1,725
Joined: Jun 09, 2010

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#28 » by toodles23 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:54 am

liamliam1234 wrote:1. Legacy is different from personal assessment.
2. Malone closing out a title-deciding game 7 against Jordan is a pretty notable change and not simply a matter of “playing the same”.

Important to note that the Jazz got badly screwed in game 6 by two incorrect shot clock calls that amounted to a 5 point swing in favor of the Bulls - they waived off a Howard Eisley three that should have counted and counted a Ron Harper jumper that shouldn't have. Who knows what would have happened in game 7 but the Jazz certainly would have been favored with Pippen so gimpy, but the Jazz easily could have won with Malone not playing any differently.

https://youtu.be/WgYj1IH3Y2w?t=2383


https://youtu.be/WgYj1IH3Y2w?t=6104

I think the perception of Malone among casuals would be completely different had he won a ring, probably viewed similarly to how Dirk is now. Instead of him being remembered as a choker he would be remembered as the one guy who managed to beat MJ. Lebron would get a solid boost as well but it wouldn't completely transform how casuals view him like it would with Malone. Duncan winning in 2013 would basically change nothing.
ReaLiez
General Board Mock Draft Champ
Posts: 4,723
And1: 3,133
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
Location: Tdot, Windsor
     

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#29 » by ReaLiez » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:54 am

Karl Malone = challenge for GOAT PF, at worst 2nd best PF all time
LBJ - undisputed 2nd all time with a serious case of GOAT...I'd put him at GOAT if he didn't have 2011 on his record and he came back from 3-1 in finals against 73 win GSW
Duncan - further enhance his legacy as GOAT PF - IMO this hurts LBJ more than improve Duncan - at best be would be a top 3-4 player of all time after MJ KAJ and LBJ depending on how the rest of his career would play out
Image
Justice
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 41,201
And1: 9,189
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Treys are for 'Kicks!...and Steph Curry
   

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#30 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:13 am

parapooper wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
For LeBron, I actually don't think it would help that much for most people because LeBron is already basically just a spot below Jordan, and there's a strong urge in most to hold the flaws in LeBron's career against him compared to the "spotless" resume of Jordan. Remove '11 from the equation, and there's still '09 & '10 to consider.

However for me personally, '11 is a really big deal. I think criticisms of LeBron in '09 are silly, and I tended to interpret his '10 walkabout against the Celtics through the lens of his impending free agency. The '11 finals walkabout meant that I could no longer see '10 as a fluke and had to start taking earnestly what the quirk was in LeBron's brain that led him to be prone to this.

(This means, incidentally, that if '11 hadn't happened, I would still be analyzing LeBron assuming something was a fluke that really wasn't a fluke. That's how alternative histories go. One version of events tends to yield more information than another.)

Had '11 not happened then, I'd probably see LeBron as a guy who basically dominated as consistently as Jordan, and did so in a more sophisticated era where LeBron's talents give him a real edge over Jordan. I'd imagine that either after '16 or '17 I'd already have him over Jordan

Instead, I still have Jordan ahead of him. LeBron can still pass him, but it's still no given.


Stop implying 2010 was anything like 2011. LeBron had elbow problems in 2010 since the end of the regular season. In the 2 games with rest he averaged 36.5/7.5/7/2/2/1.5 on 67%TS and an ORtg of 146 for an average game score of 34.3. In the games with only 1 day rest he was much worse - again, he had elbow problems and was even shooting FTs left-handed. Still, overall he was at 27-9-7 for an overall game score of 22. With a bad elbow against a Celtics defense that had absolutely noone else to worry about on his team. He also held Paul Pierce to a game score of 7.3 - probably the worst series of his entire prime.
LeBron's NetRtg was +20.

For comparison, finals MVP Kobe had an average game score of 18.7 against the same Celtics and a NetRtg of -12.
And he was healthy, had teammates the Celtics had to cover and didn't hold any opponent to a historically bad series.
Then in 2011 Kobe played again badly, arguably worse than LeBron. But as everyone knows he had problems with the main joint on one of his extremities during that series. So I would be a complete douche to hold that series against him as a career-defining failure that made his "bad" performance in the 2010 finals not a fluke.

How about MJ being complete trash for the last 3 games of the 96 finals and being saved by Rodman from losing after being up 3-0 with a 72-win team? Did that make his meh performance in 95 (also a worse game score than 2010 LeBron and against a worse defense) when his team didn't get any further than the year before without him not a fluke?


Okay well, I'm not going to get into a debate about 2010 LeBron in a thread about 2011 LeBron.
In another world...
Your Longshoremen of Long Beach...

And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
John Stockton
Bobby Jones
Rudy Gobert
Khris Middleton
Connie Hawkins
Otto Porter
Ryan Anderson
User avatar
Eddy_JukeZ
RealGM
Posts: 13,853
And1: 9,388
Joined: Oct 05, 2013
         

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#31 » by Eddy_JukeZ » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:02 am

It's funny, but you could argue Duncan winning in 2013 would also be a huge dent to Lebron's legacy.
parapooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,460
And1: 705
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#32 » by parapooper » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:41 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
parapooper wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
For LeBron, I actually don't think it would help that much for most people because LeBron is already basically just a spot below Jordan, and there's a strong urge in most to hold the flaws in LeBron's career against him compared to the "spotless" resume of Jordan. Remove '11 from the equation, and there's still '09 & '10 to consider.

However for me personally, '11 is a really big deal. I think criticisms of LeBron in '09 are silly, and I tended to interpret his '10 walkabout against the Celtics through the lens of his impending free agency. The '11 finals walkabout meant that I could no longer see '10 as a fluke and had to start taking earnestly what the quirk was in LeBron's brain that led him to be prone to this.

(This means, incidentally, that if '11 hadn't happened, I would still be analyzing LeBron assuming something was a fluke that really wasn't a fluke. That's how alternative histories go. One version of events tends to yield more information than another.)

Had '11 not happened then, I'd probably see LeBron as a guy who basically dominated as consistently as Jordan, and did so in a more sophisticated era where LeBron's talents give him a real edge over Jordan. I'd imagine that either after '16 or '17 I'd already have him over Jordan

Instead, I still have Jordan ahead of him. LeBron can still pass him, but it's still no given.


Stop implying 2010 was anything like 2011. LeBron had elbow problems in 2010 since the end of the regular season. In the 2 games with rest he averaged 36.5/7.5/7/2/2/1.5 on 67%TS and an ORtg of 146 for an average game score of 34.3. In the games with only 1 day rest he was much worse - again, he had elbow problems and was even shooting FTs left-handed. Still, overall he was at 27-9-7 for an overall game score of 22. With a bad elbow against a Celtics defense that had absolutely noone else to worry about on his team. He also held Paul Pierce to a game score of 7.3 - probably the worst series of his entire prime.
LeBron's NetRtg was +20.

For comparison, finals MVP Kobe had an average game score of 18.7 against the same Celtics and a NetRtg of -12.
And he was healthy, had teammates the Celtics had to cover and didn't hold any opponent to a historically bad series.
Then in 2011 Kobe played again badly, arguably worse than LeBron. But as everyone knows he had problems with the main joint on one of his extremities during that series. So I would be a complete douche to hold that series against him as a career-defining failure that made his "bad" performance in the 2010 finals not a fluke.

How about MJ being complete trash for the last 3 games of the 96 finals and being saved by Rodman from losing after being up 3-0 with a 72-win team? Did that make his meh performance in 95 (also a worse game score than 2010 LeBron and against a worse defense) when his team didn't get any further than the year before without him not a fluke?


Okay well, I'm not going to get into a debate about 2010 LeBron in a thread about 2011 LeBron.


Here is an idea how to keep 2010 LeBron out of threads about 2011 LeBron:
Don't make backhanded, misleading swipes at 2010 LeBron the entire basis of your argument about 2011 LeBron.
AMW27
Senior
Posts: 647
And1: 180
Joined: Jun 03, 2013

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#33 » by AMW27 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:13 pm

This is an interesting thread.

I picked Malone. If he had won a title in 1998 I think he's top 15 all time.

Some may say James winning in 2011 and Duncan winning in 2013 doesn't change their ranking. Maybe that depends on where they're ranked by some. I dont have James as a top 2 or 3 player as of now. Him winning in 2011, I would rank him probably at number at 3 or 4.

Duncan winning in 2013 as stated, effects James career. That means James wouldn't be considered top 3 then with just 2 titles.

I already have Duncan as my number 3 all time. So maybe him winning in 2013 could probably push him up a spot. Yeah he was past his prime. But he was no role player neither. With that title he's the best player on six title teams.

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using RealGM mobile app
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 41,201
And1: 9,189
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Treys are for 'Kicks!...and Steph Curry
   

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#34 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:41 pm

parapooper wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
parapooper wrote:
Stop implying 2010 was anything like 2011. LeBron had elbow problems in 2010 since the end of the regular season. In the 2 games with rest he averaged 36.5/7.5/7/2/2/1.5 on 67%TS and an ORtg of 146 for an average game score of 34.3. In the games with only 1 day rest he was much worse - again, he had elbow problems and was even shooting FTs left-handed. Still, overall he was at 27-9-7 for an overall game score of 22. With a bad elbow against a Celtics defense that had absolutely noone else to worry about on his team. He also held Paul Pierce to a game score of 7.3 - probably the worst series of his entire prime.
LeBron's NetRtg was +20.

For comparison, finals MVP Kobe had an average game score of 18.7 against the same Celtics and a NetRtg of -12.
And he was healthy, had teammates the Celtics had to cover and didn't hold any opponent to a historically bad series.
Then in 2011 Kobe played again badly, arguably worse than LeBron. But as everyone knows he had problems with the main joint on one of his extremities during that series. So I would be a complete douche to hold that series against him as a career-defining failure that made his "bad" performance in the 2010 finals not a fluke.

How about MJ being complete trash for the last 3 games of the 96 finals and being saved by Rodman from losing after being up 3-0 with a 72-win team? Did that make his meh performance in 95 (also a worse game score than 2010 LeBron and against a worse defense) when his team didn't get any further than the year before without him not a fluke?


Okay well, I'm not going to get into a debate about 2010 LeBron in a thread about 2011 LeBron.


Here is an idea how to keep 2010 LeBron out of threads about 2011 LeBron:
Don't make backhanded, misleading swipes at 2010 LeBron the entire basis of your argument about 2011 LeBron.


Okay so:

1) You're the one bringing the emotional charge into this exchange not me. When you say phrases like "misleading swipes" you're making clear you think I have an anti-LeBron agenda. I don't. I'm not a "fan". I have very little emotional attachment to who wins and loses at this point in my life. When a player abandons his team to go to a new team, I'm happy because the novel context will provide greater information gain than another year with the same team. (I'll criticize the player's thinking if I think his decision making was wrong, and I'll certainly note the damage he did in a GOAT context, but in terms of being mad that players are empowered, nah, I'm good.)

2) I didn't make an argument about 2011 with 2010 as the basis. All I did was talk about how I and others would have perceived 2011 differently without 2010, which was important because 2010 has everything to do with why erasing 2011 wouldn't have made that big of a difference in the minds of most fans...of which I pointedly said I was different from.

3) I didn't actually make an argument about 2011 at all really. I didn't say people should think a certain way about 2011, I just said what I thought others concluded-legacy wise about it and then talked about what I saw. It's okay for you to disagree. It's also understandable if you want to ask me more about how I drew the conclusions I did about 2011.

4) I'll say the word "legacy" again. This thread is about legacy, and legacy is about perception. Even the idea that it would not be fair game to talk about 2010 when asked about the legacy of 2011 is absurd because 2010 set the lens through which we were observing LeBron through in 2011. You can talk about how people's assessments were wrong, but you can't say we can't talk about them in a thread that is directly tied to such assessments. This seems to be another case of you making assumptions about what this thread is that show you to not really understand the context you're in despite the fact you're telling others "they're doing it wrong".
In another world...
Your Longshoremen of Long Beach...

And now introducing...
The Song of Westeros...
LeBron James
John Stockton
Bobby Jones
Rudy Gobert
Khris Middleton
Connie Hawkins
Otto Porter
Ryan Anderson
Owly
Veteran
Posts: 2,523
And1: 1,179
Joined: Mar 12, 2010

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#35 » by Owly » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:38 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
parapooper wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Okay well, I'm not going to get into a debate about 2010 LeBron in a thread about 2011 LeBron.


Here is an idea how to keep 2010 LeBron out of threads about 2011 LeBron:
Don't make backhanded, misleading swipes at 2010 LeBron the entire basis of your argument about 2011 LeBron.


Okay so:

1) You're the one bringing the emotional charge into this exchange not me. When you say phrases like "misleading swipes" you're making clear you think I have an anti-LeBron agenda. I don't. I'm not a "fan". I have very little emotional attachment to who wins and loses at this point in my life. When a player abandons his team to go to a new team, I'm happy because the novel context will provide greater information gain than another year with the same team. (I'll criticize the player's thinking if I think his decision making was wrong, and I'll certainly note the damage he did in a GOAT context, but in terms of being mad that players are empowered, nah, I'm good.)

2) I didn't make an argument about 2011 with 2010 as the basis. All I did was talk about how I and others would have perceived 2011 differently without 2010, which was important because 2010 has everything to do with why erasing 2011 wouldn't have made that big of a difference in the minds of most fans...of which I pointedly said I was different from.

3) I didn't actually make an argument about 2011 at all really. I didn't say people should think a certain way about 2011, I just said what I thought others concluded-legacy wise about it and then talked about what I saw. It's okay for you to disagree. It's also understandable if you want to ask me more about how I drew the conclusions I did about 2011.

4) I'll say the word "legacy" again. This thread is about legacy, and legacy is about perception. Even the idea that it would not be fair game to talk about 2010 when asked about the legacy of 2011 is absurd because 2010 set the lens through which we were observing LeBron through in 2011. You can talk about how people's assessments were wrong, but you can't say we can't talk about them in a thread that is directly tied to such assessments. This seems to be another case of you making assumptions about what this thread is that show you to not really understand the context you're in despite the fact you're telling others "they're doing it wrong".

Probably not the place but ...
A LeBron sympathetic view ...

Spoiler:
I could no longer see '10 as a fluke and had to start taking earnestly what the quirk was in LeBron's brain that led him to be prone to this.

(This means, incidentally, that if '11 hadn't happened, I would still be analyzing LeBron assuming something was a fluke that really wasn't a fluke. That's how alternative histories go. One version of events tends to yield more information than another.)


you talked as if LeBron exhibited strong (fundamental?) flaws in 2010 and with a confidence/sense of certainty (maybe somewhat dependent on the interpretation of the ambiguous use of "really" whether as distinct from prior, false impressions or for strong emphasis ... heck either reading conveys certainty - but in any case it's there, in general, i.e. in the matter of fact manner) that isn't uncontroversial. LeBron had a couple of bad shooting games, by the boxscore still did all the other LeBron stuff (get to the line, rebound, assist - activity/effort stuff, unlike -in most cases - crummy distance shooting) ... I haven't rewatched the games ... if you're confident that there were mental issues that's cool, but ... you seemed pretty confident in it (without giving evidence) and I'm not entirely surprised it riled someone (perhaps moreso because of the tone and emotiveness of some "reporting" around LeBron 2010 e.g. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/392410-a-grand-conspiracy-did-lebron-sandbag-celtic-series-intentionally).
parapooper
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,460
And1: 705
Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Re: Bigger legacy boost 

Post#36 » by parapooper » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:44 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
parapooper wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Okay well, I'm not going to get into a debate about 2010 LeBron in a thread about 2011 LeBron.


Here is an idea how to keep 2010 LeBron out of threads about 2011 LeBron:
Don't make backhanded, misleading swipes at 2010 LeBron the entire basis of your argument about 2011 LeBron.


Okay so:

1) You're the one bringing the emotional charge into this exchange not me. When you say phrases like "misleading swipes" you're making clear you think I have an anti-LeBron agenda. I don't. I'm not a "fan". I have very little emotional attachment to who wins and loses at this point in my life. When a player abandons his team to go to a new team, I'm happy because the novel context will provide greater information gain than another year with the same team. (I'll criticize the player's thinking if I think his decision making was wrong, and I'll certainly note the damage he did in a GOAT context, but in terms of being mad that players are empowered, nah, I'm good.)

2) I didn't make an argument about 2011 with 2010 as the basis. All I did was talk about how I and others would have perceived 2011 differently without 2010, which was important because 2010 has everything to do with why erasing 2011 wouldn't have made that big of a difference in the minds of most fans...of which I pointedly said I was different from.

3) I didn't actually make an argument about 2011 at all really. I didn't say people should think a certain way about 2011, I just said what I thought others concluded-legacy wise about it and then talked about what I saw. It's okay for you to disagree. It's also understandable if you want to ask me more about how I drew the conclusions I did about 2011.

4) I'll say the word "legacy" again. This thread is about legacy, and legacy is about perception. Even the idea that it would not be fair game to talk about 2010 when asked about the legacy of 2011 is absurd because 2010 set the lens through which we were observing LeBron through in 2011. You can talk about how people's assessments were wrong, but you can't say we can't talk about them in a thread that is directly tied to such assessments. This seems to be another case of you making assumptions about what this thread is that show you to not really understand the context you're in despite the fact you're telling others "they're doing it wrong".


You implied LeBron had some 2011-like series against the 2010 Celtics as if it was fact - I showed with actual facts he did not.
You spoke of 2011 and 2010 as pretty much the same thing as if that was accepted gospel, and that these 2 similar series indicated a quirk in LeBron's brain - I showed with facts they were not similar, that 2010 wasn't even unusual (for instance MJ and Kobe having consecutive playoff-ending performances arguably worse than 2010 LeBron) and pointed out his elbow issues in 2010 (btw really classy twisting an injury into some brain fault (that strangely never manifested before or after)
Just because the thread has a wishy-washy subject doesn't mean nobody is allowed to point out the falsehoods and distortions you sprinkle.

Regarding the wall of text you wrote addressing one off-hand sentence of mine while completely ignoring the actual facts I posted:
You seem to be desperately clinging to the notion that opinions of contemporaries (no matter how baseless and misinformed) determine legacies while actual facts don't matter (and as with LeBron you again treat this highly questionable opinion of yours as if it was commonly accepted fact). I would disagree completely on that even if legacy was just "guy on the street opinion", which it isn't.

Return to Player Comparisons